Thread Number: 5978
Vacuum cleaner horsepower question 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 66849   4/18/2009 at 17:51 (5,487 days old) by animasinsulin ()        

Why is it that in the 80's vacuum makers stopped ratings with horsepower to amps. I had a Fantom that has 12 amps but it is weak....Bill in Az....

Post# 66868 , Reply# 1   4/18/2009 at 18:31 (5,487 days old) by tristar ()        

Because the Horsepower rating was total Bull S&*t. Electrically one Horsepower is equal to 746 watts. You can't get 4.3 HP out of a 115V plug in the US! That would be a 3200W machine!!! In other words, 26 amps.

The manufacturers prey on the ignorance of the buyers thinking that they'll associate amperage with vacuum performance. If it has 12 amps, it MUST be powerful right?

Wrong.....I can think of 4 PRIME examples where amps don't clean better:

1: TriStar CXL (8.7 amp suction motor)
2: Sanitaire (7 amp, 840W motor)
3: Kirby (6 amp classic, 7 amp Generation motor)
4: Royal Upright (Most powerful I own is a 6 amp.....I can't even imagine one of the 9 or 10 amp ones).

And of course the famous argument for amps NOT cleaning: Vintage Hoovers. Take the 700 for example.....1.8 amp motor and it'll probably outclean 90% of the vacuums on the market today.

Amps don't clean. Horsepower doesn't clean. Airflow + agitation cleans.

Post# 66878 , Reply# 2   4/18/2009 at 18:50 (5,487 days old) by vintagehoover ()        

Watts/amps tell you nothing but how much electricity you're wasting on a task which could be achieved using much less!

The machines Eric has given as examples clearly demonstrate the craziness of these high-power vacs - we have cleaners which consume up to 2600w over here! And if you compare their air-watt ratings with those of much lower powered cleaners, you can see how little difference the extra energy consumption makes to the cleaner's ability to perform. Far more important are the simplicity and width of air ducts, design of brush-roll, surface area of bags, resistance of filters etc.

These high-rated motors have been in vogue for a while, but many manufacturers seem to be making a concious effort to lower the energy consumption of their machines now. Perhaps to improve reliability, perhaps as part of an effort to 'be green'.

Post# 66882 , Reply# 3   4/18/2009 at 19:15 (5,487 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
My Royal

 Mine and Sara's Royals have the 9 amps. WAY TO STRONG!!! It sticks to the floor like glue and is way TOO loud. But it does clean like a dream....Bill in Az.... PS also use it on mattresses like on the floor instead....Bill in Az...

Post# 66885 , Reply# 4   4/18/2009 at 19:32 (5,487 days old) by jdinstl ()        
This is a subject that always gets me...

 ...because in the early days, I fell for the more is better numbers as well.

I have 3 Royals of the 6 amp variety. They are not vacuums, they are Urban Dirt Assault Machines. A 9 or 10 amp Royal? That's scary. The government should mandate a license to own and operate one of those. Geeze, that would not only suck up all my cheap carpeting, but the nails out of the subfloor!

And you're right about the sound. But when you need to bring the big guns out on the dirt, there's no better choice.

Post# 66899 , Reply# 5   4/18/2009 at 20:12 (5,486 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
My SK

 My new Silver King is 7.5 amps and when empty the machine moves all over bare floor since the exhaust blows straight back.Most powerful vac. I've ever used. Just wish I knew the HP.....Bill in Az....

Post# 66903 , Reply# 6   4/18/2009 at 20:19 (5,486 days old) by tristar ()        

Find the wattage (120v x nameplate amperage) and divide it by 746. As a clue, the most powerful motor you can possibly plug into a 120V household socket is a 2 horse motor on a 15 amp outlet.

So let's do the math: 120v x 7.5A = 900w

900w/746= 1.2 HP

Clear as mud? :-)

Post# 66905 , Reply# 7   4/18/2009 at 20:24 (5,486 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
WOW

 Thanks soo much Eric!!! Im not good at math whatsoever, never have been and probably
never will but I have other talents thank gawd!! Thanks again.....Bill in Az.....

Post# 66908 , Reply# 8   4/18/2009 at 20:29 (5,486 days old) by kirbyclassiciii (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
My 1979 Wards Power II Canister ...

 kirbyclassiciii's profile picture
has a 3 peak HP rating, but uses only 10 amps, which translates as 1200 watts on 120V current.

Actual physical horsepower of this unit would be 1.6 HP after dividing the wattage by 745.7. But it would have the equivalent of a 3 HP motor.

~Ben

Post# 66909 , Reply# 9   4/18/2009 at 20:35 (5,486 days old) by tristar ()        

It's a 1.6 HP motor.......HOW is that equivalent to a 3 HP motor? Horsepower is Horsepower. There's not different "levels" of horsepower. Peak horsepower means precisely nothing. It's about like saying your car has 120 horsepower, but it's "equivalent" to a 300 HP car! Yeah right.....

Post# 66912 , Reply# 10   4/18/2009 at 20:44 (5,486 days old) by hoover_elite_20 ()        
Heh

 My Shop vac claims to have 6.5 hp.
That translates to more than 40 amps!
I smell some bull s***!

Post# 66913 , Reply# 11   4/18/2009 at 20:46 (5,486 days old) by hoover_elite_20 ()        
Though it must use alot of power

 because sometimes if I don't turn off some extra things in the house I'll blow a curcuit! Thats a lot if power!

Post# 66915 , Reply# 12   4/18/2009 at 20:50 (5,486 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
Kirby Yahoo group

 Some guy in this group said that the latest Kirby is a 1.5 HP. How does he know this???.....Bill in Az....

Post# 66916 , Reply# 13   4/18/2009 at 20:50 (5,486 days old) by hoover_elite_20 ()        
Another nail in the coffin...

 This thing is supposed to have 1 hp. Somehow I don't belive my shop vac or any other vac will have more than six times the horsepower of this massive 6 foot tall woodshop vacuum!

Post# 66950 , Reply# 14   4/18/2009 at 22:45 (5,486 days old) by kirbyotronic ()        

You want horsepower? Here's 507 of it. ;)

~Alex

Post# 66951 , Reply# 15   4/18/2009 at 22:53 (5,486 days old) by vintageroyal611 ()        

That is a really nice car.

Post# 66953 , Reply# 16   4/18/2009 at 23:09 (5,486 days old) by brandon_w_t ()        
Here is

 around 2x that bmw. 1004 horsepower. 2 keys to start- one at 554 hp- 2nd key under seat to unlesh 1004 hp.

Post# 66954 , Reply# 17   4/18/2009 at 23:33 (5,486 days old) by kirbyotronic ()        

Wow, we just threw this thread off topic. ;)

I still prefer Bavarian Motor Works, or you could say Best Motor Works! After all, it's a full sized family luxury sedan that goes like (you know what) off a shovel. I predict the next generation will be "fugly", just take a look at that new 7 series, talk about gross.

~Alex

Post# 66960 , Reply# 18   4/18/2009 at 23:49 (5,486 days old) by brandon_w_t ()        
lol

 I dream of a BMW. My uncle had a 1989 BMW 750il V12, supercharged (!!!) with turbos and what not on it. New exhaust.

Man that thing was a beast. Well until he hit a patch of Ice in (yes) New mexico in April.

That thing would eat any other car on the road. XD I loved it. So fast. He almost considered taking it to germany to drive on the autobahn.


well we should get back to vacuums and HP. Any vacuum with 1 or more HP is a monster.

Post# 66963 , Reply# 19   4/18/2009 at 23:57 (5,486 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)        

aeoliandave's profile picture
Way way off thread but cars like these are far more automobile than the majority need, or could use properly. If one has the cash price then by all means, indulge. :-) Lovely to look at, pose beside and sit in. That's why I go to the new & vintage Car Shows and Auto Museums where I find them across the nation. You get to look, touch and even sometimes sit in them...without the onerous responsibility of ownership and car payments.

Quite content in my 11 year old sleek & economical boat towing, vacuum hauling 175 HP Subaru Legacy GT Limited wagon and will be purchasing an off lease 2008 or 09 Black Obsidian or Newport Blue Legacy 2.5 GT Limited wagon in 2011.

Dave

Post# 66964 , Reply# 20   4/19/2009 at 00:12 (5,486 days old) by kirbyotronic ()        

No, the ///M5 is still very practical, with a spacious trunk for vacuum hauls. And it's under $100k, most cars over that are (most of the time) just "Loogit meeeee!!!!" cars. I could care less about a status symbol such as a car, all I want is performance, comfort, luxury, sporty, and something that is still practical.

~Alex

Post# 66965 , Reply# 21   4/19/2009 at 00:31 (5,486 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I have a couple of the 10A Royals-older US built machines.their power isn't much more than the 7A ones-the dealer I bought them from dropped the 10A models from his stock when I showed him the 10A one didn't clean any better than the 7A models-and the 7A models are much quieter!.At present I have the Vita-mix "XL" 1.5Gallon blender-VM boasts a motor power of 4.2Hp for this machine-something doesn't add up-yes the blender is super powerful-probably the most powerful tabletop blender you can get.The 4.2Hp would be PEAK rating derived in a labortory.-not in typical use.Same with a vacuum cleanre motor-and a car motors for that matter.HP is cars is little meaning to me and others for the most part.You can move a human being with a vehicle equipped with a motor of LESS than 1/2 HP!Granted not as fast as the 1000hp car-but still MOVED.At work we have a 2700HP Cat generator-1.8MW cont. power and 2.2MW PK.The engine is 16 cylinder and just like on a locomotive-Cat even uses an engine model similar to the 3816(Gen engine we have)and supplies them to EMD locomotive division.Oh for the HP fanatics-my hybrid car has a 265Hp gas motor and a 130Hp electric one.More than enough to move me around.And remember those high HP car motors need----GAS!lots of it!!-the gen motor described earlier at my workplace-requires over 400G of deisel fuel pr hr of operation!glad I don't have to pay for it!There are two 7500g tanks that supply fuel to that MG set.

Post# 66966 , Reply# 22   4/19/2009 at 01:28 (5,486 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
Bledtec?

 How would that blender compair to the Blentec blender. Look up willitblend.com.....Bill in Az....

Post# 66968 , Reply# 23   4/19/2009 at 03:27 (5,486 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I have some Blendtec blenders too-a 20A Blendtec "Titan"-the new VM "XL" machine is 15A.the VM machine definlity has more torque.The motor is belted to the blade drive.the motor sits behind the container-remember the belt drive GE blenders on another thread?the VM XL is sort of like the GE machine but on steriods.the motor base weighs over 30pounds-the mass of a large KA mixer.In peaking thru the vent slots under the machine-you see a multigoove Kevlar belt going from the motor shaft pulley to the blender container pulley-and these are machine METAL pulleys.the Kevlar belt is sort of like what is on Riccar Brilliance,Radiance perm belt machines-same with Sebo.I have also dealt with these belts in power tools-belt sanders.small table saws.The Kevlar belts are tough.Also they are used on some DeWalt miter saws where the motor is behind the blade.Also Partner gas powered cutoff and rescue saws use these Kevlar belts.They are all around us.First time I saw one in a blender.I would think the VM XL would be more powerful than the Blendtec blender.
The "vacuum" shown in one of the pictures is a Shop-fox dust collector.This is used to collect sawdust, wood shavings, and chips from woodworking machines such as saws,planers,routers,etc.It is not intended to be used as a vacuum cleaner.The hose is 4"to 6" diameter on these machines-the Dust collectors have low suction pressure-but high CFM.The machine shown would probably be around 1200CFM.It is meant for a home work shop-like up to two machines.Larger ones use Cyclones-like a Dyson vacuum cleaner for commercial shops that have several woodworking machines going at once-and would have 5-15Hp motors.And on the workshop dust collector it has an induction motor-not a universal ones like vacuum cleaners have-and universal motors can have higher peak HP-again unusable ratings derived in the lab.to get those peak ratings-the motor is probably destroyed.-burnt out.
Oh yes-maybe VM should have a version of "WillitBlend" starring the XL blender.Would be interesting.Would think the XL could smash up anything put in it-don't wish to try that with mine.

Post# 66977 , Reply# 24   4/19/2009 at 05:45 (5,486 days old) by jdinstl ()        
Hmmmm...

 tolivac said "You can move a human being with a vehicle equipped with a motor of LESS than 1/2 HP!"

You ain't met my sister-in-law.

That CAT 2700hp 16 cylinder you speak of might get her to budge, however...

Post# 67037 , Reply# 25   4/19/2009 at 13:46 (5,486 days old) by tristar ()        
OMG....

 You owe me a keyboard John! I just spit rootbeer everywhere laughing when I read your last post!

Post# 67046 , Reply# 26   4/19/2009 at 14:43 (5,486 days old) by brandon_w_t ()        
well...

 most central vacuums do not even have 1 hp. Maybe for a house larger than 5000 square feet, but for the average central, even from top companies like MD, they have around 20 amps.

Post# 67129 , Reply# 27   4/19/2009 at 21:21 (5,485 days old) by tristar ()        

1 HP = 746 watts. My Sanitaire with it's 7 amp motor (840w) is more than 1 HP.

Post# 67140 , Reply# 28   4/19/2009 at 21:55 (5,485 days old) by sireluxomatic ()        

Aside from the performance and efficiency issues of newer hyper-powered vacuums, there's also the consideration that older vacuums are, in a lot of cases, much more pleasant to use on almost every basis. My collection is stored at my folks' home, and I also have an Electrolux Epic 6500 that they use as their regular vacuum. Whenever I'm home and cleaning, I almost never use it. Instead, I turn to one of my old Luxes, with the easier-on-the-ears motor, the easier to use wand and hose handle setup, and the easier-on-the-eyes color and styling.

Post# 67156 , Reply# 29   4/20/2009 at 05:39 (5,485 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

In the formula for figuring motor power-you can't just simply go by what wattage or amperage the motor DRAWS from the line.say if you have a motor that draws 7A from the line-that would be 840W-In real life that motor would be 3/4 to 1 hp if you deduct the losses.for most universal motor-about 10-25%.Some central vac units have two motors-they can be in series for more suction pressure-or parallel for more CFM-air systems of the motors-NOT electrical.electrical they would be parallel.If you have a 15A 120V universal motor-that would be about 2.25Hp average power-for an induction-1.5hp.such as for my XL blender-the motor could delivor 2.25HP average.for most of what I do it would be loaded down to much less than that.Most universal motors are loaded to far less than their ratings.thats good-becuase unversal motors can overheat quickly.no large frame or core to absorb heat like on induction motors.And the armature windings overheat quickly on universal motors-harder to cool- the armature fan may not remove the heat fast enough.

Post# 67176 , Reply# 30   4/20/2009 at 09:01 (5,485 days old) by tristar ()        

You're partially right.......

746 watts per HP is assuming a perfect 100% efficiency. I think we all know that nothing is 100% efficient. The watts/HP conversion is a law of physics. It's a known fact that it takes at least 746 watts (mechanical or electrical) to equal 1 Horsepower.

In a US home, the maximum wattage an appliance should draw on a single 120V outlet is 1500w (although you see hairdryers at 1875w which is literally 15 amps!). At 1500w, the maximum horsepower you can develop (for ANY motor and assuming 100% efficiency) is 2.01 HP.

Mind you a motor is rated at full load. If the motor isn't fully loaded, it will run faster and actually draw less current (due to being more in sync with the AC sine wave). Less current at a given voltage means less wattage being drawn. Less wattage means less horsepower.

It's a rule of science and physics that you simply cannot draw more than 2.01 horsepower MAXIMUM (and assuming you're in a perfect world) from a residential 120V outlet.

Appliances that draw more than 1500w from an outlet are actually in violation of many fire protection laws. The accepted maximum for any circuit is a draw of about 80% of the circuit's capacity by any one appliance.

Assuming a nominal voltage of 120v, that means 1440w as a maximum. That's why the biggest vacuum motors you see in the US are 12.5 amps to comply with fire protection codes.

Resistance appliances are a little different.....as the voltage falls, so does their current draw. That's why they can get away with the 1875w. As the voltage drops in the wiring in the house under load, the voltage falls in the appliance reducing the wattage load. Sort of a self-balancing thing.

Inductive devices like motors however, will draw more current as the voltage falls. They'll still be the same wattage, but it's the current rise that does damage to wiring and blows fuses.

So no.....in the US on a 120V circuit, your blender doesn't produce 2.25 HP. It physically can't produce more than 2.01 HP absolute maximum on a 15 amp plug. Assuming 90% efficiency it can't develop more than 1.8 HP.

If you were lucky enough to have a 20 amp circuit (which appliances rated for a 20A circuit must explicitly have a tag on the plug saying so with large warning letters) then the maximum you can develop (in theory) is 3.21 HP. Assuming 90% efficiency again, the maximum you can actually make is 2.89 HP. That's assuming you have that circuit fully loaded. If the appliance follows rating guidelines and only loads to 80% of the circuit, you can't get more than 2.6 HP out of it absolute maximum at 90% efficiency.

Rules of physics.....

Turn the machine over and read the nameplate. Multiply 120v times amps and it'll give you the wattage. Divide that by 746 and you'll be greeted with the absolute maximum power that machine could possibly produce (if it were 100% efficient). If you want a more realistic answer of it's horsepower rating multiply your theoretical result by .85 or .9. THAT is your actual peak horsepower. NOT what the manufacturer "claims" it to be.

Post# 67257 , Reply# 31   4/21/2009 at 04:59 (5,484 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I also have a Blendtec "Titan" blender-the manufacturer rates it a 20A 120V-blendtec DOES NOT give a HP rating on this-thats just as well-on universal motors ratings can be slanted-the peak ratings are derived in the motor builders test lab-the motor or engine under test is connected mechanically to a dynamic dynameter-a form of generator that can convertt the motors output to electrical energy-which thru the formula is converted to HP-some dynameters can do the conversion.the dynometer can also "Load" the motor so you can see how much force the motor can produce to overcome the load.-this can give you "Peak"HP-Remmber the motor under test is connected to a supply that can give the power the motor has to have to overcome the load-not a standard 20A or 15A 120V circuit.and yes the motor will probably burn out to give this peak rating.
Anyway on the Blendtec Titan-the machine has a 20A 120V NEMA plug so it can only be plugged into a 20A circuit.And of course remmber most motors ARE NOT loaded to their absolute manufactuers ratings in normal use.the VM blender with the 15A motor would be 1800W.In lab tests of course would be loaded to more than that.like their claim of 4.2Hp-thats 3133.2 watts.that would be the max load that motor could handle.If I tried that with the 15A circuit-of course the breaker or fuse would trip.It should trip if I loaded the motor to 1800W.For motors the codes are slanted.The codes apply more to heating type appliances.I have another 15A 120V motor-its on a Tornado Wet Dry vacuum-they rate the motor as 2.25Hp.Thats 1678.5W.I know that motor isn't loaded to 15A either-I did run another vacuum while the Tornado was going-no tripped breakers.Oh yes-when I worked at the tool supply-repair place someone brought in a block and brick saw that had a 2Hp120V induction motor.It ran off a standard 15A circuit.The motor had both a start cap and a run cap-the motor was blowing fuses when it got up to speed-tried another stat cap-not it-the run cap was bad!-replaced and the machine ran fine-you had to run this on a circuit by itself or the breaker would trip-esp while cutting.Since the motor had a run cap this brought its current down to 15A 120V.Usually for an induction motor-1.5Hp is the largest non corrected motor you can run from a 15A 120V line.these motors are found on contractor and home type table saws.these motors are right at 13A-15A 120V.also 3hp router motors(universal) are made to run from a 120V 15A line.Core drill motors have 20A plugs so they can run only from a 20A circuit.The core drill machine needs two 20A circuits to run-one for the drill motor-the other for the vacuum pump motor to secure the base and the water pump motor to pump water to and from the diamond core drill bit.electricians and plumbers like these for drilling holes in concrete floors for pipes and conduits.Milwaukee Tools and Black and Decker make these machines.


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