Thread Number: 44892  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Why is it taking Kirby so long
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Post# 466015   9/10/2023 at 17:48 by Kirbyg6 (York)        

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Why is taking them so long to launch a new model I know they usually bring one out every three years or so but itís been nearly 5 years or over to bring one out I know the sentria had a long run but usually when they bring out a second version of the same model it takes them a year or two before the next one comes out I know people get annoyed when this gets asked but surely they must have a new out soon

Post# 466019 , Reply# 1   9/10/2023 at 19:36 by juju93 (South Georgia)        
good question

I like to know the answer myself. I do think that society is way overdue for a new model. I think several factors play into why they haven't release a new model. The first being the covid pandemic and most people being either out of work or not allowing people, such as in home sales people, into their homes and sell them an home cleaning system that is almost 2k, well now its well over 2k. The next thing is the sale of the scott fetzer company selling kirby off to right lane industies, who from what I heard doesn't focus on inavations and improvements. The 3rd reason why they haven't launched a new system is because of inflation and the cost of everything rising. In fact the cost of the avalir 2 and the various package offers on kirby's site have gone up too. Which if their gonna increase the cost of the system they should strongly consider coming out with a new one.

I also think maybe they'll wait till next year, 2024, which is the 90th anniversary of when kirby's name started to appear on his machines. Lets keep in mind that the kirby name and whats considered the first generation began in 1935 and went till 1970. So maybe thats when they plan to launch a new kirby, let alone a new platform. In a way it makes since because by then itll be 6 years of the avalir 2, which would be kirby's second longest running system besides the original sentria, which also ran for 6 years.

Maybe kirby just doesn't have anything and the avalir 2 is gonna be the last of kirby's till the end of time, which is probably not the case. Another thing is maybe they've been prototyping so many different designs that would work for the modern day consumer. Like me personally having grown up with the g-series wouldn't want to have it as an adult. I say this because I have solely flooring in my home and using any kirby, reguardly of what year its from or whatever generation it is, isn't ideal to use on hard surface floors. I say that because the kirby is loud and unbareable to use on hard surface floors. So I hope they've worked on the acoustics of the machine. Another issue with kirby is the weight and the bulkiness when using various cleaning modes. The shampoo system isn't ideal and its to bulky to use and it doesn't extract the stain completely out. The zipbrush is a joke of a tool because you still have to clean it when using it.

I just hope something happens soon because we've had the same system for over 5.5 year with the same face plate for 17 years (reference too looking like a sentria) on a platform that weve had for almost 34 years.


Post# 466027 , Reply# 2   9/10/2023 at 20:51 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
I

lesinutah's profile picture
Know what's happening. There trying to figure a color scheme. There probably trying to make parts interchangeable with the avalirs.
Avalir 3 ultimate or legacy aka avalir 3.0


Post# 466038 , Reply# 3   9/10/2023 at 22:17 by juju93 (South Georgia)        

Avalir 2 wasn't even a real color scheme changed. All they really did was switch out the red accents with blue and went from a black outter handle to a blue one and also went from the chrome style belt lifter that theyve been using since 2006 to a black plastic version that they've used before. They didn't even change the pattern scheme on avalir 2.

I kind of also believe with the lack of pattern and color scheme changes done to avalir 2 that maybe they intended it to be a short run system till they launch something with a new pattern and color scheme. Maybe the next pattern and color scheme was saved for something better. I just hope the next system is a something that will be worth it. I do hope kirby is working on addressing our concerns and issues with its current platform.

I also wanna know when and how they'll launch this new system and what marketing strategies they'll use to promote it. How did they promote and announce the G3 back in 1990? One thing I do hope they bring back is the dvd video owners manual, but just post it on youtube. I mean these short video clips posted on youtube are a joke. They don't neccessarily demonstrate the system being used in a home setting.


Post# 466040 , Reply# 4   9/10/2023 at 22:41 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
There

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Is a YouTuber kirby enthusiast who does every type of video you can think of for kirbys'.
I'd like a different kirby but very highly unlikely.
With the new ownership trying to force out avalir 2's means they're trying to liquidate inventory and have cash to do something. Having a bypass motor on a kirby with a hose built in instead of disassembling the vacuum would be nice.
They could even go high end Bagless and have a dump bin instead of a bag. Idk I'd do the dump bin idea but change would be good.


Post# 466045 , Reply# 5   9/10/2023 at 23:58 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

If Kirby goes bagless---COUNT ME OUT-WON'T BUY!!!!!!It would be sad if Kirby joins the other bagless dreck out there.STICK WITH THE DISPOSABLE BAGS,PLEASE!Bypass is less efficient-and the non bypass Kirbys do the job with HALF the power draw compared to a bypass design.It would seem that Right Lane Industries wants the Kirby to die.Oh yes I HATE hose on board machines--too clunky and awkward,and makes the vacuum even heavier!If this was done you will need your tractor to push-pull it and your forklift to pick the machine up!

Post# 466047 , Reply# 6   9/11/2023 at 00:07 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
Maybe not a bypass but hose maybe something to slide over motor shaft and connect on a port on the nozzle or something. I know kirbys hose is amazing but disassembling the vacuum to use the hose is a major turn off. Switch attach done would be ideal.
Maybe an even more efficient brushless motor.


Post# 466048 , Reply# 7   9/11/2023 at 02:03 by Kirbyg6 (York)        

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I hope they arenít working on a avalir 3 but making something that is more user friendly more convenient and less noisy

Post# 466061 , Reply# 8   9/11/2023 at 11:25 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

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I just reached out to the Consumer Relations Manager at Kirby. Right now there isn't a new model planned to be released anytime soon. The design and engineering team are still working to develop a Kirby that's supposed to be proven overall better than it's predecessor. Also, Kirby had been busy completing the transition ever since Scott & Fetzer sold them off. And they've been mostly focusing on their marketing. Kirby did a one point create a whole new design that was going to replace the Sentria but it got much more complicated as they couldn't get it working right and it supposedly wasn't as good or better than the Sentria.

Post# 466065 , Reply# 9   9/11/2023 at 11:42 by kloveland (Tulsa)        

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I seriously doubt Kirby is going bagless! The VCCC visited Kirby in 2014. One of the higher up employees told the club that Kirby would not come out with a newer model that scarifies cleaning ability. He also said that customers expect performance and a certain sound out of their machines (think of a higher end car).

With that being said. I do not foresee Kirby coming out with a bypass upright unless it outperforms the current model.

The truth is nobody except Kirby knows. For years (and I mean years) I've seen postings on here from other collectors who claim to know inside information. Most of the time these individuals are wrong! And post for attention (my guess) misleading others into believing them (again for attention).

Kirby keeps their new models heavily guarded. In 2008, I believe this was the big Hoover convention in Ohio (before my time) another group went to Kirby and one of our members recorded video from Kirby's testing department and leaked it (prototypes for the hard floor washer). This did not go over well. In 2014 we literally had two Kirby employees follow us in every line to make sure that we were not taking pictures or video. I imagine Kirby is stricter now than they were then. When I read that someone on this site has information on a new model. I take it with a grain of salt.


Post# 466071 , Reply# 10   9/11/2023 at 12:11 by Kirbyg6 (York)        

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Itís a shame Kirby doesnít show any prototypes being made or testing videos I know they showed it in the G3 story but thatís all thatís why I like Dyson because they actually show you the process I just wish Kirby was like that

Post# 466074 , Reply# 11   9/11/2023 at 15:43 by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)        
Kenny is correct

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When we all visited Kirby the last time, they stood on the sidewalk until the last VCCC car left the property.   They were also reluctant to host us initially,  but, it was because someone contacted them, badmouthing us as a whole.  It didn't work, however.  They were very gracious to us, including providing lunch at the "Kirby Kafe".


Post# 466077 , Reply# 12   9/11/2023 at 18:44 by juju93 (South Georgia)        

I'm sure kirby will probably launch something new someday and I'm sure they're well aware of the issues that consumers want adressed. I'm just curious to when they will launch a new system / platform and how long the research and development went into it. They've milked the sentria/avalir systems for way to long.

Post# 466080 , Reply# 13   9/11/2023 at 19:32 by human (Pines of Carolina)        

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I'd have to agree that I would have no interest whatsoever in a bagless Kirby with a built-in hose. The appeal to a Kirby for me is the things are built the way stuff used to be built; that is, out of metal with high quality craftsmanship and attention to detail. They're not meant to be used for a couple of years and left at the curb as landfill fodder; they're meant to last for decades, which is both a blessing and a curse for Kirby, as their biggest competition is themselves in the second-hand market. Kirbys in decent shape show up in thrift stores around here fairly regularly for $20-$30 without accessories and closer to $50 with a full set of accessories. Why would anybody in their right mind pay 40 times that much for the latest color scheme? I'm sure Right Lane is still figuring out their business model for Kirby, a model that hopefully no longer includes door-to-door sales thugs.

Post# 466084 , Reply# 14   9/11/2023 at 20:53 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
The

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Shut off airflow to nozzle and have a hose port on top of the nozzle would be an option for a quick connect hose.
They should make a few versions. The high end would be a version similar to current version maybe lose the transmission.
Then they could make a cannister/backpack version. The backpack/cannister could make it a clean air machine backpack/cannister would be ideal for the commercial market.
Then a basic vacuum similar to the old 13" nozzle kirbys. If they could get a 7 amp motor vacuum under 15 lbs would put supralites/ orecks and other lightweight vacuums on notice.
Then a battery powered vacuum similar to 15 pound version but no cord.
Then d2d sales and sell them in vacuum shops or Costcos.
This is a dream because 4 different versions of vacuums coming from a company that has had 2 (janitronic/American Lincoln) at one time. They basically have 1 model and that's it.


Post# 466091 , Reply# 15   9/12/2023 at 01:08 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I would have no desire or interest in a "backpack" Kirby-HORRIBLE!!!Better to have canisters that stay on the floor.Does Kirby still own the Douglas line of canisters-they could market a cleaning team.The canister for bare floor and above floor work.The upright for carpets.Most homes have both.The smaller areas in a home make a backpack VERY awkward.Too many "bump into tragedies!"

Post# 466104 , Reply# 16   9/12/2023 at 12:31 by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell )        

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Every so many months there's a rumor of a new Kirby model and everybody's speculates all sorts of nonsense.

We all know they're just going to change the color again and maybe a couple other cosmetic changes and leave it at that.

Why is it taking so long ? Well they just got new ownership recently, I'm sure they're still sorting that out internally.


Post# 466105 , Reply# 17   9/12/2023 at 12:32 by juju93 (South Georgia)        

I doubt kirby will come out with a couple of different models at the same time. They, like a lot of other high end companies, will come out with one model that will be the main focus in terms of selling, untill they come out with something new. Its like what rexair did with transitioning from the e2 black to srx. They had the E2 Black for about 8 years and then announce the SRX, but they continued to sell the e2 black to clear out the inventory of e2 blacks that way they can make room for the SRX inventory. I just hope whatever kirby is working on will be worth the wait, because sentria 4 (avalir 2) is just over kill at this point. I also do hope when they launch a new system/ platform, that they innovate their optional accessories and standard attachments, because some of them are quite gimmicky. I say that because when they launch the multi-surface shampoo system, I thought to myself I'm still going to need a mop to get into hard to reach areas and also the machine is still wide and bulky and most importantly, loud and unbareable, espescially on hard surface floors.

Post# 466123 , Reply# 18   9/12/2023 at 21:39 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Woa

lesinutah's profile picture
It's to spark interest.
A backpack kirby would be amazing. Have you seen how many proteam commercial vacuums are out there. I was aiming for open minded commercial customers.
Toluvac maybe get you a newer kirby and spray paint it. It will have everything you love and you can even name it.


Post# 466126 , Reply# 19   9/13/2023 at 00:14 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I have an Avalir 2 and like it-no need to paint it a different color.I have some backpacks in my collection-they are VERY awkward to me.These are really for commercial use as was said.Home cleaning services don't use them.I don't like them becuase you are lugging the machine on your back-why not have it on the floor?MUCH easier!And as the backpack fills up with debris you picked up-gets even HEAVIER!

Post# 466127 , Reply# 20   9/13/2023 at 01:14 by beagledad (Florida)        

I'm not so sure that there will be a new model. I can't imagine the financial health of the Kirby subsidiary is doing well. They've made the mistake of only having one product and continued with using shady distributors to sell the product. Aerus went a different path and has managed to keep their core products (3 canisters, upright, and central vacuum) as well as branch off into air and water purification. They have a nice portfolio of products to offer customers and spread costs around. You can also reach out to any dealer and price shop.

Post# 466129 , Reply# 21   9/13/2023 at 06:35 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Note that Kirby doesn't offer an air purifier of any sort-the other DTD companies do.Maybe they should offer one!

Post# 466133 , Reply# 22   9/13/2023 at 08:27 by luxlife (Under a Pecan Tree)        
The air purifiers were a distractionÖ..

Seems like they were just a way for the salesman to get his ďfoot in the doorĒ and show you the vacuum. Kirby salesman always had a more direct, full frontal approach to gaining access to your home. Iíve heard the storiesÖ

Post# 466140 , Reply# 23   9/13/2023 at 13:14 by juju93 (South Georgia)        

Not only that, but those DTD sales people that offer the small air purifier use that as a way to sell the bigger machine version of them(cough couh rainbow). They use the smaller air purifier as a starter to sell the bigger one, that way if they like the smaller one, they'll be interested in seeing the performance of the bigger version. I'm sure whatever kirby is working on, if anything at all, its got to be worth the long wait that we've been experiencing for some time now. I'm sure they have someone in their research department reading these post or threads online to see what consumers like us want improved on.

Post# 466160 , Reply# 24   9/13/2023 at 20:08 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Read

lesinutah's profile picture
I said backpack/cannister. Backpack commercial cannister residential.
Ypu don't bent over using a backpack vacuum.
You know a proteam can clean twice as much area in the same amount of time.
Backpack vacuums aren't heavy and are twice as fast.
Your using a hose gliding over the floor.
Pushing a vacroom across a surface with tech drive strains t
Your arms and upper back.
The backpack puts evenly distributed weight on your back(should be one of the strongest parts of the body. Vacuuming floors is way more taxing in the body for twice as long.


Post# 466171 , Reply# 25   9/14/2023 at 11:55 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

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If Kirby wanted to sell backpacks, they should start by leasing a company to privately label them to see if the market would pick up on it or not. It'd save alot versus developing their own backpacks. Sandia has a private label program that both Bissell and Oreck had contracted with before. They're made in the USA that I'm sure Kirby would really like and I think they make the best backpacks on the market today. Personally, I don't really like backpacks. I agree with Rex as they feel uncomfortable for my back. When I was a volunteer janitor at a local elementary school, backpacks were easier to get around desks and chairs unlike the Windsor Sensor upright or even the NSS M-1 PIG canister they also had. But I remember having a hard time with using both the ProTeam Super CoachVac and the Sandia Raven 10 Quart on my back. They just aren't my cup of joe. The only time I'd ever see myself using a backpack would be climbing up a ladder and vacuum out dust from windows or ceilings.

sandiaplastics.com/private-label...






Post# 466199 , Reply# 26   9/15/2023 at 06:33 by Kirbyg6 (York)        

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Maybe they will do something special next year since they are going to be 110

Post# 466206 , Reply# 27   9/15/2023 at 11:23 by kirbylux77 (London, Ontario, Canada)        

kirbylux77's profile picture
I don't see Kirby developing a new model at all. What I do see is they either stick with the G Series platform, or they go out of business entirely.

The sad reality is, a Kirby does not work in modern homes! The machine does not do area rugs and hard floors as well or as easily as a modern bypass clean air upright. And the fact that you have to convert it to use attachments and other accessories, along with the fact that the only filtration the machine has is the HEPA Cloth bag, means that most consumers would consider it a bulky, heavy, hard to use, outdated relic of a machine. Yes us collectors love Kirbys, but the reality is most of the distributors would have a hard time selling it in the home. The only things the company can count on now is it's excellent cleaning performance and name recognition.

The other problem Kirby has that most other D T D brands have is form factor. Brands like Aerus, Rainbow, Kirby and Filter Queen all have a certain shape and design that they have used since the company's formation, and they must stick with for the product to be recognizable to consumers. If you designed a new Filter Queen model to look like a Miele clone, consumers wouldn't recognize it and probably dislike it as it isn't what they are accustomed to. Therefore, the company must stick with the general basic design they have used all along. This is where the Kirby design has it's greatest downfall - to stick with that general direct air upright design leaves very little room for modern improvements to make it more convenient to use. Hate to say it, but it's about time the Kirby design dies and the company is laid to rest.


Post# 466210 , Reply# 28   9/15/2023 at 14:37 by Kloveland (Tulsa)        

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Rob, I agree! Kirby is already a mature product. And if they make it into something else. Customers would not recognize it. I donít see how they could make it clean carpet any better than it already does. The guy at the factory said any newer model would have to clean better than or equal to the preceding model or something like that.



Post# 466211 , Reply# 29   9/15/2023 at 14:59 by jade_angel (Fort Collins, CO)        

They might be able to come up with a more convenient attachment system and/or a long-life belt. And maybe they could come up with a variant fan that generates a bit more working vacuum, like some of the later Royals, or a more aggressive brush roll, but that would just be tinkering around the edges.

OTOH, there's room for Filter Queen to update their design a bit more while keeping the form factor.


Post# 466219 , Reply# 30   9/15/2023 at 23:27 by kirbylux77 (London, Ontario, Canada)        

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Kenny - Yes, I agree! The cleaning performance isn't the issue, it's the design of the product. Yet they have their hands tied behind their back a bit because they also can't deviate from the design too much.

Eric - Yes, they could improve the fan or brushroll. But the carpet cleaning performance is already excellent. That's not the issue. The issue here is making the Kirby convenient to use and fit into today's modern homes and consumer's lifestyles.

I think the answer could lie in the Royal design. Eliminate the flat belt and center motor pulley, make a powerhead with the motor on top or behind the brushroll housing, with a geared belt. Or, possibly incorporate a design like the Kenmore/Panasonic Direct Drive brushroll with the motor in the middle. Replace the belt lifter assembly with a metal cap that removes to insert and remove the hose for above the floor cleaning. On the front of the handle, design a tool caddy to hold a dusting/crevice/upholstery tool, and on the back incorporate a stretch hose. And then a additional long hose and tool caddy like they do now for those consumers that prefer a non stretch hose. As for the machine's filtration, if they made the motor vent on the side by the height adjustment a little bit bigger & incorporated a Miele AirClean cloth microfibre type material to capture carbon dust from the motor, and if they either improved the outer bag material for added filtration, or made a hard case outer shell with a HEPA Filter for the bag, that would improve & modernize the Kirby's filtration. As for improving the floor cleaning, perhaps narrow the brushroll cavity a little bit, put a brushroll on/off switch somewhere on the powerhead, and change the powerhead baseplate to plastic or put some kind of soft touch material like velour or felt on it, so it would allevate consumer's concerns a metal baseplate would scratch wood floors.

The prototype Kirby we saw leaked years ago was nice, but was a bit too radical from the present design to be accepted by consumers. These changes would basically be a more tame redesign like that, but still styled like a traditional Royal/Kirby design while having some modern features added in.

As for Filter Queen, they have a couple options to modernize their design. Either ditch the paper filter cones for HEPA Cloth filter cones, or even better, replace it entirely with the Optima design they came out with years ago with HEPA Cloth bags. They nearly had it right, all they would have to do is redesign the motor intake in the bag housing so the bag wouldn't get sucked into it & inhibit airflow. Also, ditch the vents on the motor housing, put a longer handle on top, and add a HEPA Filter onto the blower port to modernize filtration. And of course that junky powerhead they use now would have to go!


Post# 466220 , Reply# 31   9/16/2023 at 00:44 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Tech drive strains arms and back???NOT for me Easier in all counts!!!Like comparing a hand pushed mower over a self propelled one.I find my Kirby outdoes ANY of the clean air vacuums in my collection,Simplicity-Riccar and Sebo.And the Kirby works at 6A instead of 12.Also moves more air!!!I'll take the NSS M1 over ANY backpack!!!Moves the air-much like a Kirby.Has a larger bag and as it fills you aren't supporting it on your back.Backpacks ARE NOT for folks with back problems.

Post# 466221 , Reply# 32   9/16/2023 at 05:38 by huskyvacs (Gnaw Bone, Indiana)        

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panasonicvac: "I just reached out to the Consumer Relations Manager at Kirby. Right now there isn't a new model planned to be released anytime soon. The design and engineering team are still working to develop a Kirby that's supposed to be proven overall better than it's predecessor. "

-----------------------------------------


Well that's good they are doing something, and it proves there is a new model coming (which was just speculation for the past many years). Let's just hope all of us will still be alive to see it now......

I can guarantee they will be making it lighter, that is the #1 complaint with Kirby vacuums. The other is the tool attaching. I still think if they can make the tool attachment feature some magnetic attachment system where it just clicks on and stays on - maybe some kind of diverter valve to switch from floor to hose - that would likely ease the conversion process and also would be an extra benefit to protect the fan blades from metal bits being sucked up.

It would be totally hilarious if their new design just ended up looking like the Bison, which was actually brilliant for that time period if it wasn't so poorly built.


Post# 466237 , Reply# 33   9/17/2023 at 07:27 by Kirbyg6 (York)        

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Iím looking forward it seeing it I would like some sort of hose connection into the power head like the patents showed that would be cool

Post# 466239 , Reply# 34   9/17/2023 at 08:39 by juju93 (South Georgia)        

Assuming thats all true about the attach hose, how will they implement that function into using the system in other cleaning modes, like the shampooer, blower mode, ect?

Post# 466240 , Reply# 35   9/17/2023 at 09:22 by Kirbyg6 (York)        

kirbyg6's profile picture
I donít know but it will be interesting to see

Post# 466287 , Reply# 36   9/17/2023 at 22:10 by superocd (PNW US)        
Kirby should revert back to the 500 series...

specifically a modernized Dual Sanitronic 50 and ditch Tech Drive. Squeeze the 7A Gxx motor in the shell, keep the Amodel fan (even though Kirby fans, no pun intended, prefer the metal fans- the Amodel fans are superior in durability and that would be the main selling point for Kirby) and make a quad brushroll with beaters filling the space between the brush strips for maximum performance.

We've now made advances in materials science since the 1930s to trust a quality, high-impact resistant plastic to replace costly aluminum castings. This should bring the entry price of a Kirby down a bit. We already use plastic in the motor base since the Sentria II. The fancase, however, should be lined with steel.

The existing dry foam carpet shampooer doesn't clean carpets in the way that an extractor would, so it should be discontinued. On the other hand, with good engineering of the front bearing, bearing plate and motor seal in addition to a clean tank attachment with an electric pump (perhaps secured onto the handle shaft), a dirty tank attachment onto the exhaust horn, and a special nozzle with a shampooing brushroll and powerful spray jets, it may be possible to create a wet extractor system using the existing direct-air fan and motor, which would be superior to a dry foam system. The other advantage of implementing an extractor system is that the fan and fancase can be cleaned out through the extraction process.

Use the Heritage II-Legend mini emptor design to facilitate HEPA disposable bags.

D2D is dead, gradually stray away from that and start marketing this machine as a superior alternative to Dyson, Miele and other mass-market premium machines in performance and longevity, keeping the price as close as possible to the same level. Also start selling the unit through commercial and janitorial channels as a modern 500 series would make an excellent commercial machine and would fill the niche that Royal left. Every office, hotel, bank, school, etc. would benefit from a Kirby.


Post# 466289 , Reply# 37   9/18/2023 at 00:05 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Amodel fans have problems with heat-If you use the hose on the Kirby in blower mode with the inflator tool-can cause the Amodel fan to melt or deform.Same thing will happen if you let the disposable bag get too full.Go back to the metal fan,PLEASE!

Post# 466298 , Reply# 38   9/18/2023 at 12:07 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        
Honestly

panasonicvac's profile picture
I just wish that Kirby would buyout the designs, tooling, and molding from TTI so they can bring back the Royal metal uprights but rebrand them as Kirby. I've never found a direct air upright that cleans just as well or better than a Royal.

Post# 466315 , Reply# 39   9/19/2023 at 02:29 by superocd (PNW US)        

Based on how industries handle model-specific tooling and molds at the end of a model run, I'm afraid that the Royal tooling is probably long gone and scrapped. Otherwise we'd be seeing Royal knockoffs at this point as TTI would have sold the tooling to another company.


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