Thread Number: 44722  /  Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
A little pet peeve I have...
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Post# 464714   7/20/2023 at 22:19 (217 days old) by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
I know some people on this site like Sanitares and similar direct-air vacuums, and so do I. However, there is one thing about them that I despise, and that is the dump-out bags that certain vacs have. How in the world are these things still allowed to be sold?? That is "technology" that has been around pretty much since the invention of the vacuum cleaner itself. Filtration on those pillowsacks is almost nonexistent, and they're not very pleasant to empty (I hope the janitors and housekeeping staff that use those machines empty them outdoors). I genuinely do not care about what excuses can be made for those things, I'd rather sacrifice some airflow by using a fill tube and bag than have to deal with clouds of dust in my face when I empty it. That's the reason I never use my old Kirby D50, it has a shake out bag. Dump out bags should've been phased completely an extremely long time ago, and yet they're still allowed to be sold.

Post# 464717 , Reply# 1   7/21/2023 at 00:16 (217 days old) by mark40511 (Lexington, KY)        

mark40511's profile picture
I've seen a few posts on here over the years of someone mentioning "shake out" bags or something like that and I too can't even imagine that's still even a thing.. Especially since some direct air machines use disposable bags...I mean, Kirby is direct air, right? It uses disposable HEPA bags

Post# 464719 , Reply# 2   7/21/2023 at 03:11 (217 days old) by Oreck_XL (Brooklyn, New York 11211)        
Cleaning Company owners are cheap

oreck_xl's profile picture
They don't want the added expense of disposable bags, nor do they care about what germs may linger in a reusable shakeout bag. Many we get in reek of Carpet Fresh which is even more unpleasant (gives me a headache).

Post# 464731 , Reply# 3   7/21/2023 at 12:54 (217 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
I think there is still a market left for shake out bags. If I were to install brand new carpet for a living, neither disposable bags or bagless dirt cups is what I'd use. Shake out bags would hold alot more carpet fiber, not empty out as much, and save money on not buying disposable bags or filters. Or if I was in construction like picking up saw dust in the wood shop, same thing.

Post# 464733 , Reply# 4   7/21/2023 at 13:52 (217 days old) by kloveland (Tulsa)        

kloveland's profile picture
I think shake out bags are economical for the commercial environment. I really don't see the issue in a commercial setting.

Post# 464735 , Reply# 5   7/21/2023 at 13:56 (217 days old) by kloveland (Tulsa)        

kloveland's profile picture
With that line of thinking are you going to mandate all commercial environments use Merv 15 filters in their HVAC units and organic cleaning products? Not trying to be rude. Just saying!

Post# 464736 , Reply# 6   7/21/2023 at 14:04 (217 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina)        

human's profile picture
The first Sanitaire I ever used belonged to a girlfriend I had almost 20 years ago. It was also my first introduction to shakeout/dump bags. Yuck! I was totally miffed by the idea that there was no inner filter bag. She would just dump it straight into the outside garbage can, and she loved that machine. In many ways, it reflected her personality, in that it was simple, no-nonsense, and just got the job done.

I finally got one myself a few years ago, an SC686, which I subsequently converted to use F&G bags. I bought a conversion kit online for about $25, shipped, that came with a replacement outer bag and a dozen generic paper F&G style bags. The outer bag had the same 'window latch' connector as the original dump bag, so swapping it over literally took about 45 seconds. Like a lot of Sanitaire replacement parts, the outer bag looks just like the OEM dump bag, except it has a zipper up the back, same materials and markings, but for the price I paid, it was most likely a generic one.


Post# 464759 , Reply# 7   7/22/2023 at 22:23 (215 days old) by repairman (Woodridge, IL)        

The only thing I didn't like about the latch style conversion bags was that they had a vinyl filltube which wore out under commercial use.

Post# 464837 , Reply# 8   7/26/2023 at 12:31 (212 days old) by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        
Once again,

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
I've stated my opinion on those things, and it's final. They should have no place in the modern-day domestic and commercial vacuum markets. That is unless there's some really niche need for them, and the bags could be somehow be emptied in a sanitary way. (Like maybe in some industrial setting idk).

Post# 464843 , Reply# 9   7/26/2023 at 15:40 (212 days old) by huskyvacs (Gnaw Bone, Indiana)        

huskyvacs's profile picture


The reason commercial vacs use dump bags is because of the square footage of flooring they have to cover every single day, bags would be an expensive cost sink and would fill up so fast the job would have a lot of wasted time running around fetching fresh bags. On top of that you have additional downtime to a vacuum if the bag supply runs out. Then there is the other fact of litter and debris which can be sucked up and puncture the bag and ruining it prematurely, and then the stink of it sitting in the bag waiting for the bag to be filled up as well.

Also I have never seen any home use vacuums that use a dump bag. If you are using a commercial vacuum in a residential setting this does not apply because you're using the vacuum outside of the environment it was built for.


Post# 464846 , Reply# 10   7/26/2023 at 17:30 (211 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
If you don't like shake out bags, then don't buy one or ever use one again. But some people would still like using them today. In fact, I'd rather take a shakeout bag over a cheap bagless vacuum that uses only one filter like a Bissell Powerforce Compact, I think those are even worse honestly. But as what huskyvacs pointed out, shake out bags have been phased out of the residential market as commercial vacuums are supposed to be used for the commercial market. Commercial buildings have a code nowadays where they need to have more MERV or filtration ratings than residential buildings so using a shake out bag shouldn't be a problem where they should be outlawed. Especially if you're outside like what the White House does.

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Post# 464852 , Reply# 11   7/26/2023 at 21:53 (211 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        
Clarification

panasonicvac's profile picture
The commercial buildings must have more filtration in the HVAC system.

Post# 464880 , Reply# 12   7/28/2023 at 17:55 (209 days old) by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        
HuskyVacs and Panasonic Vac

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
This thread was more of a personal opinion rant on dump-out bags. If you like them, that's fine. That's your opinion, but I simply think that they should not be able to be sold in the vacuum market (with some exceptions, I think). I've heard the argument that cleaning staff burn through bags on some of the vacuums they use, and to be honest, I kind of find that hard to believe. I can imagine them using bags up a little more quickly than they would in a domestic environment, but to such an extreme degree as described seems a little out there. Then again, I'm not a commercial cleaner, so I can't relate, but if I were one, and was experiencing that issue, I'd try to get a machine with a bigger capacity, like an Oreck XL Commercial upright. As for bags getting punctured and filtration, I'd try to use HEPA bags in m machines. They are more resistant to tears, and will filter better than the paper alternatives. I also wouldn't want to rely solely on the building's HVAC system to do the filtering, because who knows if that system is even up to code (better safe than sorry, especially after Covid). But then again, this is my speculation/opinion.

Post# 464896 , Reply# 13   7/29/2023 at 00:54 (209 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
I can actually concur that argument about going through alot of bags in commercial applications. I've worked at many commercial buildings before, the problem wasn't because the places were really dirty, it was because the dust was so fine that it clogged up the pores of the disposable bags especially cloth ones. Lots of bags that I changed out didn't even make it through halfway, especially bigger bags. That's what I like about the shake out bags at least on the direct air machines because not only they didn't clog up as much but also I wasn't wasting so much on buying disposable bags as what huskyvacs pointed out. Especially when I remember there were times we'd ran out of bags, we had to put the vacuums out of commission. I also concur with huskyvacs that disposable bags especially cloth ones can tear apart if somebody picked up something very sharp, I've seen them happen before.

Post# 464898 , Reply# 14   7/29/2023 at 02:59 (209 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

I used a Dyson for years before I “got into” vacuums and the benefits of hypo bagged vacs. I only thoroughly cleaned the Dyson once… after I discovered the vacuum hobby. Up until then I did not even know it had foam filters that were supposed to be regularly cleaned by hand. It was gross, then I gave it away. I now find all bagless vacs disgusting. I actually see the commercial merit in dump out bags and their place in society a lot more than the dirt bin bagless designs of of modern big box residential vacs. Does this make me a vac snob? I think it is more the case that I now have a greater appreciation of how gross “dirt” is in a home. If any design gets banned, it should be residential bagless vacs.

Post# 464912 , Reply# 15   7/29/2023 at 14:08 (209 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina)        

human's profile picture
I agree about bagless vacs. About 12 or so years ago, I had a girlfriend who moved in with me and insisted I vacuum with her bagless Bissell, POS that it was, and clean the filters each time. It would take me twice as long to clean the filters than it did to vacuum, and I would come out of the experience covered in dust. Never again! I have enough vacuums to last me the rest of my life and then some, and they all use disposable filter bags.

Post# 465159 , Reply# 16   8/7/2023 at 14:15 (200 days old) by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        
Panasonic Vac

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
if I were burning through HEPA bags at an alarming rate due to tears in them, and/or them getting plugged up with fine dust (which makes me genuinely curious as to what kind of debris people pick up with vacuums in commercial environments for that to even be a problem), I would probably just throw up my hands and just get a commercial bagless vacuum that's sealed, because I would not want to deal with the visible clouds of dust that are produced when I turn on a vacuum with a shake-out bag. At least bagless vacuums can have some filtration (at least according to VacuumWars on YT). Now granted, I am a little hypocritical, because I have and still do use machines that are unsealed, and have used paper bags in said machines, but at least there's something in those machines to contain some of the fine dust, and I'm working to stop using paper bags in my machines to make their filtration even better.

Post# 465164 , Reply# 17   8/7/2023 at 17:49 (199 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
Unfortunately there's not very many options out there for bagless vacuums in the commercial market, alot of the commercial vacuums are bagged. Probably the only one that'd fit your needs the best would be a Hoover Commercial TaskVac. If I had to replace the Shark at my work with something that is also bagless, it'd be that one. Unless if I could convince my office to go for a VacuFlo 566Q with a Acclaim powerhead instead since I find nothing better than central vacs.

Post# 465177 , Reply# 18   8/8/2023 at 11:24 (199 days old) by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
Is it sealed?

Post# 465180 , Reply# 19   8/8/2023 at 12:44 (199 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

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I wouldn't say it's as sealed as some other higher end machines due to being a budget model but it would definitely do a much better job than any shake out bagged vacuum with it's dual cyclonic no loss of suction technology and multi-stage filtration. As long as you replace the filters and tune the vacuum up daily, you'd be fine.

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Post# 465183 , Reply# 20   8/8/2023 at 14:29 (199 days old) by kloveland (Tulsa)        

kloveland's profile picture
"tune the vacuum up daily, you'd be fine." - that's the key! Will most janitors and housekeeping staff do that? no. That is why I like the tried and true Sanitaire dumb bag machines, they can take abuse.

Post# 465185 , Reply# 21   8/8/2023 at 15:22 (199 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
Eh I disagree that those Sanitaires can take abuse. Because they're direct air machines, there can be more problems to occur. The belts you need to change quite often because they stretch out more than probably any other rubber belt. Fans also require changing when they wear out and/or break. And if not too careful whenever you'd pick up some things that you shouldn't, you can definitely ruin your brushroll or motor by bending the shafts. Also it doesn't help that Sanitaire now uses cheap plastic motors that definitely don't lasts as long or longer than the metal motors, not to mention they aren't repairable like the metal motors. I'd much rather take a Windsor over a Sanitaire. Even though the disposable bags that Windsors take can clog up more than the shake bags on the Sanitaires, Windsors have more advantages than disadvantages. No belts required to be changed, brushrolls or brushstrips are much easier to change out, the fans won't go bad, I can suck up some things that won't damage the vacuum unlike the Sanitaires because they're bypass machines, and I can use the hose with attachments on-board. I've overall find Windsors more reliable than Sanitaires. Not to mention most people don't know how to fix up Sanitaires. This video from one of our members here can help back me up. If I had to use a direct air machine for commercial use, I'd rather use a NSS M1 PIG because I've seen those last longer than Sanitaires. And being a canister design, I can definitely get into areas that the Sanitaires won't reach.






Post# 465190 , Reply# 22   8/9/2023 at 00:31 (198 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

That video is for vacuums used for FOOD SERVICE use--NO-REPEAT NO VACUUM can be used for food service use.Use a Bissel type sweeper or a broom!None of these will get clogged from food matter spilled on food service place floors.And the carpeted floors will need steam cleaning from a commercial cleaning truck mount cleaner like every month.

Post# 465194 , Reply# 23   8/9/2023 at 10:03 (198 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)        

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The commercial "Perfect" canister vacuum (No powernozzle) is 'perfect' for restaurant use. I order them with the cloth shake-out bag. They are very tough. There's an Applebees here in town that's had their machine 4 years (which is a LONG time for a restaurant). When the thermostat kicks the machine OFF, the busboys take the cloth bag outside and empty it. By the time they get back inside, the thermal has reset.

There is a roller rink here in town that buys Commercial Orecks, which break fans and clog constantly. Then they went to dust cup Sanitaires. Broken fans and belts. Finally I got them to buy Perfect suction-only canisters and we've had no problems. The teenagers who work there don't care at all about the machine and the owner doesn't hold them accountable since she's so thankful there's any employees at all. Again, they run them until the thermal shuts it down, then they empty the cloth bag. I know HEPA disposable bags are available, but there's no way the company is spending that extra expense when the machines don't get taken care of in any way. 6 month life in total is to be expected.


Post# 465199 , Reply# 24   8/9/2023 at 13:38 (198 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina)        

human's profile picture
When I worked at Pizza Hut, off and on in 1982-83, we used a Craftsman wet/dry shop vac to vacuum the dining room. Yeah, this was back when Pizza Huts had dining rooms, which not many pizza places do anymore. That machine was in service when I started working there in May of '82 and worked there for the summer. When I went back the next summer, after coming home from my freshman year of college, it was still going strong, albeit with some duct tape holding the plastic wands together. It was absolutely the perfect machine for that application, sucking up fragments of pizza crust, pasta, salad, lemons from tea, etc. We just dumped it into the garbage barrel at the end of the night.

Post# 465202 , Reply# 25   8/9/2023 at 14:41 (198 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
I've used Windsor Sensor XP15s' at a local retirement community that I used to work at in the dining hall and other than the bags clogging up real fast, I've hadn't had any major problems with them. They were basically in the same condition that this one was in from the same member here. Definitely cleaned better than any broom or carpet sweeper they've also had there until they replaced all the carpet with hardwood floors.






Post# 465204 , Reply# 26   8/9/2023 at 19:18 (197 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Filtration on those pillowsacks is almost nonexistent

vaclab's profile picture
Is a completely false statement. Watch this video and you'll see just how good the filtration is. And these AREN'T PILLOWSACKS! And haven't been in many decades. This isn't the 1940's (and back) anymore.





I've also uploaded a photo with the appropriate screenshot showing just how well the black shakeout bag filters. HEPA? Of course not, but it's probably just as good as your baseline home air quality is.

As far as the dumping process, there are ways to nearly completely avoid any mess or breathing in the dirt. Literally, use the machine itself to blow out the bag and point it away from you while doing it.

Facts Over Fiction!

Bill


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Post# 465232 , Reply# 27   8/10/2023 at 20:08 (196 days old) by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        
(to as many ppl as i can respond to here)

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
Ok maybe I shouldn't have assumed that all dump-out bagged machines have terrible filtration, my bad. however, if I were a commercial cleaner, I would still try to use a machine that could take disposable bags in some fashion. Like for example, if I were using an F&G Sanitare, I'd try to install a bag with a fill tube and rear zipper. I still somewhat stand by my statements and opinions. Also on a side note, in Prefromance Review's video, he mentions that dump-out bags are becoming illegal to sell in certain states or areas. I'm curious to know what he meant by that.

As for the topic of a commercial vacuum in a restaurant, that's kind of a tricky one for me to pick a good recommendation. probably not a traditional upright, but maybe a canister vac with a wet/dry debris separator (like the one Vacumaid produced). Idk, but a shop vac seems to be a decent choice, as long as there was some filtration in it.


Post# 465286 , Reply# 28   8/14/2023 at 10:47 (193 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac ( Canberra, Australia )        
I’ll admit,

adam-aussie-vac's profile picture
Dump out bags do have their place especially in places where particular bags may be very hard to come bye because that particular brand of vacuum may not be in the market anymore in that country, a great example is in Australia we do occasionally have Royals showing up, but you can’t get bags for them if they use disposable Bags, although open top GE’s are a different story as I found out there are bags that can easily fit that machine

Post# 469277 , Reply# 29   2/5/2024 at 14:40 by AmtrakSebo1997 (Im stuck in the backrooms, help)        
Adam-Aussie-Vac

amtraksebo1997's profile picture
In general, I'd say you should avoid them if you can.

Post# 469279 , Reply# 30   2/5/2024 at 14:57 by huskyvacs (Gnaw Bone, Indiana)        

huskyvacs's profile picture


Anything to do with dump out bags and dirt clouds, everyone that has a bagless vacuum already is exposed to. It's the same exact thing. If you are that sensitive to dirt then you should not own a dump bag vacuum, or a bagless vacuum. If you do, just dump the dirt outside in the can. Totally a non-issue.

The reason dump bags are used in janitorial equipment is the amount of carpet they have to vacuum every single day. If they used paper bags, those bags would fill up within an hour or two, or get punctured, and the retail price of constantly ordering new packages of bags in bulk would be extremely expensive and far surpass the entire purchase price of the vacuum in due time. Commercial buildings will have enormous air filtration HVAC systems anyway, and with such a large square footage any dust spreading out is nothing to even care about.


Post# 469283 , Reply# 31   2/5/2024 at 16:00 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
During the pandemic, there were a TON of short handed supplies and/or backorders on vacuum bags. It was ridiculous. If you run out of bags and if you had to wait weeks if not months for more to come in especially for commercial applications, you're basically screwed.

Post# 469291 , Reply# 32   2/5/2024 at 21:48 by huskyvacs (Gnaw Bone, Indiana)        

huskyvacs's profile picture


Yup, I seen a lot of old commercial vacuums being kicked out onto eBay during covid. It was a venerable smorgasbord. Since everyone was getting free money and businesses were getting tax deductions, rather than continuing to use their current vacuums they just went out and bought new ones and sold the old ones, even if nothing was wrong. That's how I got the Lindhaus I got. Also got a Bissell Big Green too (sadly not the good ones, one of the cheaper priced models). I haven't seen hardly any old commercial vacs get auctioned off so frequently since then.


Post# 469330 , Reply# 33   2/6/2024 at 18:27 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
If

lesinutah's profile picture
I was vacuuming a few hours a day I'd do the sanitaire shakeout. I'd also take the bags off and wash weekly or monthly. I'd then get a leaf blower and blow all the excess dust out of the vacuum with the bag off.

You could always put a shakeout bag inside the shakeout and there'd be little issues with dust.
When I use sanitaire at home I have the ST setup with hepa bags.




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