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Thread Number: 43493
/ Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
Do central vacuums actually deep-clean carpets as good as a portable? |
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| Post# 454229 6/30/2022 at 01:55 (659 days old) by ajr2993 (Bakersfield, CA) | ||
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Central vacuums are good for above-the-floor cleaning but do they actually deep-clean carpets, I've heard from one user that the piping creates a lot of air resistance, and only gets about 50 CFM at the nozzle. | ||
| Post# 454246 , Reply# 1 6/30/2022 at 14:26 (659 days old) by Bimmer740 (Long Island, New York) | ||
I installed a VacuFlo 566Q in my parents house back in 2006 when I still lived at home and I can say that they most certainly do clean carpets exceptionally well! We've had several different power nozzles over the years, as well as the TurboCat Zoom air driven nozzle for quick pick ups, and all have done a great job. I installed a unit that is rated to be used in a house up to 8,000 sq ft and their house is around 3,00 sq ft with 4 direct connect inlets. I highly recommend an electric power nozzle if you have wall to wall carpeting, pets, children, etc. I don't think the air driven nozzles clean incredibly well, but for quick pick ups they are convenient. You can use an electric power nozzle with almost any set up now even if your don't have direct connect inlets, they have hoses with a pig tail electrical connection, and now they even have battery operated power nozzles available from Wessel-Werks and other manufacturers. There is plenty of information out there about central vacuum systems and endless videos on YouTube, I'd recommend that you double check the information you're getting from this particular source because they don't seem to have their facts straight.
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| Post# 454247 , Reply# 2 6/30/2022 at 14:42 (659 days old) by Bimmer740 (Long Island, New York) | ||
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I forgot to add that if you use a unit that is under powered or just has performance due to how it was engineered, then just like a portable vacuum, the system will not clean well. It's not just the size of the power unit that matters but it does play a large role, as well as how the system was installed in the home. If the piping is not installed correctly you won't be able to utilize the unit's power to its full potential.
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| Post# 454260 , Reply# 3 6/30/2022 at 19:23 (658 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah) | ||
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| Post# 454372 , Reply# 5 7/3/2022 at 13:55 (656 days old) by blueviewlaguna (California) | ||
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Interesting subject, what experience has everyone had in regard to measured Central Vac CFM at the hose end? - best and worst. | ||
| Post# 454386 , Reply# 6 7/3/2022 at 20:23 (655 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
compilation
It's not as easy as portable vs central really. there's such a wide variance in their performance and it's clear they are not all created equal. These are all units I've owned at some point or another stock images used where I couldn't find my own pictures. Each unit had it's flow measurements taken at the hose end with the hose being directly connected to the unit with a very small amount of pipework. and it's still not a great snapshot of their performance as there's really no parallel units in here the one series one i've had was years old and probably nowhere near as strong as a modern unit.
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| Post# 454387 , Reply# 7 7/3/2022 at 20:25 (655 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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oh no!
That looks terrible lets break them down and try again. I went by chronological order with them not by performance.
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| Post# 454388 , Reply# 8 7/3/2022 at 20:26 (655 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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pt 2
There now you can actually read them!
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| Post# 454400 , Reply# 9 7/4/2022 at 10:28 (655 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
The Simple Answer is No, They Don't
I've posted extensively on this subject in the past, but central vacuums can't be as good as the best portable vacs. Let's investigate why...
1) Assume a typical central vac canister (single motor) starts with 140 CFM 2) Add 50 ft. of piping and 35 ft. of hose and it will drop to 100 CFM (typical) 3) Hook up to a power nozzle (wands, u-joint) and the airflow can drop to 80 CFM (typical) Suction loss at the PN is astronomical as well. Check out Blackheart's YT channel and you'll see for yourself (Go Blackheart!) Pick any newer Royal, Kirby or Sanitaire and they have around 150 nozzle CFM. Added portable bonus: much less power usage. Say 1700 watts versus 600 watts. Since both can use H11 (HEPA) bags, filtration is just as good. FYI, I've lived in (and parents owned) 4 houses since 1974 that have central vacuums. With typical use, they can clog periodically. If you need to deep clean pile carpets, appropriate agitation coupled with as much airflow as you can push (Kirby excels here) wins every time. If you primarily have bare floors, very little is required to clean those well. Witness the explosion of low CFM robot and stick vacs (20 CFM and lower). Bill
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| Post# 454462 , Reply# 11 7/5/2022 at 20:07 (653 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah) | ||
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I actually agree with the last post. My parent's central vac has only had ONE clog out of 32 years of using it and it was from user neglect. It wasn't the vacuum's or the piping's fault. As long as you don't vacuum up anything that you're not supposed to and if you maintain your piping with wipes like the Tornado Maintenance Cloths, you shouldn't have any clogging issues.
I don't however agree with the other post that high airflow and agitation is what's needed to deep clean carpets. For example. My grandparent's Kirby, one of the tech drive models with strong air flow and agitation, did a horrible job on some of the carpets they had. Not only it struggled picking up sand and cat litter but also ice melt salt that was used for the winter. In fact just after my grandfather's passing a few months ago, we tore up those carpets and there was a BUNCH of sand and dust underneath the carpet and carpet pad that the Kirby should've easily sucked up. That was where I really missed the Dirt Devil Jaguar (Breeze) bagless upright the most that my grandparents used to have. From my experience, the Dirt Devil not only felt like it had as good of agitation and airflow but it definitely had more suction power than the Kirby since it was a bypass machine. In fact, that one did SO MUCH better on those carpets. Not to mention that it was bagless where I can easily see what's coming into the dust bin, it's harder to tell what's coming into the bag on the Kirby. And it's so much easier to use the hose with the attachments. I've ended up doing a much faster and better job on those carpets with the Dirt Devil than with the Kirby. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Kirby. I would always change the bag and the belt on the Kirby, actually more often than I should've. The fan had been replaced twice. And the brushroll, the motor bearings and the carbon brushes had been changed out. The thing that I've never liked about the Kirby was every time I would vacuum with it, I would always find sand and grit inside the nozzle that should've been easily sucked up had it had more suction power. I'm likely going to be disagreed here but I'm just saying that only high airflow and agitation didn't work for me. | ||
| Post# 454512 , Reply# 12 7/6/2022 at 21:30 (652 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
@ajr2993 I'm not sure where you get your numbers from?
To my knowledge nobody has a laboratory capable of testing CFM accurately. There are a couple people who have measured very wrong with some homemade air boxes for YouTube entertainment. But I wouldn't put any weight behind them. To answer your question Central Vacuums are the most powerful type of vacuum you can buy. Having a machine run off of 240 volts capable producing 200+CFM there's absolutely no question behind that. If you're asking this question I'm guessing you don't own a central vacuum or have much experience using one? You can definitely tell the difference. It's hard to go back to portable vacuums after having a central vacuum. I can't believe you're in Bakersfield California! That's the home of MD aka modern-day manufacturing. If I were you I would call and see if you could arrange a tour of their factory and learn for yourself. CLICK HERE TO GO TO vacuumdevil's LINK | ||
| Post# 454517 , Reply# 14 7/6/2022 at 22:56 (652 days old) by ajr2993 (Bakersfield, CA) | ||
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@vacuumdevil I already did. I told them a lot about their systems, knowing how they're made, seeing all the attachments, seeing their competitors, and I even got a T-shirt with the MD logo on it. | ||
| Post# 454544 , Reply# 15 7/7/2022 at 17:07 (652 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver, Colorado) | ||
I guess I'm just at a loss for why people tend to so strongly believe central vacs can't retain their perforce just because of the long distance the air has to flow. Yes, I could conceive of a way to install the plumbing to ensure it loses most of its airflow, just use all tight 90s and sweep Ts. If you use the right fittings, the system will be less restrictive, and also less prone to clogging. If you use a high powered unit (and you should, or you're defeating the point with this...) you will most certainly end up with better performance than any portable. Especially if you use the right hose, the biggest restriction in the whole system should be the hose end tube, or the tool attached to it.
And for clogs, I suck up everything under the sun with my system. Literally if it fits into the hose end it goes. Napkins, receipts, candy wrappers, dryer sheets and just any and every other kind of debris you could imagine, and I have NOT ONCE had to unclog my own system. Again, if the unit is powered properly and the piping was installed correctly, you don't have these problems. Bill, I'm sorry you've had experience with a system that isn't really up to even the standards of the day. I think, if you actually tried a newer system out, a good one, you'll understand why they are preferable to something like a Kirby. | ||
| Post# 454546 , Reply# 16 7/7/2022 at 17:40 (651 days old) by beagledad (Florida) | ||
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I've noticed that some vacuum fans don't like central vacuums for whatever reason and so they come around and make stuff up. The premise of this thread is just absurd. | ||
| Post# 454556 , Reply# 17 7/7/2022 at 23:11 (651 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR) | ||
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central vacs are only as good as the install. Unfortunately some contractors aren't worth much, and the systems are leaky and weak. If installed correctly, they can be wonderfully quiet and powerful. | ||
| Post# 454575 , Reply# 18 7/8/2022 at 12:51 (651 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver, Colorado) | ||
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Really that is it. A crappy install yields a crappy system with a lousy user experience. Also, the same goes for the unit and tool kit. As a side note, when I do an install I make damn good and sure the system performs as I led the customer to expect it would. Unless my work impresses me, I feel I've failed the customer.
Also, I've noticed a tendency for some collators to choose to think negatively towards machines they feel they can't obtain. I see it with things like the high end Euro vacs too. | ||
| Post# 454641 , Reply# 20 7/10/2022 at 10:06 (649 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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Dual motors
So I figured I'd wait to share this until the unit was shipped. I bought a Parallel motor Beam off marketplace. It appears to be comparable to their SC3500 which is their current TOL there's a difference of 45 AW but when you're looking at a range in the 1000 45 isn't that significant. It'll be interesting to see how this does at the end of the hose, And yes I know their inverted filters are not great so bags will be in order. Now all I need is a decently priced powerful series motor unit that and a place to put in a proper install to really get a look at their performance.
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| Post# 454642 , Reply# 21 7/10/2022 at 10:06 (649 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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Crap!
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| Post# 454645 , Reply# 22 7/10/2022 at 14:01 (649 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Reggie,
Please everyone remember that your personal experience usually doesn't equate with the typical user experience. Owners that actually care about their machines treat them differently.
I've never clogged reasonably working vacuum under normal circumstances. That being said, I've seen countless people clog all sorts of machines, including central vacs since the 1970's. The last one my parents had installed was in 2004. Think about what owners are told about such machines when they are installed (suck the paint off the walls, etc.). Now imagine what the typical owner will attempt to suck up. Let's see, how about fireplace ashes, mountains of dog hair, and lots of drywall dust. Oh, and some of that material will also be damp. So all that muck gets progressively stuck in the hose and pipes and Viola! You've got yourself a healthy clog. Simply really. And Alex, I never cease to be amazed at how little you know about how a vacuum works, especially central vacuums. You quote how powerful the motor is and you should know by now that makes little to no difference. As I've said countless times, what you start out with is not what you end up with for cleaning power. Check out the chart above and you'll see that the airflow loss drops significantly when reducing the orifice size. And that's at the motor end, not including any piping or hoses. Learn how to read a chart please! | ||
| Post# 454649 , Reply# 23 7/10/2022 at 14:37 (649 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Blackheart's Canavac Tests
Power consumed (no nozzle), about 1556 Watts
Canister Airflow (@ port) = 192 CFM Canister Suction (@ port) = 134 inches ***With no piping*** Hose airflow = 111 CFM Hose suction = 130 inches Hook the above to your favorite wand and power nozzle and you'll see airflow and suction drop much lower. I don't have anything against any type of vacuum (I like them all to a degree), but what grinds my gears is when people make false claims about any vacuum (or vacuum type). That's why I started my channel. Useable nozzle CFM from an installed central vacuum is nothing special. The delivery method proves this. With the average rugplate, a vacuum isn't very push-able on pile carpet with high airflow and/or high suction. Want proof? Try any newer Kirby with the tech drive "off" on thicker carpet and see how far you get. Bill | ||
| Post# 454780 , Reply# 24 7/13/2022 at 12:31 (646 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver, Colorado) | ||
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Blackheart, your Beam uses different, arguably better motors, 3 fan 5.7 horned exhaust. A little less CFM than the new one, but more water lift and a lot longer life.
Vaclab I have sucked up everything, aside from the fireplace ashes (and I don't recommend that one), including damp stuff, and definitely mountains of pet hair, kitty litter, pine needles. I've even sucked up small bits of water when cleaning out vacuums at work. A central vac is the vacuum for people who just suck everything up and not care. As for motor size, power, orifice size and flow reduction etc... I've seen many of those charts, and I am fully aware that a vacuum motor is simply a blower, reducing the orifice size in the flow creates pressure, on the in flow side that's negative pressure, on the outgoing side that's positive pressure. At any orifice size, more water lift will increase the flow. As you add the pipe system, hose, and attachments, it's the suction pressure that keeps the flow strong. The lower the suction, the greater the loss as you restrict the orifice. Coincidentally, this same principal works when the nozzle your'e using comes into contact with carpet. The carpet itself becomes a restriction. A Kirby, with the nozzle off the floor may move more air than my central vac head off the floor, but as soon as they are trying to move air through carpet nap, the flow of air with weaker force behind it will be the most impeded. Same goes for upholstery, set the nozzle on the couch and the machine with more water lift will force more air through the fabric. All the suction in the world won't get the dirt without movement of air, and all of the CFM in the world does no good if it can't be forced through the places where the dirt needs swept out of. | ||
| Post# 454796 , Reply# 25 7/13/2022 at 17:50 (645 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Ultralux
You stated: "At any orifice size, more water lift will increase the flow."
My Response: Suction does not increase the flow, it ATTEMPS to maintain what you have. Notice I said ATTEMPS. You cannot exceed the base airflow measured at the motor, it's all downhill from there. Want some actual numbers that show just how much suction maintains actual flow through carpet? Glad you asked! See the chart below but here's a snippet: Airflow box tests (sealed) Dyson DC65 (@ nozzle) has 58 CFM and 64" Kirby Avalir (@nozzle) has 150 CFM and 30" Airflow through the carpet (brushroll ON) Dyson DC65 = 26 CFM Kirby Avalir = 57 CFM So the Kirby loses about 62% of its airflow and the Dyson loses about 55% of its airflow. Despite the Dyson having more than DOUBLE the sealed nozzle suction, the Kirby still has more than DOUBLE the usable airflow through a medium pile carpet. And to boot, the Kirby uses dramatically less Watts than the bagless Dyson. Bill
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| Post# 454797 , Reply# 26 7/13/2022 at 18:03 (645 days old) by beagledad (Florida) | ||
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Thank you Ultralix88 for your informative and polite post. You explained it well in simple terms and I really appreciate that! | ||
| Post# 454831 , Reply# 27 7/14/2022 at 05:45 (645 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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Beam motors
Reggie, the motors are a 119678 2 stage motor. Found the specs on the vacuum factory's website. I'd assume the lift is less than the 3 stage you mentioned but with greater flow.
Motor Type: Bypass Discharge: Tangential Bearings: Double Ball Bearing Sealed Vacuum: 127.7 inches Maximum Air Watts: 523 Maximum Air Flow: 115 CFM Maximum Amps: 7.3 Motor Speed: 28,726 RPM With you being a central vac guy. Is there a specific type of foam used for sound deadening in them? The half inch thick stuff below the plastic dome was crumbly. I picked up some polyurethane foam from a local hardware store at the suggestion of someone from swiss boy vacuum stores. But it's like I can't help but wonder if I should be using something a little different. | ||
Post# 454843 , Reply# 28 7/14/2022 at 08:08 (645 days old) by gottahaveahoove  (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
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IF I were gutting a home OR | ||
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Post# 454882 , Reply# 30 7/15/2022 at 08:30 (644 days old) by kloveland (Tulsa) |
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| Post# 454884 , Reply# 31 7/15/2022 at 09:08 (644 days old) by dysonman1 (the county) | ||
I probably have one of the most plumbed homes for central vac there is (but look who my friends are - central vac installers). The suction and airflow at the end of any of my hoses is greater than the same on any of my portables. I use different power nozzles on my hoses just to see the difference, and my favorites are the Rainbow PE power nozzle as well as the EBK360. Once a year, at the Vacuum Cleaner Collectors Convention in September, the guys empty my machine. And weigh the bag.
Evan R. taught me to use Viva paper towels, dampen them, and they are the same as Tornado cloths. After I sucked up taco salad (never give a puppy left over taco salad) I used the cloths and they worked like a charm.
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