Thread Number: 38645  /  Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
Even More airflow tests (part 3)
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Post# 410716   6/20/2019 at 17:59 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        

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I don't enjoy having to scroll through long topics so I figured i'd break this into another part rather than further extending the previous thread.

I finally got my Hepa Filters for my backpack today and i've been itching to see how it does. This is the highest hose airflow i've seen on any canister style machine, the next in line would be the Patriot P3 at 116.61 , then the lux platinum at 112.51.

I was disappointed with the nozzle numbers, I thought it would be over 90 CFM and based upon this nozzles ability to stick to both my kitchen floor and my area rugs I was expecting a higher waterlift from it too. If I try to clean my Sebo rug this setup drags it around, even with the suction relief open, as you can see in this short video. I suppose I suppose I should be thankful, if it had more nozzle suction it might just seal down to the carpeting.

I'm curious to see what this would pull with a standard 1.5" hose, but unfortunately it didn't come with one.

Next up will be the Patriot P3. I don't have the proper wands for it but I have the hose and I can put my Felix's ET-1 on it for testing since that's what's being offered with it currently.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Blackheart's LINK


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Post# 410747 , Reply# 1   6/21/2019 at 18:50 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Patriot!

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so close to that 100 mark for nozzle airflow! I decided to borrow the ET-1 off my Felix for this test due to Patriot currently pairing the P3 with it. I did switch out the original hose stub for another due to it having an unusual button lock placement. the original did not have a suction relief. I also am using a different wand due to me not having the original wands. I am using Vacuum America clean Hepa bags and the post motor filter's condition is not known.

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Post# 410840 , Reply# 2   6/23/2019 at 20:28 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
I'll Add My Recent TriStar CXL Tests Here

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Rather than add to the old thread. For such an old machine, seems like great performance. Comparing to your first post showing the ProTeam backpack, note that the old TriStar falls behind by only 1 nozzle CFM.

Bill


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Post# 410843 , Reply# 3   6/23/2019 at 21:28 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Nice

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I notice TriStar two speed close to the program but I own c9 which is at least 10cfm less than any tested.
I may just assume but the proteam, TriStar and patriot boast one common thing I presume the proteam is cyclonic power.
It shows cyclonic power in these 3 models is how houses were cleaned and proteam leading commercial market commercial vacuum are cyclone.bagged technology is the key to great performance in vacuums.
Thanks for the tests. I was tempted by proteam but I have to wait a little before next accusation that isn't thrift store cheap.
Les


Post# 410858 , Reply# 4   6/24/2019 at 05:59 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Bill

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After watching your video on your CXL I realized your model has significantly more nozzle CFM than the CXL I tested. Now thinking back, looking at your PN rebuild video and recalling the work done on my own DXL I realized there was a foam in the nozzle that didn't belong in the vacuum. It was yellow and soft almost like what you'd find in furniture. this probably wasn't dense or compressed enough to act as a seal. I think I'll test my current DXL the numbers should be closer.

Yeah it's kind of a shame that the nozzle brought the backpack down so far. I'm thinking of converting the handle so I can use it with something different. Perhaps with the ET-1 and the higher power of the backpack it'll surpass the 100 mark. Or perhaps one of my other nozzles is more efficient, who knows.



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Post# 411019 , Reply# 5   6/29/2019 at 16:12 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
A lindhaus!

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This just arrived today. It needed to be repaired right off the bat. The listing showed it as an open box item. It was very clean aside from a little carbon dust on the post motor filter. The problem was a piece of foam. right below the exhaust grill there was a piece of foam that did not breathe very well I did some initial measurements and got some terrible numbers, i also noticed the exhaust was very weak and hot. I took the post motor filter out and put my hand over the grill where i noticed air was coming out forcefully on both sides of it but not much in the center. So I opened up the machine and took the foam out. I left the motor wrap in place because it could breathe. So after removing the problem I re-measured it and got results more in line with what I thought. These units are kind of like Sebo in ways but their suction motor is often weaker, though they make up for it with an efficient brushroll. I've included pictures of the problem foam, the after filter, and the brushroll.

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Post# 411046 , Reply# 6   6/30/2019 at 08:43 by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
nozzle

Which nozzle are you using with your Proteam backpack? Most backpacks take a 1.5 hose, but you can use an adapter on the attachment end to use 1.25 attachments. Using 1.5 attachments may provide more airflow but not as many attachments are available in that size. All of my backpacks came with 1.5 hoses, I still use the hose but I bought this awesome end that allows you to use 1.25 attachments with it, and it provides a decent handle as well.
Mike


CLICK HERE TO GO TO n0oxy's LINK


Post# 411053 , Reply# 7   6/30/2019 at 14:10 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Nozzle and hose.

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The nozzle is a Wessel Werk EBK340C
The hose with the electric nozzle kit is a 1.25 it's very similar to the wessel werk retrofit hose except it's shorter, has a non standard pigtail at the machine end, and a pigtail that resembles a computer cord that comes out of the handle.
I recently got my hands on a more standard backpack hose and got about 149.5CFM with that. I'm a little surprised the number is that low but the 90 degree cuff may be partially responsible.


Post# 411065 , Reply# 8   6/30/2019 at 23:25 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Blackheart

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Do you own these vacuums or are some from your work. If you own them you have a heck of a collection.
Les


Post# 411071 , Reply# 9   7/1/2019 at 06:59 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Les

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I either own or previously owned most of them. My collection tends to be mostly high end machines and the cheaper ones tend to leave quicker. Typically anything that's on green carpeting was done at the shop's old location, I didn't own those machines I was just testing them.
There's also some other machines I tested at the shop's new location, like the Simplicity S10E,S10D, S10CV,S20D, S20UP, and the Proteam 1500XP. I did more recently try to test some of their new Lindhaus machines but I've not posted them due to missing information and the Activa chewing up my foam rubber strips on the box, it slid forward a bit and really ate away at it.
Oh and I didn't own the Filter Queen M360 that was part of a trade in lot and I brought it home for a day to compare it to the 75th anniversary.

I'm currently sitting at 28 machines, 6 of which are hand vacs. Really should trim it down but it's more difficult when you have money into them.


Post# 411118 , Reply# 10   7/3/2019 at 06:12 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Ya

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I really have no idea how many machines I have. I have about 10 hand vacs. Mine really aren't high end. I'd guess 20-30 but actual number I have no idea.
I think it's pretty sweet you own most of the tested vacs

Les


Post# 411160 , Reply# 11   7/4/2019 at 12:44 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Wow! 47 Nozzle CFM And 8" Lift is Really

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Quite dreadful. Many cheap plastic vacs do the same if not better than this. So glad you tested this machine and showed what a low performer it is!

Bill


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Post# 411906 , Reply# 12   7/22/2019 at 19:24 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
ugh!

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I wanted this machine to do better! I always figured if I bought another Lindhaus this would be the model. I liked my old grey one and felt it did well, but I'm very disappointed. The specs are 103 CFM and 90 waterlift (seen in pic 2). I want to know why this machine gets such low numbers despite having good specs. I've found that both lindhaus machines i've measured are not even close to their ratings.
To try to make some sense of this. I tore my Diamante apart again and measured it's waterlift and airflow at the motor I got a solid 80" which the diamante is rated for 78" I was getting some crazy airflow readings as high as 4921 (128 CFM). I think that this was due to the air being in a concentrated stream coming out from the motor. It was never really given the space to spread out and better fill the vane's area. I also noticed it was consuming a lot of wattage with the suction motor running at 982 watts and both motors at 1175 watts running at 125v while the ratings plate puts it at 930 watts.


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Post# 411964 , Reply# 13   7/23/2019 at 23:26 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Question

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It looks like when using anamometer on nozzle you use a blow dryer am I seeing that right?
Les


Post# 411968 , Reply# 14   7/24/2019 at 06:05 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
A blow dryer?

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I'm rather confused. When measuring the nozzle I put the machine on the box attempt to seal it and then just use the vane that doesn't have the cone attached.

Post# 411988 , Reply# 15   7/24/2019 at 16:42 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Well, If The 103 CFM Rating

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Actually meant 103 RAW motor CFM, then maybe your measurements are correct?

And yes, if you don't use a "cone" or some other adapter to mate to the anemometer, you can get wildly high CFM's. When I first got my GM8901, I was fiddling around one day and noticed that.

Bill


Post# 411991 , Reply# 16   7/24/2019 at 18:12 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Eh.

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I don't know something feels off about it, I went back today to check the difference between the RX380E and the Healthcare pro. I inserted a 35mm wand into the hose port and took a suction reading of either 68 or 70 the RX had 66 There doesn't seem to be a relief valve in the HCP as little to no air seems to come out the exhaust when blocked off where the RX had very little coming out indicating a leak. According to the brochures they have the same cfm and suction specs.

The air path at least on the intake side is fairly simple going from the motor to the hose port should have 2 major seals the motor seal and the bag door. If the motors are capable of 90" we should be seeing much closer to that. I cannot see where 20" of suction would be lost in such a short path leading to me wonder if the published numbers are correct.

Now I get that different factors can result in different results but Looking at VacuumDevil's recent Numatic videos his James seemed to get about 70" where I get about 80" with an elevation difference of 4376 feet. But there's only a only a difference of 865 ft between Padova Italy and where I'm located so that cannot be the reason.


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Post# 412000 , Reply# 17   7/25/2019 at 03:07 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Por wue

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Hey
What is in pic I posted. It looks like a hair dryer.
Les


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Post# 412001 , Reply# 18   7/25/2019 at 05:47 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
oooooh

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That. That is a plastic funnel trimmed down to fit onto the vane. Bill told me that the baird cuff I was using was constricting the airflow into a small area thus giving me higher numbers. While he uses a paper cone I didn't want to use a paper cone due to my testing gear being stored somewhat...roughly and knowing that I would end up replacing that often last I sought out a more permanent fixture.
It isn't used for nozzle testing though I use my other vane which doesn't have the cone to put against the box. The cone is used for hose end and wand end measurements.


Post# 412023 , Reply# 19   7/25/2019 at 21:15 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Shh

lesinutah's profile picture
I noticed cone shape. That makes sense .
Thanks for explaining that to me.
Les


Post# 412109 , Reply# 20   7/27/2019 at 22:27 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Something old

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Here's a private labeled compact C-8, it did better than I thought it would. I also learned that the exhaust grills are restrictive. despite the "filter" material being extremely open placing the grill on it does reduce airflow. Hm I can't find my waterlift at the body. It seemed to be about 76" With the exhaust cap removed body airflow went from 103.77 to 115.07

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Post# 412111 , Reply# 21   7/27/2019 at 22:29 by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
Wow

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What a difference with that exhaust cap removed!

Post# 412119 , Reply# 22   7/27/2019 at 23:26 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Woe

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I have a c8 I painted green. I put new motor in it. I did airflow with my anamometer two days ago. I did only cfm I got 113.
That's a cool version. It has the clear sparling handle grip. It also looks like exhaust cap is original with IEC on it.
Is the motor the same from c8 to the silver compact then it went to higher powered two speed In red or black version. I remember asking about the motor. I realized the one speed is 5.7 amp motor and the newer is 6 plus inches.
Did hoses come like yours pictured?. I bought c9 had a newer hose and c8 hose is straight suction no cord but I put new hose on it. If you add the power cord what gauge of wire is used?
Thanks
Les


Post# 412125 , Reply# 23   7/27/2019 at 23:54 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Yup

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I'm quite shocked at that exhaust cap's resistance the material is really loosely woven so you wouldn't think it would matter that much.

The exhaust cap is blank if it did have the logo it fell off at some point.

No, the DXL is definitely stronger with about 130 body cfm and 90" of suction it has a good amount more power than this C8. I'm not exactly sure what motor is in this despite me tearing it completely apart cleaning the fans out and such. I do know it's a lamb motor and it Found a series of numbers on it 11 127 something the last number seems to be a 3 or 8 but I can't really tell it was worn off.
As for the hoses I don't know I thought it was a generic at first but looking at it's hose grip I think this may indeed be genuine just before the release of their internal wire electric hose? As for retrofitting it You just need to buy a pigtail. Link to one 8 ft cable below. This one may be a little long but it'll work you just need to affix it to the outside of the hose


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Blackheart's LINK


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Post# 412132 , Reply# 24   7/28/2019 at 00:30 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Thanks

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I replaced the motor and it was same motor for pre 1993 one speeds. I just checked those numbers are original motor to the model.
I think motor was the same but dxl motor is bigger and has 1.5-2 amps more power than motor I have.
Is proteam and dxl motor the same. I would guess the smaller protea. Is same as compact and proteam is different as 150 cfm is not in any motor that fits a compact. I think 2 speed may fit in c9 but I could just buy a dxl for a little more . The motors are model specific and just altering would be a water.
Thanks for info on hose.
Les


Post# 412177 , Reply# 25   7/29/2019 at 07:59 by Mike811 (Finland)        
Sebo K1 & Electro Helios U318 (1979)

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Here is two canister vacuums.
Age difference 40 years.
Results were very surprising.
Woven hose results for the Electro Helios: airflow 90 cfm suction 83".
Plastic hose results for the Electro Helios: airflow 99 cfm suction not measured.
Hose results for the Sebo K1: airflow 93 cfm suction 87".
Note that Sebo exhaust filter removed it got 100 cfm. In the Electro Helios it had no effect to the results (thin fabric filter).
Both used fleece/hepa bags.


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Post# 412196 , Reply# 26   7/29/2019 at 19:33 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
A new challenger approaches!

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I just ordered this today, so it should be here either this or next week. This may have the most airflow of any vacuum measured to date. That is just speculation though.

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Post# 412198 , Reply# 27   7/29/2019 at 21:33 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hmm

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Nss pig. If I remember 125-140. It may hit 150. It may be wrong vacuum but big vacuum bit motor.
Les


Post# 412382 , Reply# 28   8/4/2019 at 18:36 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Yeah...

blackheart's profile picture
Initial testing with the NSS has been....lower than anticipated I think i was getting about 118 hose cfm off a 1.5" diamater hose. It will be undergoing modification to get a disposable bag in it though. The original "leather" filltube was all torn up.

Anyways I just finished cleaning this up today. It's not bad, but not great. The nozzle also has quite a bit of dead space. I had one of these a a number of years ago under the sanitaire name, but it was bagged instead of bagless.


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Post# 412470 , Reply# 29   8/6/2019 at 22:51 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hmm

lesinutah's profile picture
I knew it was a pig. You forget the vacuum bag is the size of a freaking garbage can. It may only run 120 cfm but how many vacuums can inhale a garbage can and still be pumping 120 cfm. It's a pig because it eats everything including the big bad wolf. It doesn't inhale the fastest but it inhales everything.
Les


Post# 412471 , Reply# 30   8/6/2019 at 23:28 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
How many?

blackheart's profile picture
Well...I'd assume most backpacks could. They don't have the same capacity as the M1 though. I was just disappointed because I had such high expectations for it. With the Giant 8" diameter fan I figured they could really move some air. Perhaps once I have my bag conversion in place I'll re-test it, having a smooth airpath instead of the raggedy cloth filltube may improve it.

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Post# 412474 , Reply# 31   8/7/2019 at 02:48 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I think the same thing for the Pig bags-get rid of the cloth fill tube and go to one like that Kirby has.The Pigs cloth fill tube can trap debris in between the cloth tube and the metal tube just inside it.And the cloth fill tube can get damaged by debris going thru it from that HUGE fan.One of my bags fill tube was shredded after cleaning up a basement reno job.The Pig gulped the stuff down better than any Shop Vac type vacuum.Fan was undamaged--it ate conduit box slugs(bent them over)A 6" piece of 14Ga Romex cable-many nails and cable staples-wood bits,sawdust,plaster dust.Had to replace the outer bag.My friend paid for the replacement.It was fun listening to the pig dinging and thooping that stuff into the bag!That Pig is still going strong to this day!!!!Contrast that to many shop type vacuums where the motor was killed by plaster dust and moisture.

Post# 412582 , Reply# 32   8/10/2019 at 16:23 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another

blackheart's profile picture
This is as far as I go with this machine. I can't see myself investing anymore money into it with measurements like this. It's a neat machine though and much easier to clean than Rainbow. Machine measurements would have been a pain and likely inaccurate it has a square inlet and when the hose isn't plugged into the machine it runs on low speed for air cleaning.

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Post# 412887 , Reply# 33   8/18/2019 at 16:16 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another Shark

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The L denotes the hard floor setting and the H for carpet, Low and High. I didn't measure the opening for CFM density as these leak a good amount of flow through the front so I wasn't sure if the front roller should be included as part of the nozzle opening. There is a suction relief valve in this so the suction listed isn't it's full power.

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Post# 412891 , Reply# 34   8/18/2019 at 16:42 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
More Lindhaus!

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A friend of mine purchased this to clean hallways and vacant apartments. I measured it with both the straight suction kit and the Electric kit. This is a backpack vacuum, but it can be converted to a canister with a wheel kit.

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Post# 415853 , Reply# 35   11/12/2019 at 17:33 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Yet another backpack

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As far as I can tell the difference between the SC530 and the Sc535 is an added hepa filter.

I've gotta say 105 hose cfm is pretty poor the Proteam FS6 manages nearly 150 CFM with the same 1.5" hose. The difference is quite noticeable when you're cleaning with them the nozzles have more sticking power when you're using the proteam.


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Post# 416360 , Reply# 36   11/22/2019 at 18:19 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
A hoover

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This is one of the newest additions to my collection. I think this may be the best featured commercial vacuum for the price. Long life belt with a hall sensor, two speeds, easy to use onboard tools, a pigtail for easy cord changes, height adjustment, decent bare floor cleaning, both charcoal and hepa filtration are all included. I'm unsure of it's reliability over time but when your other mid 200 commercial options are very basic machines like carpet pro this is a great option.

For those unfamiliar with them they remind me more of a windtunnel upright but with some additional features.


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Post# 417058 , Reply# 37   12/8/2019 at 18:52 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Finally!

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The NSS M-1 This is a 12 amp version.

The original leather-like filltube was replaced due to the last one being torn to hell. This change most likely does effect it's flow. Due to the odd design I'd say the Kirby filltube most likely improves it.

Strangely there's a sticker on the side saying it has 117 CFM at a 1.5 orifice which matches up with the hose CFM.
As we can see the machine airflow is ridiculous! It was actually able to hold the vane in place.

Regarding the hose airflow I checked the hose for obstruction before testing and have tested it briefly before getting somewhere around 115.


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Post# 417066 , Reply# 38   12/9/2019 at 03:11 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Do you have a bag that has the original cloth fill tube to compare to the "Kirby" fill tube bag?This is a good idea to repair bag fill tubes that are worn.When I helped remodel my friends home years ago the cloth fill tube was torn up from nails,cable staples,romex strippings and even a piece of unstripped romex .Found these in the bag-at the time did not use a paper bag-just the cloth one.Had to go to Winchester,Va to get a replacement cloth bag and a pack of paper bags.My friend payed for them.Use a paper bag in the new cloth bag to clean out his fireplaces-worked well!!!Put the paper bag in the metal trash can in case of live ashes.Those can withstand trips thru a vacuum!!The NSS cloth fill tubes can't with stand hard stuff ingested by the fan.The new Grey bags have a different cloth fill tube.Would like to see NSS use rigid fill tubes-like the Kirbys.So-when a cloth fill tube goes in one of my NSS bags will try a Kirby fill tube.And you can use the bag alone without the paper bag if desired-good for heavy bulk pickup.The NSS did better than the mans Craftsman shop vacuum in picking up stuff.Also bought a power nozzle for the NSS from the Winchester VA place and my friend loved used the NSS(he calls it"THE BAG"! The powernozzle pulled up all kinds of stuff from the carpets.Paper bag was full!!Those can hold several gallons of debris.

Post# 417068 , Reply# 39   12/9/2019 at 08:01 by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Bag

blackheart's profile picture
No, I don't have an original bag/filltube for it.




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