Thread Number: 36836
/ Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
More Airflow Tests Part II |
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Post# 394048   6/29/2018 at 20:00 (2,127 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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The other thread is getting a little long.
I've learned that F+G bags are quite restrictive. I believe this is due to their paper filltubes, they are too easily crushed or folded which create causes a loss of flow. To test this idea I took took two measurements One where the F+G bag was outside of the zippered bag and another while it's in the zippered bag. I also got a 3rd measurement where the filltube was unintentionally crushed and the flow was very limited (55.49) I found this unit roadside and couldn't leave it behind. It had a chipped fan and a seized brushroll. Since i've got connections with one of the local shops I fixed it for under $15. Is it normal for these "Blender motor" units hoods' to get really warm/hot? the motor turns freely. I think the problem here is the cardboard diverter just doesn't do it's job. I barely feel any air coming from the top vent. If anyone has a good solution to this I'd like to know about it. It's a nice budget machine it's a true shame that Eureka no longer makes them or the 1934B that replaced them.
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Post# 394332 , Reply# 1   7/4/2018 at 07:55 (2,122 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Here is my Nilfisk GM80 results.
cfm from the canister is huge 149 cfm with the HEPA bag. Sadly the hose causes major drop to the 101 cfm I tested the shorter/thicker Philips hose and got 117 cfm Motor uses 1345 watts. Motor is 2-stage and very large for a household vacuum. This would be extremely good with the large diameter hose. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK |
Post# 394362 , Reply# 2   7/5/2018 at 00:20 (2,122 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 394475 , Reply# 3   7/7/2018 at 11:23 (2,119 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Sorry my late answer.
With the Nilfisk it's important to choose the right type. You can get GM80 with the GMI or GMD motor. GMI is the industrial motor. Nilfisk GM80 is still available new almost unchanged, but the new model has the small 700 watt one stage motor. You can see my GM80 motor in the picture. Mike |
Post# 394476 , Reply# 4   7/7/2018 at 12:00 (2,119 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 394641 , Reply# 5   7/10/2018 at 17:57 (2,116 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 395234 , Reply# 6   7/18/2018 at 18:34 (2,108 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I'm kind of surprised by it. It seems to be able to lift rug edges despite it's low waterlift. I just finished putting it back together today and the area I had attempted to mend cracked right back open. It doesn't impact performance but the handle is constantly pushed back.
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Post# 395386 , Reply# 8   7/21/2018 at 04:05 (2,105 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I just typed over the letters in a lighter font it's pretty good considering it uses a 3 amp handvac motor. I honestly think someone should bring this design back make it a little more robust and it'd be a winner.
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Post# 395388 , Reply# 9   7/21/2018 at 06:44 (2,105 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)   |   | |
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And make a metal version like the full sized metal Royal uprights.This would be nice for commercial cleaners that have to work in small quarters-like a place full of desks and such.I would even buy one!!!Also it can be used in RV's and campers. |
Post# 395459 , Reply# 10   7/22/2018 at 17:57 (2,104 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Meet the Hoover Savvy, this particular model has two counter rotating brushrolls and when new it would have come with one cup for bagged use and one for bagless (standard Hoover twin chamber style) I only received the bagged cup which takes Hoover Y bags. The lid to the cup was missing and after doing some searching I finally got a replacement. Even with a proper lid I can't help but feel as though this unit is brought down by it's own design the exhaust vent is rather small and the air comes out rather forcefully. the resistance from this also causes air to shoot out the back of it where the internal wiring runs, which is right next to the airpath. I did include the edge groomers in the nozzle width bringing it to 15.25" wide.
I was going to take to suction measurements too but unfortunately I dropped my waterlift guage last night breaking the plastic cover and throwing the measurements off. it reads at about 10 in a neutral position now. |
Post# 396222 , Reply# 11   8/4/2018 at 20:21 (2,091 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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A step backwards for Tristar! I didn't try to measure the machine inlet as it's clip locations leak a lot. I've heard the new JEI motors are better, The Mg1 and Mg2 were unfortunate enough to receive the vm3 motor. I also tried the working waterlift guage and got a little over 40 at the hose and got about 8" of working waterlift at the base with a 1/2" opening
A few new measurements will be coming this week including: Royal powercast Ry9200, A bissell easyvac stick vac, a dirt devil deluxe and some dirt devil handvacs. |
Post# 396290 , Reply# 12   8/5/2018 at 19:57 (2,090 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Well.....I expected more from it given how other collectors talk about them. This unit is a 30 lb monstrosity it's figures are good, yes, but i was hoping for airflow over 110. It's filter was removed and it's got a Royal L Hepa bag fitted into it. I cannot imagine that bag is causing any problems compared to the Dirt devil U bags that were known to burst. I had to use some electrical tape to get the figures there's a plastic sheath that fits over the aluminum housing which is where the bumper would sit there is a gap between the housing and the sheath which caused a major leak when i attempted to seal it with the panels.
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Post# 396301 , Reply# 13   8/5/2018 at 23:24 (2,090 days old) by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)   |   | |
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Post# 396306 , Reply# 14   8/6/2018 at 00:57 (2,090 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)   |   | |
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Sort of disappointing for the amount of power this thing draws!We have seen better from cleaners that draw LESS power. |
Post# 396592 , Reply# 15   8/10/2018 at 23:10 (2,085 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Here is my first test I did my riccar rsl4 it has 2 speeds
Vacuum nozzle is 1.75 in x 10.5 inch. That makes nozzle area 18.375. The conversion factor for my annimometer .034880 I got 7007 reading on high speed so 7007 x .034880 is 244.40 cfm. That with my airflow box test. I dont think it's quite right. I figure it's going to get 160 cfm. I've done my sentria I got nozzle test 160-180 cfm and airflow box I got 133 cfm. I have a tradition with tune up nozzle cfm was 155 airbox 128 vfm. I put my bag conversion that is 2.75 in fill tube. My royal ry4001 end of hose I got 118. My sanitare s667a I got 126 128. My 560 and 562 I got 113-118 cfm. My tradition with 12 ft hose was 82 cfm. The 7 foot hose I didn't get good seal. My 505 rebuild got 102 cfm its basically everything replaced. I have a Kirby Omega I'll test see if it's similar to tradition. The numbers might be off. I'll do them again. I know how to get nozzle service area airflow density I'm not sure how to get the same waterlift. I don't understand why watts are used instead of amps. I say because watts is not saying much except flow of electricity. Amps are power of motor. Watts don't mean much without power. Les sorry no pics It was first time. Les |
Post# 396742 , Reply# 17   8/14/2018 at 07:44 (2,081 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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What I usually do is look at the inner diameter of the detector, since all the airflow will be directed through that opening. The inner "hole" might be ever so slightly bigger than just the vanes themselves.
But the rest of your calculations appear to be spot on. 1) Get the inner diameter 2) Convert the diameter to feet, the cut the number in half for the radius 3) Area = 3.141 x Radius x Radius 4) CFM = (Ft. / Min.) x Area As the last few years have rolled by, it has always given me great joy to see others making their own airflow/suction boxes and posting airflow measurements. These CFM measurements are absolutely critical in determining how well a machine can clean when paired with appropriate agitation. Manufacturers, by and large, will never reliably reveal CFM so we must test and post our own results. Devin, As always, KEEP GOING my friend! You come across more machines than I do. Bill |
Post# 396743 , Reply# 18   8/14/2018 at 08:00 (2,081 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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That RSL4 obviously. Can you re-test? I think Devin tested a similar model awhile back and got around 91 nozzle CFM on high speed.
So if 91 CFM on high is correct, instead of: "I got 7007 reading on high speed so 7007 x .034880 is 244.40 cfm." You should see around 2600 ft./min. on your meter. If you really did get 7000 ft/min, your anemometer would literally be screaming in pain as mine did when I got 208 CFM from the motor intake (not nozzle) on high speed in my Sentria II video. Bill |
Post# 396970 , Reply# 20   8/19/2018 at 16:50 (2,076 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I'm surprised by this i honestly though it's flow would be as good if not better than the marquis given it's shorter airpath. I attempted to take suction readings at the bag chamber but the cardboard bag frame leaks when suction at the main port is sealed off. I also lack a proper hose which would allow me to get a good suction reading. I did take a reading at the base hose when it was apart for service but I didn't have the hepa bags when i did that. It's amazing how much flow was lost going from that tube to the nozzle itself as well as waterlift the suction was ok from that hose nothing great though.
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Post# 396972 , Reply# 21   8/19/2018 at 16:55 (2,076 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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That's very odd....They did change the fan from the RSL line to the new R/S10S and up line but the old R/S10E still uses the old fan. I recall trying the "wand" test with both models and the newer style did pull the wand away. this is very interesting and I'm going to have to test that too I know the shop i worked for has a Used S3600 which i think was the equivalent of the RSL4.
More machines to come! unfortunately i've been rather slow with my restorations. |
Post# 397020 , Reply# 22   8/20/2018 at 12:52 (2,075 days old) by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)   |   | |
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Post# 397038 , Reply# 23   8/20/2018 at 19:43 (2,075 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Well i tried a used 3600 and it's motor was not in the best of shape i only got 67.28 CFM from it. Then i got the idea to measure the S10E which uses the same fan and motor as the older freedoms then i did one of the newer S10 series machines with the new fan and strangely i got a lower result than last time and i couldn't figure out why but there's two factors that could have effected the S10D's flow #1 the metal rollers when brand new have additional resistance until it "breaks in" due to a seals meaning the motor could have been spinning slightly slower. #2 I was using a different Vane on the same anemometer. The weirdest part to me though is that the S10S and up line produces more flow with a fan with fewer blades. In a way it makes sense though the outer part of the fan is going to reach the highest speed and on the old ones the highest point is towards the center with the new one the peak is towards the outside of the fan. so that portion which displaces the most air is traveling the fastest on the S10S+ line.
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Post# 397039 , Reply# 24   8/20/2018 at 19:46 (2,075 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I've been told they had superior flow but their hose power always seemed weaker to me, doing this though shows me that they have more flow at the base than the old versions do according to Bill's symmetry I didn't have all my tools on me or enough time to do it thoroughly but here's another
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Post# 397040 , Reply# 25   8/20/2018 at 19:50 (2,075 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Ah the ultra premium using a 2 stage motor and having an additional year of warranty over the S20P it's two steps up from the previously tested S20D
The first weird thing i noticed was that this had less hose power than the S20D. Looking at it more closed showed that this has a different hose on it one that is more supple and stretchable but it may have deeper ridges to it which would make it's interior diameter smaller. I'm not sure what went wrong at the nozzle for some reason it's loss was much more significant than the S20D, but i re-tested it once and found a similar result. I didn't have the time to do a more thorough test or to inspect it's base for the cause of the loss.
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Post# 397041 , Reply# 26   8/20/2018 at 20:03 (2,075 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Another partial test really. They also have a smaller headed 1200xp which i'd assume would be just as powerful just with a smaller cleaning path. I'd assume it's brushroll cavity to be the same size as a lux so it's airflow density could be guessed at 2.77CFM/in²
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Post# 397538 , Reply# 27   8/30/2018 at 17:25 (2,065 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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This time a Eurekalux, ever since I've tried one of these in a local hardware chain i've wanted one. It's power is in line with other high end canisters.
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Post# 397874 , Reply# 28   9/7/2018 at 14:40 (2,057 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Here is my AEG / Electrolux Precision BrushRoll Clean I got 76 nozzle cfm what is the highest what I have seen for a bagless vacuum. It has a diverter valve, so when the floorhead is in use air doesn't go through the hose. In the US it has 12 amp motor.
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Post# 400612 , Reply# 29   11/9/2018 at 17:37 (1,994 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Here's a higher end Dirt devil vision. It has a Dirt sensor and even a clutch system for the brush control i'm kind of amazed that a Dirt Devil has these features. I was told the owner never changed the main filter, It's a cleanstream filter so i washed it it and replaced the pleated after filter It's in surprisingly good shape for it's age and brand. The belt area accounts for nearly 2" of the nozzle width which is much too wide IMO.
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Post# 404710 , Reply# 30   1/27/2019 at 14:58 (1,915 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Picked this up from a thrift store to test it. It has a new hepa bag a new hepa filter and the unit was cleaned out the motor was about 5" in diameter. The results are pretty mediocre. Yes the suction is actually that weak at the nozzle granted my panels may not seal as tightly as other testers but there was a lot of air leaking around the nozzle's housing.
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Post# 404744 , Reply# 31   1/28/2019 at 13:14 (1,914 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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And please keep posting!
Buwahaha! Jeez, I gotta stop typing that.....
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Post# 404752 , Reply# 32   1/28/2019 at 15:50 (1,914 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 404756 , Reply# 33   1/28/2019 at 17:26 (1,914 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 404761 , Reply# 34   1/28/2019 at 19:40 (1,914 days old) by S2_82 (Ohio)   |   | |
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Hey devin, have you ever tested any riccar brilliance models or latest aerus upright for airflow tests? Just curious |
Post# 404778 , Reply# 35   1/29/2019 at 01:37 (1,914 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 404789 , Reply# 36   1/29/2019 at 11:04 (1,913 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I did test a Simplicity Synchrony and got 88 base CFM, I got 99 from a Synergy. I thought they'd score a little better than that, but they're still excellent cleaners IMO.
I have not measured the latest Aerus. I think the most current model I measured was a Legacy (3000) which used the VM3 motor. I hate the VM3 though so I have since replaced that. |
Post# 404879 , Reply# 38   1/31/2019 at 17:57 (1,911 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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This was the machine I thought was as powerful as the Lux platinum I put initial readings on a post it note and mistook my body reading for a hose reading. I will say it's suction is kind of hard to measure as with some tub vacuums the gauge's needle shakes for some reason I used the max value as it's suction rating.
I was looking for a quiet canister for the daytime cleaning of an office area and I considered this and a Numatic James. I did decide on James due to my familiarity with Numatic's products. Then curiosity set in and I ordered this machine as there was a nice condition "used" machine on ebay. I'm thinking this machine is nearly new as the box had return center labels. There may be an upcoming video comparing this machine to James (with Henry acting as a stand in as James is at work)
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Post# 405605 , Reply# 39   2/17/2019 at 18:01 (1,894 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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This time a Model 112b. I just finished cleaning the unit out today. I should add I did include all the dead space as part of the nozzle width as i usually do include that on other machines.
I'm also going to be running a week long test to see how Filter Queen retains airflow. I'll probably measure hose CFM day to day as getting set up for nozzle measurements is a pain but i'll probably take one the final day.
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Post# 405619 , Reply# 40   2/17/2019 at 23:26 (1,894 days old) by rivstg1 (colorado springs)   |   | |
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Post# 406089 , Reply# 41   2/28/2019 at 11:09 (1,883 days old) by holeefuk (Chai-nar qualitee...anything more = ip theft)   |   | |
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i am use alternative methodology for measurement and able reconcile back to other data points and Anemometer methodology. ultra bag half full, filters low mileage.
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Post# 406280 , Reply# 42   3/4/2019 at 09:47 (1,879 days old) by Holeefuk (Chai-nar qualitee...anything more = ip theft)   |   | |
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I measure 92cfm on my 2001 Simplicity7
other data points and methodology with comparable vacuum this pull about 100CFM at the hose use Anemometer. Does 1.15" reducer nozzle adapt for a 2"+ Anemometer probe skew the result? 10% CFM drop in unloaded versus 7/8" orifice loaded. that's quite impressive and show the power of dual fan |
Post# 407545 , Reply# 43   4/3/2019 at 10:10 (1,849 days old) by holeefuk (Chai-nar qualitee...anything more = ip theft)   |   | |
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I measure 104cfm at body and 87cfm at hose on a 20 year old Sebo Canister.
Measured use new X ultrabag and old hospital grade filter (red) i clean out. A new HEPA filter (yellow) reduced a couple CFM as comparison. I fill old paperbag full with this vacuum and it reduce performance 15-20%; not sure how ultrabags cope. I cut open the paperbag and all layers clogged. I think if add backup oring seal to hose/handle and it will pull 90+, new hose or nonelectric hose. Appears comparable to current model D4. I think D4 should maintain performance with full bag from top suction path design. D4 have taper hose advantage too. |
Post# 407750 , Reply# 44   4/7/2019 at 19:58 (1,845 days old) by ridgidwd0670 (se wood co ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 407756 , Reply# 45   4/7/2019 at 23:21 (1,845 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 407757 , Reply# 46   4/7/2019 at 23:36 (1,845 days old) by Holeefuk (Chai-nar qualitee...anything more = ip theft)   |   | |
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www.thinkvacuums.com/cent...
There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Anemometer gm8901 measures air velocity directly and then is converted to CFM. You could get to the same answer with a vacuum gauge and properly sized restrictor plate. The vacuum gauge will also allow you to measure sealed suction. |
Post# 407776 , Reply# 47   4/8/2019 at 15:35 (1,844 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 407783 , Reply# 48   4/8/2019 at 18:57 (1,844 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Your talking hose end I was measuring at the beginning. I believe it was around 100 cfm at end. It may have been 120 ish my royal backpack was 118 the c9 was 123. At the hose beginning. But 100 or high 90s at hose end. That the 7 ft crush proof no leak brand new hose. I am finishing my c8 tommorow. I have brand new motor and basically everything is brand new. I took entire bag off measuring air flow. Well the bag upside down on lid sealing lid and not blocking air.
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Post# 407856 , Reply# 49   4/10/2019 at 03:29 (1,843 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 407892 , Reply# 50   4/10/2019 at 20:47 (1,842 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Mike your vacuums seem to have more power than over here in United States. I'm going to build another airflow box. I had a 12x2.5 in opening in top. What is diameter of your opening.
My prior box had 2 gas lead blowers and a shiz ton of vacuum items smash it up. I'm going to build a rectangle box to go inside box and not collapse. Thanks I did my tests I want to say a few months ago but it's more like 6 months so my numbers are off memory there were precise but I didn't write them down so it's memory. I hope to back up words I spew. Thanks Les |
Post# 407923 , Reply# 51   4/11/2019 at 10:33 (1,841 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Yes it is slightly more powerful than the US models.
My airflow box opening for the GM 8901 anemometer is 58 millimeters (2.28″). Nozzle opening is 25 x 5 centimeters (9.84" x 1.96")
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Post# 407946 , Reply# 52   4/11/2019 at 22:10 (1,841 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Here is Vorwerk VK 135 results after replacing the dirty hepa filter. Unusually high cfm for a clean air vacuum. I think key for the results is the simple airpath. Internal pipe goes straight to the bag without any tight bends. Power usage is slightly over 1000 watts.
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Post# 407964 , Reply# 53   4/12/2019 at 13:32 (1,840 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 407986 , Reply# 54   4/12/2019 at 19:26 (1,840 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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It's made from the plywood. Top part is stronger waterproof plywood. It's hold gather with screws and construction glue.
On top of the opening it has glued down cardboard to make the nozzle are slightly higher, but this step is not necessary. Seal is the key. Otherwise measuring results are not accurate. I hope this helps. |
Post# 407990 , Reply# 55   4/12/2019 at 20:12 (1,840 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Yes seal is key. I have plywood it's thicker plywood. I'd either use my spray foam insulation. I'm probably going to take ansmomter to parts store and get PVC pipe same diameter and glue in front of box so no air loss. I would make sure no air leaks anywhere. Sealing durability and accuracy are top priorities. There is a PVC adaptor I'd use plumber's glue and the PVC pipe would be air only go through the PVC pipe. I'm glad I asked I'll post it when I have it finished. It will be accurate and durable.
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Post# 408014 , Reply# 56   4/13/2019 at 13:38 (1,839 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Recently acquired this from Hoover300, thanks again. I've not seen too many victory style machines in recent years. One of my friends' families had a red model when I was younger, so I've always been curious to know whether or not they were good machines. It did better than I expected it to it didn't seem like it had much power from the hose and it definitely leaks as when you place your hand over the hose you still have air blowing from the exhaust.
All that said it's a decent machine. It has more flow than most bagless machines despite being 18 years old.
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Post# 408467 , Reply# 57   4/22/2019 at 18:55 (1,830 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I did these a while ago and I forgot to take some measurements like wattage and suction. I see that I wrote 36.98 CFm for hose airflow and 6" for hose suction on this model.
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Post# 408468 , Reply# 58   4/22/2019 at 18:57 (1,830 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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46.21 CFM from the hose no suction rating in my book but I think it was somewhere between 8 and 10 these have a little more power than the 2 amp version and had the bag tube built in.
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Post# 408469 , Reply# 59   4/22/2019 at 18:59 (1,830 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I'll have to get my stuff out and do my metal Royal prince vac too. I figured I should get this posted as this machine is going to the thrift store. It's just....annoying sounding, and the hose is nearly useless.
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Post# 408479 , Reply# 60   4/22/2019 at 21:06 (1,830 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 409084 , Reply# 61   5/4/2019 at 09:44 (1,818 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Running off old notes can be a problem. After suction testing this machine I was very confused as to how it could surpass the higher amp dirt devils. I'm going to guess the 6 I got from the 103 was a nozzle suction number re-testing both dirt Devils the 103 scored 14" and the 3 amp M08100 scored 20"
As for the difference. Well, compared to the 103, it's metal, the exhaust airpath is much more open, it's rated for 1.8 amps vs 2, the bags are an open mouth design, I think the cord is longer but I can't be bothered to measure it, the baseplate removes without tools the 103 has two screws, the fan design appears to be different. Now on the testing portion I was thrown off that the hose airflow surpassed the nozzle airflow, I tested the nozzle multiple times and attempted to rebuild the brushroll in hopes that it would raise it's number The highest I could get with the brushroll on was 1634 FPM, I tried taking the belt off and it went up to 1830 FPM The hose was an even 1800 FPM, I don't really know what to make of that but *shrugs* it is what it is.
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Post# 409096 , Reply# 62   5/4/2019 at 21:24 (1,818 days old) by rivstg1 (colorado springs)   |   | |
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