Thread Number: 18839
PN Canister vs Bypass Upright
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Post# 207343   11/21/2012 at 18:12 (2,691 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
For the past two months I have been using my Eureka Express with VGIII to maintain our new, medium-pile white carpeting. I never considered the Express to have much airflow in the first place, but the bag is filling quickly, and defiantly lossing airflow Yesterday I noticed some definitive traffic areas/paths were already present and decided to dry clean those areas with some Host. Before doing so, I thoroughly vacuumed with my 2010 Hoover T-Series. To my surprise, the Hoover picked up very little dirt. The Express had been keeping the carpet quite clean!

If you had asked me a week ago whether a bypass upright would outclean a PN canister, I would have said yes. I would have though the extra weight on the cleaning head would aid in the sweeping, but it seems that is not case. Why do you think this is? Is it just that the Vibra Groomer is superior to generic TTI brush rolls? Would this be different if I used something like Kenmore Progressive with a wooden brush roll? Why is that much little grit was present, yet the carpet was visibly dirty? Almost no moisture has ever touched this carpet.

I await your responses.





Post# 207348 , Reply# 1   11/21/2012 at 19:18 (2,691 days old) by KirbyUltimateG (Troy Ohio 45373 USA)        

In my opinion, I believe that dirty fan uprights are best for cleaning carpets and I believe that canisters are best for cleaning hard floors and above floor cleaning. I am just old fashioned.


Post# 207352 , Reply# 2   11/21/2012 at 19:43 (2,691 days old) by director12 ()        

Well the T-Series is a fake Hoover, and it ain't as good as the older Hoovers.

Post# 207357 , Reply# 3   11/21/2012 at 20:31 (2,691 days old) by vacuumalex ()        
Thread Number: 18839 PN Canister vs Bypass Upright

I had a similar experience with a Compact C7 with a power nozzle and a top of the line Fuller Brush bypass upright. Needless to say, no comparison really. The Fuller Brush picked up fairly, but it was outcleaned by the Compact hands down. The power nozzle on the Compact which is over thirty years older, pulled my carpet's knap up really well, much better than the Fuller Brush ever did; even after switching out the roller's brushes to the more aggressive stiffer ones. The Compact pulls up the knap up almost as well as my Royal Everlast and that is saying something, considering the poor shape that my carpet is in. I don't know, I'm not much of a fan of the bypass machines. Most of the bypasses that I've used can't compare to a good canister and or a dirty fan upright.

Post# 207358 , Reply# 4   11/21/2012 at 20:31 (2,691 days old) by vacuumalex ()        
Thread Number: 18839 PN Canister vs Bypass Upright



Post# 207359 , Reply# 5   11/21/2012 at 20:32 (2,691 days old) by vacuumalex ()        
Thread Number: 18839 PN Canister vs Bypass Upright



Post# 207367 , Reply# 6   11/21/2012 at 22:01 (2,691 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
It Depends

blackheart's profile picture
The Express has a crushproof hose which is smoother for better airflow the T series is at a disadvantage really the wire enforced hose stretch hose will cut down it's airflow and the cyclones also seem to cut down airflow I think.
If the upright either had a large tube leading to the floor nozzle such as the Eureka Smartvac or Dirt Devil Ultra MVP, or had a short hose (pansonic jet flo) i think the upright would probably be the better performer


Post# 207396 , Reply# 7   11/22/2012 at 01:11 (2,691 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        
Canisters are great cleaners.

durango159's profile picture
Many Clean Air Design uprights have the air path on the far side opposite the belt. Therefore airflow is not even and consistent across the entire width. However with an aggressive brush roll such as with the Hoover and high airflow you would still have a very clean carpet. The Hoover Windtunnel series do an excellent job cleaning and some models do better than others. A lot is due to the brush roll. The T Series has a few different agitator designs depending on the model. There are several models to Hoover's T Series. Is your bagged or bagless, does it have brush roll shut off?

As I'm sure you aware: Hoover, Royal, and Dirt Devil are owned by TTI Floorcare. Since that time many of their products have been shared amongst the brands. If the bristle tufts are touching each other on your agitator then you have a Dirt Devil style agitator. If you have tufts with about an 1/8" inch gap between and is auger shaped then you have a Hoover style agitator. In my opinion the Hoover style will clean better.

At the same time, it has been shown that several canister vacuums on the market clean just as well if not out clean many uprights on the market. Yes the power heads are lightweight but with higher CFMs from a larger suction motor, and centralized suction duct inside the nozzle the power nozzles clean very well. It really depends on the unit as some agitators are more aggressive than others and some motors are more powerful than others.

Kenmore style power nozzles with the wooden chevron style brushrolls are made by a company known as Cen-Tec Systems. www.centeccommercialvacuums.com... There are 4 primary models all with similar brush roll.
The old style squared style with full width headlight and wide rear wheels slightly inside a few inches from the base is model CT14DX. This model is also the same nozzle found on Hayden central vacs, older Panasonic canisters, and some Royal Power tank canisters. Some offer a different top hood design but the guts are the same. This nozzle used to come with 2 rows of replaceable brush strips and single row beater bar.

The next series used by Kenmore was on their first Progressive canister back in the late 1990's then in later years it was found on the BOL models. It is a squared off front--not a T design, large plastic wheels on very ends in rear and sleek rounded off center headlight. This is Centec model CT18DX. It is currently found on all current market Panasonic canisters.

The next model is what Kenmore is using on the majority of their units. CT20DX. T shaped sleek design power nozzle. Low profile, rear wheels are rubber coated and on very edge of sides. It is on current Kenmore Lime Green, Orange, White and Blueberry models, along with several central vacuum systems under various manufacturer names. Pictured below is the agitator cavity of a CT20DXQD

The next model is considered Cen-Tec's TOL it is a hybrid barefloor brush built into the power head, that removes from the powerhead via a step on quick disconnect. Model CT24DQ. This model is found on the TOL dark blue Kenmore Intuition canister.
All of the Centec nozzles uses the same agitator design, the difference may be cogged or serpentine belt, different end caps for various models. They are all 14" width. Years ago Kenmore also used a CenTec CT12DX power nozzle. A 12" wide power nozzle with stretch belt and headlight, centralized belt path similar to a Rainbos. Cen-Tec also manufacturers a few other power nozzles but the Quiet Drive series which is the 4 models above is what they're known for the most. The motors are good--quiet,powerful and reliable. The agitator brushes in my opinion are good design but would be better if bristles were longer. I also don't feel the carpet height adjustment allows the unit to hug the carpet as tight as it should.

Your Eureka Express canister most likely has a VGIII agitator with beater bars and blue colored replaceable brush strips. These are great agitators. The units themselves are well designed excellent cleaning power nozzle. Many experts recommend these power nozzles. Yes they're lower priced units with stretch belts and no motor protection and no manual height adjustment but they're great cleaners and probably the best for that price range on the market. Yes this power head is still manufactured today with a few tweaks. You'll see it branded as a "Sweep n Groom" with out headlight and also the Beam Rugmaster power nozzle for their Central vacuum systems.

Sorry for the "Book". I love power nozzle canisters and wish you lots of luck with your Express canister. What other canister vacs do you own?



Post# 207422 , Reply# 8   11/22/2012 at 10:25 (2,690 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        
Excellent information!

bagintheback's profile picture
It seems my T-Series is quite a flawed machine! I own one of the original models: UH70120. Basic & bagless, but I always thought highly of it. I pulled it out after reading your information and it does indeed have a Dirt Devil brush roll. The hose is wire-enforced and far from smooth. I'm surprised I did not think of that before. The Express does have an advantage in airflow.

Durango159-I had no idea Cen-Tec was the manufacturer for all those PNs. I thought Panasonic built them in-house and had them relabeled for other companies. Good to know. To answer your question, the only other canisters I own are a Hoover Celebrity QS and Hoover Dimension 1000. The Dimension is in need of repair, but I love the Celebrity and the Quadraflex PN. The suction motor is especially powerful; you can feel the PN hug the carpet.

Thanks everybody for your responses.


Post# 207470 , Reply# 9   11/22/2012 at 22:01 (2,690 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        

durango159's profile picture
If you go tothe following link for Cen-Tec you can see all of their power nozzles.

If you're thinking about another upright I would still consider a Hoover. You can look at the Hoover Windtunnel T bagged series and also Hoover Windtunnel Bagged Max. Many of those I believe are supposed to have Hoover auger agitators. But you'd have to look at exact models in stores. If you want Direct air then you may want to look at the Sams Club model Hoover Decade commercial for $139.98 or Hoover Professional series or keep checking Craigslist and eBay for various machines.You may want to contact Guardsman69 on here he is the Hoover expert and knows the ins and outs of all machines.

As far as canisters, YOU ARE IN EXCELLENT SHAPE!! Recently at a Minimeet we put a suction meter on several vacuums and the Hoover Celebrity QS was the best. Granted a Hoover Dimension 1000 was not present. But with your Celebrity, Dimension 1000, and Express you have 3 awesome vacuums. If you were up to trying something new you may look towards a Miele Calisto or similar with SEB228 head. In addition a Riccar Impeccable, Simplicity Verve or similar models. The CenTec heads are neat as well and very quiet and Panasonics original tool set is hard to beat with the exception of the bare floor tool. So a Panasonic MCCG902 could be enjoyable for you to try as well. The MCCG902 has on/off for entire machine and power nozzle on hose handle. The wand fitting is universal, so most manufacturers friction lock tools would work as I don't like the Kenmore/ Panasonic bare floor brush. Despite the red MCCG902 not coming with a PowerMate Jr, the hose will work one. So you could get a Powermate Jr. on eBay or elsewhere and use that on the machine as well.

However a warning with my experience of Hoover vs. Kenmore canisters. I myself love most canister vacuums. I grew up with Hoovers. In trying Kenmore/ Panasonic styles I've only found them "ok" as far as cleaning ability and convenience. I've also heard the same of those growing up with Kenmores. They try a Hoover and don't like the lack of on/off switch on handle, and also the button lock. This is essentially what I've heard and my own experiences is that its sort of the Hoover style or Kenmore style but many who love one are only ok with the other and don't really like it.

****Pictured below is one of John Long's--"Gottahaveahoover" Hoover Celebrity canisters. It had the best suction of several vacs tested at his Halloween Minimeet.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Durango159's LINK


Post# 207471 , Reply# 10   11/22/2012 at 22:07 (2,690 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        

durango159's profile picture
To my knowledge Panasonic manufactured their own power nozzle for the 2 generations of Panasonic Jet Flo canisters. The first generation being a design similar to the picture below. The second generation Jet Flo consisted of models similar to the one in the attached YouTube video link.

During this time Kenmore had power nozzle canisters being manufactured with CenTec CT14DX power nozzles. After the JetFlo Panasonic changed the design of their canisters to be modeled almost exactly based off the Kenmores. Power nozzles were switched to CenTec along with same attachments as Kenmore. Some vac shops claim that the Panasonic ones had stronger more reliable motors but with out opening one up myself I wouldn't be able to tell that information.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Durango159's LINK


Post# 207473 , Reply# 11   11/22/2012 at 22:47 (2,690 days old) by KirbyUltimateG (Troy Ohio 45373 USA)        

In my opinion, Only the Hoover Quadraflex PN canisters, The Eureka Vibra Groomer III PN canisters, The Kenmore Double Brush and Beater Bar PN canisters offer excellent deep carpet cleaning! :)


Post# 207474 , Reply# 12   11/22/2012 at 22:50 (2,690 days old) by KirbyUltimateG (Troy Ohio 45373 USA)        

I currently have two PN canisters. I have the Hoover Dimension 1000 and the Eureka Express. I used to have a 1995 Kenmore Whispertone Double Brush and Beater Bar PN canister.


Post# 207494 , Reply# 13   11/23/2012 at 11:22 (2,689 days old) by fan-of-fans (USA)        

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I've used several different Kenmore power nozzles over the years. The 1970s and 80s ones we had were built by Whirlpool and used the double brush and beater bar brushroll that was painted black.

I'm not sure when the CenTec CT14DX was introduced, but I believe it was around 1988 on TOL Kenmore canisters. I believe I heard about 1990 was when Whirlpool sold their vacuum division to Panasonic and they took over production.

The CenTec CT14DX used a variety of brushrolls during its run on Kenmore canisters. The first ones were the double brush beater bar. At some point they changed to a simpler style brushroll that was still black with no beater bar and non-replaceable bristles. Those kinds of brushrolls are in my mother's 1999 Whispertone. They still had metal end bearings. Probably about 2001 when the jellybean style Whispertones came out, the CT14DX was still used but went to the woodgrain brushroll and probably plastic end bearings if it hadn't already.

The CT12DX was used on the lower end swivel hose canisters that typically had no cover over the attachments. I recall another central belt version that was flat on top and had no light, which was on the very BOL model with front hose and cord wrap in the early '90s.


Post# 207504 , Reply# 14   11/23/2012 at 15:53 (2,689 days old) by vacu-finder ()        
Durango159

"Many Clean Air Design uprights have the air path on the far side opposite the belt."

Uuuuummmmmm..this is why you make multiple passes while Vacuuming the carpet, so the power head does not go over the same spot. It all evens out in the end even though the machine has air flow on opposite side.


Post# 207531 , Reply# 15   11/23/2012 at 23:34 (2,689 days old) by DURANGO159 (State College, PA)        

durango159's profile picture
Yes I know that most clean air design and also many fan first machines all have air path on far side from belt:
Hoover Windtunnels-- Clean air design, hose inlet far side
Hoover Elites, Dimensions, Legacys, Caddy Vacs, Eureka Bravos, World Vacs, Powerlines-- all fan first machines. Motor fan located up far side from belt.
All Bissell Clean air uprights
Panasonic Jet Flo canister vacuum MC9520, MC9527, MC9537, etc. series to include reversible agitator machines-- suction port at far side of nozzle leading to hose which led back to nozzle elbow.
Eureka Clean Air Altimas, etc.

This is a microscopic list of all the TONS of contemporary style machines where suction is not located in the middle. But still the point is that suction is stronger on side where suction comes into machine. This is another reason why Direct Air Sanitaires, Hoover Guardsman and Convertibles, Kirbys and Royal uprights perform so well on carpet cleaning.

As a professional house cleaner, I know to make multiple relaxed speed passes. But many consumers do not make multiple passes and the passes they make are too rapid. Also as many newer style uprights and canisters have numerous support bars on the agitator cavity where brush doesn't reach I always make sure to manuever the machine just slightly on passes to get that area groomed as well. ***See Eureka Altima below as example. Vacuums need time to sweep and suck up all of the dirt, dust, sand and other harmful grit that gets stomped to the bottom of the carpet pile to destroy fibers throughout the week.


Post# 207535 , Reply# 16   11/24/2012 at 01:58 (2,689 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        
Dirt stomping into your carpet

Fun fact----did you know you exert more pounds per square in on a surface than a crawler tractor does-IE the tractors weight is distributed over a greater area-but don't go driving your crawler tractor over your living room carpet!That is why dirt gets stompted into your flooring-your weight over a SMALL area!




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