Thread Number: 18414
Incontinent Gisowatt Hydra
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Post# 202361   9/30/2012 at 12:12 (2,745 days old) by catgate ()        

Hello from the depths of the East Riding.
It is rather damp around here today, largely because of a vacuum cleaner that can not hold its liquor. I do not think its incontinence is age/work related, (although it has "Date 0302" on the model identity label), because we only bought it about five years ago, to replace our Vax, and we have another turbo job that does the normal every day work.
It is not a new phenomenon, but it is one which recurs with a frequency which makes it a bit of a pain.
We always ensure that the correct amount of water is used (no less and no more) and yet it often manages to spew water out through the exhaust air filter orifices.
The "operator manual" is about as much use as a chocolate tea pot, although it must be admitted it is a wonderful thing if one want to not receive information in twenty different languages!!
The manual mentions a "safety float" and completely ignores the matter of its precise whereabouts, although it appears to have a thing which could go up and down with the tide, but somehow looks too ungainly to manage this.
So I have come to find out if any dwellers in Vacuumland have any suggestions to make as to how to stop this sort of thing or whether it is just one of the "built in benefits" of being a Gisowatt client.
Thank you in advance for all the wonderful advice I am expecting.





Post# 202364 , Reply# 1   9/30/2012 at 13:09 (2,745 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Welcome to the VacuumLand forums Catgate - I assume that you are in the UK (Hull area), unfortunately, not many members here are English, this is mainly an American forum and Gisowatt vacuums, being Italian, are not really that well known in either the US or the UK, I think most Americans use another brand called the Rainbow, which is essentially the same thing, being a water filtered vac.
I have had a search round on the web, and cant really find a lot out about these Gisowatt Hydra models, or indeed anyone that sells them here.
You may find that some of the American members may be able to assist who own Rainbows, but I dont know if Rainbow water vacs suffer from the problem that your Gisowatt does.
If you dont get many replies on this, its not that we are being ignorant, but many members may not have any experiences with Gisowatt water vacs.
I spent a while looking for any info on this, but as I say, info is limited, and I think much of it would be in Italian.
Just wondering, where did you purchase this vacuum from?


Post# 202374 , Reply# 2   9/30/2012 at 13:58 (2,745 days old) by kirbykid (Horseheads,New York 14845)        

do you have a warenty??? mostlikely they will send you a new one. apple did that whith my defective ipod

Post# 202389 , Reply# 3   9/30/2012 at 15:14 (2,745 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

KirbyKid - he bought it 5 years ago, and its unlikely it will have any warranty left after this time.
Is there anyone with a Rainbow out there that has the problem of water spitting out of the exhaust port? I'm sure the Gisowatt cant be that different in its design to the Rainbow?


Post# 202393 , Reply# 4   9/30/2012 at 15:41 (2,745 days old) by Trebor ()        
First question..

Is the Gisowatt a separator based machine? If not, the Rainbow, or any separator machine is unlikely to provide any clues.


Post# 202398 , Reply# 5   9/30/2012 at 16:08 (2,745 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

By seperator based do you mean does it use the water tank to seperate the dust from the airflow - I believe having looked at the Gisowatt website that the airflow is drawn through a 2.5L water reservoir to remove 99.99% of dust. I'm very interested in how these water based sepration machines work, as I've seen a few Rainbows come up for sale in the UK, and they seem very popluar in the US. From what I can gather, the Gisowatt is indeed a water based separation canister cleaner rather than just a standard wet and dry canister. I think we need the original poster to tell us more about how the Gisowatt is assembled to find out how it prevents water being drawn into the motor, which appears to be mounted above the water tank.

Post# 202399 , Reply# 6   9/30/2012 at 16:11 (2,745 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Another view of these mystery machines

Post# 202400 , Reply# 7   9/30/2012 at 16:34 (2,745 days old) by Trebor ()        
A separater based water filtration cleaner..

Has a dish like projection with flat bottom and parallel slits cut all the way around its circumference. The suction inlet pushes the water in the tank away from the inlet, and the spinning dish keeps the water out of the motor while the slits allow the air to pass through.  This dish is attached to the bottom of the motor shaft. All of them of which I am aware, save the Hyla GST, require periodic removal and cleaning. The dust laden water dries, leaving dust in the slits, eventually choking off the airflow. The Hyla claims to have a self-cleaning separator.

 

All other water filtration machines use some sort of baffle/filter arrangement


Post# 202408 , Reply# 8   9/30/2012 at 17:43 (2,745 days old) by kirbykid (Horseheads,New York 14845)        

oh. when i wrote that i had overlooked the fackt that he bought it 5 years ago

Post# 202415 , Reply# 9   9/30/2012 at 18:07 (2,745 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Just watched some utube vids of the Rainbow and I can see what you mean about the seperator, its like a small drum that is located on the underside of the motor section, with the vertical slits as you say. I'd imagine this spins very fast and throws any water away from entering the motor fan.
I would think that the Gisowatt may not use this technology, but if it does, then it would be possible for water to enter the motor fan if the seperator had fallen off or got lost somehow.
If it doesnt use a seperator, then it could have a missing or damaged baffle?
It would help if Catgate could post some pics of the internals of his cleaner so we could learn how the Gisowatt is supposed to keep the water splashes away from the motor fan inlet.
There's not a lot else I can suggest until we get more info on this cleaner.

Here's what the rainbow seperator looks like - the view is of the upper part of the cleaner from the bottom, with the tank removed. The seperator is in the centre and its spinning action keeps the water from entering the fan.

.


Post# 202474 , Reply# 10   10/1/2012 at 09:36 (2,744 days old) by catgate ()        

Well thank you for your interest so far,
I have taken some pictures and uploaded them onto vacuumland. All I have to do is get them into this message.
The first is the separator :-
01@Separator@CATGATE.jpg
The sucked up wind, dust and debris is directed to beneath the bottom of the separator into the water. The air is allowed to rise up through various gaps and holes and into the central space wherein sits the moor body and theoretically leaves behind ALL the water, dust and debris. The black rubber strip round the bottom of the separator is a token gesture towards keeping the water under the bottom of this component. However in view of the trough built into the top part of this component (between the outer wall and the central compartment for the motor assembly) Gisawatt seem to have recognised a potential problem.

It appears as though I can only include one picture in a post so I shall have to post this and start another post.



Post# 202476 , Reply# 11   10/1/2012 at 10:15 (2,744 days old) by catgate ()        

The motor unit draws the "dry" air up around the fluted central plastic molding which itself forms the outside wall of the "water safety" mechanism. This mechanism, which is about as useful as the instruction manual, is simply another plastic molding shaped like an inverted top hat, the crown of which can be seen through the rectangular opening at the base of the central plastic molding. This inverted top hat rises like Noah's ark on the rising tide of water as or when it builds up in the central part of the separator unit.(But this seems to be just theoretical.)

Post# 202477 , Reply# 12   10/1/2012 at 10:33 (2,744 days old) by catgate ()        

The "bucket" is a very straight forward plastic tub with an inverted swan neck tube directing the dirty air and its contents down into the space below the separator. A chunk of the base of the separator is cut away (along with the seal to allow this to occur.


I think this ends what has turned into a trilogy and I hope it may explain how this Hydra thing functions (or not). It is far from rocket science and brain surgery, and to me it seems to be a system destined to fail, but surely no one would market such a disaster.

Or have I missed something of importance???

"The Hydra was an ancient nameless serpent-like water beast, with reptilian traits, (as its name evinces) that possessed many heads.... "


Post# 202480 , Reply# 13   10/1/2012 at 11:32 (2,744 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

It would seem to me that the "top hat" as you call it, is a float that shuts off the airflow to the fan if water gets too high up in the main central chamber or if the tank is overfilled. This is a similar design to my Vax carpet shampooer, when the dirty water tank gets too full, a float rises up and blocks off the air suction, but this usually doesnt stop all the water and it ends up being spewed out of the motor exhaust as well. However my carpet shampooer is designed to wet the carpet, so overflow from the motor fan doesnt cause much bother, as the carpets are wet anyway.

Looking at the entry where the swan neck comes into the bucket, is there a split or leak there that has been repaired with white mastic? if air leaks in here could this upset the balance of pressure above and below that rubber seal?
Also, is the top hat able to move freely up and down in its housing, ie is the housing clean inside to allow proper up and down motion of the float?
Does the top hat have a rubber seal that pushes against the air inlet - is that clean and intact?

Have you tried using it with less water than before in it?

Does the overflow happen when you are tugging the unit around the room, causing the water inside to slop around?

It certainly is a very strange machine, but I'd start with giving the whole assembly a good clean, and check that joint around the dirt pipe inlet. Maybe use less water in it, and be very gentle when moving it about the room when vacuuming.

Maybe another member might be able to shed some light on this design, as I'm still a bit foxed as to how the baffles work and to what purpose the outer section of the clear insert serves in picture 1.
In picture 1, in the central section, directly above where the swan neck ends, and the air bubbles exit it, is there a large hole there or a covered section with small holes in it, its not clear from the pictures what is there to break up the force of the turbulance created at this point. - Perhaps a picture of the central clear insert viewed from the top?
Its always nice to see an unusual machine crop up, and we dont see many of these Gisowatts here


Post# 202488 , Reply# 14   10/1/2012 at 15:09 (2,744 days old) by catgate ()        

Well, kind sir.
"It would seem to me that the "top hat" as you call it, is a float that shuts off the airflow to the fan if water gets too high up in the main central chamber or if the tank is overfilled."
You are correct there. I do not know if this item, which I refer to as a " "water safety" mechanism, has a rubber seal, since it looks as thoughquite a bite of dismantling might be needed to verify this. It does not sound as though there is any rubber there when I push the top hat briskly upwards. Just a plastic hitting plastic sound.

" is there a split or leak there that has been repaired with white mastic? "
That white mastic is in fact silicone, left in place after I thought, erroniously as it happened, that the wet spots on the floor were coming from there. That was done about four years ago before it developed serious incontinence.

"Have you tried using it with less water than before in it? "
Yes it is supposed to run with 2.5 ltr. and I have tried it with 2.0 ltr. with not one iota of difference.

"Does the overflow happen when you are tugging the unit around the room, causing the water inside to slop around?"
I used it this afternoon with 2.0 ltr. of water and on start up, without moving it at all. It started spitting water out from a point above the rubber seal and below the green plastic cover between the filters (and from the filters too).

"In picture 1, in the central section, directly above where the swan neck ends, and the air bubbles exit it, is there a large hole there or a covered section with small holes in it, its not clear from the pictures what is there to break up the force of the turbulance created at this point."
The bottom of the item in the first picture is a circular molding with small circular features which are where the item sits, on top of the protrusions in the base of the green main housing base and which fornm the location and support points for the castors. Also cast into it are lots of square holes which I assume are there to help in releasing the air and reducing turbulence. There are also two or three spacers lifting the main "bucket" section slightly, to leave a very small gap all round.

Another question (not related to vacuum cleaners) is:- Why is it that the small control panel, above the writing/editing panel upon which I am writing all this,is all dead and "greyed out"?


Post# 202490 , Reply# 15   10/1/2012 at 15:47 (2,744 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

I see, so when the cleaner is turned on, the air comes through the pipe, then out of the swan neck under the water and is dispersed by the base of the clear plastic insert. But for some reason the spray and froth I would imagine is reaching the very top centre of the housing above the "top hat" and being drawn into the motor fan, which is then forced out through the exhaust port and filter. The question is why is this happening now, and not when the cleaner was new ( I assume it didnt do it then as you would have had it seen to under warranty). If there is no parts that are broken inside, and there is no drain hole from the fan housing back into the bucket, then obviously the machine is not designed to draw water into the suction fan. When I was saying about a rubber seal on the top hat, I meant that I would have thought the seal would be a round disc of rubber that was fixed to the top of the top hat float, which, when the float rises up inside its housing seals off the suction port to stop water entering - but the problem then would be that the motor would constantly suck the valve closed once it had blocked off the airflow, and the cleaner would have to be switched off to let it fall back down.

Have you turned on the cleaner, and looked inside it when it is spitting water out, so see how the water is entering the motor fan suction port, and whether the top hat is moving up and down freely? I think this has got to have something to do with the top hat, whether it is just sticking due to dirt buildup, or maybe it has got a hole in it, allowing water inside it.
As I say, turn on the cleaner and observe the action of the top hat, and what it does when water is coming out of the exhaust port. It could be that it is just gummed up inside its guide chamber with hair/fluff and dirt, and that the underside of the motor housing needs a good clean to remove the buildup of dirt.



Post# 202492 , Reply# 16   10/1/2012 at 15:56 (2,744 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

BTW, the editing part above the reply box, that is greyed off and the ability to edit and remove posts is only available to subscribing elite members (who have green stars in circles by their names) who pay an annual fee to help support the club - usually these members are Americans who own a lot of vacuum cleaners and attend meets and conventions over in the States.

Post# 202493 , Reply# 17   10/1/2012 at 16:10 (2,744 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Really could do with more pics of the item in picture 1, I need to know more about the base in the centre, and how the water flows around inside it. I can see the small holes in the outer section of the base which I presume would allow bubbles to rise up outside the central section, but how then does the air get into the central section. I cant decide how it works without more info in the form of pics - its really puzzling me how this thing works now, I've never seen anything else like it.

Post# 202534 , Reply# 18   10/2/2012 at 06:17 (2,744 days old) by catgate ()        

Water does not flow around in the centre of the item shown in picture 1, or at least it should not do. It seems to me that the entire purpose of the central part of this item it to prevent water getting into the item shown in picture 2.
Perhaps the picture does not show clearly enough that the item shown in picture 1 is in two parts. The lower of these parts is the item with the small square holes in it and the black rubber "seal"around the edge.This component is shaped like a washer...it is circular but has a great big hole in the middle.
The base of the upper part is attached to this "washer" by means of some small screws and nuts, and waterproof spacers which leave a small gap 3 - 4 mm between the two parts presumably to augment the squre holes in letting water through.


Post# 202535 , Reply# 19   10/2/2012 at 07:10 (2,744 days old) by baglessball ()        
I HAVE THE SAME MACHINE!

And I have the same problem!

It's definitely not the best water/filter design out there. It needs regular water changes to avoid this. I'm not talking half hourly changes. More like five minutely ones. As the more debris that are in the water, the higher the bubbles go, following more water passing through the fan.

There must also be ridges in the motor housing as it holds water. It may appear that it has stopped it's incontinent behaviour but if you are to lift off the motor housing and tip it you end up with a wet floor.

I hope this makes some sense. I'm on my phone. In meeting..


Post# 202540 , Reply# 20   10/2/2012 at 09:34 (2,743 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Looks like Bagless Ball has the solution then - its a bad design, and the dirt in the water causes more froth and dirt to be created which rises up the central section and gets sucked in by the motor. Maybe that explains why these cleaners arent that popular here - I dont know, but I cant find anywhere in the UK that sells them on the net. Perhaps the best solution is to store it away for collectible purposes and just use your dry filter cleaner for everyday use, as from what Bagless Ball says thes Hydra is more hassle than its worth if you have to keep changimng the water every 5 minutes to prevent overflow.
It was a nice thing to see though, I was racking my brain for ages trying to work out a solution to the problem - but sadly you cant alter a bad design, and even vacs made to bad designs that didnt work well can become collectible due to their rarity - I imagine Hoover's "the one" will be collectible in years to come as they were a total disaster and most will have been scrapped by now.


Post# 202541 , Reply# 21   10/2/2012 at 09:42 (2,743 days old) by catgate ()        

Thanks for you encouragement, bagless. I am pleased to know that I am not alone, but sad to know that others are suffering too.
You observations on debris in the water are borne out by my own experience.
We moved house over a year ago and are coming to the end of the "obligatory" rejigging and upgrading and have been using "the water spreader" for gathering up plaster dust during sanding down "lumpy" walls.
What surprises me is that this "heavier than water" dust should, in my opinion, stay at the bottom of the machine quite readily, and should cause less trouble than ordinary household fluff and dust. But this apparently is not the case and it spews out water with gay abandon and without provocation.
I was intrigued by your comment about bubbles. I have not seen bubbles (probably because I have not specifically looked for them) but assuming that bubbles are involved suggests that some sort of silicon based antifoaming agent might be a help. Have you tried this?


Post# 202733 , Reply# 22   10/4/2012 at 15:53 (2,741 days old) by catgate ()        

Yes...Well that is what I thought.

Post# 202786 , Reply# 23   10/5/2012 at 04:03 (2,741 days old) by catgate ()        

No. The side nearest the camera has a slight amount of lean inwards, but this has never affected the speed downhill.
The gravy stains are totally false.
My grandmother, who would be 145 years old had she still been alive, always used a small orange (or sometimes a lemon) when she had difficulty with her oven door.


Post# 202902 , Reply# 24   10/6/2012 at 17:01 (2,739 days old) by catgate ()        

Thank you Roger. It was nice that you were able to manage to find some.
I remember Johnathan Peegroft searching several months without success...but then he was looking for something totally different.
We all tried to get him to try his hand with fresh trolly grease but he would only argue that fresh spedders were the only substitute for the real thing.


Post# 202967 , Reply# 25   10/7/2012 at 16:12 (2,738 days old) by catgate ()        

I was once talking to Jaypee, as we used to call him, when he suddenly mentioned his wooden leg. I had not noticed it was not a real leg, I just thought he was rather smaller at that side.
He said that his mother had found the leg at the road side and rather than waste it she had it fitted to him. I thought that was rather a nice, careing, motherly thing to do...and so environmentaly friendly.
He was eternally grateful until the day he fell into the lake. He tried to get out, but the wooden leg was much more bouyant than the rest of him, so he floated upside down and drowned.


Post# 203369 , Reply# 26   10/10/2012 at 11:02 (2,735 days old) by catgate ()        

True to form, the local chap who deals in imported elongated anthracite wheel hoop trunnions has run out of stock, and is not expecting to get any more into his stock until some time after the end of November.
This leaves me with a bit of a problem because I have never fitted anything else, and know nothing about the lifespan of any other type.
In his TV programme, Connor Farthingford, recommended the "Ousel Marmot" brand, but they are an import and I am always a bit wary about using anything made there.
Has anyone any suggestions, please?


Post# 203608 , Reply# 27   10/13/2012 at 03:11 (2,733 days old) by catgate ()        

Due to the lack of response from this site I was obliged to contact Connor Farthingford to seek his advice.
It transpired that Connor Farthingford, as a child, had a desire to become a demarcation line when he grew up, but sadly had to settle for becoming a farriers tea pot instead.....and a jolly good one as we all now know.





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