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Post# 191199   7/24/2012 at 12:24 (2,810 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

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My family will be moving into a new home soon and I seriously need to clean the carpet. The home is a foreclosure and has been unoccupied for four years. The carpet is a high end, medium pile frieze type that is not glued down. It is very solied.

We are going to send in a good carpet cleaner to steam clean, but I don't trust any carpet cleaner pre-vacuuming. Whenever we hired carpet cleaners to clean our current house, they all used dirty Sanitaires with worn belts. It seems like more and more people and switching to Windsors now, and a bypass cleaner is not going to get this carpet clean. So I have to get the vacuuming done myself. So I'd like some suggestions on to what vacuum I should use.

I was thinking I should bring both my Eureka 1934a and Eureka Express with VGIII up to do the job. I have a feeling I will have to go through many bags, and Eureka bags are cheap and easy to find. I'm also considering my Hoover Concept or Hoover Legacy. What do you think?





Post# 191200 , Reply# 1   7/24/2012 at 12:35 (2,810 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        
Mistake

bagintheback's profile picture
I didn't see I misspelled soiled, sorry. I forgot to add that I also have a Kirby Tradition I could use, but I do not have the hose, which might be an issue.

Post# 191206 , Reply# 2   7/24/2012 at 12:57 (2,810 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

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Firstly I would be tempted to quickly run any aggressive vac over the surface to remove any loose litter,

Now, pull up half the carpet and roll it back over the other half and suction clean UNDER the carpet. Its amazing just how much dust and dirt gets under a carpet which turns to mud once wet and bringing it back up thru the carpet makes it look even dirtier.

Repeat other side of the room and lay the carpet back.

Taking something like your Kirby or even a Hoover Windtunnel/Innovation thouroughly vacuum the carpet until your quite sure its clean.

Add a new clean bag tothe cleaner and goover it once again just to make sure. Its amazing what a new bag can show up. Id even try using 2 vacuums with different style brushrolls, what one misses the other will get and you should be good to go.


Post# 191207 , Reply# 3   7/24/2012 at 13:07 (2,810 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        
turbomaster1984

bagintheback's profile picture
That is exactly what I'm afraid of; dirt under the carpet. I don't think I'm going to be able roll back any of the carpet, and some parts of the house, such as the hallways, would be almost impossible to roll back without cutting. So I need to something with enough airflow to clean everything, and I don't mind spending time on this.

Post# 191219 , Reply# 4   7/24/2012 at 15:09 (2,810 days old) by vacu-finder ()        

Well firstly bagintheback a good 7AMP upright vac will clean just as well as any 12 amp Kenmore, LUx or what have you, It's just that with a small unit you have to make a few passes. I know I have been using a Panasonic Uprite 7Amp for the last 12 years and it's done a fabulous job.
Other thing I would never have a commercial company clean my rugs, to aggresive, it can curl the carpet and Shoot the Filth rite through the underlay into the sub-floor. I have seen many ruined carpets cleaned by those steam type cleaners.

Go to a Vacuum shop or Super-market and rent a unit from them. All they do is dump the water cleaning solution on the carpet and suck it up.


Post# 191258 , Reply# 5   7/24/2012 at 18:02 (2,810 days old) by thomas_squared ()        

I would be sure to vacuum in 4 directions wherever possible. I would be sure to use a HEPA type bag so that you avoid breathing the contaminates. As others have said try the different vacuums, can't complain about "having" to compare. You can always check in the bag to be sure you have got as much as you feel comfortable with.

As far as carpet cleaning goes, a good carpet cleaner should be aware of the importance of prevacuuming and bring good quality, well maintained equipment.I would definitely go with someone who uses Hot Water Extraction. They should be using a teflon glide on their wand, in this day and age, and the jets should be aimed at the back of the glide. This ensures that the carpet is thouroughly flushed but will not become soaked through. Also, I would avoid anyone who wants to use a VLM method such as the HOST system or encapsulate cleaning. These methods have their place but it is not good for heavily soiled carpets especially residential.


Post# 191263 , Reply# 6   7/24/2012 at 19:09 (2,810 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada)        

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I have always heard that Kirbys are built like tanks. Since you don't need the hose to deep clean the carpets, I vote for Kirbying all carpets in the house - starting with an empty bag. It could probably withstand all the dirt you throw at it better than some of those great high performing Eurekas, which are unfortunately made of plastic.

Post# 191269 , Reply# 7   7/24/2012 at 20:42 (2,810 days old) by kirbyloverdan (Egg Harbor Twp . NJ aka HOOVERLOVERDAN ❤️)        
Replace

kirbyloverdan's profile picture
the carpet . I don`t care how many times I would vacuum and clean used other peoples carpet. I could never feel comfortable with carpet that other people
did God knows what to . Every home I ever purchased the first thing that goes is
the carpet .Plus I never would use my Vacuums on someones nasty carpet I never
loan any of my Vacuums out either .


Post# 191279 , Reply# 8   7/24/2012 at 22:11 (2,809 days old) by Vacuumfreeeke ()        

I would say to use a Kirby and a Sanitaire style machine... If your 1934A has a Vibragroomer, that would be ideal.... I "upgraded" mine when the cheap brushroll it came with melted its own end caps... When I go to clean someones carpet and it's really dirty only a Kirby G Series or Eureka F and G style/Sanitaire machine will do... especially if there is a lot of sand. I know that on my shag rug, I can only use one of those machines.... by pass systems not only don't clean, but also don't groom and are impossible to push on thick carpet!

Post# 191291 , Reply# 9   7/24/2012 at 23:14 (2,809 days old) by dustin (Jackson, MI)        

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My suggestion would be to take 2 vacuums, which ever one you feel has the most aggressive brushroll, and the one with the most powerful suction/ most airflow. Use the one with the aggressive brush to loosen all the dirt and bring it to the surface (and of course pick up mostof it) and then use the one with high airflow/ suction to remove whatever is left. We have the same type of carpet in our living room and I have found my Kirbys do ok if you go really slow. I think the Eureka express with VG2 would do well if it has good suction and a new bag.

Post# 191301 , Reply# 10   7/25/2012 at 01:52 (2,809 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        

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My local vacuum shop told me that the new Oreck Magnesium lightweight upright is one of the best vacuums around to be able to clean the newer style frieze carpets. I'm not familiar with this kind of carpet, but in my vac shop one day, got into talking to them about the new Oreck Magnesium that they had on display, and that's what they told me. They said a lot of other just can't handle that style.

I've used Stanley Steemer in the past was very impressed. The only thing I didn't like was they didn't vacuum at all. It was an apartment with thin carpet and they said their truckmount machines can handle everything on those kind of carpets. However while they shampooed one room, I started vacuuming some of the others before they shampooed them. Otherwise I was impressed. Very careful, moved all furniture, used furniture protectors, incredible suction, hot solution and high pressure sprayer on those machines.

One time I rented a Rug Doctor Widepath shampooer from Lowe's. Absolutely TERRIBLE machine. Extremely unimpressive results. I returned it to Lowe's told them my complaint, they did nothing but I went to my local vacuum shop and rented a RinsenVac. Terrific results with the RinseNVac.


Post# 191306 , Reply# 11   7/25/2012 at 04:30 (2,809 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

A thought-see if any rental stores or janitorial stores in your area have Certified Pile Lifter vacuums-These are designed to deep clean and relift and fluff the carpet-You use it before the carpet is cleaned then again after.A carpet cleaning service may have one that they use on their job.Or see if you can rent such a machine.Pile lifters have unusually large drum shaped brush rolls-to reach all the way down into the carpet even to the backing-yes,even further than a Kirby.The pile lifters have two motors-one for the rollerbrush,the other for suction.The home you have sounds like it really needs professional attention-a pro usually has pile lifters and the truck mount extractors.

Post# 191321 , Reply# 12   7/25/2012 at 07:55 (2,809 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Deep cleaning

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A pile lifter would be great if you can get your hands on one, if not i would go for that Eureka 1394a unless your tradition is set up with the larger fill tube and poly bags in which case i would go for the Kirby Keep some extra bags on hand as you may need them

Post# 191337 , Reply# 13   7/25/2012 at 10:40 (2,809 days old) by Trebor ()        
Use a low moisture system...

I keep the two Host rentals busy all the time now.

You have to take your time and do it right, but I have had people tell me they removed coffee stains from light colored carpet, and restored carpet they thought was trashed. You can also hire a professional cleaner who uses the Host system. Whole school and health care groups have switched to the Host system. If you do it yourself, the key is doing it properly, especially the very first time if you have very dirty stained carpet.

 


Post# 191369 , Reply# 14   7/25/2012 at 12:28 (2,809 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
Thank you for all your suggestions. In response to what type of carpeting cleaning system we will be using, there is no doubt we will be using hot water exaction. I'm very well read on this type of cleaning, and if it's done right you can't beat it. Plus I also found pet urine stains in some rooms, quite small but they are there, and Host can't clean that.

I will not be hiring Stanley Steamer, ever. I've read how they do things and watched their training video and they are mediocre. Unfortunately, the only carpet cleaner that I can conform pre-vacuums uses DYSONS! That is the last vacuum I would want to clean this carpet, and I own one myself. I can't find anyone that rents Pile Lifters in the aera.

I will keep you guys updated.


Post# 191393 , Reply# 15   7/25/2012 at 15:26 (2,809 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

kirbysthebest's profile picture
Some of this thread I understand and some I do not.

Understand:
You want the carpet cleaned, and want it vacuumed first.
--You decided to have it professionally cleaned (good choice)
--You decided to make sure it was vacuumed by doing it yourself. (another good choice)

Don't understand:
If you have already decided the above, why worry what pre-vacuum the cleaning service uses. You will have already vacuumed yourself?


Sorry I'm as OCD as the next guy, but you can only do so much.
The best advise came from KirbyloverDan--Replace the carpet (Problem solved).


Post# 191394 , Reply# 16   7/25/2012 at 15:54 (2,809 days old) by Trebor ()        
Actually...

Host CAN clean urine stains, if directions are followed.  I have people all the time tell me how amazed they are at what it removes.

 

It is impossible to wet clean without getting the entire fiber wet. Every time a carpet is wet cleaned the water soluble glue that binds the primary and secondary backings is compromised.  Whole entire health-care conglomerates have switched to Host because it is natural, biodegradable, removes allergens, leaves no wet carpet, is safe to use because next to hard surfaces. I recently cleaned 1500 sq feet of actual carpet, not just the sq footage of the home and removed stains from varnish from furniture. It involved 'pancaking' the Host and working it in to the pile and leaving it over night, but it came up. I was astonished. Of course it had to be water soluble varnish.


Post# 191395 , Reply# 17   7/25/2012 at 16:07 (2,809 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

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Sorry Kirbysthebest, I guess I did go a little off topic. What I really want to know is what vacuum would deep clean frieze carpets best. It seems most people agree my 5amp Eureka 1934a would do the job best.


Trebor: I don't doubt Host can clean pet stains, but I don't think something with such little moisture can remove the urine salts. All the major carpet manufactures recommend hot water exaction, and this carpet is seriously filthy in some areas. I'll keep Host in mind for yearly maintenance.


I will take some before and after pictures for everyone to see when I start to work on this early next week.


Post# 191399 , Reply# 18   7/25/2012 at 16:25 (2,809 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I read this thread and found myself scratching all over as I did so.

Post# 191419 , Reply# 19   7/25/2012 at 18:48 (2,809 days old) by Trebor ()        
Nathaniel,

The Host pre-clean followed by the 'pancake' technique can indeed remove urine salts. Using more moisture than was originally in the stain only dilutes it. It might take a repeat application or two, but the principle of absorption is immutable. The sponges will draw the pre-cleaner and the stains and as the moisture evaporates into the air trap it to be removed by vacuuming. Low volume extraction systems still use .8 gal per minute. 85% moisture removal is considered extremely high, and that leaves .32 gal in the carpet for every minute the solution is applied. It's a LOT of moisture anyway you look at it.


Post# 191425 , Reply# 20   7/25/2012 at 19:37 (2,809 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
Thank you for explaining that Robert, that makes Host look like a much better system. I'll call them in the morning and see if they have a cleaner that can reach our house. I'd much rather have someone thats knows what they are doing clean the carpet. Is Host any more expensive than other carpet cleaning services? We are already expecting the hot water exaction company to charge around $700 for the whole house.

Post# 191428 , Reply# 21   7/25/2012 at 20:08 (2,809 days old) by kirbyloverdan (Egg Harbor Twp . NJ aka HOOVERLOVERDAN ❤️)        
$700.00 for carpet cleaning ??????????????????

kirbyloverdan's profile picture
Replace it how can you use someones nasty pet stained carpets ? I would rather rip out the carpet and live with sub floor than try to clean someones nasty disease laden carpet . Save the $700.00 plus some more and then buy new carpet and start anew in your new house ! I would never ever be able to walk bare feet on that carpet nor lay on it .

Post# 191432 , Reply# 22   7/25/2012 at 21:15 (2,809 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
Daniel, do you know how many times my mom has said that about our current carpet! We like the carpet already in the house and cleaning it will be much cheaper than replacing almost 2,000 square feet of carpet. Hopefully I can get a good carpet cleaning guy in there soon. Thank you for your concern though.

Post# 191438 , Reply# 23   7/25/2012 at 21:49 (2,808 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)        
Well, you asked, lolol

gottahaveahoove's profile picture
I tend to agree with Dan. I've NEVER moved, so, I never had to deal with that. I think I'd have a hard time with other people's carpeting. I'd always wonder how clean it was, how wet it got, what's still really 'under there', etc. $700.00 seems high for cleaning. I might take the $700.00 and add to it. Do you really like this carpeting THAT much? Even dirty? Keep us abreast of what you do. As far as strong vacuuming, a HOOVER Concept is a strong cleaner. Best of luck,
John.


Post# 191472 , Reply# 24   7/26/2012 at 01:09 (2,808 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        

durango159's profile picture
Reading all of the posts since my previous I've changed my mind:

1) You stated your mother thinks the carpets should be ripped out, due to heavy staining and the thought of someone else's dirt that may not completely be removed. This is probably the top reason. If your mother is happy, EVERYONE ELSE IS HAPPY!! If mom's not happy with results of cleaning and she's short $700, no one else will be happy either.

2) 2000 sq. Ft is a lot but not too bad. I am a Realtor. Most consumers moving to another house usually end of putting about 2k into a house in-order to bring paint and floor surfaces up to their standards whether its for color matching, worn condition, cleaner feel or all of the above.

3) This carpet is revolting and is probably older than you think. Pet urine, random stains, accumulated dirt. Carpet cleaning does some stain and appearance improvement but carpets don't disinfect well.

4) You stated the carpet is NOT glued down. Labor is one of the major factors for carpet removal when it comes to people minds. They don't want to move the furniture and older carpet removal etc. adds heavily to labor so higher installation fee.

5) Your moving in, the house is most likely unfurnished. This is the absolute BEST time to get new carpet, put it in now instead of in 2 yrs or directly after having it cleaned when you realize that cleaning it didn't bring it back to what it should be.

6) $700, is that tax included? In addition to aggravation of who's doing it, their job performancte, drying time, and questionable end result.

7) You like the carpet that's in the house!! This makes shopping for new carpet easy. Cut off a section of the carpet that may still be clean. Bring it to the carpet store and tell them-- "We want this" Now you're taking the same $700+ from the carpet cleaning but investing it into a smarter media. Clean, fresh carpet and now thanks to this forum, you know the best vacuum cleaner for maintaining it properly in addition to the best upkeep for 6 month or annual carpet shampooing.

Just my advice from working with buyers & sellers of real estate, my own personal life experiences, my work experience in house cleaning and my passion and knowledge of vacuum cleaners and a clean house. My dad is a doctor, my uncle is a doctor and my deceased grandfather was a doctor. Financially, health reasons, smart investing, cleanliness and convenience of move in, my family would recommend replacing the carpet now.

Best of luck and congratulations to the decision makers of the household and new homeowners in which ever direction they decide to go with on this subject. Good luck with the move. I truly believe you will enjoy the new house better with fresh allergen, and germ free carpet.

Blessings to all and happy vacuuming from Central Pennsylvania,
Rob


Post# 191473 , Reply# 25   7/26/2012 at 01:19 (2,808 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)        
Rob!!

gottahaveahoove's profile picture
That was, in a nutshell, BRILLIANT! Wouldn't it be awful to "clean", and then 'smell' strange things?
John


Post# 191535 , Reply# 26   7/26/2012 at 14:22 (2,808 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
I just got off the phone from a Host carpet cleaner. The woman on the phone was the nicest service person I've ever spoken to. Sadly, her location was too far for her to drive to get to our house. Very upsetting. New carpeting has been deemed too expensive, so I guess we at back at hot water exaction.

Post# 191539 , Reply# 27   7/26/2012 at 14:34 (2,808 days old) by director12 ()        

Maybe that Rubbermaid or maroon Steamvac you own can help with the extraction.

Post# 191573 , Reply# 28   7/26/2012 at 16:22 (2,808 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        

Or U can rent or buy a Bissell Big Green (Rug Doctor competitor)

The Bissell Big Green has a HUGE brush roll that RUNS CONTINUOUSLY WHEN ON FLOOR CLEANING MODE; unlike the Rug Doctor Mighty Pro's vibrating brush that runs ONLY WHEN THE SPRAY IS ACTIVATED.

@Durango159

When U said that U rented the Rinse N' Vac, did U also get the power brush? Or did U just use the regular nozzle? Was the Rug Doctor NOT working correctly?

I know how this feels, since I've moved COUNTLESS times; most of the time I've had good luck because the carpets have been cleaned or replaced; but one place had VERY dirty SHAG CARPETS & the Hoover Steam Vac SpinScrub cleaned it all like magic.

Since I haven't used a Rinse N' Vac or Thermax in a VERY long time, I've been using rotary foam shampooing machines like Electrolux or Hoover.

Here's the link to the Bissell Big Green.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO floor-a-matic's LINK


Post# 191578 , Reply# 29   7/26/2012 at 16:46 (2,808 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        
Bissell Big Green

I also forgot to add that some HEB stores have switched from Rug Doctor to the new Bissell Big Green; thank God for the change. :) I just wish that HEB didn't do away with vacuum bags, belts & filters!

RE: Used carpets

I used to walk barefoot UNTIL the day my mother got pricked by a sewing needle; fortunately it was OUR sewing needle & not someone else's that fell on the carpet. That's another thing to be careful with when dealing with used carpets.

Now I have tile (at least for now) but I'll be checking the next house (if it is carpeted) once I move.

If U use a Rainbow, you'll be pulling out TONS of dirt that other bagged/bagless vacs leave behind. Just don't forget to CHANGE THE WATER after vacing 1/2 of each room if you're going to use a Rainbow for vacing. Also, the rectangular Power Nozzles (models R-1024 [Eureka-built], R-1650, R-2800, & R-4375) with brush & beater bars can get the deepest dirt (even past the backing) WITHOUT having to tear up the carpet.

I ALWAYS use a Rainbow & even just vacing revived the shag carpets in OH. :D


Post# 191617 , Reply# 30   7/27/2012 at 00:38 (2,807 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        

durango159's profile picture
Hi Floor-a-matic.
I had planned on shampooing a 3 floor town house with the RugDoctor that I had just rented. However I was so UNIMPRESSED with how the machine operated I only did my bedroom. The next day when I rented the RinseNVac I recleaned my bedroom and was DRAMATICALLY impressed with the results. Stains were gone, carpet was not nearly as wet. I shampooed all 3 floors of the townhouse, which the rugs were highly stained. At some points I took out a hand scrub brush on a couple of spots but for the most part the RinseNVac conquered the rest and the place looked terrific afterwards. Since this day I have never once re-considered a RugDoctor for anything and would never buy one from a store. I think that the TV infomercial for the RugDoctor is SEVERELY edited and fake.

The vac shop that I rented the RinseNVac from said that the power brush isn't very powerful on those and said I should try the regular extraction wand they thought results would be just as good. They said the power head on it didn't provide very good agitation in their opinion and I think the sprayer wasn't as powerful.

The Rug Doctor I used, I think worked but I told Lowes they should have the unit checked just in case. I thought it was actually putting down too much water. The Rug Doctor put down lots of water, and the brush did move, and suction was working. However the carpet seemed extremely wet too me, yet didn't appear very clean.

Since this experience my carpet shampooing preferences are as follows, moving to the next step if the first doesn't work
Trial 1: Hoover Steamvac- with Spin Scrub. I've been impressed with these. Not sure how well they deep clean to bottom of pile but overall carpets look and feels clean afterwards.

Trial 2: RinseNVac- they're hard to find though

Final step if above else doesn't work: Stanley Steemer. Used them only once but was HIGHLY HIGHLY impressed with results, and customer service. Extremely powerful machines did a terrific job.

One apartment I moved into the previous tenants hired a "ChemDry" style carpet dry cleaning company to shampoo the rugs. I was very unimpressed with the results and procedure the Dry Clean company used. Carpets were quite wet for 24 hours and I didn't feel they accomplished anything. So when I had to choose a carpet cleaner at move out, I chose Stanley Steemer and glad I did. The place was spotless, looked really nice. It is very possible that different locations of Stanley Steemer may have a better operation? Very happy with the location I used and I've recommended them since to many people, they've been happy as well!


Post# 191625 , Reply# 31   7/27/2012 at 02:01 (2,807 days old) by Vacuumfreeeke ()        

Btw, I've never known a carpet cleaner to pre-vacuum! I used to work in restaurants and when I sold vacuums at Sears, the lady I worked with had a husband who owned a carpet cleaning business so whenever I got around a carpet cleaner, I would ask what they use to pre-vacuum.... they said that their equipment is so powerful that pre-vacuuming is not necessary. The were almost snobbish/arrogant about it! Some of them also said that they don't even instruct the customer to vacuum first because most people have such awful vacuums or the vacuums are in such a state of disrepair that it wouldn't do any good.

I remember how shocked I was when I saw the Fantom infomercials and they had a carpet cleaning company on that that said they pre-vacuumed with Fantoms. Not because I didn't like Fantoms (I was infatuated with them when they first came out actually), but because I'd never heard of the concept of pre-vacuuming. I think you should pre and post vacuum when deep cleaning a carpet....

I've seen videos of carpet cleaners who use a turbo cat nozzle on the end of the truck mount hose to pre-vacuum...


Post# 191691 , Reply# 32   7/27/2012 at 12:05 (2,807 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
Bobby, take a look at this video. It clearly shows that even a truck mount can not remove all dry soils from the carpet.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO bagintheback's LINK


Post# 192163 , Reply# 33   7/29/2012 at 19:04 (2,805 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

bagintheback's profile picture
We have decided to rent a Host machine to do the work. I got a qoute from a good carpet cleaner today and it was way too expensive. Even renting a Host machine for a week and buying mutipule tubs of Host will be many hundreds of dollars cheaper. I think four 12lb buckets should be good for both the new and old house. We're saving so much money on this anymore will be deal, so please tell me if you don't think that is sufficient for two double story houses. Of course I will be posting pictures of the process when it starts next weekend.

Post# 192165 , Reply# 34   7/29/2012 at 19:45 (2,805 days old) by director12 ()        

I would never use a carpet cleaning company-too expensive and have marketing scams. I would use my 5/6-year old Steamvac to do the job. It's less expensive, plus Hoover Steamvacs rock.

Post# 192401 , Reply# 35   7/30/2012 at 21:38 (2,803 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        

I thought U were going to try out a Bissell Big Green!?

How well will a Big Green clean the dirtiest carpets IN A REAL ENVIRONMENT & NOT IN A LAB?


Post# 259066 , Reply# 36   12/9/2013 at 11:29 (2,307 days old) by director12 ()        

I don't really know.




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