Thread Number: 16272
What brand of vac, is a true hepa filter.
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Post# 173595   3/17/2012 at 02:02 (2,937 days old) by hooverman101 ()        

Here is what I am looking at. My mom purchased the Hoover Windtunnel Canister vac. I figured it would do a good job. In alot of ways, it does. But, right now, with a cat and dog, well, I about feel this way. When I can still pick up dirt, pet hair, just to name a few things, it seems to me that the Hoover Windtunnel isn't really the best. What I wonder is this. My mom, she deals with copd on a daily basis. Now, the second that I turn on the Hoover, my eyes, start to water, and there are times I do sneeze as well. In my mom's house, a canister with a powerhead is really needed. Bags as well are needed for her safety, and comfort from what a lung specalist told me. Anyone, do you have any ideas? I am thinking about getting a new one from Sears. Not sure as of yet. She paid close to $400.00 for this vac. Just really thinking a few things over.




Post# 173652 , Reply# 1   3/17/2012 at 08:39 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Well, IMHO you'll never escape dust from a bagless, cyclonic vacuum - I think we've been down this road before - captured dust is better captured in a bag and stays there.

Post# 173655 , Reply# 2   3/17/2012 at 08:46 (2,936 days old) by trebor ()        
What a vac cannot pick up...

it cannot filter. Sometimes a corrective deep vacuuming is required using a different machine than will be used for regular maintenance. If you are dealing with wall-to-wall carpet installed over padding with tack strip, use a Sanitaire, even if you have to borrow it, ot rent it. It will deep clean the carpet. Use the high-filtration bags, and change the belt every four hours of actual use. You want to maximize dirt removal while minimizing effort.

Post# 173658 , Reply# 3   3/17/2012 at 08:50 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
"change the belt every four hours of actual use.."

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Ehhh, what???

I understand tension starts to go on belts, but are you suggesting that the Sanitaire uprights only last for 4 hours if a deep carpet clean is needed? OMG that'll be expensive to upkeep!


Post# 173659 , Reply# 4   3/17/2012 at 08:51 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Any upper market vac Baged or bag less with a sealed hepa filtration system will do fine. weather its baged or bag less empty or remove the bag outside Just as much dust will escape the bag as will escape a bag less vacuum when you empty it.If its got the allergy foundations seal of approval its good.

then look after it clean the bag or filters an you won't have a problem.

I am heavily allergic to dust and have used a bag less vacuum for more than 10 years now with no ill effects. when I do "play " with my bagged toys I sneeze and cough just as much when throwing the bag out as I do when I empty the bag less one. Even the bags with shut off ports leak dust at that point.


Post# 173660 , Reply# 5   3/17/2012 at 08:57 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Can you tell me, what happens if you wash the filters out? Or when a bit of clogged dust gets stuck in the cyclone shrouds? You can keep shaking the bin outside and use that as an excuse, but you'll eventually have to wash the filters by hand - and Im sorry - that's when dust becomes airborne whether you like it or not, or even when you instantly plop the filter into a sink of hot water.



Post# 173663 , Reply# 6   3/17/2012 at 09:01 (2,936 days old) by trebor ()        
What I am saying is...

in a 'corrrective' vacuuming situation, the intent is to get an arduous task over with as quickly as possible. But do the math. Average use of a vacuum is 15 min once a week, so that would be a new belt once every 16 weeks, or basically three belt changes a year. Moving all the furniture and doing a deep down purging type of vaccuming, divide the room in half, move all furniture to one side, vacuum 30 min, shift furniture, vacuum 30 min, move to another room, so about four avearge size rooms out of a belt. Remember this is not regular maintenance vacuuming, but removing a buildup of dirt, debris, sand, grit, dust, hair, lint, and allergens. Once achieved, the belt should suffice for six months. As we all know, the belt begins to stretch as soon as it is installed.

Post# 173664 , Reply# 7   3/17/2012 at 09:18 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Mmm, trouble is Trebor - I don't think there's a "corrective" vacuuming situation anymore due to ever changing lifestyle needs in a home. Let me give you an example.

My mum was born with whooping cough. Medically it has been proved that in later life, those born with whooping cough will have a persistent dry cough - and my mum certainly has that. She is also a fan of scented candles and as such a massive buyer of Yankee Candle. Now, if you have any scented candles in the home that are made with animal fats (unless they are soya based), they also attract dust (unless you have the handy more expensive Yankee Candle housewarmer jars or tumbler with lids) and oils, the scents that hang around in the air are just lovely - but if you leave the candles out, you'll soon see a line of dust hanging around. This is also evident on reed diffusers that haven't been swapped around - scented products like these attract dust.

In the rooms that we have these candles or reed diffusers, I've noticed a lot more dust build up. Same with extra bedding that attracts dust and builds up more dander. It also depends on the amount of dust particular rooms attract due to the type of room, high ceilings that circulate dust more compared to low ceiling rooms that seem to contain the dust better. Big massive windows often mean a lot more dusting compared to small and if you have appliances like a TV in the bedroom, that's another thing that contributes to dust. Big air con devices or heater fans also distribute dust (one of the things I hate is that you can never remove the grids on fans to remove the dust - yet there are hair dryers on the market that have removable fan vents for cleaning the dust out!) then there's actual curtains that can also retain dust in - unless you remove them everytime to wash - I adore bedrooms and general rooms that have washable PVC pull down blinds instead of soft furnishings.

So with some of these additional factors tied in, even if you remove the dust in one day taking into considerations all the furniture moved out of the way and the ardour tasks that present themselves to thoroughly clean the room out, it only takes another two days for dust to then "reappear".




Post# 173665 , Reply# 8   3/17/2012 at 09:18 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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@ sebo fan

when you take a bag out you squeeze it unintentionally and you blow jus as much dust out , according to some tests done by various company's even more dust. I have never in 10 years I have never had to unclog the bin and I wash the filters before they get loaded with dust. But then again I use a proper bagless vacuum and not a cheap copy cat. I wash the filters every 3 months as suggested and there has never been any viable dust on them all. I have cats and dogs and hate pet hair so we vacuum a few times a day


Post# 173667 , Reply# 9   3/17/2012 at 09:49 (2,936 days old) by venson ()        
Regarding your machine . . .

If you own the model S3865 it got quite good ratings. That said, first off I'd arm myself with a dust mask -- AND the cleaner's user guide -- and then clean ALL filters. Give that a go and see if it makes a difference when you use it. If it does it means that regular maintenance in that area is is necessary to keep it running optimally and user friendly.

Considering your Mom's COPD, I'd want to be vacuuming at least every other day. As you have pets you may need to empty the machine after each use which is not wonderful but may help decrease the problem you're experiencing.

Also be advised that there is a problem that I've noticed with every bagless, so-called cyclonic machine I've owned. IF debris is allowed to build up in the area of the collection bin where the cyclonic action happens, the dust collection rate on pre-filters increases. As long as the air spin is uninhibited less fine dust travels to pre-filters. If large litter, etc., jams up that area the cyclonic action is rendered less effective.

My second thought is if you own your home AND if it's economically feasible, in this instance I suggest thinking of installing a central vacuum system that exhausts to the outside of your home. You wouldn't be recycling indoor air as you would with a portable cleaner. Central units require less occasion for emptying due to very large dirt collection capacity but in your case you'd want to be sure to wear a proper dust mash when you dumped it.

If you do decide on a central unit, it should be placed in an easy to access but relatively out of the way place like an attached garage or laundry room.

If that is not possible -- I really do not recommend bagless machines for anyone who is challenged by dust exposure. That said, there are bagged brands that are reputed for high-filtration but I am hesitant to recommend them due to the high price of not only the machines but the consumables they use as well.


Post# 173676 , Reply# 10   3/17/2012 at 11:28 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
"when you squeeze out a bag' What rubbish!!

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@gsheen

Why would you want to squeeze a bag anyway?

At the end of the day, why do hospitals still use bagged vacuums? Because it's healthier.

If bagless, cyclonic vacuums were so safe and "sealed", why the preference to still using a bagged system? Hospitals aren't afraid of spending more on bags! Not all bagless vacs are the same as you also point out, but MOST bagged vacuums have a self pull seal on them - would you squeeze out a bag full of toxins if you knew they would be damaging to your health? No and most owners don't - they take out the bag and put it into a bin. Ironic when Dyson and other brands suggest using a secondary bag to put all the dust in IF there are allergy sufferers in the home.

You also seem to turn a blind eye to washing filters - yet, the moment they become airborne - they start to leak dust - just because you can't see it - all that pet danger, allergen substance etc gets into the air - and even if it doesn't lead an onslaught attack to your asthma or breathing difficulties, whatever you breathe in will get into your lungs.

Unless of course you wear a dust mask each time you maintain your filters, you'll be less likely to breathe in what natural gravity and air in the home circulates. But at the end of the day when clinics and health establishments who deal with a great traffic of people, some of which suffer from dust allergies need to stay in places that have to be 100% clinically clean, doesn't it say a lot for bagged vacuums against bagless?



Post# 173678 , Reply# 11   3/17/2012 at 11:44 (2,936 days old) by stricklybojack (Southern California)        
get a separate air filter

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specifically the Blueair brand, i link to an economical model (currently discounted online btw) from a respected national retailer. I have asthma & allergies & after 40 years of suffering this is one of the best discoveries i've made. COPD has its own concerns but if they are akin to asthmatic ones i suffer then i speak from decades of direct experience.
Remember furnaces, vacuums, pets, people all make & or put dust into the air. And mold/ mildew is even worse. this unit has a quiet setting that truely is nearly silent (yes i'm looking at you Honeywell...). That is absolutely key as you want to leave it on all the time for most effective results. Also these units have sizable filter media that i vacuum for longer life as it is the ultra fine particulate (nearly gaseous) that really is the big part of the problem...not the visible stuff so much, as it is down on the floor (or wherever) telling you its there not mysteriously making your eyes water by simply being almost everywhere in your house constantly.
Blueairs come in different models that differ mostly in capacity not unit size btw. the link is to the best value out there (i believe) on Blueairs right now...i now own 5 Blueair units, 3 different models, in two houses...& just unboxed the deal linked below last night & it's purring along at my feet as i write this. Really this product is in a whole other world than the Oreck/Honeywell stuff ( i mention those brands as they are common) - imo & my experience, good luck....


CLICK HERE TO GO TO stricklybojack's LINK


Post# 173679 , Reply# 12   3/17/2012 at 11:50 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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That looks like a super machine, strickly.

For many years we've made do with the simple Chinese made Air Globe. You probably have them in the U.S too. Only downside to this one is that the fan inside gets really dirty and can't be cleaned unless you try and take out the sealed parts or try and clean it with a cotton bud.

We didn't use the scented oil because the first model we bought got clogged up with the scented oil BECAUSE IT ALLOWS DUST TO STICK to the impellers. The second model lasted about 5 years and was used to filter the air - I was really shocked as to the amount of dust this basic, low energy fan system pulled in and displayed in the water. Even managed to catch little flying bugs!


Post# 173683 , Reply# 13   3/17/2012 at 12:24 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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@Sebofan
in case you missed it the first time then let me say it again, when you take out a bag you unintentionally squeeze it. you have to carry it right ? go and look at your sebo bags you have to remove them first and then fit a cap you will still realise dust into the air.

I think thee are a place for both bagged and bag less, Im not biased in any way. If you want bag less get the best dyson , If you want bagged get one that works , Kirby lindhaus, royal. If bags are so safe then why do they burst, henry's kirby's sebo's they all burst .......... if you abuse them and overfill them the same way that any bagless system will fail if you abuse it

as for hospitals, all the ones I have been to use huge central vacuum systems


Post# 173687 , Reply# 14   3/17/2012 at 12:45 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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a while ago I saw a study done by one of the big university's in the US can't for the life of me remember there name but I had a good laugh at the result.I lost my copy of it when our pc crashed 4 months ago but if you know a rainbow dealer or search the web you should be able to find it

It was commissioned by rainbow . the aim was what machine put more dirt into ther air during use and emptying. Now I am not the biggest fan of water filtration, I think its messy and a royal pain to use but the results were interesting. to be fair the university not only used a rainbow but also a thermax and a delphin. for bagged vacuums they uses a miele , kirby sebo and a hoover wind tunnel , bagless a dcyson , hoover windtunnel , eureka 3200, and a shark.

what was interesting to me is that in removing the bag from each of the baged vacuum as much dust was realised into the air as bagless vacuum been emptied into a bin. the only machines not to realise any dust during emptying were the water vacuums


Post# 173694 , Reply# 15   3/17/2012 at 12:57 (2,936 days old) by trebor ()        
The Lindhaus...

upright bags need only be slid off the intake tube, and are still supported by the bag chamber, so no squeezing, even inadvertently. Just close the tab, sealing the opening.

Post# 173698 , Reply# 16   3/17/2012 at 13:24 (2,936 days old) by trebor ()        
Re: central vac

If you are going to be in the house for the forseeable future, and if you( or friends) have any mechanical skills at all, a central vac is the way to go. How much have you spent on vacs already, and what will a new high filtration vac cost?

The key to being happy with a C/V install is
1) Not skimping:

put in plenty of inlets. A hose doc-it or a hide-a-hose are expensive. Cheaper to put in more inlets and to have a 20 ft hose for everyday vacuuming and a 35 footer for more thorough cleaning.
put in the extras:
a) vroom
b) spot
c) holster vac
d) sweep inlets
e) drawer vac (the least useful IMHO)

2) having a top notch installation. paying attention to the small details makes all the difference. Use the tubing with the cuffs molded on and the proper cutting tool.

A bagged system is better. Just as in a portable vac, the power is 100% each time a new bag is installed. I like the MD systems.


Post# 173701 , Reply# 17   3/17/2012 at 13:55 (2,936 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Trebor, I like the idea of a central vac system, but what happens if you move home? Can you take the system with you or would you require the company to remove all the tubes etc?

Post# 173703 , Reply# 18   3/17/2012 at 14:14 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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The idea is that if you sell your home the central vacuum adds value to it. then you buy a new unit for your new house.

Post# 173825 , Reply# 19   3/18/2012 at 00:34 (2,936 days old) by IL-Kirby-Fan ()        
HEPA

There are 13 levels of HEPA filtration. The Federal minimun standard for a product to me HEPA compliant is level 3. Most use level 3, a couple brands use level 5. Kirby uses HEPA level 11. I know you said that she would prefer a canister, but Kirby is going to be the best for filtration...and they're versatile machines so above floor cleaning is still easy.

Post# 173835 , Reply# 20   3/18/2012 at 01:32 (2,936 days old) by Trebor ()        
A Kirby is easy to use...

for above the floor cleaning if you are young, healthy, strong, quick, agile and nimble. I used to be a die-hard Kirby fan.

90% of the time when a hose is needed it is just a quick swipe with an open tube and two feet of hose is sufficient. A Kirby will not go flat to the floor under a bed. A Kirby weighs 24 lbs., not easy to carry up and down stairs. A Kirby is a great cleaning machine. It is easy to push, but it is not easy to use. I trade them in all the time on the Lindhaus after a 5 min demo: 14lb weight, show 2 motor, auto belt protection, full bag shut off, rice-pick up, flat-to-floor, handle on body, on board tool's, ease of bag change, low noise, high filtration (near HEPA at much lower cost) For the cost of a Kirby you can have a Lindhaus upstairs and down, and still put change in your pocket.

Yes, it is possible to take the central vac power unit and hose/tools with you if the buyer doesn't want it. You need new tubing and inlets in the new house. But you buy new fridge and stove and garage opener knowing they will stay. so why not a central vac?


Post# 173837 , Reply# 21   3/18/2012 at 02:08 (2,936 days old) by Trebor ()        
The truth about HEPA...

there are FIVE levels of HEPA filtration, numbered 10 through 14, see link below.

The difference is the size of particles and percentage captured below 0.3 microns.
ULPA (Ultra Low Penetration Arresting) is higher filtration 99.997% @.03 microns (notice shift in decimal point)

HEPA was developed as a life saving measure for nuclear scientists working in clean rooms. It originally stood for High Efficiency Particulate Arresting filter, and was corrupted by the commercial marketplace to ---Particle Air.

Pollen and mold sizes start at 2.5 microns. If you really need true hepa to survive you are living in a bubble and have no business having floor coverings, upholstery, or fabric window treatments in your environment. Hepa filters are tested at a rate of 10cfm, yes that is correct TEN CFM PER ONE SQUARE FOOT OF MATERIAL PER MINUTE. Do the math, 12x 12 = 144 sq in/ sq ft x 12 = 1728 cu in/sq ft x 10 cu ft/min = 17280 cu in/min/sq ft. divide that by 144 = 120 in per sq in per min, divide that by 60 sec per min and you get TWO CUBIC INCHES PER SECOND PER SQUARE INCH OF MATERIAL. Up the ante by a FACTOR OF 6 for a vac that moves only 60 cu ft/min, (80-90 cfm is common) up it again by a FACTOR OF 12 for a filter that is only 3" x 4" . A filter that is tested at 2 cu/in per sq in /sec by itself is used in a vacuum cleaner that is pushing air at SEVENTY TWO TIMES THE RATE OF CERTIFICATION. Now do you understand what a boondoggle HEPA filtration actually is? Not one allergist in a hundred understands this or can explain it. The only true test of Hepa vacuums is as a unit, with the filter in place, running at full speed. The Lindhaus vacuums are 96.28% effective with the standard inexpensive Filtrete filter in place and using the standard paper bag. Close enough, case closed.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Trebor's LINK


Post# 173843 , Reply# 22   3/18/2012 at 03:03 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Trebor

"The only true test of Hepa vacuums is as a unit, with the filter in place, running at full speed".

 

This is so true, many vacuums cleaners offer a hepa filter but not a sealed system. thee is no point in haveing a hepa filter when there is no seal around it or any were in the exhaust system of the machine. One of the best hepa filtration vacuums out there was the Electrolux OXY3 it has its hepa filter before the motor and another one after the motor. the only trouble with having a hepa filter in fron of the motor is that if you are not carefull and let the bag burst you will have to replace the hepa filter as its not washable 


Post# 173844 , Reply# 23   3/18/2012 at 03:15 (2,936 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Just One thing, 

 

I am allergic to grass ( I love mowing my lawn ) cats ( I have 11) dust ( i works with vacuums for a living) 

 

many years ago when my parents discovered that I was allergic to every thing ( including chocolate ) every one said oh you must get rid of your pets garden and every thing, my mom refused. What happened was that i built up a resistance to my allergy's. I was chatting to a doctor that specialised in allergy's and he said to me that thanks to modern cleaning chemicals vacuums and air cleaning air cons children aren't getting used to dirt and germs and building up resistance to them so there are more allergy's. Its kind of ironic the very same systems that we buy to help with our allergy's are causing them.


Post# 173856 , Reply# 24   3/18/2012 at 09:11 (2,935 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
re: Just One Thing

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Yes, thanks to modern cleaning chemical vacuums and air cleaning, children aren't getting to used to dirt and germs - thus, when you look at it - when bagless, cyclonic vacuums weren't around, one can certainly summize children were far healthier. Thus, bagless, cyclonic vacuums are newer and because of them, they attribute to children becoming immune to bacteria.

So what does that tell you?


Post# 173859 , Reply# 25   3/18/2012 at 09:14 (2,935 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
Re: central vacs and moving.

sebo_fan's profile picture
Trebor, in the UK, people generally move their stoves and fridge systems. Just wanted to know if there's an alternative portable system that would allow you to take the vac with you. As for garage openers, well, I don't know many who have them - in the UK we don't do electric gates unless you live in a posh mansion and electric garage doors just aren't that much of a necessity.

Post# 173861 , Reply# 26   3/18/2012 at 09:53 (2,935 days old) by szymonrules (Philadelphia, PA )        
Well...

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Just my 2 cents (pence?.) Miele and Dyson should be the best at HEPA filtration. If those are too expensive, Riccars are pretty good but still pretty dang expensive... Hope this adds to your knowledge!

Post# 173862 , Reply# 27   3/18/2012 at 09:57 (2,935 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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@ sebo fan 

 

You missed the point completely and totally. It had nothing to do with what type of vacuum system you use but the obsession with germ free & saftey. children can't do anything any more because , they might get dirty or they might get hurt.  


Post# 173905 , Reply# 28   3/18/2012 at 13:16 (2,935 days old) by IL-Kirby-Fan ()        

Kirby will always be the way to go! If someone isn't phyisically able to use one then they probably shouldn't be doing their own cleaning anyway.

Post# 173906 , Reply# 29   3/18/2012 at 13:18 (2,935 days old) by Koobam ()        
LOL sebo fan

Are you trying THAT hard to put down Dyson? You're D4 is just as much to "blame" as a Dyson for this very cause of a higher rate of allergy sufferers than not. In fact - blaming the Dyson more would be complementary as it's the best HEPA vacuums that contribute the most to this problem.


I, myself, am also a sufferer - and I've talked to my friends before about this and we all did come to that conclusion that it's because were not exposed to the dust and dirt like we used to be - our bodies see it as a threat and thus cause incessant sneezing, runny nose, puffy eyes, and headaches (suffered heavily from all a while back, a few hundred shots later and I'm doing much better).


Thus, really, the whole "ZOMG BagleSSs will KILL YOU cuyZ DirT GOes EVERYWHER ZOMG!!!111" is completely invalid and it's been proven time and again that a smart way of emptying the dust bin - and doing so outside - is way more than sanitary enough that it's not really a valid argument in my book.

I love SEBO, Miele, Dyson, Electrolux, Aerus, Emer, and Fakir - but I can't stand Dyson bashers that use that lame excuse everytime.


Post# 173910 , Reply# 30   3/18/2012 at 13:50 (2,935 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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What vacuum you choose to use is as much a personal choice as what car you drive. I only drive Mercedes as my personal everyday transport and would never buy an Audi or a Bmw does that make them bad cars, NO they are just not what I like in a car.  They don't suit my needs and I don't feel as safe in them, we also have a Range Rover sport and a hyundia, They are both good cars and both have there uses but Im the most happy behind the wheel of my merc's .  My wife loves her little hyundia , she doesn't like my merc or the rangy that much its personal.  

When It was just my wife and my self we had a absolutly brilliant Electrolux ultrasmart vac ,IE Eureka smart vac. It was bagged and did just fine, When through family sircumstances we inhereted  7 cats to add to our 4 I was trully glad to get my hands on a dyson ( not available in SA at the time).

 

I Love my cats but can't handle pet hair any were( a little ocd) so I vacuum easily 4 times a day( I work from home ) .We are agents for dyson and also vorwerk ( bagged vacuums) they are truly great vacuums but when I tried using one in my house it was impossible. I went thru 4 bags a week, same when we used a miele s7 upright. For me and many many others a dyson is the only way to go. My eldest one is 10 Its cyclone has never clogged , its never snapped a belt on its clutch ( although I have replaced the belts on the clutch every year) Its never had clogged filters. I am now fortune enough to have the option of having 5 dysons in my home one for each area. all work perfectly with no hassle , but then I follow instructions


Post# 173924 , Reply# 31   3/18/2012 at 15:38 (2,935 days old) by joshdonnell ()        
Dyson

There ok not the best if i want bagless i want a either a shark or a electrolux nimble

Post# 173931 , Reply# 32   3/18/2012 at 16:06 (2,935 days old) by Trebor ()        
To IL Kirby Fan:

So you are saying that just because someone is physically unable to use a Kirby they should not be doing their own cleaning? Does that mean that someone who cannot run the Boston Marathon should not walk? Do you realize the incongruity and absurdity of your statement? I know where of I speak. I sold many Kirby systems in my day, many of them. I won trips, Kirbys, the whole bit.

I can maneuver the Lindhaus upright just fine, use the tools, carry it up and downstairs. And you are telling me that because I am not able to use a Kirby with ease I must hire someone else to do my cleaning? Would you be paying for this directly out of your own pocket, or would you prefer an increase in your taxes to subsidize all of us who cannot use a Kirby? I should live in filth because I cannot afford a professional cleaning service?

I know what it is to be a fervent believer in the Kirby system, or the Rainbow, for that matter. About another 30 years or so down the road, you will likely feel differently about using a Kirby, if they are even still around at that point. The population is aging, and the younger generation cares less about cleaning than previous generations. Kirby is not the be all and end all cleaning solution for every situation. I trade them in for 50 bucks on the Lindhaus, after a 5 min demo. I can't high pressure anyone in 5 min. People take the machine from me.

Please, temper your opinions with a bit of common sense, if you wish to be taken seriously as an adult on this forum. Thank you,

Trebor


Post# 173944 , Reply# 33   3/18/2012 at 16:50 (2,935 days old) by djtaylor (Salt Lake City, Utah)        
To Hooverman101...

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To Hooverman101:
Since you say that a canister would be your first choice for your home I would suggest that you find a Tri Star. The older CXL or DXL models are, I feel, better made and better performers. But, the newer EXLs are still good vacuums. Use the micro filtration disposable bags and the HEPA exhaust filter. Make sure to put a new belt on the power nozzle and change the bags monthly, if not more often.
Just my two cents. Let us know what you choose to do.
Best of luck.
Justin


Post# 174131 , Reply# 34   3/19/2012 at 22:46 (2,934 days old) by IL-Kirby-Fan ()        
Trebor...

My email address is listed in my profile...feel free to direct additional comments there.

Post# 174138 , Reply# 35   3/20/2012 at 00:30 (2,934 days old) by bimmer740 (Long Island, New York)        

bimmer740's profile picture
@hooverman101

As several others mentioned before, a central vacuum is probably the best option. If your mom can afford one, and its possible to install one in her home, a central vac offers the greatest benefit. The power unit is located away from the main living space and it does not exhaust air back into the room. Some units, such as the VacuFlo that I have even exhaust outside of the house. All portable machines exhaust the air that has gone through the vacuum back into the air. No matter how well a portable vac may filter the air and even though it may be a very tiny amount, some dust does get back into the room. Also the exhaust from a portable vac can sometimes blow the existing dust in the room around as you are clean. While this small amount of dust is not likely to affect the average person, even those with moderate allergies, it certainly could affect someone with COPD. The fewer irritants in the house and fewer particles released back into the air by the vacuum, the better off your mom will be.

You can find central vacs in at all different price points and can customize the accessories to fit her own needs. After having the VacuFlo system for the past 6 years, there is much less dust in the house than there used to be. Something that I've also noticed is that friends that are highly allergic to cats, and used to be bothered by my cat, can now stay at my house for a much longer period of time before their allergies start acting up. No more pet dander blown around or exhuasted back into the room, its gone once you vacuum it up. Also, a central vacuum usually only needs to be emptied once to twice a year.


Post# 174153 , Reply# 36   3/20/2012 at 09:06 (2,933 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
Bagless is unhealthy.

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen

You have missed my point entirely. Find me a hospital that uses a bagless system IF they use vacuum cleaners. I think you'll find you won't be able to. Just because you don't suffer from dust allergies because you have a 10 year old vacuum cleaner that is bagless doesn't mean the whole world will get the same health benefiting results and when health establishments who require 100% clincially, dust free environments, the bagged vacuum is still justifiable.

Before I went into collecting vacuums, I adored the Dyson idea - but then I realised through actual ownership that the hype of bagless as being healthier doesn't stand up. Having to continually wash the filters, clear the shrouds and either use the existing filters as they start to tear apart before having to buy replacement filters per year or every 2 years wasn't a cost effective idea and it was far from a clean solution when pet hair got stuck up in the top shroud of the Dyson bin - and no amount of shaking the bin dislodged the clogged dirt.



Koobam

Maybe ALL of you in the U.S who have good weather, find it a liable excuse that bagless is healthy when you dump contents outside. Do you dump your body waste as well? No, you do that in the home and those who have wet and dry vacs would probably use the toilet to dump the dirt in there. Not exactly healthy but there you go, if you don't have a garden to fall back on. When its cold outside in Scotland or UK, not many people will dump their bagless vacuums outside in the refuse bin. I've only heard of a few local councils in the UK who have had the cheek to charge residents if they dust bins are overly messy with dust from vacuums. Luckily our council doesn't, but they did charge us to have a recycling paper dust bin, when other parts in Scotland back by the SAME council give the bin for free.

End of the day, you wouldn't blow your nose in your hand, you'd use a tissue to contain the bacteria. Pretty much the same way as a bagged vacuum versus bagless.


Post# 174155 , Reply# 37   3/20/2012 at 09:17 (2,933 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Sebo fan 

you have your opinions and I have mine, bag less is no more unhealthy than letting the dirt fester in a bag in your house for a month.  


Post# 174158 , Reply# 38   3/20/2012 at 09:35 (2,933 days old) by kirby (passadena md)        

i would have to say dyson

Post# 174160 , Reply# 39   3/20/2012 at 09:39 (2,933 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Well you're a salesman for both bagged and bagless brands - you stand by what you believe and lead your buyers on - I'll stand by the medical field and actual reality.

Dust can well "fester" in a bag, but at least its out of harms way. You can also add baking powder/bicarbonate to minimise the smell if you dont have a premium bagged vacuum, - can't really rely on that in a cheap bagless vacuum or premium.


Post# 174166 , Reply# 40   3/20/2012 at 10:48 (2,933 days old) by trebor ()        
IL Kirby Fan

No need for additonal comments on my end. I said what I needed to say. My e-mail address is open to you as well, but as long as no one is name calling, and the moderator sees no need to censure any participants in a discussion, I see no reason it cannot remain public.

Best,

Trebor


Post# 174169 , Reply# 41   3/20/2012 at 11:38 (2,933 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Sebo fan,

 

Thats the thing you don't need to sell dysons they sell themselves. Vorwerk is a very good vacuum but at double the price of a dyson with only a one year limited warranty compared to dysons 5 year extensive guarantee. they are difficult to sell. There is no way that a bagged vacuum is any more healthier than a dyson. If it were so then dyson wouldn't have gained the highest marks from all the allergy foundation. You are very biased . I have worked in the industry my entire life in R&D for many company's. The absolute truth is that every company that is out there that will bad mouth a dyson to every end but behind closed doors they will admit its extremely  good and not just that but have a true resentment to there predecessors' who rejected  the idea when it was brought to them in the eighties. Many heads rolled when dyson took over the market. I have no problem with either system both have there advantages and disadvantages. 


Post# 174197 , Reply# 42   3/20/2012 at 16:14 (2,933 days old) by trebor ()        
Just a question...and an opinion/observation.

are there any hospitals, nursing homes, or health care facilities that use dysons? I have traded in some other brands of bagless vacuums from medical facilities on Lindhaus.


The dysons must be treated much more gingerly that most brands of vacuums if they are to last. They have almost zero tolerance for misuse/abuse. Good or bad, right or wrong, it is what it is. The on-board hoses must be treated with extreme care or they will rip. The vacuum simply cannot be pulled around by the hose as if it were a canister, or the hose pulls out and tears. Initially Dyson considered the hose as a wear part and excluded it from warranty coverage.

I would like to see a Dyson compared to several other brands removing deeply imbedded sand from a carpet.

People like their Dysons well enough until they have a problem that costs them 100.00+
The no loss of suction is a moot point with the advent of better bag technologies that keep airflow longer. The cost of the bags is worth it to most people not to have to wash and dry a container each time. If I am going to do that, I may as well use my Rainbow. Why would I dump the container and put it back dusty? And I dislike the inability of the Dyson to clean under a bed without resorting to the attachments.


Post# 174242 , Reply# 43   3/20/2012 at 23:23 (2,933 days old) by hooverman101 ()        
decision made.

One bit of advice I got is this. Running the Vacuum about every other day. Been looking big time at other vacs. Staying with the Windtunnel for now. It is nice, yes. Going to deal with the vac I have. Not one bit of trouble.
My mom's home was built in the 1930's and as old as she is, well, she is done with the remodel. Fact her debt was high enough that she found out she can go for the reverse morgagage program. Soo, with that said, it will help her out. Then I can start working a little bit more full time, and get ready to go back to school sometime soon.


Post# 174250 , Reply# 44   3/21/2012 at 03:50 (2,933 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Hi Trebor 

 

I can only speak for my country were my company is the authorised dyson dealer for the entire country.

every thing is covered by the guarantee, even the hose, and belts. 

as for abuse , I have a builder here in SA that only uses dc19's and a dc14 for after building clean-up. he has been using them for 5 years now and made that decision after watching my dc19 blow his commercial Karcher out of the water when cleaning up concreate dust from my own home renovations. they are fast becoming the choice here for hotels too as they last longer than the sebo's and are cheap to repair. the hose on a dc23 cost less than the hose on a electrolux ultrasilencer whic sells fo half the price of the dyson. We did a bit of research comparing dyson repair to other makes and its still the cheapest to repair here. Miele and sebo been the most expensive to repair.

 

I just checked thru my records  and yes I have two medical buildings using dysons , the one ,,, oh certain people wont like this much , is the allergy research facility of UCT , university of Cape Town. there are allot of doctors offices that use them too

 

 

As for the under the bed thing, yes i don't like that either but I have the dc35 to go under the bed.

 

On that note though if sebo got there act together in SA and stopped trying to rip of customers with spares parts and bags then I would sell them again too, they are good vacuums. But at $ 150.00 for a brush roll they are insane at the moment  


Post# 174257 , Reply# 45   3/21/2012 at 07:54 (2,932 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen - Dysons dont sell themselves - they sell built on a reputation that everyone knows about due to the advertising and can ring off the advertising claim- same as Hoover with its "sweeps as it beats as it cleans" principle of metal bar upright vacs. Dyson also sold on a previous reputation that you wouldn't have to replace "anything" on a Dyson to push not to having dust bags. Shame they turned a blind eye to the fact that DRIVE BELTS on their uprights needed to be replaced.

I am very biased - with good reason - I had 3 Dyson vacs and the last model being the City Vac. Best model I think they ever made was the original DC01. I'm only a consumer and previous owner who has seen past a product by its claims and approval promises.

I'll give you another example. I have an electric blanket that came with additional claims that it was antibacterial coated, has an inner antibacterial coating that claims to be BAF approved - British Allergy Foundation approved as well as another claim that it kills 72% of bug bites. Which one when compared to a more basic, lower priced electric blanket made of thicker, multiple fibres produced the more dust? One that was BAF approved!

You can tell me Dyson vacs are healthier than the more conventional bagless cyclonic vacs. I think they're bad as each other. Claims and approvals can't always be proved and some approvals aren't even worth the paper they're printed on.

I'm surprised Vorwerk only come with a 1 guarantee, but then they may not need the extended guarantee due to the quality and workmanship, or reliability. Same with Miele, same with SEBO. Some models come with a 10 year guarantee as a sales incentive against the standard 2 year guarantee. SEBO models come with a 5 year guarantee as standard. Some brands simply don't need it against some brands who do.


Post# 174260 , Reply# 46   3/21/2012 at 08:55 (2,932 days old) by trebor ()        
Gsheen...

I can actually understand the Dysons in use in a medical facility. NONE of the Drs. Nurses or techs actually use the machines. I'd like to be a fly on he wall if one of the cleaning personnel ever actually emptied a dust bin with their sight. I am sure all of the emptying takes place in a maintenance room, far away from the offices, labs and patient rooms.

As for the warranty, I said Dysons USED to exclude the upright hoses here in the US. Most of the machines we service are out of warranty, because Dyson pulled our dealership before I started. Why? Because although we repaired a ton of machines, and sold lots of parts, we did not sell enough new machines to suit Dyson. So, now we make even more money repairing them! What a stupid move. There is NO Dyson warranty station locally anymore. That fact alone helps me trade Dysons in. Customers do not want to be bothered boxing up their vacuum and sending it it. If they spent 500.00 once, they will spend more the second time on something better.

Neither contractors nor medical facilities cleaners have carpets of any thickness to clean. I do not imagine they would have much use for the attachments, either. So Dyson has found their niche market in SA, it seems.

As to the durability factor, it just blows my mind. How could Dysons be so much more durable in SA than in the US, unless Dyson is intentionally using differing grades of plastic for different countries? That is not out of the question. Such things have been done before in other industries as well.

I don't like the feel of a Dyson in my hand, I do not think they are comfortable to use, and only the ball machines are easily maneuverable. Equivalent filtration, better performance, and much greater ease of use are available in other brands. I guess it comes down to faith, either you are a believer or you are not.


Post# 174265 , Reply# 47   3/21/2012 at 09:37 (2,932 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Trebor - its the same in the UK - which probably explains a major reason to why there aren't many private repairers anymore - cheap vacuum cleaners come with the brand's stickers stating "dont take this back to the shop you bought it from, phone us," and usually it is much cheaper dealing with the brand itself.

When it came to sending my Vax Mach Air back to Vax after the original model's front floor head kept sticking and not going down flat to clean floors with, they included an optional surcharge, that if the machine's bagless filters were dirty they would charge the customer an extra 35 as a penalty. However, Vax did pick up the machine free of charge against having to do the travelling or pay out cost if you were to send the vacuum cleaner back to the shop you bought it from.

In hospitals, most of the floors are hard floors for the main traffic and therefore use a much larger twin bodied upright or hard floor vac. However there are carpets in rooms like X ray rooms dependent on the health factor, day care rooms, respite care rooms and even some visiting rooms. Not all the seats are vinyl backed and I often seen cleaners come in with Henry or SEBO uprights to vacuum down the seats as well cleaning out the lifts.


Post# 174267 , Reply# 48   3/21/2012 at 10:28 (2,932 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

On the subject of durability 

This is my dc23 shop vac, so called as all its ever been used for is to clean up after our extensive renovations. Its also used in our shop to clean out other vacs.

Its 2 years old . It sucks up rubble and concrete and brick and wood chips and every thing you should not suck up in a ordinary vacuum and its done just fine. it gets no special treatment, in fact it gets abused.  


Post# 174269 , Reply# 49   3/21/2012 at 10:38 (2,932 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

On Bags , when they were paper they were fantastic but now they are so called high filtration material. High filtration meaning they let all the dirt through. This is a pic of a miele that came in today, we get these all the time. take a look at the dirt on the outside of the bag. the bag is not even half full. so now tell me that you do not come into contact with dust when you use a bagged vacuum , The only way that is possible is i you have the slide like on a lindhaus.    PS Sebo fan , dyson does no advertising in SA at all they sell by word of mouth. 90% of my customers are word of mouth.


Post# 174272 , Reply# 50   3/21/2012 at 12:59 (2,932 days old) by trebor ()        
Gsheen...

The vac in your pic is a canister, and the hose is more durable than the hose on the uprights. All I can say is I am more and more convinced that Dyson uses a cheaper grade of plastic in their machines for the North American market. The Dysons here do not hold up to that kind of use/abuse.

The high-filtration bags are electrostatic. They can be overwhelmed depending on what kind of dirt and how much is picked up. The paper bags are the very ones that gave validity to Dyson's claim of no loss of suction because they coated with dirt and lost power. The high filtration bags are usually better filters that the one you show in the pic. One pic of anything proves nothing. I have seen dirty Miele bag compartments, sure, but most of them are clean. I have seen plenty of absolutely filthy Dysons. What shocked me was seeing a clean looking Dyson cyclone assembly blown out with compressed air, clouds of dust! I suppose that a lot of that could be eliminated if the vacuum was left to run for 20-30 sec after finishing vacuuming, before shutting it off. But who does that?

How dirty a vacuum gets inside really depends on whether or not it is cleaning up only current dirt, in which case the bags last longer, or, if it is always attempting to correct a backlog of dirt, but never can because it is used to do maintenance vacuuming. If the air passing into and through the bag is relatively clean, that is carrying only the recently tracked in dirt, the vacuum will stay much cleaner than if the air is laden with dirt. Lots of dirt = high volume of particles per cubic inch per sec causing dirt leakage through the bag even before it is full, or little dirt = low volume of particles per cubic inch per second allowing the bag to retain a much higher percentage even though it is in the vacuum longer.

The mind boggles at the complexity of the science of dirt removal.


Post# 174274 , Reply# 51   3/21/2012 at 13:44 (2,932 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Hi Trebor 

 

Yes I have had damaged torn dyson hoses but only on dc07, not the newer dc14 and dc25. However it's about customer use or abuse. My dc07 which is 2005 model has been used every day of its life and used to clean up all sorts and I have never broken the hose. Its a UK model fitted with a USA sole plate and brush. I have a dc19 that has been thru worse. Our house is brick and concrete so any renovations cause massive dust and bits of rubble. 

 

On the USA plastic difference , I work on a lot of USA dyson's( needing conversion from 110v-220v) , people moving back from there stay there. I have never noticed any difference in the quality, I actually prefer the brush rolls fitted to the USA spec dysons. at the moment we have a dc07 and a dc25 that are in for voltage changes. I checked both against Uk and SA models , they all seem to be of similar quality. 

 

We have very fine dust in SA. The miele's always look like this 


Post# 174275 , Reply# 52   3/21/2012 at 13:53 (2,932 days old) by venson ()        
@gsheen . . .

Hi,

I don't know what they did to that Miele but it looks like they were out to kill it.

At about $5.00 a bag I can't afford to toss a dust bag as much I'd like but even with pushing things I have never had this problem. Come to think of it, I never even had such a problem with Kenmore cans which I see as prone to dust blowback in the bag chamber.

My high-filtration bags fill up and even lose that nice bright white look they have when freshly installed but never leak dust around the bag mouth like that. The bag chamber stays clean save for a most minute amount that shows up after several months without a wipe.

To keep myself honest, I just went and checked my machine. The bag's full up but the indicator hasn't come out to stay and the inside of the bag chamber shows no dust build up. Whatever I went after -- household dust, Florida sand, tracked in leaves and the moth I attacked the other night are all in the bag.

Oh, I forgot. Besides the little one amp stick vac, the Miele is the only vacuum in the house.

Rest assured, despite the expense, if my Capricorn could not contain dust as well as the company claimed it would -- the reason I bought it -- it would be out on the trash heap in a heartbeat. There many issues that I have a bone to pick about re Miele in general but at least, with the purchase of my model, I got what I expected to buy.

Best,

Venson


Post# 174279 , Reply# 53   3/21/2012 at 14:50 (2,932 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Hi Venson , I wonder if its not a SA thing. I bought a brand new Miele cat&dog s7000 upright last year and actually made a post about the bags leaking dust. here is the pic, I had had it for 2 weeks I think , from new and this is what it looked like 


Post# 174284 , Reply# 54   3/21/2012 at 15:21 (2,932 days old) by trebor ()        
gsheen..

I'll bet you always make sure the hose is pointed in the direction of use, and that you never pull the upright around like a canister by the hose. And I am sure you maintain them well.



Post# 174287 , Reply# 55   3/21/2012 at 15:53 (2,932 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Hi Trebor 

 

Yes you are right. The only machine that gets abused is that poor dc23 but even then I look after it by cleaning it regularly. The bin takes a beating though with all the renovations going on here.

But yea I look after my stuff.  

My 8 year old lawn mower looks like it did when I first bought it and that gets used every week.

 

Any vacuum will have a lengthy life span if you look after it. I like all vacuums bagged a bag-less.


Post# 174289 , Reply# 56   3/21/2012 at 16:32 (2,932 days old) by venson ()        
@gsheen . . .

Thanks, interesting picture. The only kind of dust I've seen like that is plaster dust, maybe talc. It's pretty insidious stuff.

(Being it's South Africa, could it be diamond dust maybe?)

Back in the '70s I lent a neighbor the Sunbeam Courier I owned without any idea he was about to expose the brick on one of the walls in his place. The vacuum was returned DOA after shop vac duty.

I took it to a Sunbeam repair center and it was found that plaster dust had gotten into the switch mechanism and, because it was so fine, shorted it out -- something I'd never ever before heard of.

Venson


Post# 174291 , Reply# 57   3/21/2012 at 16:35 (2,932 days old) by pr-21 (Middletown, OH)        
Both Canister and Upright Mieles had the Hyclean Bag

pr-21's profile picture
Miele admitted they had an issue with the hyclean bags and both those vacuums were using them. They need the new bags AirClean. Someone on the forum said Miele had actually replaced hepa filters for free due to this problem. Gasket was not correct....



Bud Mattingly
pr-21


Post# 174294 , Reply# 58   3/21/2012 at 17:04 (2,932 days old) by Koobam ()        
Dysons are truly HEPA sealed

Here's a video proving that not only do Dysons exhibit excellent floor pickup - but also have a truly sealed HEPA system -







CLICK HERE TO GO TO Koobam's LINK


Post# 174298 , Reply# 59   3/21/2012 at 17:24 (2,932 days old) by Sanifan ()        
Impressive use of the DC23...

Boy, that's impressive. Concrete chunks in there, no less.

I don't push my DC23 that hard, but I have to say the filtration on mine has been great. That's not the cyclonic separation it bulletproof, necessarily, but the filtration of dust is so good it doesn't get into the air.

My girlfriend is hyper-allergic to a bunch of stuff. For a while we were using her Kenmore vacuum cleaner. It was a bagged model that's made by Panasonic. I don't think the filters had been maintained too well as every time we used it we could feel that uncomfortable feeling of fine dust on our skin and in our lungs. I hated it, and she felt it every time too. When we got the DC23, it was a revelation. It seemed to clean much better and the air was so clean feeling after we got done.

I bought the DC23 from a local thrift store in mint, as-new condition. This store gets a lot of overstock and clearance donations from Target (based on the Target house brand products and the distinctive labeling stickers on many of the goods). I believe that this vac was a floor display model based on its unused condition and stickers. As you may or may not know, floor displays at Target can only be touched and looked at, but they cannot be taken off the shelf or powered on. So it had never been used.

It turns out that when Target had assembled the vac for display, they had neglected to put in the user serviceable washable hepa pre-filter. This was my first Dyson, so I had no idea to check for that. So for the first 4 or 5 months we had been using that vac with no hepa pre-filter. All the filtering was done by the big pleated post-motor hepa filter, the one that isn't supposed to be user serviceable. After I found out that this was happening, I took the big post-filter out and washed it with warm water and dish washing soap. Interestingly, it didn't look dirty when I took it out, and there was no sign of dirty water coming off of it when I washed it. I ordered a replacement for the missing pre-filter.

With the pre-filter in place it's still filtering just as well now, and that's to say very well. Like a champ. I couldn't be happier.

I do have to agree with Gareth that emptying the bagless cyclonic bin is no messier than disposing a used paper bag. I do use care however: I hold onto the bottom of hinged cylinder door whenever I open it and ease it open. Then I slowly pour the dust and debris out, just so it's right above bottom of the trash bin, or just above whatever surface I'm pouring it onto. Then I'll give it a light shake to dislodge any caked on dust. By doing it this way the dust doesn't drop, hit the bottom of the bin, and form a big cloud. If you hold the cylinder above the trash bin, even a foot, and pop open the door, you WILL get a big cloud of dust after the debris drops and hits.

Just look at it as if you were dumping out a cup full of flour. If you put the lip of the cup near the floor, or surface, and slowly pour it out, there will hardly be any flying dust. If you take that cup and invert it at a distance of a foot or two above the floor or surface the impact will, of course, cause a ton of flour to fill the air.

The problem with removing a used bag from a vacuum is that the bag puffs up to its full degree, fully filling out the bag compartment, as air is sucked into and and out of it during vacuuming. When you take the bag out it's nearly impossible to do so without squeezing or collapsing the bag to some degree. It acts like a bellows, and it's amazing how much dust puffs out with just a minor squeeze. In fact, unless the bag is packed full of debris, it's unavoidable to collapse the portion of the bag that contains only air. I always get more than a good puff of dust despite being extra careful not to do so.

A few bag designs do exist that minimize this problem. I'm thinking about bags that have hard cardboard as a structural surface and a fold-over tab to close up the hole. An example are bags used by Electrolux uprights, and on canisters like the Eureka Mighty Mite. The squeezing/collapsing is minimized because you can grab the edges of the cardboard, pull the bag straight up or out, and close the tab. Because the cardboard is solid and does not collapse when you handle it, there's no bellows effect to blow out dust.





Post# 174340 , Reply# 60   3/22/2012 at 06:56 (2,931 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

@ venson 

 

NO no diamond dust :( but yes it was some drywall dust) what interested me was that I used my dyson dc25 to vacuuum the rest of he room and not a hint of drywall dust on the filter at all.

 

We still have the miele and it still does that with new bags in we bought it as a sample vac when we were going to sell them, its a great vacuum, super quiet but every time I change the bag I take it to the workshop and blow out the container and filters. so much for bags having no contact with dust .

 

 I have never seen so many Miele's with burnt out motors as I do these days, sure they are using a cheaper higher revving motor but when we disassemble the machine the insides are coated in dust and the charcoal filter is packed with dust

 

we have the same problem with the new Kirby bags here to. 

 

Here's the way I see it as trebor said it was the paper bags that clogged that gave rise to James Dysons invention. 

the paper bags would clogg with fine dust.The new hign filtration bags do not clog, so If the fine dust is not clogging the bags were is it going?? 

To give something high airflow rate you make the pours in the material bigger so that air can pass more easily through it.

 

if you tool drywall dust and sucked it up with a paper bag the machine would clogg fast but no dust on the inside of the caseing do the same with the new high filtration bags and they won't clogg as fast but there will be a lot of dust on the inside of the casing.. I did this with a miele, and kirby 

 

Then I found out this dirty little secret. paper is expensive very expensive and the machines that manufacture the bags cost the good part of a few million dollars , this new synthetic material is not expensive and the machines needed for its manufacture from material to bag cost about $ 100 000 . that's why its suddenly become so popular, its cheaper to manufacture and yet they charge us more for it 


Post# 174342 , Reply# 61   3/22/2012 at 07:06 (2,931 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen - do 90% of your customers who don't see advertising, ever check the "100% no loss of suction," claims shown on the internet for Dyson models?

Post# 174343 , Reply# 62   3/22/2012 at 07:38 (2,931 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Sebo Fan 

 

Most first time buyers of a dyson in SA buy it due to the 5 year guarantee. Dysons are about 4 times the price of he avarage vacum purchase in SA. Because people have cleaning lady's who clean the house most people don't give much though to there vacuum. Most of our first time customers have never heard of a dyson before!!!!!

 

People here aren't as concearned  with vacuuming as in other country's . Our climate is great beautifull, were I stau the scenery is awesome. Our houses windows and doors are all open so dust gets in any way. Right now Im sitting in my office which is a 8m x 7m room , It has two sets of french door leading out to different parts of the garden both fully open and  6 windows all open too. we have great weather so people spend more time outside than in. even in winter. even though I vacuumed about an hour ago some leaves have blown in from outside onto the carpet. you can dust now and in an hour there will be a faint covering of dust again. 

 

Just for the record I have never noticed even the slightest loss of suction in any of my dysons but then again I know how to use them properly. even that dc23 that sucks up rubble has great suction and airflow after its job. and not a trace of building dust on the filter.. 

 

I often have them come in with no suction , but then you see the customers DON'T follow the simple instructions don't go above the max mark on the bin and it will work great, go above the max mark and the dirt will get sucked up into the cyclone clogging it up , Its a rather simple thing but then you know some people are just too simple to follow an instruction :) 


Post# 174348 , Reply# 63   3/22/2012 at 08:22 (2,931 days old) by trebor ()        
The problem with the filtrete bags...

is the same as the problem with HEPA filtration material being tested separately from the vacuum in which it is to be used. The number of dirt paticles per unit of air at a given rate of flow.

The electrostatic material can only capture so much. Exceed its capacity and there will be dirt escaping. Look at the old Airway bags, 28 layer filter paper in a metal cage. Excellent filtration, and the motors were always clean, even in very old machines.




This post was last edited 03/22/2012 at 09:17
Post# 174432 , Reply# 64   3/22/2012 at 21:13 (2,931 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
As you say gsheen, yes, people ignore instructions.

But to reiterate what Trebor has just referred to, " The electrostatic material can only capture so much. Exceed its capacity and there will be dirt escaping." So even if airflow is flowing through a Dyson, with customers ignoring the bag full line on the bin and allowing dust to continually jam up in the shroud filter, the electrostatic filter on the base by the motor can only compensate so much.

Yes Ive heard of South Africa. My best friend moved there about 5 years ago. They went and bought a Sebo. It's still there, still works and the family who are renting off them say its the best they've had and they have sand all around the back of their home. Mind you, with people coming up to the house daily demanding for food or money, a vacuum cleaner is the least of their worries.


Post# 174464 , Reply# 65   3/23/2012 at 00:54 (2,931 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Yes South Africa is great but your friends are exaggerating  a bit , people don't come to your house begging for food and money ( not unless the house they bought is in the less fortunate area's and I doubt that. the problem here is that allot of people are just to lazy to work , you will get beggars but at street lights in the city centres but you get those in every city.

 

Just out of interest were did your friend stay that he has sand all around the back of his house ,,, in the desert maybee :)  


Post# 174469 , Reply# 66   3/23/2012 at 01:13 (2,931 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Filtrete type bags-Kirby recommends you change the bag if you see it discoloring or dust does start to migrate thru it.For me I have seen MORE dust problems with paper vacuum bags than the Filtrete type ones.Yes-the AirWay thick crepe paper type bags had no dust leakage-but they did obstruct airflow-try a Filtrete replacement bag for AirWay and there is a diffrence.The thick paper AirWay bags are no more-they went under-and the equipment for making their bags wore out and could not be repaired.that was part of the demise of them.for the Meile vacuums-sounds like users aren't using the right bags or the bag fill tube from the hose isn't seating into the bag intake properly.I haven't had any dust issues in the bag compartments of my Meile vacuums-had issues though,with the older paper Meile bags.and more clogging.Will take the Filtrete over paper anytime.

Post# 174480 , Reply# 67   3/23/2012 at 02:53 (2,931 days old) by mark40511 (Lexington, KY)        

mark40511's profile picture
All this talk about bags has me wondering - has technology improved the paper bags? Are paper bags bought today BETTER than paper bags bought, say in the 70s? - Or has the only advancement been the introduction of the synthetic cloth type bags? I know the bags I have say microlined or 4 ply, but I'm not sure if those type of paper bags even existed back then.

Post# 174488 , Reply# 68   3/23/2012 at 06:20 (2,930 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

the multiply paper bags are better than the single layer ones-the single layer clogs faster-and has more dust leakage-esp when the bag is clogged-the suction starts pulling the dirt thru the bag or bursts it.I received a Royal "Pony" powertank vacuum in my collection several years ago-it had a single layer "bojack" bag in it-the motor of that Royal sucked most of the fine dirt thru that bag-was inside the cloth one and in the motor filter.The Royal "yellow" multilayer bags work fine in those machines-the single layer bags are unusuable in those Powertank vacuums.

Post# 174531 , Reply# 69   3/23/2012 at 13:12 (2,930 days old) by trebor ()        
Electolux was...

the second manufacturer to introduce multi-layer bags. Three layers of thick, but porous facial tissue like material inside the single layer of paper. It worled well.

Post# 174654 , Reply# 70   3/24/2012 at 06:08 (2,929 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen - Cape Town.

Post# 174705 , Reply# 71   3/24/2012 at 13:17 (2,929 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Sebo fan 

 

and he has sand all around his house , were does he stay on the beach 


Post# 174717 , Reply# 72   3/24/2012 at 14:30 (2,929 days old) by venson ()        
@mark40511 . . .

"All this talk about bags has me wondering - has technology improved the paper bags?"

At the beginning of things the disposal dust bags of a number of machines were to designed to work integrally with the individual system it was designed for. As has been stated many times here, AirWay and then Luxes from the Model LX were used bags and designs meant to allow appreciable airflow as they filled. Filter Queen did this as well though it made use of cellulose cones.

I know from experience that the use of substitutes made quite a difference -- and not for the better. Given the type of dust generally found in an individual household, you could use the dial on the automatic cleaners to fine-tune the shut-off mechanism (a rubber diaphragm) to allow the bag to fill all the way or just part way. It was simple enough once you learned which setting best served your needs but bags made specifically for those cleaners assured a consistent result.

Filter Queens cellulose cones filtered extremely well and helped provide its great dust capacity by providing lots of air surface even when the cyclonics stop as dirt jams up in the dust container.

AirWay canister bags (probably first) were designed to work in bag chamber made to provide air movement all around. Electrolux had the idea almost all along but didn't actually build a bag enclosure in its machines until the Model LX. That said . . .

There are a lot of vac bags that are more afterthoughts than bags designed to promote the operation of a specifically engineered and designed idea. Of course there's always money to consider. How much will people continually pay for a good idea even if it works. If I scream about $20 for a pack of four bags there's lot of economy influenced folks that are yelling about the prices even on lesser quality bags. Thought to the quality and usefulness of disposable bags seems to lie more with makers of pricey, high-end niche brands. They expect users of cheaper bagged brands to simply go buy more.

The things that make a vacuum or just about anything admirable is to look it over and be able to see that its manufacturer put some serious thought into the product.


Post# 174722 , Reply# 73   3/24/2012 at 15:44 (2,929 days old) by kenkart ()        
Why Don't all of you!!!

Just get a real vacuum, one that DOES NOT blow dust, runs forever and is quiet!!! A FILTER QUEEN!

Post# 174723 , Reply# 74   3/24/2012 at 15:54 (2,929 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

ooo I love my filterqueens , both are  majestic models 


Post# 174724 , Reply# 75   3/24/2012 at 16:03 (2,929 days old) by mark40511 (Lexington, KY)        

mark40511's profile picture
I've heard people refer to them as filthy queens before.

Post# 174725 , Reply# 76   3/24/2012 at 16:35 (2,929 days old) by venson ()        
"filthy queens"

They may have gained such a rep by way of the wide-mouthed dust container. Back in the day, if I emptied it inside my apartment, I used to lay yesterday's newspaper over the top of the bin and then invert it. You had to be careful in drawing the edges of the newspaper together to avoid stirring up dust. Once the contents and used cone were wrapped up off to the trash they went. No biggie and I could clean a good while between emptyings.

As long as the filter cone is properly in place, all three tabs on the cone visible at the sealing ring where top and bottom clamp together, you're good to go.


Post# 174728 , Reply# 77   3/24/2012 at 16:49 (2,929 days old) by Trebor ()        
For awhile...

Filter queen offered filter cones sealed to a plastic baggie. Did not last long.

Post# 174731 , Reply# 78   3/24/2012 at 17:15 (2,929 days old) by pr-21 (Middletown, OH)        
Plastic trash bag

pr-21's profile picture
I use a plastic trash bag and place over the cone and dust bin. Take it to the garage and invert it holding trash bag tight around dust bin, wipe out with a paper towel and throw plastic trash bag in the trash. No Mess.


Bud Mattingly
PR-21


Post# 174765 , Reply# 79   3/25/2012 at 05:04 (2,929 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
Whoops, a problem with Bagless!

sebo_fan's profile picture
Out of interest, I did a spot of carpet cleaning yesterday. I'm still waiting for my repaired Bissell washer to return from its repair/service. In the meantime I've resorted to cleaning on the spot stains with Sebo DUO P powder. This stuff is great. Anyway.. there I was going around the carpet putting the powder down, rubbing it in and getting rid of the stains. This is like microfibre power - very small, very grainy. Went to grab the nearest vacuum to hand which was my Vax Mach Air (it now has new filters, since it's been a year and a half since I bought it and the top, original filter is beyond constant washing out).

Vacuuming along quite the thing, all powder removed, all of it visible in the clear bin. Then I discovered a thin line of powder OUTSIDE the bin, clinging to the plastic. So much for being sealed! You may of course experience this with the comparative Hoover Windtunnel Air.


Post# 174768 , Reply# 80   3/25/2012 at 06:29 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Hi Sebo fan

 

check your bin seal at the bottom, the trouble with the push button release system on most bag less vacuums is that the seal can deteriorate or get damaged when something gets stuck on it and the bin door is closed deforming the rubber. we had some trouble on some dc14 dysons like that. we simply replaced the seal on the bin door and it solved the problem


Post# 174769 , Reply# 81   3/25/2012 at 07:02 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
Quite amusing for the brand that says you wont have to buy extras, from having to buy bin bags to empty it if you want to stay away from the dust, to having to buy filters regardless every year or so and now you have to replace the seal on the dust bin to keep it from spewing out dust. Way to go!!!!

Pass me those H4's .........


Post# 174775 , Reply# 82   3/25/2012 at 09:22 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

on the dyson the bin seals were replaced under guarantee


Post# 174779 , Reply# 83   3/25/2012 at 09:31 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        
Guarantee?

turbomaster1984's profile picture
and that makes it ok for the customer to have extra hassle arranging a repair that shouldnt of happened in the first place? Yet another basic flaw that should of been sorted long before production took place.



Post# 174780 , Reply# 84   3/25/2012 at 09:41 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

well so far in SA there have been only 5 cases, my 5 year old dc14 has never done it. every machine breaks no matter what make , hoovers , kiry's sebo's rainbows you name it they all have flaws and break. you like turbo masters , so do I my mom had 3 when they were new all of our family members bought them too they were the best selling upright in South Africa in there day and yet they all broke in the same places , the lower back casing and the chasis just behind the left wheel. They had a built in flaw , there motor was to heavy for there back casing and upright switch causing stress fractures whenever you wheeled the machine around on its back wheels. Ever manufacturer has them 


Post# 174782 , Reply# 85   3/25/2012 at 09:55 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
Yes I see your point but then the rules of evolution say we learn from mistakes. Hoover's Turbomaster Freedom Bagless had poor seals and leaked dust terribly. dyson researches? Why didnt they realise a crappy seal will eventually perish and break the dust holding of a cleaner?

Simple Physics here. and its taken Dyson and other makes 20 years to realise this?

Motors and mechanicals will always break but the very seals that keep the dust in for the purpose of the machines use should have been fit for use from the very start.

Hell even washing machine door seals have come a long way since the 70's and 80;s where occasional replacement was needed due to the rubber perishing on hot washes and chemical attack. Now they are usually replaced due to REAL user error from gashes and cuts through pockets not being checked of sharp objects and not heat/chemical breakdown.



Post# 174786 , Reply# 86   3/25/2012 at 10:13 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Yes I see what you mean too, however , I have only done 5 and 3 of those were due to customer neglagence . Its amazing what people suck up in a vacuum , hell I have even had a LIVE hamster in a Hitachi vacuum hose, customers will suck up broken glass and not empty the bin carfully so a piece will get stuck and damage the seal. 

 

funny thing is I still prefer the old type bins like those found on the dc08/19/29 machines , I have kids and when lego gets sucked up its easier to get it out of those style bins. 


Post# 174791 , Reply# 87   3/25/2012 at 11:27 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
well, I for one find your perception of customer abuse quite unusual.

You should not be sucking up glass? When somone knocks a christmas bauble off the tree and steps on it crushing it into the carpet I for one like the rest of this country would not exactly reach for the dustpan and brush to be sure of removing all of the glass.

Same as dropping a glass, have smashed glasses on my kitchen floor and il be damned if im not using a vac to get it up off the rug. I find that blame on the user null and void, its only common sense that glass will be sucked up by users even particles small enough to go up the hose which would pose a risk of lacerations if picked up with hands.

Still dont understand why the rubber seal is an issue and if cuts are a threat to it then bagless manufacturers ought to go back to the drawing board and design something of use.



Post# 174794 , Reply# 88   3/25/2012 at 12:53 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

If you read it properly you would see I never mentioned that the customer abuse had any thing to do with glass. 

However  whether you have bagged or bagless vacuums (Unless shop vacs) are not designed to pick up glass. 

 

I mean would you suck up large pieces of glass with your turbo master. No you wouldn't as it would damage the fan  and the flexible hose if you used that and it could and likely would rupture the bag.

 

Vacuum cleaners are designed for picking up dust and dirt. 

 

BUT Yes I have sucked up glass with my vacuum but I have the brains to pick up the big pieces with the dustpan first. Unfortunately allot of customers don't.

 

90% of the work we do is customer abuse, I had a machine come in yesterday with a jammed brush roll and the entire under body screws showed sever rust. the brush roll bearings had rusted shut and were full of rust. When I called the customer she admitted that she had spilt wine on the carpet. She had followed an old wives tale of putting salt on the wet carpet and suckin it up with he vacuum. she said the stain disappeared . she was so happy until I handed her the quote for repairing her vorwerk brush roll base plate and the entire brush drive mechanism. It would have been cheaper to call in a carpet cleaner 


Post# 174796 , Reply# 89   3/25/2012 at 13:11 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
Yes I see what you mean too, however , I have only done 5 and 3 of those were due to customer neglagence . Its amazing what people suck up in a vacuum , hell I have even had a LIVE hamster in a Hitachi vacuum hose, customers will suck up broken glass and not empty the bin carfully so a piece will get stuck and damage the seal.

The above staement clearly says to me that at least one of the seals you have replaced has been due to broken glass. Otherwise how could you make a comment like that?

So yes you did mention it.

As for the Turbomaster, go back to my evolution statement. I do use mine to clean up glass and have no issues but thats my choice although yes your right the machine and bag could get damaged.

If Dyson really was advanced as they make out to be then they should be looking at issues to SOLVE issues to real life scenarios. Cleaning up broken glass IS requirement of its use from time to time and my point is BY NOW WE SHOULD HAVE DESIGNS TO ALLOW USERS TO DO SO. WHY IS IT WE DONT? Would you allow your children to crawl across a carpet you had not used a vacuum to clean up broken glass?

I doubt many parents would, so if Dyson is listening to consumers why do their machines not handle such things?

Its not that difficult surely.


Post# 174799 , Reply# 90   3/25/2012 at 13:30 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Ok you have a point but then why just dyson , why does every one in the forum love to knock  dyson, This is ent to be a forum were people who love vacuums can discuss them , not break down and nock each others favourite machines,  kirby's sell for 4 times more than a dyson and if you listen to there marketing hype is supposed to be the most advanced vacuum in the world and yet if you sucked glass it could damage it just as badly. Any domestic vacuum out there can be damaged by glass

 

The machine that had a damaged bin seal due to glass was a samsung/bissel that we had in here on thursday. I never said it was a dyson 

 

BTW kids walk babies crawl  


Post# 174804 , Reply# 91   3/25/2012 at 13:58 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
My point with taking Dysons as an EXAMPLE is that their marketing claims to outperform anything else so if that is the case why shouldnt they pick up glass after all its a customer requirement?

I will also apply that comment to any other bagless cleaner just to be sure.

Your reading too much into my posts and assuming im here to bash Dysons, im not. Ive had 4 i know exactly what they are like as a brand and how the performance is. I also dont need to make comment on them, I dont have them anymore thus they dont hold much interest to me these days.

Im sorry you dont like my regional dialect and slang, Kids/babies/children/young human beings/bairns/wee ones, all the same to me as im sure S.A. has such terms closely related however not living there or ever visiting i couldnt say. I can assure you we do in the UK.


Post# 174806 , Reply# 92   3/25/2012 at 14:05 (2,928 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
My point with taking Dysons as an EXAMPLE is that their marketing claims to outperform anything else so if that is the case why shouldnt they pick up glass after all its a customer requirement?


i also forgot to add the following....

and why do the seals on Dysons also leak dust and require replacing as you mention?

its been a long day today sorry for any confusement


Post# 174807 , Reply# 93   3/25/2012 at 14:07 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Hi Robert 

Sorry if you took that offensivly I in no way intended it to be.

 

any way I do understand what ou are saying. I sell dysons in my shop and use them in my home but by no means think they are faultless. I also wish the rest of the world could get the models the USA gets with there aggresive brush rolls , I have 3 USA models that I have converted to run on 220 v and there cleaning performance leaves the UK and eu models in the dust.

 

On another point my mom also had a moulinex major , and then a hoover turbomaster with a vax inbetween for cleaning carpets 

 

 

 

 


Post# 174808 , Reply# 94   3/25/2012 at 14:15 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

No worrys mate 

 

out of the five we had two machines with deformed seals , one of the hassles we have encountered is that customers will wash the bin out ald leave it with the lid open in the sun, In certain areas, were all five machines came from it can easilly reach 45deg c , the rubber would become soft and deform when the bin was closed causing a faulty seal. This is only a presumtion as we did try and replicate this but could not get the exact results.

 

funny thing is if you look further up this thread you will see a pic of my dc23 that I use for cleaning up after building work here at home. its bin seals tight with no dust residue on the outside of the tank and it really gets abused. 


Post# 174835 , Reply# 95   3/25/2012 at 19:32 (2,928 days old) by kenkart ()        
The Proof!

Is when you dis assemble any vacuum after several years use.....Most of the so called hepa machines as well as many of the bagless machines and most Rainbows will have fans packed with dust, That is what sold me on a Filter Queen, I have taken 30 year old FQs apart , only to find there was NOTHING in the fans..

Post# 174838 , Reply# 96   3/25/2012 at 20:31 (2,928 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
"Vacuum cleaners are designed for picking up dust and di

sebo_fan's profile picture
Yes, they are designed for picking up general dust - but outside that equation, some can also pick up a lot more like paper clips, tacks, small screws, bolts and glass. All of which my Sebo uprights can pick up without breaking the brush rolls and just seems happy enough to take everything up into the bag. My study sees a lot of paper work, from paper shredding which includes the odd paper clips, tacks and plastic clips - all of which gets passed through the shredder without being shredded, and at times when it comes to emptying the bin into a bag, these bits and paper get chucked onto the carpet.

Miele dust bags are similar to SEBO's - strong enough to take a tack or two, or anything reasonably sharp. Infact Miele's videos about the HyClean bag shows its inner layers keeping back sharp objects like tacks/pins.

I checked the seal on the Vax, but it is perfectly sealed - it just seems to be a fact that the powder seems to coat the outside of the bin = perhaps due to the poor concertina dust channel at the side. If I can get my finger wedged to open it, there's nothing stopping the force of suction air pushing powder out - but I'm not too worried. Next time I'll use a bagged vacuum, Bosch, Miele or Sebo to get the powder off.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK


Post# 174851 , Reply# 97   3/25/2012 at 21:49 (2,928 days old) by venson ()        
@kenkart . . .

It's funny but whenever I think of protection from dust, I first think of the vacuum's motor. I rest easier feeling assured there's minimal chance for dust build up in the cleaner's working parts. For that reason, I too liked Filter Queen.

My peeves were that Health-Mor left off making the cord-reel base and that machine was always a little annoying when you worked with it on stairs.

Though there were very early Rexair Model Bs that had a cloth filter up top, I feel Rexair and Rainbow went on with the 100-percent capture myth because it wasn't easy for a user to have a look at anything beyond their water pan and separator to make them think better of the arrangement of things. Now that the fan exhaust of its modern machines bypasses the armature and brushes and the HEPA for exhaust air has also been adopted, I think Rainbow gives less thought about dust build-up on the fans as it feels the delivery of clean air has been thoroughly achieved.


Post# 174867 , Reply# 98   3/25/2012 at 23:34 (2,928 days old) by sanifan ()        
Dust on outside...

Could it be possible that the dust on the outside of your vacuum is dust kicked into the air from your vac's exhaust (blowing it off of the floor or a dusty table, for example), and then sticking onto your vac due to static electricity? Just a thought.

Post# 174871 , Reply# 99   3/26/2012 at 01:08 (2,928 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

sanifan

 

I also thought of that, I have a customer /friend who uses dc07 dysons in his dry carpet cleaning business. Due top the dust spinning around in the container it can create some static and cause some brands of  powder that is airborn to cling to the outside of the container.

 

Earlier sebo's the brown ones built up static on there cleaner heads so when you did dry carpetcleaning  the entire head would be covered in powered


Post# 174877 , Reply# 100   3/26/2012 at 01:47 (2,928 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

I think that to finish this thread with a modicum of research is, no domestic vacuum cleaner is "True HEPA" (and that term is actually used on some brands, which is actually a very vague term), looking up the specifications for HEPA filtration, you find that there are several different grades of official HEPA filtration, and the original specification was to trap airborne radioactive contaminants in the 1940s...

Even this simple Wikipedia page shows enough information about HEPA specifications (check out the References and External Links for full details):



CLICK HERE TO GO TO twocvbloke's LINK


Post# 174893 , Reply# 101   3/26/2012 at 11:09 (2,927 days old) by Trebor ()        
Interesting...

twocvbloke...your link showed EIGHT levels of HEPA filtration, mine showed FIVE.

The truth of the matter is that 95% or better filtration efficiency or better at 2.5 microns is going to be sufficient for the vast majority of allergy sufferers. A human hair is 100 microns or larger. Mold and pollen start at 1/40 that size. Every time an air handling system kicks on, a door or window is opened, or one ventures outside, more particles are encountered than can be filtered by a vacuum cleaner. A vacuum cleaner is not an air filter. It moves limited volumes of air at high velocity for the purpose of dirt removal, totally different from moving huge volumes of air at low velocity for filtration. No one has yet tried to market a true air purifier with attachments as a vacuum cleaner, (or home sanitation system) so why the reverse? Because people do not stop to think about what they are being told.

A 15 x 20 room with an 8 foot ceiling contains 2400 cubic feet of air. At a rate of 80 cu ft/min, it will take any device 30 min to process all the air in the room, provided all the air is processed, and processed only once. In reality, that does not happen. The air under the couch is likely not moved much from its place behind the fabric skirting. That air likely contains some of the highest concentrations of dust and allergens anywhere in the house. The air sliding down the wall and drifting under the couch drops particles and they cling to the carpet and the underside of the couch.

A high-filtration vacuum can be of great benefit to allergy sufferers, but the benefit comes from a thorough 'corrective' cleaning. while not spewing a ton of allergens and pollutants out the exhaust. An air purifier can help, too, but it cannot cleanse the environment of the buildup of allergenic debris.

HEPA has been used as a marketing ploy. Once filtration is 95% effective down to 2.5 microns, only the most severely allergic can tell the difference between that level of filtration and true HEPA.




This post was last edited 03/26/2012 at 13:32
Post# 174909 , Reply# 102   3/26/2012 at 13:51 (2,927 days old) by blakaeg (NW London, UK)        

Gsheen,

I am impressed everytime with Dysons warranty and they make no fuss with sending out parts.

Their latest machines are very durable, seems they have rectified issues with the previous ones. My Dyson DC24 is 2 years old and has been great. Its wand broke and would not stay in. Called Dyson and they sent out a replacement straight away. There are no extra costs with filters or bags.

SEBO Fan,

The Sebo Felix is the only one I like out of the whole Sebo range but it has always been very good on the carpet and the suction seems to stay constant. Have you ever seen the HEPA box for the X range? The bags are 4 layer instead of 3 but it seems Sebo favours their S Class filtration over the HEPA which is why the HEPA box isn't available to buy online.


Post# 174912 , Reply# 103   3/26/2012 at 15:25 (2,927 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Blakaeg

 

I am trully impressed with the new range of dysons. I own the company that is responsible for carrying out all the guarantee and authorised service center for SA. I am a consulting engineer fro the company that holds the license to sell dysons here. as such I get my hands on all the new models long before they are launched here to make check whether they will suit our market. I am so impressed with the dc37 /39 animal. I am not a cylinder person but am really impressed with this unit. They took a dc23 and fixed all the flaws and made it better. 

 

The new dc40/42 is much easier to use than a dc25 . and the dc35 is my favorite handheld/stick vacuum.

 

As for the felix Its really nice to see sebo actually bring out a new model, ( there engineering department must be a very boring place to work with a new model every 15 years kind of like Porsche  ) Its the best Sebo I have ever used and far better than anything else they offer. Its proving very popular with the hotels too now if they would just get there pricing right in SA  


Post# 174975 , Reply# 104   3/27/2012 at 06:03 (2,926 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen et al

You seem to think that Sebo are a mass company who produce everything like Miele, Bosch and loads of others.

As you will know, Sebo are a private company and only produce vacuum cleaners and their associated cleaning products and accessories. No wonder it takes a long time to get a model to market and I think in most ways, their X series and likewise commercial uprights have kept them in business, worldwide along with the cleaning company models like Jeyes, Windsor and Ensign who have used all of Sebo's uprights. I think at one point Windsor also had a Felix based "Axxcess" model which has either retired or only available as an exclusive from some U.S sellers. I don't think the Felix would have been such a success without the canister/cylinder range components behind it.

Sebo however are in a lucky position - I guess, along with Vorwerk who produce "only" vacuums. To be able to remain privately owned and only producing one type of product that is built to a fantastic standard with excellent reliability.

Blakaeg - the synthetic dust bags for the X series are not available to buy because they are proving to be expensive to sell. No reason for Sebo's preference to S-Class filtration - just a matter of cost - and on the basis that the normal paper bags sell in either 7 or 10, Sebo worked out they'd sell 4 or 5 for the same cost price and I don't think Sebo won't to muscle in on Miele territory selling 4 bags are comparative prices - Sebo has always been cheaper where their dust bags are concerned - in the UK at least - and to the best of my consumer knowledge.


Post# 174980 , Reply# 105   3/27/2012 at 07:49 (2,926 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Windsor "Felix"

blackheart's profile picture
When i was doing facilities work in the work-study program we had rebadged Felixs called the Flexamatic i preferred the versamatics though

Post# 174981 , Reply# 106   3/27/2012 at 07:53 (2,926 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Sebo fan

 

i know allot about sebo I used to work for them. I prefer compny's like sebo, vorwerk, Kirby, rainbow, dyson , who's mainly make vacuum cleaners. It means they are consentrating on just that. The problem I had with sebo's was that because there model design was so old they could easily be out cleaned by a vacuum costing half there price but with the felix they cought up.

 

the best cleaning clean air vacuums will always be a canister with a pn however they are awkward to use. the next best thing is to use a upright that is designed with the suction power of a canister and the pn.  

 

 


Post# 174983 , Reply# 107   3/27/2012 at 09:17 (2,926 days old) by blakaeg (NW London, UK)        

Sebo Fan

The HEPA box doesn't have Synthetic bags. They called them 'Ultra Bags' but the material isn't like the bags on the Felix, D and K machines. Sebo UK have them available.


Post# 174986 , Reply# 108   3/27/2012 at 09:43 (2,926 days old) by sanifan ()        
Felix...

One thing about the Felix that surprised me was it's mild and gentle manner. It's so easy to push and steer and so mild mannered and quiet, I was assuming it could not be cleaning that well. It's actually quite good and everyone seems to agree that it does a fantastic job.

Speaking of the filtration, does everyone change the wrap around filter as often as Sebo recommends? They are quite pricey.


Post# 175004 , Reply# 109   3/27/2012 at 12:19 (2,926 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
blakaeg - if you could supply a photo of these bags, then I'd know what you're referring to - I've a feeling the HEPA bag may be white paper based, like the older K series dust bags? I have a sample synthetic bag to which I'm referring to - same material as the newer electret filtrete on the K, D and Felix models - sorry for the confusion.

When it comes to general cleaning with my Felix, I don't tend to raise the power. I find it picks up with just the low setting. The PN makes all the difference. I've tried my deluxe kombi tool with the Felix, still swerves around corners, but it can be an effort to push.

I've only ever replaced my Felix wrap around once since I got mine 5 yrs ago. A lot of owners I know just don't bother replacing them - they do seem to last a rather long time.


Post# 175005 , Reply# 110   3/27/2012 at 12:23 (2,926 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen - they're not concentrating on anything other than vacuums - Sebo was set up by two engineers to produce a better vacuum cleaner for the commercial market.

I had forgotten about the "Flexamatic" model name. My cousin in NYC was impressed with the Felix when she visited me and I had recommended the Felix at a time when Sebo U.S didn't have them yet. She went around looking for the Axxcess and finally got one. Slightly different by colour and she found one with a variable suction slider on the handle, so she's very happy with it.


Post# 175006 , Reply# 111   3/27/2012 at 12:47 (2,926 days old) by joshdonnell ()        
Miele

My miele bags never leaked. Idk what yall pick up in them but mines hasnt done that

Post# 175010 , Reply# 112   3/27/2012 at 13:22 (2,926 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Sebo fan 

sebo makes  carpetcleaners & carpetcleaning chemicals. Eureka only makes vacuum cleaners too you know 


Post# 175034 , Reply# 113   3/27/2012 at 17:16 (2,926 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
gsheen

If you had referred to my previous post, I did note that Sebo make "associated cleaning products and accessories," and I take it you're referring to Sebo Duo P powder, the DuoP machine and the new polisher head for the Felix/Dart? Anything else with a Sebo name on it (some sellers worldwide have a round tub canister that has been licensed TO Sebo for selling alongside their main ranges of commercial uprights.)

Also, Eureka are no longer a proper brand - they are owned by Electrolux - therefore the home company spin out other appliances as do AEG in the UK, Zanussi (who never before had vacuums until Electrolux started to rebrand old models.)

John Lewis appliances are also sold "mostly" from Electrolux bar their floorcare with a few exceptions - the last John Lewis upright vacuum was based on the Electrolux Highlight bagged upright, and their cylinder/canister based on a Bosch vacuum.


Post# 175042 , Reply# 114   3/27/2012 at 17:53 (2,926 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        
True HEPA filtration

TriStar/Compact (w/HEPA motor filter)
Filter Queen

Or U can go for a Vacuflo or central vac

Don't go for a Dyson! :P I wouldn't touch another one ever again; that's why I no longer own the dc23s, although the dc23 TurbineHead is the best Dyson vac.


Post# 175649 , Reply# 115   4/3/2012 at 06:12 (2,919 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Have a look at this video I just found. It's quite old but shows a Dyson versus our 3 in 1 British Numatic George (brother of Henry) with an air driven turbo brush. I'd have thought the Dyson would have won - but the crucial point is that as the poster does point out, the airo brush leaves a darker side of carpet to the Dyson's. It's a good video on the basis that the bagless upright is going against a bagged machine, canister no less with an air driven turbo brush that most people discount on its use.

Compared to Dyson, Numatic's machines have excellent sealed suction. This is due to the canister's design as well as the rubberised end on the dust channel and the bags themselves.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK





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