Thread Number: 15310
HOOVER Ranger Broken Down...
[Down to Last]

Vacuumland's exclusive eBay Watch:
scroll >>> for more items --- [As an eBay Partner, eBay may compensate vacuumland.org if you make a purchase using any link to eBay on this page]
Post# 162664   12/19/2011 at 06:19 (4,447 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Less than a week to Christmas, and what festive cheer is my HOOVER Senior Ranger bringing me ? A break down! :(

Today I took the Ranger out to vacuum the house, and after only 15 seconds of cleaning it turned off, then turned back on again. I thought it was probably a loose connection on the cord, and decided I'd continue cleaning the house and check it out later.

Well when I got started on the next room it did it again, but didn't turn back on this time, no matter how much I rattled the cord around.

I turned it off at the plug, and when I turned it back on again, it worked, then cut out and wouldn't go back on again (although it probably would have if I turned the plug off and on like I did before).

I decided to leave it and use the Turbopower to finish up, and now I need your help.

The only thing I've noticed that may be of any help is that the little cord "holder" on the handle is allowing the cord to slide through it rather than holding it firmly as it was before.

34 years of flawless service and it dies just before Christmas...


Post# 162673 , Reply# 1   12/19/2011 at 08:05 (4,447 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London)        
Its not dead yet!

vacbear58's profile picture
Sounds to me like the cord has broken down, somehwere around the upper cable guide like you suggest. Is it the original cable, for I remember when I used one of these as my daily driver I had to replace the flex too - and not when it was that old either.

The good news is that it is a very easy repair, just cut the flex (do make sure it is unplugged of course) a little beyond the point of the cable guide (on the "good" side of course) and reconnect to the cleaner. Hopefully the overall flex should not be too short, but it is easily replaced - the original cable was white anyway.

For North American members - the flex and switching arrangements in the Uk are different - the flex goes down the outside of the handle to a footswitch - it was done that way from model 612 (1950) onwards

Al


Post# 162674 , Reply# 2   12/19/2011 at 08:17 (4,447 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
So basically I should cut it at a bit below the guide and a bit above the guide, then attach both bits together ?

How would I attach them together ? Soldering ?


Post# 162678 , Reply# 3   12/19/2011 at 09:43 (4,447 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London)        
No!

vacbear58's profile picture
Having cut the flex, remove the remaining flex from the cleaner and re-attach the "good" length of cable to the cleaner. If you are not sure about re-newing the connection on the cleaner (its really easy as I remember it) you could use a cable connector - one with cord grips on either side - NOT block connectors

Al


Post# 162687 , Reply# 4   12/19/2011 at 12:18 (4,447 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

I would check all the obvious stuff first before doing anything dramatic like the plug etc

Post# 162689 , Reply# 5   12/19/2011 at 13:09 (4,447 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I doubt it is the plug, but I'll check tomorrow.

Trust me, I'm praying it is a loose wire in the plug, but I'm not expecting that!


Post# 162730 , Reply# 6   12/19/2011 at 21:30 (4,446 days old) by broomvac (N/A)        

broomvac's profile picture
A completely new cord couldn't hurt either.

Post# 162753 , Reply# 7   12/20/2011 at 06:32 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I've decided if I do find it is a problem with the cable, I'll just replace it all.

Would this be the correct cable for it ?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO jmurray01's LINK on eBay


Post# 162773 , Reply# 8   12/20/2011 at 10:50 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
YES!! Guess what!?

Half an hour ago I decided to check the plug of the '77 Ranger, and this is what I found:


Post# 162778 , Reply# 9   12/20/2011 at 10:54 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Cant make anything out mate its all blurry?

Post# 162781 , Reply# 10   12/20/2011 at 10:57 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I don't know if you can see it in the picture, but there were only about three strands of wire from the brown lead actually in contact with the plug.

I pushed the lead in further so that all the cable was connecting with the plug, put the cover back on, plugged it in, and with trepidation pressed the power button on the cleaner...

And she roared into life sounding even better than before!

And also, the "Hedlite" was even brighter than before, LEADing (pun intended) me to believe that the brown cable had been loose for a while, creating a lack of power making the light dimmer and the motor not to run as well.

I'm so chuffed that my HOOVER is back in business! :)

Oh, and before I go, here is a picture of something amazing - The original 13 Amp "NETTLE" fuse from 1977! I thought it would have been replaced some time down the line, but it seems not. I did think the screws on the plug looked like they'd never been turned before, and that must be why!



Post# 162782 , Reply# 11   12/20/2011 at 10:58 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Oh, and just out of curiosity, what part of Scotland are you from juniorsenior ?

Post# 162787 , Reply# 12   12/20/2011 at 11:19 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Well thats good its running and thats why i said check the plug before doing anything dramatic, because sometimes it is something daft.
I am from Glasgow what about you?


Post# 162788 , Reply# 13   12/20/2011 at 11:23 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Well thank goodness I took your advise and didn't start replacing the whole flex to find it was just the plug connection!

I'm from Buckie, roughly in between Inverness and Aberdeen, on the Moray coast.

What cleaners do you have in your collection ?


Post# 162790 , Reply# 14   12/20/2011 at 11:32 (4,446 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

I hope you replaced that fuse with a 3 Amp fuse (Approx. 700w max, more than enough for the rating of that Hoover model), sticking another 13 Amp in there could lead to a fire (or worse) if the motor failed out and the fuse did not blow... :\

Oh, and I'd recommend looking in your camera's settings (and instructions) for a Macro mode, it's great for getting clear close-up shots... :P


Post# 162792 , Reply# 15   12/20/2011 at 11:33 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

I have a 1976 Senior 6525E which is our everyday vac and a 1969 652A which i use for research and fiddling about with to see how everything works, and 2 Juniors a 1974 1354A and a 1973 1346A which i gave to the cleaner in my work today.

Post# 162794 , Reply# 16   12/20/2011 at 11:35 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
So you're telling me that the 13 Amp fuse that HOOVER themselves put in is the wrong one!?

Also, the original plug itself says a 13 Amp fuse should be fitted, and all my other cleaners have 13 Amp fuses too (including my 500 Watt Electrolux).


Post# 162795 , Reply# 17   12/20/2011 at 11:37 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Oh, and I didn't put another 13 Amp fuse in, I just put the original back seeing as it hadn't blown.

Post# 162796 , Reply# 18   12/20/2011 at 11:47 (4,446 days old) by jakesvacs ()        

Very lucky!
~I have got to do my own version of retrobrite on my senior, change cord and the cord hooks. I never seam to get ones like you!
Anyone know how to change the cord hooks. I have the 2 on my junior handle but dont know how to take them off and put them on?


Post# 162797 , Reply# 19   12/20/2011 at 11:51 (4,446 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

Well, I doubt that Hover will have fitted the plug, as back in those days, appliances generally came without a plug, and either the retail shop it was bought from, or the customer themselves fit a plug, and some people didn't (and still don't) quite understand the meaning of fuse ratings...

A 13 Amp fuse is for devices that use up to 3 Kilowatts, and I don't think your 600 Watt Ranger uses that much power, if your motor shorted out, then your cable will heat up pretty fast, catch fire, burn you, your carpet, the vac itself and maybe even your entire house before the fuse blew, if it blew at all, this is the reason why you NEED to fit a 3 Amp fuse, they're designed with different ratings for a damned good reason, regardless of whether some low-IQ person in the 70's fitted it, it's for your safety, if you don't, well, I hope you have Home and Life insurance........

Just because a plug says it can have a 13 Amp fuse fitted doesn't mean it HAS to have one fitted, be smart and fit a 3 Amp Fuse...


Post# 162799 , Reply# 20   12/20/2011 at 11:54 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Yes, lucky indeed!

I could be wrong, but if the hooks don't have any visible screws, perhaps they just pull or twist off ?

I was going to post this as another thread, but I guess I'll ask it here:

What do you guys use to polish the plastic on your Vacuum Cleaners ?


Post# 162800 , Reply# 21   12/20/2011 at 11:57 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
OK, you've convinced me, I'll buy two 3 Amp fuses for my HOOVER and Electrolux (all the others are above 700W) as soon as I can and get them fitted.

Post# 162801 , Reply# 22   12/20/2011 at 12:04 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

All my machines have 13amp fuses and the only one with an origonal plug is my 1354A which has a Manweb plug on where it was purchased many years ago but not by me.

Post# 162802 , Reply# 23   12/20/2011 at 12:06 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I guess you'd better replace your fuses too then.

Must be a common mistake by the first owners/retailers putting 13 Amp fuses on when it should have been 3 Amp fuses.


Post# 162803 , Reply# 24   12/20/2011 at 12:10 (4,446 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

For the others above 700w, use a 5 Amp fuse (good for up to 1200 Watts), and yes, I spelled Hoover wrong...

Sorry to be so brash about it, but, I'm very cautious when it comes to electrical safety, and there's just not enough education about even the simplest things like fuses in plugs, why they're there, and what the ratings mean...

3 Amp - Up to 700 Watts
5 Amp - Up to 1200 Watts
10 Amp - Up to 2400 Watts (not a common fuse though)
13 Amp - Up to 3000 Watts

Note it down somewhere...


Post# 162804 , Reply# 25   12/20/2011 at 12:14 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
So I should replace all the other 13 Amp fuses in my other cleaners too ? Even though they have moulded plugs which WERE made by the manufacturers who fitted them with 13 Amp ones ?

Post# 162806 , Reply# 26   12/20/2011 at 12:20 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Well i aint replacing them they have been there for years without a problem.


Post# 162807 , Reply# 27   12/20/2011 at 12:22 (4,446 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

In simple terms, yes, I never trust ANY moulded plug with a factory-fitted fuse, I always fit my own (I do keep a stock of the ones I remove though), I'd rather have my wiring properly protected than rely on anything from a factory, especially so if the appliance originated in China...

Post# 162808 , Reply# 28   12/20/2011 at 12:31 (4,446 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"Well i aint replacing them they have been there for yea

Well, if you use a 3 KILOWATT fuse in a 250 Watt vacuum's plug, it ain't going to blow if there's a fault, and if it doesn't blow, you get a lot of heat in the cable, like the heating element in an electric fire, and with heat on plastic, you get fire, and when you get fire, well, suffice to say, I'm sure you've seen plenty of reports on TV about people dying in house fires due to electrical faults...

You're choice, fit the right fuse and be safe, or stick with the 13 Amp fuse and risk losing your, or someone else's life...


Post# 162810 , Reply# 29   12/20/2011 at 12:43 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

Ok i checked my Hoover instruction manual and it says connect to a 13amp plug fused at 3amp so Twocybloke you were right enough and i will change my fuses. i think the cunfusion is with the plug if it does say 13amp on it doesnt mean that you have to put a 13amp fuse in it as was said earlier.
Anyway its good to learn something new everyday


Post# 162811 , Reply# 30   12/20/2011 at 12:48 (4,446 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

The plugs are rated as being suitable for Up-to 13 Amps, that's where a lot of people make the incorrect assumption that you must fit a 13 Amp fuse, hence why I said there's a lack of education about the simple fuse ratings and what they can supply up to before blowing...

Post# 162817 , Reply# 31   12/20/2011 at 12:56 (4,446 days old) by juniorsenior ()        

You are right
well i dont have any 3 so i put in a 5 for now.


Post# 162821 , Reply# 32   12/20/2011 at 13:08 (4,446 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Well I checked my Electrolux and to my surprise it has a 3 Amp fuse in it! I could swear I saw a 13 Amp one when I last had the plug open... Must be my memory failing!

As for the Ranger, I went up 5 minutes ago and fitted an old 3 Amp fuse I found in my cupboard, so hopefully it hasn't already blown. I'll find out next time I go to use it, but providing it hasn't blown, all is electrically safe there!

As for the other cleaners with 13 Amp fuses fitted, I'm going to leave them as they are, as I read on a couple of sites that the standard rule of thumb is 3 Amp for under 700W and 13 Amp for over 700W.


Post# 162846 , Reply# 33   12/20/2011 at 14:24 (4,446 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield & London)        
Electrolux

vacbear58's profile picture
Whilst I agree with 2cvbloke in general, older Electrolux 90/100/310/330/345 models actually do need a 13amp fuse - they will blow a 3 amp. Dont ask me why, it may have to do with a surge on startup. Some later versions lower range models (80 for example which started at 400W but ended up at 550W) which had uprated motors may also be the same

Post# 162917 , Reply# 34   12/20/2011 at 21:50 (4,445 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

Yeesh, "It should be fitted with a 13 Amp fuse", talk about a serious design flaw, it's probably a good thing I don't really like older euro-design Electrolux vacs, even my 600w Electrolux Sanitaire ZC-880 and Electrolux C12 are both fine with a 3 Amp fuse in the plug.... :S

Might aswell just stick a Million Amp Drillbit fuse in there for all the good it'd do in the event of a fault...


Post# 162966 , Reply# 35   12/21/2011 at 05:29 (4,445 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I knew I was unlucky, but not this unlucky!

After only vacuuming half of my bedroom an hour ago, I heard a "bang" and heard the dreaded high pitched noise that comes from a motor spinning freely!

Needless to say I took the belt cover off to find it snapped in half.

One problem after another!

I've ordered a pack of two new belts from eBay, so when they arrive I'll be back in business.

But man, how unlucky... The belt was only about a month old too!


Post# 163248 , Reply# 36   12/24/2011 at 10:54 (4,442 days old) by hooverbaby (Dalton in Furness, UK)        
Re: Fuses..

hooverbaby's profile picture
What you need to bear in mind when fitting fuses on vacuums is that the motor can draw a high initial current on start up, so the 3 amp fuse may not be suitable. This is especially the case if you use the attachments on the senior, which boosts the motor power.

Hoover used to recommend a 5 amp fuse on the Hoover Junior 1354 for this reason (current surge). I would not be inclined to use a 3 amp fuse on the Senior, since it is likely to blow if used on tools. This happened to me at Al's with Seamus's Hoover Convertible, albeit a 110 volt imported machine. I only had a 5 amp fuse in the transformer and it took it out when powered up on tools. To be honest I'm not sure if the wattage on this compared with the UK 240 volt model; the current draw may be a bit higher?

In many cases 13 amp fuse are fitted since 3 and 13 amp are the common sizes in the UK. I know what you mean about protection..but remember that you are protecting the cable, more so than the appliance. eg if you used a table light flex on a fire with a 13 amp fuse then the cable would set on fire. This is not likely to be a problem on your ranger, since a dead short on the cable or machine will take the fuse out. Just make sure that you use a suitable 2 core cable. 0.75mm 2 core is more than adequate for up to 6 amps. I would expect the Senior to take roughly 1.7 amps under no load when set up without tools (400 watts), approx 400/230 and 2.6 amps with tools. However, it could be 2 or 3 times this amount when switched on!


Stephen


Post# 163251 , Reply# 37   12/24/2011 at 11:32 (4,442 days old) by hooverbaby (Dalton in Furness, UK)        
I have just checked..

hooverbaby's profile picture
the recommended rating for the 6525C Senior and it is 13 Amp..so DO NOT use a 3 amp fuse on the U4002/4014 Ranger; it is NOT suitable, due to high start-up current!

The standard motor fitted will not draw more than between about 1.7 and 2.6 amps under normal running conditions but it will briefly be somewhat more than this on start-up. However, if a 6 amp cable is fitted this is more than adequate to cope with the load, unlike a 3 Kilowatt fire with a 3 amp cable and 13 amp fuse, which will draw more than 12 amps under normal running and set the cable on fire.

Whilst wishing to guard against the possiblity of more current being drawn in the event of a short circuit fault, what usually happens is that there is a dead short, the current drawn is much greater than the value of the fuse..but only for a short duration and this will take it out whether 3 or 13 amp regardless of motor power.

Stephen


Post# 163253 , Reply# 38   12/24/2011 at 11:56 (4,442 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

I use 3 Amp fuses in my two Juniors, neither one has popped, and the Senior 652A I had I put a 3 Amp fuse in the plug and it never popped, I think the documentation recommending the higher rating fuses is long out of date, heck, even a fully qualified electrical engineer I know states that using those higher ratings on such small motors is completely wrong, and I'd rather defer to their knowledge than "what Hoover recommends"...

Post# 163268 , Reply# 39   12/24/2011 at 15:51 (4,442 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Well, I put that 3 Amp fuse in the Senior as I said, and it blew on start up!

Looks like Stephen was right.

I've put the 13 Amp fuse back in now.


Post# 163276 , Reply# 40   12/24/2011 at 17:55 (4,442 days old) by hooverbaby (Dalton in Furness, UK)        
There you go!..or should I say, there you blow...

hooverbaby's profile picture
Of Course, there is no harm in trying the lower rating of fuse but I doubt you will get away with it for long.

I might happen to mention that I do have 17th Edition Regs and also used to run a vac shop for 10 years. Sometimes, machines came in that didn't work with a fuse rating that was unsuitable. The only machine I can remember having a 3 amp fuse fitted as standard wasn't a vacuum but the relatively low powered Qualcast Concorde Lawnmower. Some of these only had a 280 watt motor and seemed to work ok with this fuse.

You also need to try moving the 2 speed switch where the tools fit in to see whether boosting the power blows the smaller fuse. You don't need the convertor to do this, just something to activate the lever. Try holding it in before pressing the power switch, again when it's running. I expect it's more likely to go at start up.

Stephen


Post# 163588 , Reply# 41   12/28/2011 at 09:28 (4,438 days old) by 74simon ()        

I'd personally say a 3a fuse is inadequate for a two speed Senior, as the maximum wattage of the motor at 650 watts may cause the inrush current to be higher than the 720 watts a 3a fuse can take. But it is good practice to keep the fuse as low rated as possible. I run my Seniors on a 5a fuse - which I understand weren't in general use when the machine was current, with only 3 and 13 amp fuses in general use.

Many years back I was using a Dirtsearcher Junior, which suddenly cut out. I changed the fuse, but to a 13 amp one. Carried on cleaning, until there was a big BANG!, a few sparks flew out of the lamp cover and the electrics tripped. Turned out that there was a short in the lamp housing. The smaller fuse blew so fast it was like turning the machine off, the larger one caused drama! As Stephen says, in the event of a short, the fault will draw way more than 13 amps, blowing the fuse quickly anyway.

One thing this thread shows is that it's always a good idea to check the inside of a plug on old things if it wasn't moulded onto the cable. I work in PAT testing, and at least a fifth of items I inspect with plugs fitted by the consumer have some sort of fault. Wrong fuse, loose terminals, missing earth, I've seen enough to make me very cautious!

Jamie, your Senior was a fire risk if only a couple of stands of wire were connected to the live terminal of the plug. If, say, three quarters of the strands aren't connected it means that the connected ones are carrying four times the current they were meant to. This causes resistance, which in turn generates heat. The picture below was a plug powering an extension lead that I came across on a job. The live terminal was loose rather than missing connected strands, but it had a similar effect of generating resistance and heat - you can see the scorching round the terminal where it got hot!

Simon


Post# 163590 , Reply# 42   12/28/2011 at 09:42 (4,438 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
Whoa... Thank God I noticed it then!

I always check my plugs every couple of months to make sure the wires are all securely fitted and nothing is amiss, but I didn't check the Ranger's plug as I'd just bought it. I should have though.


Post# 165202 , Reply# 43   1/8/2012 at 18:24 (4,427 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

What an interesting debate! Though i note the comments about a fire and all that go with it, I never did hear of such a thing from a vacuum cleaner. It is one of those things which could happen, but probably never did.

That said...I would always put 5 amp fuses in the cleaners I was repairing, sometimes a 3 amp if I could be sure it would handle it. As a rule, I found that Electrolux motors up to 550 watts would be fine on a 3 amp. The Hoover turbopower always used to say a 3 amp and I am sure the Turbomaster ran quite happily on such a fuse too. Electrolux always said 5 amp back in the day, but this changed around about the time the 100 was built. As per the instructions scanned here.

However all this talk of fuses passed the manufacturers by and most have always reccomended 13amp in any vacuum cleaner. What I find most in appropriate now is that for several years many new small appliances have beem fitted with 0.50mm flex and still have 13amp fuses. Things like hair curlers and tin openers. It is almost as though the fuse has no role to play in the current wiring. I suppose to some extent it hasn't now that so many buildings have RCD's. But then, so many don't.



Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      



Comes to the Rescue!

Woops, Time to Check the Bag!!!
Either you need to change your vacuum bag or you forgot to LOG-IN?

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.



                     


automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy