Thread Number: 661
This is to all Oreck fans... 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 6458   12/25/2006 at 18:56 (6,331 days old) by sukething ()        

Merry Christmas to all. I just got back from my family and found out that my cousin bought his parents a gift certificate for an Oreck. Yes, they forgot how much I know about vacuums (Bless their hearts) So now I suggested that I would cantact you all and ask which model would suit them best. They have hardwood floors and rugs and carpeting. In a previous thread someone had mentioned the Oreck XL=21, is this the best one? Is it better for them to buy it from Oreck or to buy it at a store? She wanted to make sure the it still weights the 8 lbs or so, does the 21 weight the same? I would appreciate the advise...

Thank you,
David

Post# 6460 , Reply# 1   12/25/2006 at 19:31 (6,331 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Oreck XL21
Buy it from a Oreck store.

Post# 6461 , Reply# 2   12/25/2006 at 19:33 (6,331 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Riccar Supralite/Simplicity Freedom
Do you remember the VacWeb forum? I used to post on there before it closed down.

Post# 6470 , Reply# 3   12/25/2006 at 23:43 (6,331 days old) by swingette ()        

the XL21 has a bigger impeller, which i hope equals more airflow. more airflow is what the original models needed. the oreck store now sells two-motor commercial uprights, but not 8lb ones. if it HAS to be 8lbs and HAS to be an Oreck, get the xl-21.

Post# 6476 , Reply# 4   12/26/2006 at 07:39 (6,331 days old) by vacuumboy95 ()        

you should get the oreck 21.

Post# 6513 , Reply# 5   12/26/2006 at 19:03 (6,330 days old) by dualsanitronic (Omaha)        
The heavyweight lightweight

 the XL21 is far and away the very BEST Oreck ever made,I promise you that, with up to 76% deeper carpet cleaning,over 50% more airflow due to a 33% larger fan and a much stiffer roller brush.It is much quieter than the other Orecks,has a 21 year warranty with 21 free annual tune ups and a Buster B with over 50% greater performance.There are many advancements not available on the other Orecks.Give it the 30 day test.

Post# 6527 , Reply# 6   12/26/2006 at 21:38 (6,330 days old) by sukething ()        
Thank you all....

 Thank you all for your advise I will give them this advise.

David, do you think I should tell them to buy it at a store or from the company?

David

Post# 6542 , Reply# 7   12/27/2006 at 00:30 (6,330 days old) by dualsanitronic (Omaha)        

At a store

Post# 6543 , Reply# 8   12/27/2006 at 00:32 (6,330 days old) by compactc9 ()        

Depending on where they live, I can suggest a store. If they live here in Denver tell them to go to Anderson's Vacuum. And tell them to say I sent them there. ;)

Post# 6558 , Reply# 9   12/27/2006 at 08:52 (6,330 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

The XL-21 is phenomenal! Be sure, however, the dealer gives you the BB-1100 at the $749.99 price point. Some licensees try to give you the lesser Buster B-870 AD and upgrade you to the 1100 for $50.00 more.

Post# 6615 , Reply# 10   12/28/2006 at 01:58 (6,329 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

WOW!! $749 for an Oreck-that is DEFINIELY overpriced!for that much money there are better vacuums out there!You could buy 3 Riccar Superlites!!Like the Riccar better.

Post# 6643 , Reply# 11   12/28/2006 at 14:42 (6,328 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Does the Riccar come with a 21 year warranty, and free annual service for 21 years? Have you test driven the Oreck XL-21? How long has Riccar been in business? What is the warranty on their machine?

Post# 6653 , Reply# 12   12/28/2006 at 16:51 (6,328 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Consumer Reports:
Oreck XL21
very good in carpet cleaning
excellent in bare floor cleaning
poor in suction
fair in noise
excellent in emissions
Riccar Supralite/Simplicity Freedom
very good in carpet cleaning
excellent in bare floor cleaning
fair in suction
fair in noise
excellent in emissions

Post# 6654 , Reply# 13   12/28/2006 at 16:54 (6,328 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

You can't beat the 21 year warranty and 21 years of free tuneups on the Oreck XL21!
That is an excellent deal!

Post# 6659 , Reply# 14   12/28/2006 at 18:03 (6,328 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Consumer Reports:
Oreck XL upright
good in carpet cleaning
excellent in bare floor cleaning
poor in suction
fair in noise
excellent in emissions

Post# 6663 , Reply# 15   12/28/2006 at 18:47 (6,328 days old) by luxboy ()        
Anyone...

 whos pays $700 seriously needs to have a mental health checkup.. lol. I was at Toms store yesterday and a lady brought in an Oreck XL21 that was less than a year old to be repaired. In fact, she said it was the second time in less than a year that it needed to be repaired. The tiny little bearing in the brushroll failed for the second time in a year and it smoked the belt and ruined the brushroll. Since neither the belt or the brushroll are under warranty, she paid $70 to have the Oreck repaired not once, but TWO times in less than one year. Tom calls that little 3.5 motor the "little motor that can't" I can't imagine that anyone would waste their money on one of these. Geez.. for $749 you could have a Miele, or many other quality two motor systems.

Derreck

Post# 6666 , Reply# 16   12/28/2006 at 19:53 (6,328 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Yes, you're right, you could pay $749. for a Miele, and pay two or three times what you would in parts for another make of vacuum. If the vacuum is less than a year old, and the lady needed a roller brush replaced, that item WOULD have been under warranty had she brought it to an Oreck dealership. Oreck warrantees roller brushes for 1 year. Had she brought it into our store, and the roller brush were out of warranty, the repair would have been $40.00. Bottom line - Tom likes Dysons, he hates Oreck because he is not licensed to sell Oreck. Why would anyone want a gas-guzzling 12 amp motor, when a 3.5 amp motor will do the same job? And as for consumer reports - like I tell my customers - "If Consumer Reports were to tell you to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you do it?" CR is for sheeple who can't make up their own mind and need to be TOLD what brand to purchase. I put little stock in their weighted surveys. They need to put more emphasis on the quality and durability of the machines they are testing. I'd like to see another make of vacuum that has a 21-year warranty, and 21 free tune-ups.

Post# 6671 , Reply# 17   12/28/2006 at 20:14 (6,328 days old) by compactc9 ()        
Free annual tune-ups

 Or are they free? The reason for this rediculously high price is because you are actually paying for these "free" services at the time you buy it. The "free" BB 1100 is also built into the price. The Riccar costs less becuase they didn't add all these "free" items to go with it. My person preferrence is for the Riccar, I just really like the Riccar and Simplicity vacuums. The Oreck XL21 is also a good enough vacuum, and definately the best of all the Orecks, but just beware of what you might first see as "free".

Post# 6676 , Reply# 18   12/28/2006 at 20:38 (6,328 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Yes, but you still haven't answered my question. How long is the warranty on the Riccar? I'd like to see one still going 21 years from now. Rest assured, they'll be plenty of Orecks. Oh, and if the Riccar doesn't come with a Buster B, what do they give you to do the above-the-floor cleaning? The Riccar is sold by mom-and-pop vac shops who can't sell Orecks. It may be a good vacuum, but I'd like to see someone do a side by side comparison of the two, with durability being a heavy determinant.

Post# 6678 , Reply# 19   12/28/2006 at 20:46 (6,328 days old) by dial-a-matic ()        
Karl,

 The warranty on the r----- and the s--------- is TWO years. Even the xl-classic has a Three year warranty. I am not dissn t----- but I am saying the warranty is better on the o----.

-a-

Post# 6682 , Reply# 20   12/28/2006 at 21:14 (6,328 days old) by compactc9 ()        

The warranty on the Riccars are 2 years.

As for comparing the 2, I look at both cleaning and reliability. Some of the features for durability that the Riccar has that Oreck doesnt: a circuit breaker on th motor, thread guards on the brushroll, rubber treaded lexan wheels that roll on brass busings, and a larger, thicker fan (the Oreck's fan has hollow blades, honestly. The Riccars also can use Filtrete bags and you can change the belt without needing a screwdriver.

As for including a small handvac, this is entirely up to the dealer. They can choose to include the SupraQuick, or not. But with a full retail price of less than a comparable standard Oreck, you could buy both the top of the line RSL and upgrade to a larger small canister to get near the Oreck's price, and ou would still have a better canister with larger bags.

When I was working for a Riccar dealer, we traded in almost every Oreck that came in for service on a RSL, and people loved them. I have nothing against the Oreck, I just feel the Riccar version is better, and this is based on both customer's and my own personal experiance in selling and servicing both brands.

Post# 6697 , Reply# 21   12/28/2006 at 22:35 (6,328 days old) by luxboy ()        
Buying an Oreck

 I personally don't think anyone would be upset by not having the ability to sell Orecks. All of the vacuum shops that I know of (including me at Electrolux) get several Orecks traded in all of the time. These machines never even get sold as used unless someone comes in asking specifically for an Oreck, and even then most vac shops will talk the consumer into buying something better. An Oreck would be the perfect vacuum for an old lady living in an apartment, but for someone who is attempting to actually get their carpets clean, it just doesn't have the power to deep clean down deep into carpets where the sand and damaging particles lay. It will groom the carpets nicely and pick up surface dirt, but to deep clean, you need a "gas guzzler"

Derreck

Post# 6713 , Reply# 22   12/29/2006 at 00:15 (6,328 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

I disagree wholeheartedly. The roller brush on an Oreck turns at 6500 RPM's, three times faster than the roller in a conventional vacuum, which (combined with powerful suction) give it the ability to deep clean carpets like no other vacuum. "Gas Guzzler" vacuums with 12 amp motors don't necessarily clean better, they just generate more heat so the motors burn out in a relatively short period of time. Amperage has absolutely NOTHING to do with efficiency of a vacuum. It's merely a measure of how much electricity you are sucking out of the wall. Oreck's design has often been imitated, most recently by Riccar and Hoover, but I believe the Riccar will be a flash in the pan. Bison tried (unsuccessfully) to imitate the Kirby. It was similar in design, but ultimately Kirby won out, and Bison went into bankruptcy. Oreck has a proud 43 year history. How long has Riccar been in business???

Post# 6717 , Reply# 23   12/29/2006 at 01:13 (6,328 days old) by compactc9 ()        

Riccar has been in the sewing machine buisness since 1945. They started making vacuums in the 80s and were bought by tacony in the early 90s. Ever since Tacony bought them, they and Simplicity have been a growing company in the independant vcuum store buisness. They have a full line of high quality vacuums, not just the SupraLite. I seriously doubt that Tacony is going anywhere.

Post# 6719 , Reply# 24   12/29/2006 at 01:20 (6,328 days old) by swingette ()        

i have a standard regular oreck. the brush spins too fast, too fast and too little airflow. just enough airflow to pull the surface debris away. the oreck will actually grind dirt DEEPER into the carpet with its combination of mega-sweeping and inadequate airflow. the xl 21 is prolly better. the oreck currently resides at moms house. my brother loves it.

Post# 6722 , Reply# 25   12/29/2006 at 01:26 (6,328 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Oreck XL21 upright
4.0 amp motor
Oreck XL upright
4.0 amp motor
Riccar Supralite/Simplicity Freedom
5.5 amp motor

Post# 6723 , Reply# 26   12/29/2006 at 01:38 (6,328 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Honestly, I like the Riccar Supralite/Simplicity Freedom and Riccar Supraquik/Simplicity Sport much better than Oreck XL21/Oreck XL.

Post# 6725 , Reply# 27   12/29/2006 at 01:41 (6,328 days old) by convertible68 ()        
Derreck--

 Speaking of lightweights, I'm wondering...

Tom mentioned to me about an Electrolux lightweight upright that apparently is a much better performer than the Oreck (at least on carpets anyway) in addition to being less expensive. However, I've Googled around and can't find any information on it ANYWHERE. Does your branch carry these? I think he said they were $299 retail.

Post# 6728 , Reply# 28   12/29/2006 at 04:25 (6,328 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

WOW!-Oreck Vs Riccar.I have an Oreck-its not the XL21-I tried an XL21 and didn't notice much diffrence over then one I now have.I have 3 Orecks in my collection-two were free!One from a work collegue who didn't want it,and another as a trade in toward a TriStar.the Oreck is an interesting little vacuum-but really CANNOT compete with some of the "heavyweights"remember the Oreck was originally designed to clean low pile commercial carpets-this it does supurbly.When I try to use it on my deep pile carpets--that 6500RPM brush speed bogs down badly-the machine is REALLY struggling.In this instance Oreck should provide some sort of nozzle height adjust-then it should be better.When I try the Oreck on a bare floor-ANYTHING in its path goes--the high speed brush sort of even "polishes" the floor!It manages to get dust and stuff cleaning to the bare floor.Some others miss this fine dirt.Esp the "chalky" dirt that collects on bathroom floors.I imagine this must be soap-water residue,maybe mixed with some skin residue.I also like the circuit break in the Riccar-Oreck should provide a breaker in their machine-makes sense.If the Oreck should hit that unknown sock under the bed--imagine its motor is "toast" unless you are VERY quick on the stop switch.I do like the "plane" handle on the Orecks-holds much like the handle on a hand plane.You can exert force easily to push-pull the machine.I really wonder though-will either the Oreck or the Riccar "Superlite" last for 21yrs-I have my doubts.In both machines their small motors are working pretty hard to turn both their suction fans and beater bars.Bigger vacuums-the motors last longer since they aren't as under as much of a load.I would give it to the Orecks and Riccar-their smaller nozzles get into small places better.I could envision an office cleaning service using either if these machines to clean around and under office desks,etc.I am also a firm beliver of Tacony products--they give an excellent value for the money- more so than the Oreck.

Post# 6744 , Reply# 29   12/29/2006 at 07:50 (6,328 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

I can tell I'm hitting a brick wall here. Everyone seems hellbent on the Riccar. I, however will put my money on the originator, rather than the imitator every time. I think the Riccar SuperLite will be a flash in the pan, just like the Bissell ProLite/Kenmore E4. Why does the Oreck need a circuit breaker? If something gets stuck in the roller brush, the worst that will happen is the belt breaks. Most people know better than to suck up a sock. Usually, it's the cleaning ladies who do this. I'm sure the bulk majority of these XL-21's will be around 21 years from now. You'd be a fool to not take advantage of the warranty and free yearly service. My daily driver is an Oreck XL 100C from 1984 (22 years old - and still going strong!) The XL-21 is not your mother's Oreck, and should not be judged as such. It is in a class by itself.
You are incorrect in saying the vacuums with bigger motors last longer. They burn out quicker, because they generate more heat. If this were true, then why do I see practically new Dirt Devils, Sharks, Eurekas and Hoovers with 12 amp motors thrown out all the time? This is done intentionally, so the masses buy a new vacuum every six months or a year. People want lighter weight vacuums, not these big clunky bagless machines. I think if I had to choose an 8 pound vacuum that was not an Oreck, I would look at the new lightweight Hoover first.

Post# 6752 , Reply# 30   12/29/2006 at 11:06 (6,328 days old) by my-ellie ()        

I thought I might weigh in with my two-cents on the Oreck question. No brickbats, please. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. But here's the situation as I see it.

David Oreck was a marketing man who went, in the 1960's to Whirlpool, after Sears forced them to stop selling vacuums under the Whirlpool name, and bought the rights to Whirlpool's little 'broom vac' they were making for Sears, which became the first Oreck. It was nothing more than a power nozzle motor with a fan built into the pivot knuckle to throw the dirt it inhaled into a little bag attached at the front of the handle. I have the Sears ad for this very machine.


David Oreck is a very good 'marketing man', who tried innovative ways to sell his light weight broom vac. The first thing he had to do was to stop thinking of it as an electric broom, and start calling it a full sized vacuum cleaner. Over the course of the first few years, the Oreck was built in Germany, then by Bissell in America. The handle was made taller (the first Oreck's had short little squat, square handles). But it still retained it's initial design of a power nozzle motor with a belt on one end and a fan on the other. Just a minimum amount of airflow to move the dirt dislodged by the brush into the bag.

Today, Oreck has several different "models" of virtually the same machine. While the XL-21 had a larger suction OPENING and a larger fan chamber, it retains the little power nozzle motor, fan, and belt design of the first Oreck machines (including the XL-21's 3.5 amp motor).

While the design is sufficient for surface cleaning of the rug, the design falls short on suction, using a very fast rotating brush to 'comb' the carpet rather than using high suction to remove the dirt. I find that strong airflow as well as high speed agitation is the best design for rug cleaning.

I went to the Oreck store, curious, because I saw the Television commercial with David Oreck extolling the virtues of his eight-pound wonder. I was in sticker shock over the prices of these machines. The XL-21 was $800, and included a little compact vacuum (with TINY bags) because the upright had no attachments on the machine. I guess to make it eight pounds you have to take OUT something, like attachments, and make everything tiny (like the motor and fan).

The XL-21 has a fan vulverable to damage by hard debris. While it's hard plastic ("kevlar" they called it, which sounds like a made-up name to me), it's still in the path of the dirt. The belt is a simple flat power nozzle belt. Isn't this 2007? Where's the lifetime geared (cogged) belt of other $800 machines?

Then came the REAL shock. The bags. Not just for one vacuum, but for two. The little vac's tiny bags come twelve to a pack for $14. The upright's "celoc" (another made up word if you ask me) bags cost $20 for eight.

I asked them if I could test out the XL-21 on some rice I brought with me, to see "if it would edge clean well". They allowed me to throw the rice down against an edge. The Oreck just pushed it with it's mustache brushes, but didn't inhale it. I could smell the rice it did suck up, after grinding through the fan, and hitting the bag, coming through and out into the air.

I'm, admittedly, a Miele fan. My Miele 217 power nozzle sucks up rice along ANY edge, doesn't grind it through a fan, doesn't let any smells out (the carbon filter doesn't allow it), and the Miele has real, honest to God suction power. I have attachments to clean everything, including bare floors, and my Miele will last every bit of 21 years WITHOUT an annual 'tune up' and the associated hassle and expensve of driving the machine to and from a repair shop all the time.

My Miele will never need a new belt. Nor will the belt burn, crack, slip or break. My Miele is QUIET and the filtration is at the 100% level. Yet, the Miele cost less (by $300) than the Oreck XL-21. My model 514 Miele, in gorgeous Vibrant Red, cost $499 plus tax.

After all that, I decided that if I wanted a light weight vacuum for 'daily' jobs, I could just buy the Miele Universal Upright with a 217 power nozzle. I'd have a two motor machine, with five times the suction of the Oreck, at the same weight as the Oreck, for $500 less than the Oreck.

My personal thought is that the Oreck's price includes about a 50% markup because of all the advertising. I don't feel like paying for television commercials.

Post# 6761 , Reply# 31   12/29/2006 at 12:33 (6,327 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Well, you're over 21, and entitled just the same as me to make an informed decision. After the statements you made, I would say the Oreck is DEFINITELY NOT FOR YOU. You sound like a die-hard canister fan. I will defend Oreck to the death, and not because I work for them, but because I am a staunch believer in the product. I wonder if you'll have the same allegiance to Miele when you find out that the new models are being produced in China. Miele is pure markup as well (most of their canisters with power nozzles start at $7-800.00), and anybody that pays $1200.00 for a Red Velvet I think needs to get their head examined. For that kind of money, I would rather have a Kirby Sentria and get a lifetime warranty. What's the best warranty on a Miele? You will pay dearly for replacement parts as well, since everything comes from Germany. It's fairly obvious from the comments you make that you despise the Oreck. If that's the case, you should despise the Riccar equally so. And that's okay, because every day we convert two dozen or so people into loyal Oreck owners in our dealership alone. Most people today do not want to be bothered pushing a bulky power nozzle, and schlepping a clunky canister behind them.
I don't know what was wrong with the XL-21 you tested, but in our showroom that same vacuum devours rice, with no odors being expelled back into the air. You know darn well the Oreck cannot use a cogged belt, as it is a one motor system. It requires a flat belt (just as all other single motor uprights) that can break in the event an object gets jammed.
So, like I say the Oreck (and probably any other model upright) would not be for you. That's why Baskin-Robbins makes 31 flavors.

Post# 6762 , Reply# 32   12/29/2006 at 13:00 (6,327 days old) by luxboy ()        
Oreck belts & Riccar differences

 I actually think all of the sewing machine motor lightweight uprights serve a purpose in this life (not of which is to deep clean carpets however). They are great for older people or people who have certain disabilities that prevent them from using a full sized vacuum. As far the belt situation on an Oreck, for the average consumer, if everytime something got stuck in the vacuum the belt broke and had to be replaced, I can imagine that would get old. I guess that's why there is a storage place for an extra belt on the underside. It seems like the cogged belt nozzles with a reset button are much more effective as you only have to reach down and press the reset button. Warranty, warranty, warranty. Well.. I work for Electrolux, and with Electrolux or any other vacuum manufacturer, the warranty covers MANUFACTURERS DEFECTS ONLY, not WEAR AND TEAR. I can tell you that in 20 years, I will have most likely never had to bring my Miele in for a "TUNE UP" becuase it won't need one. There is nothing that will need to be tuned up, except for maybe a new brushroll eventually. I'm not sure where the idea came from that a Kirby has a lifetime warranty, because indeed, I have a friend who just purchased a Kirby Sentria and in the manual it states that there is a 3 year limited warranty on manufacturer defects. What might have spurred this idea is that Kirby does offer a lifetime offer to the ORIGINAL purchaser of the machine that for a certain price ($135, but subject to change according to the consumer price index) the machine may be sent back to Kirby to be rebuilt. I think Kirbys are fun machines and they definately have a cool look to them, but I certainly would not want one of these boat anchors as my daily driver. Again, I think these lightweights are great for older folks, or to pull out of the closet for a quick cleanup. I'll think I'll stick to my full size to guarantee that my carpets are indeed clean ;)

Derreck

Post# 6770 , Reply# 33   12/29/2006 at 17:41 (6,327 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

In my opinion, The Kirby/Rainbow/Filter Queen outcleans and outlasts the Oreck XL21/Oreck XL uprights!

Post# 6778 , Reply# 34   12/29/2006 at 20:52 (6,327 days old) by talktotravis ()        

The only Miele canister made in China is the S251 Plus, which I believe has been discontinued. The rest are made in Germany with oodles of quality built in.

Post# 6782 , Reply# 35   12/29/2006 at 21:34 (6,327 days old) by vacuumkid3 ()        

The Miele is or was made in China?? I thought that both Sebo and Miele were only made in Germany! Gosh...even Germany is getting China to make their vacuums! Oh, well...I still love both of 'em!

~~K~~

Post# 6783 , Reply# 36   12/29/2006 at 21:34 (6,327 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

For now, yes, but I happen to know from a few sources that the new line of Mieles is going to be produced in China. And yes, you will pay, and pay dearly for that German quality. Just as they soak you every time you visit the Mercedes dealer. I would rather buy an American made vacuum (like the Oreck), and have the parts readily available. Orecks don't need tune-ups, but it's a nice thing to have to keep the vacuum in peak operating condition. Let's face it, in 20 years your Miele will need parts replaced as well. Why do you refer to Orecks as "sewing machine motors?" At best, the low-end Mieles come with a turbo tool (which will do a good job, but nowhere near as good as a motorized power nozzle). As I already mentioned before Derreck, the Oreck CANNOT have a geared belt, as one motor drives the fan and the roller brush. You know that. If you want an Oreck canister with a geared belt, consider the Dutchtech. It has all the features of the Miele at a fraction of the price. I have one or two Mieles in my collection, but I really don't find them to be any better than the other canisters out there. If it has to be a canister, I'll pick my Electrolux Super J over the Miele any day of the week.

Post# 6784 , Reply# 37   12/29/2006 at 21:39 (6,327 days old) by compactc9 ()        

The Plus is still beeing sold, and is made in China. The S514 is also now made in China, but the quality is the same as any other Miele.

Post# 6786 , Reply# 38   12/29/2006 at 21:46 (6,327 days old) by compactc9 ()        

As to the life of the smaller motors VS larger motors. The Oreck motor is small and turns very fast (same for the Riccar RSL motor) this high speed will wear the small bearings out faster. Larget motors tend to turn slower, andh have larger bearings. Some larger motors are made cheaply, which will cause them to burn out quickly. A well made large motor, such as the Miele Vortex motor will last a long time and work efficiently, even if they are 12 amps.

Post# 6788 , Reply# 39   12/29/2006 at 21:54 (6,327 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

So why can't they make a large motor with lower amperage that will do the same job and last a long time? I see nothing wrong with the Kirby 500 series motors. The only thing I've ever replaced on one of those is brushes. Unfortunately, most vacuums out there today boast 12 amp motors, not because they're better, but mainly because they drain alot of current, and burn out in a very short period of time.

Post# 6789 , Reply# 40   12/29/2006 at 22:27 (6,327 days old) by compactc9 ()        

I agree with you there. I prefer large slower turning motors with a lower amp rating. The reason for high amp motors is basically because people have been lead o believe that higher amps mean more power, which is not true.

Post# 6792 , Reply# 41   12/29/2006 at 22:48 (6,327 days old) by piano_god (British Columbia, Canada)        
Single motor uprights utilizing cogged belts do exist...

 piano_god's profile picture
Such as the Sebo X series and Lindhaus Activa.

Post# 6798 , Reply# 42   12/30/2006 at 01:39 (6,327 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I AM CORRECT in saying larger motors can last longer-its very simple-In vacuums such as Royal Everlast,Classic,any Kirby sereies,These motors are turning SLOWER than the Oreck and under less load.At one vacuum repair place out here-he has PILES of burned out Oreck motors.The Oreck belt DOES NOT always break if it hits something that jams the brush roll.the circuit breaker like on a Riccar can give that protection.Compact upright vacuums such as the Oreck,Riccar,these motors are smaller and turning at very high speeds to get any amount of air movement from the smaller fans on these.I am sceptical that any compact upright vacuum is going to last 20 years under normal usage.Then we would have the issue of fans and fancases on these machines.their tiny fans spinning at higher speeds than other uprights certianly face disaster if they hit a coin or nail.Yes-even with careful vacuum users this can happen--you can't always see where you are vacuuming.and these compact uprights can go into and under places where you may not be able to see what you are picking up.The Oreck is a nice little vacuum-but I can't see it lasting 20 years like a Kirby,Royal metal,etc.At both vacuum shops here-in their repair piles are MANY junked Orecks.Some are only a few years old.Only two stores here carry them-an appliance store here in Greeville and another in Kinston-thats where I tried the XL21.

Post# 6799 , Reply# 43   12/30/2006 at 01:44 (6,327 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

For the price of two Oreck XL21s, You could get a Kirby Sentria with attachments/shampooer.
The Kirby Sentria outcleans and outlasts the Oreck XL21.

Post# 6801 , Reply# 44   12/30/2006 at 02:08 (6,327 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I own both a Kirby Sentria and 3 Orecks-the Kirby is the definte winner.And the Kirby doesn't need the compact canister with it.My Oreck canister just sits in a closet-a useless machine.The Oreck upright is a more useful machine than its companion mini-canister vacuum.If you presently own a Kirby machine-you can buy the Sentria at 50% off its regular price-then you can get the Kirby for only a few dollars more than the Oreck-and with kirby's Tech Drive-its even easier to push-pull than the Oreck.The Oreck is easier to lift and carry though.For the price of the Oreck-one could get the Sebo "Felix"a more powerful machine-and it can be used like a canister.

Post# 6803 , Reply# 45   12/30/2006 at 03:19 (6,327 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Kenmore/Bissell ProLite
6 amp motor
twin suction fans
160 cfm
about 4000 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
Riccar SupraLite/Simplicity Freedom
5.5 amp motor
single suction fan
106 cfm
about 4000 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
Oreck XL21 upright
4 amp motor
single suction fan
unknown cfm
5600 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll
Oreck XL upright
4 amp motor
single suction fan
unknown cfm
6500 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll

Post# 6804 , Reply# 46   12/30/2006 at 03:26 (6,327 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

The Kenmore/Bissell ProLite is no longer available. However, It is available under the Powr-Flite/CFR names.
The Riccar SupraLite/Simplicity Freedom is now available under the Hoover name.

Post# 6805 , Reply# 47   12/30/2006 at 03:43 (6,327 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Kirby G3/G4/G5/G6/Ultimate G/Diamond Edition/Sentria
6 amps floor/7 amps hose
109 cfm floor/120 cfm hose
single suction fan
about 4000 rpm brushroll speed
double brush brushroll aka QuadraSweep brushroll

Post# 6810 , Reply# 48   12/30/2006 at 06:27 (6,327 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I do have a vacuum cleaner that has a 12A motor-and can last a long time--how bout up to 50yrs-that is the NSS M1 "Pig" vacuum cleaner.The suction fan in these is almost 8" diameter and turns at a leisurely 8,000 RPM and can provide up to almost 200CFM airflow thru a 2"hose-1.5" hose will gve 150CFM.Sadly they aren't marketed to households-but commercially.I have three in my collection-and one of them is almost 30Yrs old and going strong.Replaced the brushes and bearings.and these jobs are EASY to do.The brushes on its large communtator are about 5/8" wide-can last for 2500Hrs.Ordinary vacuum motor brush specs are 500Hrs.

Post# 6811 , Reply# 49   12/30/2006 at 07:20 (6,327 days old) by ian88 ()        

Kevlar? made up? its only the material that helmets/torso armour used by the army are made of :p

Ian

Post# 6813 , Reply# 50   12/30/2006 at 09:32 (6,327 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

So you mean to say you use your NSS M1 "Pig" vacuum as your daily driver? I guess you like a vacuum that wastes electricity. I just can't see a need for a vacuum that uses all that amperage, and does the same job. You're right, in saying alot of Orecks will not last 20 years - those are the ones that get used and ABUSED. I've even had Orecks come in that vacuumed up dog sh--. I even pulled a thong out of an Oreck once. If you really tried, you could destroy an NSS "Pig" vacuum as well. However, I've seen many Orecks that have lasted the 20 years and then some. Like I say, the one I use on a regular basis is 22 years old, still has the original motor, fan, and fan housing and works great. I've even got some of the original XL-4000's that are 40 years old and still work.
"For the price of two Oreck XL-21's, you could get a Kirby Sentria with attachments/shampooer" - yes you're right about that. And that's fine for you and me, but most people today do not want to be bother schlepping a Kirby up and down stairs. When the Tech Drive is off, the unit is extremely heavy to transport, and how many people do you know of who actually use the shampooer? I just found a Kirby G5 thrown out in Jamaica, Queens with the shampooer never touched. Alot of people have difficulty even converting the vacuum to tool use. I've gotten several Kirby Generation 3's (among others) as trade-ins on new XL-21's.
Interesting story about the metaxalloy "kevlar" fans. Oreck switched to metaxalloy in 1998 for the new Millenium 2000 series machines. I was invited to the factory to watch an interesting demonstration where they shot through the fan with a 12-gauge shotgun. It left a clean hole in the fan, but the fan itself did not warp whatsoever. So even if a coin or a nail does hit the fan, worst that will happen is the fan housing breaks. If you're going to be vacuuming up such materials, you really should use a shop vac, or at the very least, the Buster B that came with the upright.

Post# 6827 , Reply# 51   12/30/2006 at 11:58 (6,326 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Kirby switched to Kevlar fans starting with the G5.

Post# 6828 , Reply# 52   12/30/2006 at 12:08 (6,326 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

I have three Kirbys:
Kirby G3 with attachments/shampooer
Kirby Ultimate G Diamond Edition with attachments/shampooer
Kirby Sentria with attachments/shampooer
I have a carpet cleaning business. I charge $20 per room.
I use shampoo carpets with all of my Kirbys. I use Kirby Allergen Control Lavender scent carpet shampoo. I use Kirby Micron Magic 99.7% filtration bags.

Post# 6829 , Reply# 53   12/30/2006 at 12:10 (6,326 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

What is the cfms on the Oreck XL21 upright/Oreck XL upright?

Post# 6839 , Reply# 54   12/30/2006 at 14:59 (6,326 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

I would like to have a cleaning contest pitting the Kirby Sentria against the Oreck XL21 upright/Oreck XL upright.
:)

Post# 6882 , Reply# 55   12/31/2006 at 01:35 (6,326 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Interesting about the Oreck fan-withstanding a gunshot-However at the real world vac places I help out at on weekends-they are replacing "Metaxalloy"fans at a routine rate.One has a bucket full of the Oreck fans he has replaced-and fancases as well.Usually the fancase goes with the fan.You need to really understand how universal motors work---On a motor like the NSS--it is very LIGHTLY loaded and turns at a low speed.It is not trying to turn a roller brush.I do have a separate powernozzle for the "Pig" would pit it against an Oreck anyday.The NSS has about 3 times the airflow of an Oreck.Just becuase you see a label on the motor nameplate of "12"A on the vacuum cleaner-that doesn't always mean the motor is drawing that much in actual use.That really means the current the motor could be loaded to in a laboratory test and work continuously without overheating or burning up.For most canister vacuums including the NSS-the motor is not being loaded to that value.Therefore it does run cooler.It is hard to feel any temp rise in the exhaust air as it runs.The Model M is one of my drivers.Use it for the really tough jobs.I would have to try harder to blow out a Model M as opposed to the Oreck.I think its interesting you still have some older Orecks that still work.you take care of your machines-in the "real" world others do not.thats why they don't last as long.Same with me-I take better care than most.Yes,I do use my Kirby shampooers.Have shampooers for most of mine in my collection.Lately I have been using "host" type cleaners for my carpets.these work really well and will not wet carpets.Oh on tough fans-would again give it to the "pig" hence the name-I used mine for a remodeling job cleanup at one of my friends house-did far better than a noisey Sears shop Vac.and beleive it or not the M1 fan ate J-box slugs,cable staples,even small nails and scraps of wire and came back for more.Was surprized to find these in the bag.they were all bent up or over.the blades on an M1 fan are over quarter in thick alluminum alloy.Never seen one of those broken.-nor its fan case-the fancase is lined with steel.And for less than the price of the two Orecks you can get an NSS "Pig"I use my pig for garage cleanups,cleaning out other vacuums,the paper shredder,and after the shopsmiths.and Oh yes I do use my Orecks on occasions as well.they are sort of fun to use.And yes they do better than the dysons I have in my collection.(DC07 and Dyson "Ball")The Dyson "Ball" vac has twin motors-one for the brush and other for suction.Will admit the little Oreck does better.And yes Dyson Vs Oreck-the Oreck is easier to push thanks to its "Helping Hand" woodplane style handle.the Orecks smaller head and body can get under things better than a Dyson.And yes I watch what I let the Oreck or any other fan first vac pick up.Well one time I let my freind try the M1-he did pick up a sock with it-the sock got into the M1 fan.Did stop it-and immiedately tripped the line breaker.got the sock out and the machine was fine!He was vacuuming under his bed-socks always hide in those places!!

Post# 6883 , Reply# 56   12/31/2006 at 03:12 (6,326 days old) by luxboy ()        
High amp vs. low amp

 Tolivac..

That is absolutely true.. just because a motor is 12 amps doesn't mean it is actually pulling 12 amps. For example, when I run my Miele on the 1200 watt setting, even with the powernozzle it is probably only pulling about 8 amps. You would have to jam the powernozzle motor and the vortex motor for it to pull the full 12 amps. For a vacuum to work properly, you have to have a brush that turns at a fast enough speed WITH enough suction to carry off the dirt. A 3.5 amp motor just can't do it. Expecting to get your carpets clean with a vacuum that uses one 3.5 amp motor is like expecting to win the Indianapolis 500 with a Ford Escort. Again, for $750, there are soooooo many better choices out there. That is sooo much to spend on a tiny motored upright and a buster bee vacuum with a tiny little bag that clogs quickly. There are lots of nice canister vacuums with nice powernozzles and nice attachments, and then you only need ONE vacuum that will do a very nice job.

Derreck

Post# 6888 , Reply# 57   12/31/2006 at 05:35 (6,326 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Yes,I also own a Meile Red Velvet-use this as well on occasions-all of my vacuums in my collection get used at some time or another.the Meile is a very good vacuum.They are very quiet and well designed.Plus very powerful for their size and remember the Meile "vortex" motor is SINGLE fan-and gives BETTER performance than many dual fan canister vacuums.Its how the fan is designed.I find it better to use the tools on my of my Kirbys than using the mini-canister that came with one of my Orecks.And the Kirby in the canister-hose mode sure moves more air and has better filtration than that "Buster-Bee" canister.Its tiny bag fills and clogs quickly and sometimes leaks dirt you just picked up-and yes-the bag and filter is in mine correctly.Oh yes on the Meile and other variable speed canisters-you can throttle the suction motor back on some of those delicate cleaning jobs-and the motor is just loafing.Very low current draw.And little heat.Modern switching PDM motor controls dissapate very little heat-have very low losses.I can remember the Oreck XL21 upright had two speeds-they suggested using the "low" speed for bare floors.I tried it at the Vacuum store in Kinston.The only full Oreck dealer in my area.He also carries Simplicity,Royal,and TriStar.

Post# 6940 , Reply# 58   12/31/2006 at 16:31 (6,325 days old) by rexairman ()        

I have owned vacuum cleaner stores for 36 years, and worked in the business as a kid before that. I have refined my position on the Oreck. I used to dismiss it as a piece of sh*t. I still don't like it any better than before, but have come to the realization that it is the outrageous price they get for the thing that infuriates me. If they were honest, they would say that the Oreck is a great light duty, quick pick-up vacuum for use when you don't want to get the real vacuum out, and sell it for $100-$150. What consumers are really paying for is the huge national advertising budget. Repair parts - and Orecks need repairs a LOT - they do not hold up well at all - cost anywhere from three to five times as much as the equivalent parts for other vacuums. And Oreck may be a satisfactory vacuum for a little old lady living on an upper floor of the retirement apartments (where they don't get much dirt), but it seems a shame to stab an old lady for $400. Sanitaire offers the lightweight (10 lb.) Model 634 (a descendant of the Eureka 1400 series) which we sell for $149.95. It is a far superior machine to the Oreck in terms of cleaning efficiency, and holds up well. It is warranted for two years and five years on the motor. The more powerful Sanitaires using this same platform, but with larger motors, metal handles, and Vibra Groomer I or II brush rolls, clean better than any other upright vacuums currently available, and I sell the top of the line 677 for $329.95, half the cost of the most expensive Oreck, and at least ten times the machine. As far as I'm concerned, the Oreck is the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American buying public.

Post# 6970 , Reply# 59   12/31/2006 at 23:33 (6,325 days old) by robgwisdala ()        

Very well said Clay Floyd! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Post# 6979 , Reply# 60   12/31/2069 at 18:00 (19,839 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Thats another-I would also go with the Eureka and Sanitaire over the Oreck.summed up above-less expensive to buy and repair and perform better than any Oreck made.I tried the Eureka 634 at one of the vac stores-not a bad machine for only $149.for a vac user as opposed to a collector this is a good value.Another customer at the store was deciding wether to buy a fleet of the 634's or spend more money on the Pro-Team upright vac(ProTeam one like the older electrolux upright)He was setting up a cleaning serive.He couldn't decide at the time which machine to buy.

Post# 6981 , Reply# 61   1/1/2007 at 02:10 (6,325 days old) by swingette ()        
floyd, yes!

 the amount of vacuum (oreck) does NOT justify the price!

Post# 7059 , Reply# 62   1/2/2007 at 02:23 (6,324 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Alright, fine, you've made your point very obvious. The ORECK IS NOT FOR ANY OF YOU! Now stop bashing the machine, and let's get on to more important posts!

Post# 7071 , Reply# 63   1/2/2007 at 09:33 (6,324 days old) by vacuumkid3 ()        

I think the Oreck was intended for older people, myself. It is lightweight to carry up stairs, and might be a good enough cleaner for them. But maybe that is just me.

Post# 7266 , Reply# 64   1/4/2007 at 00:04 (6,322 days old) by henrydreyfuss (Ohio)        

henrydreyfuss's profile picture
I currently own the blue RSL4 Riccar Supralite (top-o'-the-line model), and I used to own an Oreck xl21. I got the Riccar first, and I really loved it, but I always wished it was just a little quieter. Well after hearing Oreck boast about how quiet the xl21 was (they claim you can talk on the phone while using it), I excitedly bought a used one.

The xl21 was clearly the most powerful lightweight Oreck ever made, but overall (since I already owned the Riccar Supralite), I was disappointed. What upset me the most about it was that even though it was soooo much more expensive (we sell the TOTL Riccar Supralite for $289.95, but they retail for like 500 dollars or something... which really is just too much money to ask for a vacuum like that in this part of the country), it simply did not clean as well as the Riccar. It did better than the other orecks, but still not as well as the 8-pounder I was already using. At the end of the day I want the vacuum that legitimately cleans the carpet.

Also, the Oreck xl21 is not nearly as quiet as I had thought it would be (hoped it would be). You totally could not talk on the phone while using it. It was quieter than a standard whiny Oreck, but not a quiet vacuum by any means.

I sold the Oreck on ebay a month or so after I got it.

Orecks are incredibly popular because David Oreck is a marketing genius. I bet he could sell sand to people who live in the desert. The Riccar Supralite will never be nearly as popular as the Oreck is, but it will always be the superior vacuum.

Corey

Post# 7270 , Reply# 65   1/4/2007 at 00:59 (6,322 days old) by kirbyultimateg (Troy Ohio 45373 USA)        

In my opinion, The Oreck XL21 upright/Oreck XL upright is a very expensive electricbroom!


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