Thread Number: 35013
/ Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
More airflow tests. |
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Post# 377459   8/29/2017 at 18:38 (2,432 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I think it'd be better for me to stick to a single thread rather than making a new one for each machine. I feel like i've been spamming the forum lately.
So fresh off the box we have a Shark UV795 31 Powered Rotator lift away. In the 2nd picture we can see that when placed on the box it has nearly 1/3 of it's original waterlift. Machines lose a lot of power at the nozzle. |
Post# 377580 , Reply# 1   8/30/2017 at 08:54 (2,431 days old) by Wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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Post# 377591 , Reply# 2   8/30/2017 at 14:24 (2,431 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)   |   | |
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I would like to do these airflow tests, but where do I buy the tools for it?
The Kirby airflow meter for instance (I do not mind having to buy it from the US)? I had this idea 6 month ago and I bought an anemometer (I think that is the name) but it was to weak and just shattered when coming close to the wand. Long time ago I read a post on this site with some guy that had built a carbon box for these type of measures (I was so inspired and impressed)and I tried and failed myself. Please, some hints. I will not use it in any videos, but may post it here if I just get the hang of it. |
Post# 377592 , Reply# 3   8/30/2017 at 15:03 (2,431 days old) by Wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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Post# 377601 , Reply# 4   8/30/2017 at 16:24 (2,431 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)   |   | |
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Post# 377614 , Reply# 5   8/30/2017 at 19:19 (2,431 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Another surprise i thought it would have had more flow, but it has a very large amount of twists and turns in it's airpath. The reason i took readings on both smooth and low pile is due to the suction motor automatically turning itself down when the brushroll is active listening to the sound of the unit and messing with the speed control i've found that it's carpet speed is about low pile max. I also think it's kinda funny that the motor was running at 1165 watts, so the motor should be the same as the canisters? 1200w vortex and yet the airpath of the machines majorly effects the flow.
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Post# 377616 , Reply# 6   8/30/2017 at 19:44 (2,431 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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I'm stunned that such an expensive machine still has no better nozzle airflow than a typical bag-less cheapie. I love the look and features of the S7, but your tests reveal that Miele has produced an expensive package that's nothing more than a look and features.
Devin, I have one request. Do you remember when you gave me some Miele C3 Baird meter readings a while back? Is it possible to get the nozzle airflow tests on that C3? I would like to see how close my predictions were. Bill |
Post# 377617 , Reply# 7   8/30/2017 at 19:56 (2,431 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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It's possible yes, I was going to wait until i finally got my C3 brilliant but that's months away yet. When people look at Miele i often tell them right off the bat that the canisters are more powerful than the uprights. I mean I like my Fresh air it's a very nice vacuum, the bare floor pick up is fantastic, the carpet cleaning hasn't dissapointed me either, But i have a feeling that the brilliant will outdo the S7.
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Post# 377618 , Reply# 8   8/30/2017 at 19:57 (2,431 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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Airflow Box Introduction
Airflow Box Test of the Kirby Sentria II GM8901 Anemometer ($25.21, Free Shipping) http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM8901-Anemomete... Baird Meter www.goodvac.com/AirFlow_Indicator... Good luck! I look forward to seeing your tests! BTW, here's what $70 USD can get you. Tough to spend $1000 on an upright or canister that scores 50-60 CFM, eh? Bill |
Post# 377640 , Reply# 9   8/31/2017 at 08:57 (2,430 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)   |   | |
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Here's what I would like to see: If you could do a test with a turbo nozzle. It would be interesting, as we know the turbo robs the airflow. I would like to see just how much, I'm betting it is pretty significant.
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Post# 377664 , Reply# 10   8/31/2017 at 15:00 (2,430 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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Post# 377665 , Reply# 11   8/31/2017 at 15:11 (2,430 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)   |   | |
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I will watch when I get home. Can't access youtube at work. |
Post# 377670 , Reply# 12   8/31/2017 at 19:17 (2,430 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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This was interesting it's essentially as powerful as my D4. When measuring the D4 i did not have a fully clean bag nor was the wand leaned back into a cleaning position. So the CFM at the nozzle is probably even closer than my results show. Out of curiosity i also took waterlift readings.
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Post# 377671 , Reply# 13   8/31/2017 at 19:25 (2,430 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 377672 , Reply# 14   8/31/2017 at 19:39 (2,430 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Ah the synergy i've been saying for some time now that i believe this is the best cleaning vacuum. I was honestly expecting over 100 nozzle cfm but eh. As a bonus i included a picture of the bag i took out of the machine. I live in a 1 bedroom apt with a cat not a whole lot of space to clean and it hasn't been used too much so i was shocked to see the amount of dirt in it. there was a lot of denser dirt caught in the clumps low in the bag. I'm really beginning to wonder what's up with the nozzle testing It should not have more flow at the hose then at the base especially with the wide airpath.
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Post# 377673 , Reply# 15   8/31/2017 at 20:48 (2,429 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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The synergy will be re-done i think i may have been holding the vane wrong. It significantly effects your numbers if you hold the wrong side of it to the airflow. I found some old numbers from when the dirty bag was still installed (the same one seen above) and i was getting 86.83 and 99.15 at the nozzle with 1 and 2 motors. Something really seemed off when i was getting more flow from the hose that makes no sense. Disregard the post above and we'll see what tommorow brings.
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Post# 377696 , Reply# 17   9/1/2017 at 13:15 (2,429 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)   |   | |
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Thanks Bill!
Much appreciated. I will be watching this weekend. Blackheart (proof of me having a U1 are in the pics or in the pudding :-)): I noticed the same for my Miele U1. It struggled to pick up some long rice left in one mess vacuuming I did (after using a vacuum starting with an O ending with a k). I thought I would bring out "The Beast" to finish what the previous vacuum did not. To my surprise it did not help. What the U1 did, however, was bringing up a lot of rice to the surface of the high pile but it could not bring it to the bag. I used my Sebo Felix in the end which did the job. Very interesting thread this is, I have to say. I know that this is more or less a site for US people, but I cannot comment on American vacuums as there are not many in Europe (where I live). This post was last edited 09/01/2017 at 13:53 |
Post# 377707 , Reply# 18   9/1/2017 at 17:55 (2,429 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Harley, I can perform that test when i test the C3 cat and dog, I have access to a C2 with a turbine. I have owned a wessel werk turbing I think it was a Tk284 and wessel werk sent me a few gates "the opening into the turbine" they come in 3 different sizes Miele's turbine seems to use the largest opening so i'd except their turbine tool won't lose as much as most will. We may also have a turbocat lying around....
Jakob. I like the Miele uprights but I know there's better I'd certainly take them over the majority of other items on the market. They are a good machine. (Good machine to me means i'd be comfortable owning it as a sole vacuum or supplemented with something if it lacks tools.) But their canisters are superior to their uprights. I'm curious I see you have the electronic control does it too automatically step down when the brushroll is in use? |
Post# 377745 , Reply# 20   9/2/2017 at 16:10 (2,428 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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The process was developed by Bill, Wyaple on here. I have no idea how he came up with the conversion. I just go with it. I wanted to see what sort of numbers my machines were pulling and the baird meter isn't exactly an effective tool for comparison since it's on a scale of 10 it leaves you thinking there's a dramatic difference between the numbers. I just learned about his process and started to do it myself with a few differences. It's been an interesting process for me some of my machines do better than i expect but most of them actually do worse than i had hoped.
and for those paying attention to the thread I'll have 4 more machines done, hopefully tonight the measurements have been taken, now it's just a matter of conversion, and photo editing. |
Post# 377747 , Reply# 21   9/2/2017 at 17:04 (2,428 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Pretty impressive from a 9 lb upright. With it's nylon bristles it also has excellent agitation.
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Post# 377748 , Reply# 22   9/2/2017 at 17:07 (2,428 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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As thought the Felix is indeed more powerful.
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Post# 377749 , Reply# 23   9/2/2017 at 17:08 (2,428 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I didn't bother taking the full tests as i was more focused on the turbine aspect for Harley besides both Mieles have the 1200 watt vortex
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Post# 377750 , Reply# 24   9/2/2017 at 17:10 (2,428 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Despite having the same motor the hose losses and wand losses are quite different i'd assume it's due to the wiring in the hose and the electric channel which consumes wand space.
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Post# 377763 , Reply# 26   9/2/2017 at 22:48 (2,427 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Should be correct. As the brush is put to carpet it will slow the turbine which should impede it's airflow further. So really the figure is more like a max flow figure, in use it'll be less. Though i cannot tell you how much. An electric tool is going to give you better agitation and despite overall losing more through the electric hose and wand you still do have more airflow at the base. Though distributed over a larger opening.
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Post# 377764 , Reply# 27   9/2/2017 at 22:55 (2,427 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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This is how you convert feet per minute into CFM when using this anemometer.
Diameter of GM8901 Anemometer Detector = 2.1875 inches Radius = 1.09375 inches = .0911458 feet Detector Area = 3.1415926 x .0911458 x .0911458 = 0.0260990 (rounded) Sooooo, if the vacuum generates 5000 ft./min that would be: 5000 x .026099 = 130.5 CFM Hope this helps, Bill |
Post# 377765 , Reply# 28   9/2/2017 at 23:05 (2,427 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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Devin,
When you first gave me the measurements of the C3, you had measured 101 CFM at the end of the hose and 95 CFM at the end of the extended wand (just before going into the power nozzle). Do you have any idea as to why your newer measurements are so much lower? The end of wand readings are off by 14 CFM, which is huge. And a drop from 79" to 18" of water lift at the PN probably means there's a major leak somewhere. Bill Initial Measurements: Hose: 101 CFM Wand: 95 CFM Second Measurements: Hose: 95 CFM Wand: 81 CFM |
Post# 377766 , Reply# 29   9/2/2017 at 23:16 (2,427 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)   |   | |
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Although I've posted this many times before, here it is again. From Baird "0" to Baird "8", the spring in the meter itself is fairly linear and amazingly accurate. The last two markings, namely "9" and "10", are non-linear as the spring becomes stretched beyond its linear limits and the graph flattens out somewhat.
The spring follows Hooke's law, that is F = -kX Bill |
Post# 377768 , Reply# 30   9/3/2017 at 05:37 (2,427 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I cannot be completely sure but here's my thoughts on the difference. A new bag was put into the machine to ensure the highest possible flow.
We had used a baird meter before to measure it's flow. The meter i used was the shop's, i have no idea how old these meters are but seeing as the place has a long history with kirby i'd guess they are pretty well used which could perhaps cause the spring to stretch out a little bit and lose some of it's pull. While this should not be a factor it's not the same wand we measured from the first time. A customer needed a wand replaced and her machine was under warranty. She uses two of them for house cleaning and needed a wand pretty quickly so we figured we'd take the wand from the higher machine which was probably not going to move anytime soon. We then just ordered a new wand and put it with it. I can't recall whether or not we fully extended the wand the last time, this time was wand was fully extended. As for the waterlift differences when taking the wand measurement i noticed an audible leak coming from these little things. With the nozzle difference an attempt to create a seal on the box causes a lot of leakage just like with most nozzles a lot of it comes from the neck of it. I also can feel a small amount of air being drawn from where the 2 halves of the nozzle's housing join together. when doing these tests I measured hose and wand cfms first with both canisters since i tape my baird adaptor to the vane to ensure there's less loss so i know the orientation of the meter was not an issue. Wattages were close at 1149 and 1158 so the speed setting was not a factor either. I had actually performed the C3 nozzle test twice. After taking it's initial measurements I started to take pictures and I couldn't help but think that there's no way those numbers could be right and I must have done something wrong. SO i re-tested it and got the same numbers. I did want higher numbers from this machine. I feel like it's a really nice vacuum and, I guess, I just had higher hopes for it.
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Post# 377820 , Reply# 32   9/4/2017 at 12:12 (2,426 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)   |   | |
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Blackheart: I do not want to hijack this tread but I do need to respond.
Sorry if I sounded negative about the Miele U1. I am not. I completely agree with you. The quality is outstanding, the brush is powerful and it is versatile (I can fit my Miele Twister to the wand and use it as I would with a canister). |
Post# 377870 , Reply# 33   9/4/2017 at 19:43 (2,426 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I've been trying to re-measure my Simplicity S40P and I'm still not matching my original set of numbers with the dirty bag. It seems like it's for some reason difficult to get the baseplate of the machine to create a good seal with the box.
My original numbers (prior to this thread where: 1 motor: 86.83 CFM 2 motors: 99.15 CFM Then i put in a new bag and got the numbers above. I'm not exactly sure what i did wrong in that test but the numbers were signicantly lower, i feel i may have held the wrong side of the vane to the box. 1 motor: 67.8 CFM 2 motors: 83.23 CFM So i finally ran another series of tests tonight. 1 motor: 84.77 CFM 2 motors: 95.55 CFM Bag door open (direct air motor only): 98.63 CFM. Something is still off here a machine with a dirty bag should not have more flow than a machine with a clean one. I'm much more satisfied with these numbers though. I feel the Synergy are the best cleaning uprights you can buy. So I'd love to see their maximum airflow. I know a new synergy can pull a wooden dowel away from a new Kirby avalir but there's not too huge of a difference the kirby can snatch it away if the synergy is being pulled backwards. Multiple adjustments were tried same result. |
Post# 377887 , Reply# 34   9/5/2017 at 02:43 (2,425 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)   |   | |
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I am wondering for these airflow tests if a Wood box,or even metal one can be built for these tests-with adjustable gaskets for sealing the nozzle,tool to the box.The tests are interesting,though.Vac builders should take note! |
Post# 378796 , Reply# 36   9/22/2017 at 18:25 (2,408 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)   |   | |
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C2 v C3... just guessing C2 shorter hose and non-electric hose/wand and different nozzle could all impact the results. |
Post# 378797 , Reply# 37   9/22/2017 at 18:27 (2,408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Wyaple's cfm measurements were based off baird meter readings that I took. The baird meter used has likely been used for many Kirby demos leading me to believe that the spring in it may be stretched out a little which would lead to higher readings.
The measurements I took were measured with an anemometer I got a wind speed and thanks to Bill (wyaple) that can be converted to volume. Now as to the Differences in flow. The motors are the same. the differences are in the hose and wand. The C3's hose has an electric cord running through it. Not only does that take up space in the hose but it could potentially create turbulence. The wand is also narrower thanks to the electric components being in the way. |
Post# 378834 , Reply# 40   9/23/2017 at 16:31 (2,407 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I have access to 3 Baird meters, 1 I own, the other two belong to the shop. The measurements i gave to Bill (wyaple) used the shop (front) meter as we can see we are getting a higher reading from it vs the other two. This for me confirms my idea that it's spring is somewhat worn so there would be less resistance.
The machine used was the same Miele C3 I've been testing. It does have a little sand in it's bag but it shouldn't be enough to impact it's numbers much at all
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Post# 378835 , Reply# 41   9/23/2017 at 16:38 (2,407 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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As we can see the hoses are similar in length. the electric has a cord running inside of it. The electric wands also have a narrower interior.
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Post# 378862 , Reply# 46   9/24/2017 at 08:25 (2,406 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)   |   | |
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It would be interesting to compare the airflow of a Miele C1 and C3, with the C3, Miele says that it's a totally sealed system, they don't make this claim for the C1, I'm not sure if this even makes a difference or if it's just marketing hype, but thought I would mention it. Mike |
Post# 378871 , Reply# 47   9/24/2017 at 13:00 (2,406 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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The Baird meter was not designed or intended to make scientific measurements! This tool was designed merely to make general comparisons in airflow between different vacuum cleaners.
It is true that most bagless vacuum cleaners generate high suction but very little airflow where most bagged units generate much more airflow with less suction and Direct Air machines generate the most airflow of all types of cleaners.
The Baird meter is also a useful tool to indicate when your bagged vacuum cleaner may need to have it's bag replaced or maybe a tune up is needed.
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Post# 378965 , Reply# 49   9/27/2017 at 07:19 (2,403 days old) by Kloveland (Tulsa)   |   | |
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So the old-fashioned simple fan first designed uprights outperformed the expensive clean air uprights and canisters. Looks like they even out performed the tandem air designs. Good reason to use my Kirbys and Hoover Convertibles. I think the results speak for themselves. I don't think a person can really argue raw numbers or facts.
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Post# 383172 , Reply# 51   12/27/2017 at 19:23 (2,311 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Well I recently purchased a Miele C3 Brilliance and I'm once again getting different figures. I think the most likely explanation for the difference in the C3 cat and dog and this unit is the filter. The cat and dog used a granulated charcoal filter where the Brilliance uses a Hepa filter. I figure having solid particals in the filter has to have some sort of effect on it's flow.
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Post# 383173 , Reply# 52   12/27/2017 at 19:30 (2,311 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Someone gave this to me for Christmas. They jokingly said I should measure it's power.....so I did.
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Post# 392410 , Reply# 53   5/27/2018 at 16:37 (2,161 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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An HVR200-11 quite a powerhouse,but the floor tool leaks quite a bit. When the ball gauge was put onto the airflow box i could feel air leaking around the joints and around the selector pedal on the floor head.
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Post# 392411 , Reply# 54   5/27/2018 at 16:39 (2,161 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Looking at Bill's test of his 1401 B they have not changed much since that time.
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Post# 392413 , Reply# 55   5/27/2018 at 18:39 (2,161 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 392563 , Reply# 56   5/31/2018 at 08:49 (2,157 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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My airflow box is finally ready. Well it still needs a paint.
I made it from the plywood and sealed everything with the acrylic mass. I can also measure the suction with it. Hole diameter is 5.6 cm (2.2 inches) When the GM 8901 Anemometer arrives can I use site in the link to convert mph to cfm? CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK
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Post# 392565 , Reply# 57   5/31/2018 at 09:03 (2,157 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392585 , Reply# 58   5/31/2018 at 14:50 (2,157 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392587 , Reply# 59   5/31/2018 at 16:28 (2,157 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392589 , Reply# 60   5/31/2018 at 16:52 (2,157 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 392591 , Reply# 61   5/31/2018 at 18:09 (2,157 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392597 , Reply# 62   5/31/2018 at 21:34 (2,156 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Are somewhat on the "quick and dirty" side with the Luxes. The Sentria I airflow box is exact (127.4 CFM) as I measured that Kirby several times over several minutes.
When using the GM8901 anemometer, please use only this conversion to obtain CFM from Ft./Min.: 0.0260990 It was derived from these measurements and formula. Diameter of GM8901 Anemometer Detector = 2.1875 inches Radius = 1.09375 inches = .0911458 feet Detector Area = 3.1415926 x .0911458 x .0911458 = 0.0260990 (rounded) Can't wait to see your airflow (and nozzle suction) tests as well as power usage measurements. Bill |
Post# 392611 , Reply# 63   6/1/2018 at 04:02 (2,156 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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I am excited to test the airflow box.
Biggest challenge is to make a good seal between the nozzle and the box. Of course I can test it with the baird meter before the GM8901 arrives (without the hose adapter). So the formula is anemometer result x 0.026099. I will use it. Now i need to get some sealant material for my airflow box. I was wondering if I can cut pieces out of my blue rubber backed very low pile rug and make a custom pieces for each nozzle? |
Post# 392620 , Reply# 64   6/1/2018 at 09:55 (2,156 days old) by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 392627 , Reply# 65   6/1/2018 at 13:21 (2,156 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392630 , Reply# 66   6/1/2018 at 13:55 (2,156 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 392637 , Reply# 67   6/1/2018 at 15:29 (2,156 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Yeah, I re-watched the video on it the hose cfm was taken using a baird guage so we were told 110 cfm without a bag at the hose end. The flow was also not taken with a bag and that makes me wonder how much it would have been reduced looking at Bill's olympia test that machine pulled 113 from the machine without a bag and went down to 104 when a hepa bag was installed. that machine lost a mere 9 cfm at the bag chamber but unfortunately this number isn't a constant the power of the machine is going to have an influence over how much will be lost and i think it's safe to say that machine with higher flow also have higher losses. I don't have a number for the no bag hose end olympia but if we compare the numbers from the bag in test and the marquis from the video
Olympia Body: 104 Hose: 95 91.35% of airflow retained Marquis (suped-up) Body 160 Hose :110 68.75% of airflow retained. I've also taken a look at my Filter Queen airflow tests since i used the exact same hose wand and powerhead the only variable was the machines themselves. I see it here too where more flow is lost from the more powerful machine. Oddly the wand was consistent, possibly due to it's smooth interior?
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Post# 392682 , Reply# 68   6/2/2018 at 03:41 (2,155 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392684 , Reply# 69   6/2/2018 at 07:26 (2,155 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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You'd increase your airflow density due to the smaller area of the nozzle, and you would probably have a very slight increase in flow at the head. I feel though that the wessel-werk head has better agitation though, but I have no good way to measure that.
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Post# 392685 , Reply# 70   6/2/2018 at 08:07 (2,155 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392687 , Reply# 71   6/2/2018 at 08:27 (2,155 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 392752 , Reply# 72   6/3/2018 at 14:35 (2,154 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392762 , Reply# 73   6/3/2018 at 19:56 (2,154 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 392775 , Reply# 74   6/3/2018 at 23:57 (2,153 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392868 , Reply# 75   6/5/2018 at 17:07 (2,152 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Well the platinum arrived today and I thought i'd have to hold off until new filters were purchased but the ones that came in it must have been very new as I think this machine was purchased in 2014. So here's some pictures and i'll place the results in the next post so one doesn't need to dig through these to find them. I cannot get a proper seal on the machine's inlet due to it's shape but I threw the picture in anyhow for fun.
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Post# 392869 , Reply# 76   6/5/2018 at 17:29 (2,152 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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And here are the results. This machine has the higest flow i've seen out of a canister. I do think the power nozzle holds it back. It's undoubtedly a nice machine it's very quiet and has a lot of both suction and flow (at least for a canister). I'm a little iffy about it at the time but we'll see how continued use of it changes my views.
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Post# 392887 , Reply# 77   6/6/2018 at 07:48 (2,151 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392895 , Reply# 78   6/6/2018 at 12:34 (2,151 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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It's mostly the power nozzle. While lux nozzles are reliable (generally) I don't feel they're very good deep cleaners. The wands are also a little short for me (I'm 6'4") The canister itself is nice it's quiet it's got a powerful motor but the bag capacity and 2 filters would be rather costly over time, though i suppose if you have the money for one of these new that's the least of your worries. It also seems to have a high pull weight even on bare floors, all the wheels spin freely.
I dunno I like the style and the power of the main motor, but i just feel that power nozzle just drags this whole thing down, despite it's airflow advantage I have a feeling my Miele, Simplicity, and possibly Sebo canisters outclean this on carpeting. |
Post# 392902 , Reply# 79   6/6/2018 at 13:18 (2,151 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392923 , Reply# 81   6/6/2018 at 20:05 (2,150 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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I think it's quite a great machine but about a 32 CFM loss from the hose/wand connection down to the PN is very high indeed. Normally, I would post a pic of my Hoover Tempo Widepath (under $100) that does 80 nozzle CFM, but I already did that farther up this thread.
For what Lux charges for this machine brand new, 81 nozzle CFM is simply unacceptable to me. Mike's Vorwerk will probably end up testing near 90 CFM when his GM8901 anemometer arrives. I've always wanted a GP and now I know what I would be willing to pay for one. Bill |
Post# 392930 , Reply# 82   6/6/2018 at 22:39 (2,150 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I kind of feel that perhaps we've seen the strongest flow we'll see out of a canister. I do recall seeing a Kenmore intuition pull the baird meter back to a 10 but since that was on one of the shop's baird meters that result could be skewed due to a worn spring. Anyhow i've put together a comparison chart and we can see all the measurements that i've taken for canisters so far. There were a few figures I either did not collect or could not collect which are marked with N/M (Not measured) I'm also working on a chart for uprights but I have a few more figures to collect before that's posted.
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Post# 392936 , Reply# 83   6/7/2018 at 07:06 (2,150 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392944 , Reply# 84   6/7/2018 at 10:40 (2,150 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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I am very jealous to the Australians. They have this (SAUBER EXCELLENCE SE-400) with the fantastic Sebo ET-1 powerhead.
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Post# 392945 , Reply# 85   6/7/2018 at 12:11 (2,150 days old) by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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I know Mike's Vorwerk is an upright. Geez.
The point I'm attempting to make is twofold. 1) 80 nozzle CFM isn't much to crow about since much cheaper clean air machines can achieve this figure and 2) A 1980 Electrolux Olympia One with a new vinyl hose can get 75 nozzle CFM. So 2014-1980 is 34 years and only a 5 CFM improvement from something that touts 505 Airwatts and 116" of water lift? Yes, I'm disappointed. Bill |
Post# 392947 , Reply# 86   6/7/2018 at 13:42 (2,150 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392964 , Reply# 87   6/7/2018 at 17:19 (2,150 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 392980 , Reply# 88   6/8/2018 at 05:17 (2,149 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 392994 , Reply# 89   6/8/2018 at 10:34 (2,149 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Here is my Miele C3 with the Sebo ET-1 ph measurements.
Maximum nozzle cfm was around 65-70 cfm and suction 35 inches of water. Motor draws 1430 watts. |
Post# 392995 , Reply# 90   6/8/2018 at 11:01 (2,149 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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How much flow and suction is lost in a bypass design/canister's nozzle. I'm beginning to think that it may partially be intentional. If we retained all the suction of like the lux platinum at the base plate it would undoubtedly seal to the carpeting which would make it hard to push/pull and the brushroll motor would either strain or just stop. Direct air machines have a massive amount of flow but lack enough suction to have this problem.
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Post# 393003 , Reply# 91   6/8/2018 at 12:59 (2,149 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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At the hose end this has baird 9 = 108 cfm.
I don't know how much wand eats the airflow. My Vorwerk with 85 nozzle cfm is nightmare to push. I need to open the air release holes from the powerhead or lower the motor speed to make it usable. So too much airflow + suction can be challenging to manage. |
Post# 393005 , Reply# 92   6/8/2018 at 13:44 (2,149 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 393006 , Reply# 93   6/8/2018 at 13:44 (2,149 days old) by kenkart ()   |   | |
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JUST fOR THE BEAUTIFUL HOSE!!! |
Post# 393110 , Reply# 94   6/11/2018 at 17:35 (2,146 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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The Dirt Devil Ultra MVP is by far the strongest bypass machine i've measured with an amazing 129.95 CFM at the base I did get a reading of 128.45 when re-testing it but I tend to use the highest numbers they achieve and in past testing it has reached 4980 FPM or 129.95 CFM.
It is missing an after filter due to the last one being tossed out. They're made of an electrostatic material and they never wash out well. This machine achieves it's record flow (at least for a bypass) by using a large and short airpath as seen in the 2nd photo. I've always thought this design to have a lot of potential and with some refinement it could be great. |
Post# 393112 , Reply# 95   6/11/2018 at 17:58 (2,146 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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The Eureka Excalibur, it was an interesting attempt at a 2 motor upright from eureka and while it's flow rate at the floor is decent it should be much more powerful the fill tube is short and wide it uses a metal "door" which has a trigger where the wand is inserted, when the wand is removed a spring pulls this door closed to divert air to the hose. unfortunately this system isn't well sealed and causes a massive loss of power. Either way it was an interesting setup
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Post# 393116 , Reply# 96   6/11/2018 at 22:28 (2,145 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 393121 , Reply# 97   6/12/2018 at 01:30 (2,145 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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neither of these machines are set up like a conventional bypass upright. the Air does not need to travel through the hose to get to the nozzle instead there is a separate air path for the nozzle and one for the hose. You can see a little bit of the mechanism used on the Eureka in some of the additional photos.
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Post# 393197 , Reply# 98   6/14/2018 at 07:59 (2,143 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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And a small nozzle area, I would imagine that it doesn't (or it's not recommended) make a seal with the carpet? Without a power assist, the airflow density would be so extreme, it wouldn't be usable on pile carpet. Would owners raise the nozzle up too high and break the seal, or would they simply just not use it on higher pile carpet?
I wonder why such a machine was discontinued? Bill |
Post# 393211 , Reply# 99   6/14/2018 at 12:13 (2,143 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)   |   | |
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I've seen a video of that Ultra MVP comparing against the Royal Everlast 8300 in the airflow "Pipe" test and it surprisingly beat the Royal. I've only seen these a few times and I only turned one on once but I've never really used it. But honestly though, I would've bought any plastic by-pass upright back in the 90's, I would've bought one of these. I think these are probably no doubt the best Dirt Devil they've ever made and I also think it's perhaps the best by-pass upright that was ever made. Although I honestly think the Simplicity 7350 back then was impossible to beat.
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Post# 393212 , Reply# 100   6/14/2018 at 12:26 (2,143 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 393214 , Reply# 101   6/14/2018 at 13:14 (2,143 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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One of the problems with this machine is the brushroll motor is pretty wimpy and the brushroll will stall due to the machine sealing to the carpeting. I can use it alright on my carpet as long as the height adjustment is set at least to the middle but i've noticed i still get vibration from it on the 2nd highest setting. Rugs are kind of difficult to clean as it tends to clamp onto them.
It is odd that they'd be able to snatch a pipe away from an everlast I've not measured one yet, but I don't think it has more flow than one, but i think it has something to do with the nozzle configurations since the airflow path on the mvp is located at the rear of the nozzle facing foreward at base>? height it's most likely directing it's flow towards the front. I've always felt like Kirbys (and therefore royals) distribute it's flow around the perimeter of the nozzle due to the air path being higher (airflow hits the inside of the nozzle and is spread out more) I could be wrong though it's just an idea. Other members have told me that I need to get my hands on a Royal Powecast. They too had a short and wide airpath. |
Post# 393246 , Reply# 102   6/15/2018 at 10:58 (2,142 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 393251 , Reply# 103   6/15/2018 at 12:17 (2,142 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Kirby G6 got 121 cfm from the nozzle.
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Post# 393261 , Reply# 104   6/15/2018 at 18:05 (2,142 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 393286 , Reply# 105   6/16/2018 at 00:48 (2,141 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 393390 , Reply# 106   6/17/2018 at 14:57 (2,140 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Can this actually be 134 cfm.
Did I do something wrong? CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK
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Post# 393391 , Reply# 107   6/17/2018 at 15:21 (2,140 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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How much power does it draw? Seems like a reasonable result. It appears to be in the same general class (120+ CFM) as the SEBO D4, Tristar CXL, Filter Queen M360 and Henry HVR200.
Of course a "hot rodded" Electrolux Marquis with a 12 Amp (1440 Watt) motor is the highest base canister CFM I've seen so far. As always, repeat the measurement a few times to make sure you get a consistent result. Bill |
Post# 393393 , Reply# 108   6/17/2018 at 15:52 (2,140 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 393397 , Reply# 109   6/17/2018 at 17:28 (2,140 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 393402 , Reply# 110   6/17/2018 at 19:03 (2,140 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Base of the vacuum reading was high indeed, but I had the hose tangled up, not straight at all. I am expecting over 100 cfm from the hose end. I should also clean the reusable bag in this Philips.
What was interesting that this should have 1000 watt motor. However It constantly draw nearly 1200 watts. It sounds original 2-stage motor, so I don't think that it has been replaced. Hose is 1.8 meter (5.9 feet) long. |
Post# 393488 , Reply# 111   6/18/2018 at 18:41 (2,139 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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There's a Hoover type A bag in this currently so i'm not convinced that it's functioning at it's peak but just out of curiosity I ran this test just to get a ballpark for it's flow. I was hoping for 150 CFM.
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Post# 393502 , Reply# 112   6/18/2018 at 22:45 (2,138 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Hey
Wow that does look good polished up. I got the royal from my work(Walgreens). They thought vacuum had shake out bag. I acquired it and the nozzle and vacuum bag was full and couldn't see tube. I blew everything out and out fell a fill tube. I washed bag and patched hole in bag. I recently upgraded sanitaire to type a bag and that is where the bag came from. It was closest fit. I have royal b bags i found. Maybe if you take off baseplate it might increase airflow. The right bag would help too. I thought it had more airflow than sentria. The g6 is basically the same and the test show it indeed has more power. I have a royal backpack vacuum ry4001 that has 8.5 amps. I thought it was 10 or 12 amp but website says 8.5. If I were guess id say it has 105 at hose. I will. Have to get some tools and do some tests. Glad to see the royal. Les |
Post# 393538 , Reply# 113   6/19/2018 at 18:28 (2,138 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I didn't want to wait for proper B hepa bags so i picked up some Royal L bags (similar in size to Hoover A) and got them to fit. So re-doing this and getting nozzle measurements this is the highest density I've seen off any machine with a brushroll.
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Post# 393539 , Reply# 114   6/19/2018 at 18:42 (2,138 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Yes the Royal beats out a Sentria in terms of pure flow, Bill has measured in 127 cfm for his sentria II and that's about what I got measuring an Avalir, As well as CFM Density. But Strangely my old Legend II narrowly beats it in flow (but not density) at 142.67.
This got me thinking the royal should have the advantage. It not only uses a higher wattage motor but i've heard their fans are deeper than Kirbys. Kirby is also running it's transmission off it's motor on current models. So why is it that the Royal doesn't vastly surpass Kirby? It's the airpath! A royal's airpath is narrower the bag tube tapers towards the base, has deep groves and i've always felt that a square or rectangular airpath negatively effects airflow. A Kirby's airpath is both wider and smoother There's a small different at the "bag horn" but the major difference is in the filltube it has a larger area to it and while it has groves all the way along it they are much less pronounced than the Royal's |
Post# 393586 , Reply# 115   6/20/2018 at 15:31 (2,137 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 393588 , Reply# 116   6/20/2018 at 16:25 (2,137 days old) by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 393589 , Reply# 117   6/20/2018 at 16:40 (2,137 days old) by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 393610 , Reply# 118   6/20/2018 at 18:49 (2,137 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Amps
The royal has more amps but kirby has more weight 32 to 20. The royal has a half inch bigger fan as well as. 1825 in bigger depth. Metal fan outweighs amodel fan. The kirby has a transmission im not sure that helps with power. The kirby vacuum seals around the rug nozzle alot better royal because nozzle is alot closer to the ground. The kirby has a belt lifter sealing the nozzle the royal has rubber cap bound to lose air. The emptor provides less resistance for airflow. The emptor connector kirby has is alot tighter in kirby. The kirby design is more effecient moving air. That is how it makes uo for less amps. The heritage weighs 24lbs. The royal is under 20. I was wondering if altitude would affect the motors. Oxygen level is lower in higher elevations. It affects humans cars etc. Vacuum a and b would have similar differences no matter altitude but it. Makes you wonder if sea levl compared to 5000 ft. How much power is lost. Just a few random thoughts. 6 |
Post# 393624 , Reply# 119   6/20/2018 at 20:48 (2,136 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)   |   | |
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Post# 393650 , Reply# 120   6/21/2018 at 12:52 (2,136 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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I own both, a late model 2011 Kirby Sentria with all of the improvements made to the Sentria II, and a 2008 10 Amp Royal Everlast 8300.
I did various types of fine dirt and sand pick up tests on my medium pile living room carpet using these two machines. I used 1/4 cup of dirt, sand and coffee grounds which I rubbed into the carpet. I used my Kirby G3 with Dirt Meter to measure results.
I will have to say that The Royal Everlast left visibly less dirt, sand and coffee on the Dirt Meter pads meaning that it picked up more than the Sentria did.
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Post# 393670 , Reply# 121   6/21/2018 at 19:27 (2,136 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Hmm I did replace the speed switch lever it runs at about 550 watts with the nozzle on removing the nozzle and manually depressing the switch it ran at about 550 on low and 750 on high Re-testing it confirming that it is indeed on low I got a figure of 129.48. Huh it must have really been stuck on high....How I managed to not notice this before is beyond me, I grew up with this vacuum.
Either way this makes the Royal the machine with the strongest nozzle flow Beating out the Eureka 4058 (6.5 amp) by 1.05 CFM |
Post# 393676 , Reply# 122   6/21/2018 at 21:18 (2,135 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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I have had classic, classic omega, classic ic 3 tradition heritage heritage 2 heritage 2 legend, g3 g4 g6 g diamond old emptor sentria new emotor sentria, royal 880 royal 1030z. I also have diamind. I have everything for avalir just no body.
Old kirbys 2 505s 598 3 510 2 560 561 2 562 a s7 4 d50 6 d80s. I have a riccar supralite 4 sanitare s677. I have a royal ry4001, shark navigator. Handvacs pa geier model 81, Douglas super bee, kirby vacuette legend w series, roal prince 591, I can double check my sentria buand g6 but with nozzle i swar it was 32 to 34 and omega thru legend 2 was 23 to 24 lbs. G series has transmission and i believe it wS 32 lbs. Ill doublr check i have no 16 inch nozxle kirbys prior to g se. Ill double check weight and post. I got weights from mailing quite a few machines but ill let you know my numbers. Les |
Post# 393677 , Reply# 123   6/21/2018 at 21:33 (2,135 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 393679 , Reply# 124   6/21/2018 at 21:43 (2,135 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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I don't see need to retest. The vacuum has high speed for hose. You want true test results not running on high wouldnt be true test.
Have you done tests on everlast. I hear last american made non commmercial royal. I have to watch a video on setup. Ive found anamometers and baird meters. Just rest of setup. I seen on vaclabs sentria 2 test i need to rewstch it. I wonder what my d80 would do. If I were a betting man id say low 100. I also believe royal 880 5.5 amp motor and d80 5. 5 amp motor are almost identical. I have a bag assembly for 505 to d80 run hepa bag improves airflow. I just need to get some tools. Les |
Post# 393680 , Reply# 125   6/21/2018 at 21:52 (2,135 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 393832 , Reply# 126   6/25/2018 at 09:22 (2,132 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Dyson DC40 mkII measurements
Nothing really surprising in the airflow, but power usage is totally different than the label says. It only uses around 800 watts. Label says 1100 watts! |
Post# 393843 , Reply# 127   6/25/2018 at 12:15 (2,132 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Commercial Kärcher upright.
Same as the Sebo BS36 and Windsor Versamatic Quite good results for this big and heavy 2-motor upright |
Post# 393855 , Reply# 128   6/25/2018 at 14:57 (2,132 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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Post# 393860 , Reply# 129   6/25/2018 at 15:58 (2,132 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 393900 , Reply# 130   6/26/2018 at 11:05 (2,131 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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One of the last vacuums from the "crazy days" of huge power usage in the EU.
Result was still more than I expected. |
Post# 394008 , Reply# 131   6/28/2018 at 14:41 (2,129 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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For classic Electrolux canister fans my Lux Royal D790 measurements.
I was very happy to the results :) |
Post# 396431 , Reply# 132   8/8/2018 at 13:54 (2,088 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)   |   | |
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I have a soft spot for 90s dirt devils but the nozzle performance on this is laughably bad. It's body to base connection is very much like a direct air machine so its very poorly sealed resulting in getting no pressure at the base as it all just leaks around the joints. I did include the "edge" cleaner as part of it's cleaning path it's airflow density would be just slightly better had I not but *shrugs*
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Post# 396471 , Reply# 133   8/8/2018 at 21:16 (2,087 days old) by CaptainSlow (Singapore)   |   | |
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Hi Mike, would like to know how did you make the ET1 run with the straight suction Miele? |
Post# 396477 , Reply# 134   8/8/2018 at 22:56 (2,087 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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