Thread Number: 34464  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Canisters that Agitate
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Post# 372750   5/27/2017 at 07:07 by Shrink1982 (Indianapolis)        

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Does anyone know why canister vacuums with a PN don't seem to agitate very well? For example, my Sebo D4 Premium has an excellent brush roll but it doesn't cause the carpet to vibrate the way the Kirby and Maytag 1200 do. There is a bit of agitation but nothing compare to the above mentioned machines. What is it that makes a vacuum agitate well? I know the obvious answer would be brush roll but I don't see anything special about the Maytag or Kirby brush roll. The Sebo has a really nice, stiff bristle brush roll and it would seem that would be excellent at grooming the carpet. Any thoughts are appreciated.




Post# 372751 , Reply# 1   5/27/2017 at 08:25 by suckolux (Yuba City, CA)        

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I honestly feel here a lot of that is the weight of the machine holding it against the rug, just my two cents, and its only a feeling

Post# 372752 , Reply# 2   5/27/2017 at 08:39 by electricbroom (Sunshine State USA)        

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I tend to agree it has to do with the weight or how much of it is placed over the cleaner head.

Post# 372754 , Reply# 3   5/27/2017 at 09:13 by dysonman1 (Rolla, Missouri)        

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Both the Maytag and Kirby have wheels directly behind the brush opening, that move up or down to set the height to the carpet. They keep the brush opening parallel with the rug. This allows the suction to 'lift' the rug slightly off the pad or floor, and thereby the brushes can 'beat' the carpet on a cushion of air. Old principal, very old.

The power nozzles must bring the brushes to the rug, since the nozzles don't all adjust the same as uprights, and the airflow is less strong compared to uprights like the Maytag or Kirby.


Post# 372761 , Reply# 4   5/27/2017 at 10:52 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
I concur with Tom

I also agree with David and James. The weight of the upright tends to hold the rug nozzle in contact with the carpet, whereas the lighter power nozzle tends to skim the surface.

Post# 372762 , Reply# 5   5/27/2017 at 11:54 by fan-of-fans (USA)        

I agree that it is because the PN has less weight than an upright and uprights tend to suction seal to the carpet, at least in case of fan before bag machines.

Post# 372777 , Reply# 6   5/27/2017 at 15:32 by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

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Tom has a point there. But, it doesn't just depend on how the brushroll is designed, but the design of the powerhead's base plate & how far the brushes extend out the bottom. Take the Wessell Werk EBK360 for example, it is one of the current powerheads with the best agitation on the market....look at how the brushroll & bottom plate are designed, & it's no coincidence.

There is also ways of adding weight to the powerhead so it digs down into carpeting more. The Wessell Werk powerheads use metal weights inside, as I am sure some other European powerheads do. And the current TriStar MG Series powerhead, as well as the previous TriStar CXL powerhead, both have a metal top that adds some weight. This would certainly help make the brush dig into the carpet more aggressively & clean better.

Rob


Post# 372804 , Reply# 7   5/28/2017 at 00:56 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Not only weight of the nozzle-but the uprights have a MORE powerful motor turning the brushroll.

Post# 372882 , Reply# 8   5/29/2017 at 18:24 by Tekjunkie28 (Roanoke Va)        

Take the hepa filter off and rainbow E2 black and it vibrates more. The issues is weight and direct air .

Post# 372883 , Reply# 9   5/29/2017 at 19:46 by dartman (Portland OR)        

My Royal/Starks 4650 will pull up the carpet and agitates pretty darned good. I see crumbs and things bouncing around as they get close to the power head. Obviously the weight advantage for an old school upright is a huge advantage.
We had Kirbys a few times as a kid and I remember them being loud, heavy, but working well and all the fancy attachments. I really like my Royal canister vacs but will probably pick up a Royal upright when money and a deal comes up. Why not, we have mostly carpets and a parrot who thinks his seeds and things must be dropped to the jungle floor to feed the little creatures below.


Post# 372904 , Reply# 10   5/30/2017 at 10:10 by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY)        

My grandmother has a Hoover Spirit with the QuadraFlex PowerMatic Head with the headlight and a metal brushroll with beater bars. That vibrates the carpet quite a bit. I know you guys were talking about modern canisters, and, on top of the lack of weight and airflow, most of the brushrolls seem to be wooden affairs with soft bristles and no beater bars. I feel like a brushroll they could put in there would be a Bissell brush roll. Minus the seizing caps, of course.

Post# 372975 , Reply# 11   5/31/2017 at 09:35 by Hooverkid (PA,USA)        
The answer is simple..

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And your totally right about the fact that Kirby and Maytag have fairly "normal" brush roll. The reason direct air uprights have such good agitation is because of their airflow. It's airflow not suction that lifts carpet off of the floor and then as the brush sweeps the carpet, the carpet is quickly pushed away from the nozzle and then snaps back and this is what actually is happening as the vacuum is agitating the carpet. Most clean air style vacuums don't make the amount of airflow needed for a lot of agitation and that's why machines like your canister produce less agitation.

Post# 372976 , Reply# 12   5/31/2017 at 09:42 by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I thought the brushroll vibrates the carpet which makes the dirt bounce out of the carpet. With good agitation you can see this happening ahead of the floor nozzle.

Canisters such as the Riccar Immaculate hae great agitation.


Post# 373037 , Reply# 13   5/31/2017 at 22:39 by compactc9guy (Bathurst New Brunswick Canada )        
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If you want a good power hrad my opinion iws to go back in time and go wht a metal Compact or Tristar puta vibra groomer 2 brushroll and man youve got a cleaning beast on your hand granted to use a micro filtration enviro care bag.On the modern side of thing Aerus or filter queen cant beat a metal canister. Heavy but built lieka tank.

Post# 373066 , Reply# 14   6/1/2017 at 13:03 by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
this leads to a question

Is whether a carpet has that groomed look directly related to how well a vacuum is removing the dirt from that carpet, or is that unrelated, and just makes the carpet look better? No doubt about it, cleaning carpets is more involved than cleaning hard floors.
Mike


Post# 373067 , Reply# 15   6/1/2017 at 13:15 by Mike811 (Finland)        
There is well agitating powerheads

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I made video of my full size powerheads (Wessel Werk EBK 340 & Electrolux Paragon) compared to the Kirby Gsix agitation. Kirby is better, but those powerheads will agitate quite well.
Wessel Werk EBK 340 is universal ph made for many different vacuum brands and Electrolux Paragon comes with the UltraOne and UltraFlex. I have UltraFlex.

Mike





Post# 373068 , Reply# 16   6/1/2017 at 13:39 by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Yes Wessel Week PNs agitate very well. The Miele 228 is made by Wessel Werk I think I'm not sure who makes the 236 but they both agitate very well. I've seen videos of the Riccar PN and that seems to agitate even better than the Mieles.

And yes you can get good agitation from a canister PN.


Post# 373225 , Reply# 17   6/4/2017 at 19:33 by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY)        
What about this one?

It's an old Eureka upright converted into a tandem air power nozzle for this Eureka canister. I imagine it would agitate the hell out of the carpet with that Dial-A-Nap and VibraGroomer!

First pic is nozzle

Second Pic is canister

Both are not mine, nozzle is luxflairguy's and canister is Kirbyveritbles'


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 373318 , Reply# 18   6/6/2017 at 09:40 by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
Wessel Werk Nozzles

Both the Miele 228 and 236 are made by Wessel Werk, the 228 is basically the EBK360 without the headlight, and the 236 is the same as the EBK340, they are modified to fit the Miele hose and electrical connections. Another great power nozzle is made by Lindhaus, it actually has 10 height settings.
Mike


Post# 373771 , Reply# 19   6/13/2017 at 08:16 by Shrink1982 (Indianapolis)        
Tolivac

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Tolivac, not all uprights spin the brush faster than canisters with a PN. There are canisters out there that have direct drive motors or toothed belts, such as Sebo, that turn very fast and don't get bogged down as vacuums with regular belts often do.

Post# 373801 , Reply# 20   6/13/2017 at 12:16 by Shrink1982 (Indianapolis)        

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The weight part makes some sense but I don't think that is all of it. I have seen vacuums on Ibaisaic that agitate very well while others do not and they may both be bypass uprights. I think all the perfect elements have to come together to create the best cleaning experience. It is the "gestalt" of the vacuum cleaner. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts meaning as the machine is built and designed it becomes something different altogether as agitation, suction and airflow as well as the design of the vacuum cumulate in a system that relies on all the other components to run properly. Getting that formula just right is not easy and one small change can recreate the whole.

I would like to quite my therapy practice as design vacuums for a living.


Post# 373852 , Reply# 21   6/14/2017 at 02:24 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I didn't say the uprights turn the roll faster-they just have a more powerful motor to do it-and the Volt is the only powernozzle I have that doesn't stall on the carpets as most of my other powernozzles do.The belts in them are still like new.IE-Kirby motor-6A vs 1.5-2A as most 120V powernozzles have.The Kirby brush doesn't stall unless the belt is worn or the height is set too low.




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