Thread Number: 25245
WHAT WOULD life be like with out bagless vacuum's |
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Post# 283707   6/8/2014 at 14:18 (3,610 days old) by citroenbx (england)   |   | |
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tell me what you think
p.s you can still buy new hoover junior's polartwintubs.co.uk/Hoover-Junior...
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Post# 283708 , Reply# 1   6/8/2014 at 14:28 (3,610 days old) by hi-loswitch98 ()   |   | |
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There would hardly be any vacuums in the Argos Catalogue :) |
Post# 283709 , Reply# 2   6/8/2014 at 14:41 (3,610 days old) by Gr8DaneDad ()   |   | |
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Those Hoover Juniors aren't new, they are refurbished units. Still great uprights, but not new. |
Post# 283711 , Reply# 3   6/8/2014 at 14:51 (3,610 days old) by citroenbx (england)   |   | |
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and would be made much better. Not all clog and fall apart in five min's
like dc41 all made to be thrown away
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Post# 283718 , Reply# 4   6/8/2014 at 16:29 (3,610 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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A few things to remember.
Vacuums are not the only things to decline in quality quite rapidly over the last few years. I think that the cheapo vacuums would be more reliable than they are now, purely because of the nasty, low efficiency cyclones in so many cheap cleaners that clogs and causes the machine to overheat. But I don't think the quality of vacuums would have been all that better. I also don't think Hoover would still be ruling the market. There is always going to be a popular brand. Hoover shot themselves in the foot with free flights and ruined the company themselves, forcing them to sell. That had very little to do with the bagless invasion and it happened so early into the bagless years. So, overall, I think cleaners would be slightly more reliable and higher performing, but I don't think the quality would be all that different to what we have now. Although, personally, I'd be a lot happier ;) |
Post# 283720 , Reply# 5   6/8/2014 at 16:37 (3,610 days old) by beko1987 (Stokenchurch, United Kingdom)   |   | |
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The new hoover Turbopower 8... |
Post# 283747 , Reply# 10   6/8/2014 at 22:20 (3,609 days old) by MikePdx ()   |   | |
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If they would bring those and remanufactured Hoover twin tub washing machines over here, I would be a happy, happy man. |
Post# 283767 , Reply# 11   6/9/2014 at 01:43 (3,609 days old) by citroenbx (england)   |   | |
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Post# 283769 , Reply# 12   6/9/2014 at 01:45 (3,609 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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Wal-Mart wouldn't have a vacuum isle!
If Dyson had never bought out his cyclonic technology in the 1980s, bags would rule the market! It would be lovely, product longevity would rise. They'd still be cheap vacuums, though! But if Dyson had no part in the vacuum market, fan-first cleaners could still be popular.who would be the company to take plastics from quality to beyond cheap? |
Post# 283782 , Reply# 15   6/9/2014 at 06:02 (3,609 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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"TTI have a lot to answer for with the cheap throwaway plastivac market, and whether Dyson came about or not, TTI may have ended up being the world leader in modern vacs"
Finally, something we agree on. Cheapo crappy vacs would have happened with or without Dyson's input, so I don't think we'd be looking at a more quality market without them. I don't necessarilly agree that product longevity would increase that much either. Whilst it's true that cheap bagged vacs would last longer than cheap bagless vacs, look back over the years - there have always been crap bagged vacs that didn't last very long (Goblin Housemaids, Commanders and Lasers, Regina Housekeepers etc) although not so much in the abundance of unreliable cleaners that we have now. The move to cheap, chinese made, products (vacuums or otherwise) was slightly inevitable and wouldn've happend with or without Dyson appearing on the market, although in contrast to that, I think Dyson have butchered the top end of the market asking top price for cheaply made machines. "most of these will flout the new EU rules for power consumption so could be discontinued without a replacement" I've noticed, Steve, that you're not exactly happy about the new EU legislation, despite it being proven with the new John and Lewis cleaners that there will still be very high performing machines with lower wattage. Not getting into a political debate, but feelings regarding the UK/Europe aside, the introduction of this legislation can only be seen as a good thing for the vacuum market. Perhaps you're letting your views on the current situation with the UK/EU debate cloud your judgement of the vacuum world? |
Post# 283783 , Reply# 16   6/9/2014 at 06:06 (3,609 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 283798 , Reply# 17   6/9/2014 at 09:18 (3,609 days old) by suctionselector (Leeds, England)   |   | |
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Post# 283803 , Reply# 18   6/9/2014 at 09:47 (3,609 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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Lest anyone forget, the most low quality, most horrible vacuums ever made were bagged machines. Does no one remember the Regina Housekeeper (in pink). The lowest of the low. Chinese cannot make a vacuum as poor as the American's did with the Regina. How about the terrible Dirt Devil that used type C bags. Horrible. They belched dust worse than any bagless cleaner ever did. One of my least favorite uprights ever, the Eureka Bravo series. They had never ending problems, belched dust, ruined their bearings, broke their fans, and generally lived no more than two years in the hands of the average consumer. Bravos were made in the USA.
Having lived through all of these machines, as an adult, I remember the never ending repairs. I think, based on the fact I've owned my own vac shop and have repaired vacuums for more than 30 years now, the quality of todays low priced cleaners has improved somewhat from 20 years ago. Bagged vacuums can be just as filthy as bagless (take a look at the trade-in room of any door to door vacuum distributor). It all depends upon how the average person takes care of them. Virtually no one takes care of their cleaners like collectors do. In that respect, what WE enjoy and think of as a 'good' vacuum is NOT what the general public wants or will buy. It's unfortunate, but true. |
Post# 283804 , Reply# 19   6/9/2014 at 09:52 (3,609 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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"TTI may have ended up being the world leader in modern vacs - how about that for a scary thought? TTI do not do quality. End of. "
Madabouthoovers: TTI builds vacuums to the retailer's specifications. Walmart, Target and Argos in the UK tell TTI they want cheap bagless vacuums that will last only 2-3 years so that the consumer will need to purchase a new vacuum every 2-3 years. TTI is very capable of manufacturing a quality well made vacuum. TTI does manufacture the All Metal Royal upright vacuums that are built to last a long time. So you see the blame actually goes to the large chain retail stores. |
Post# 283811 , Reply# 20   6/9/2014 at 10:25 (3,609 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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It is true that virtually nobody "treats vacuums the way collectors do," but at the same time teaching the general public that they no longer have to buy bags also leads owners into thinking they don't have to clean filters. This ideology of allowing the owner to become lazy isn't good at all. In turn it lets them believe that a big warranty cheaply priced vacuum is just as good as the old traditional bagged variety.
That's the reality, not the fantasy. |
Post# 283816 , Reply# 21   6/9/2014 at 10:51 (3,609 days old) by citroenbx (england)   |   | |
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Post# 283829 , Reply# 22   6/9/2014 at 11:22 (3,609 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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Without Dyson' s cyclonic action. We have rainbow and filter-queen for that. But remember HOOVER'S first attempt at bagless? They stuck a bagless tank on an Elite. Still a lot better than modern bagless, as long as the filter was kept clean! I own examples in Maroon, fusion purple, and transparent green. From there they would've became bypass, and from there would come the copycats!
Tom, you're right about the Regina housekeeper. But what other failures of vacuums came from American ingenuity? Not many. America is a lasting symbol of taking pride in your work and doing it right. Such a quality is hardly seen in products today. Anyone remember the Plymouth roadrunner, or the Ford pinto? Both were SUPER American, but had there faults. The Plymouth had so much power, it was known to TWIST it's chassis! The pinto is remembered for it's history of fuel tank explosions (should you ever find yourself in one, don't let somebody ram you in the back!). The American story is one of many successes and errors, let us not forget!
I hate to say it, but without Dyson there would be no Fantom! Could you imagine such a quality, Canadian built vacuum NEVER existing? |
Post# 283840 , Reply# 25   6/9/2014 at 12:00 (3,609 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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In the UK Argos and other franchises are not led by what the actual consumer wants in FLOORCARE. This is learnt very easily by watching The Apprentice on TV where new inventions that the teams have to put together in some of the tasks are sold to the board of directors in charge of companies such as Argos, John Lewis etc. All the big brands judge by sales first and foremost before they make their move.
After all, if consumers wanted bagged vacuums, Argos and Currys could sell ALL BRANDS concerned. But they only sell a few for cylinder vacs and very few for uprights. Oreck and SEBO are no longer sold at Argos or Currys because in general, the perception of both these high street franchises (and I hate to say it) aren't that premium. If a product exists already or offers something slightly new from the old then brands such as Currys, Argos and John Lewis may consider it. Or if it is a product from say, SEBO who are represented by John Lewis for example, then JL would normally "carry it" for a term to judge what the sales are like from a small representative figure. Argos and Currys are in no rush to sell bagged uprights. But by having advertising by Dyson and others in-store, it's a no brainer to see why. |
Post# 283847 , Reply# 27   6/9/2014 at 13:26 (3,609 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Yes but you're in the USA. You have more brands and models than we do in the UK. Marketing and sales are all very well, but the UK buyer wants cheap appliances. Argos and others have catered well for that niche, with virtually everything produced in China at cheap cost. Of course there is premium "made in China" products but they can be expensive to buy...
The premium end dominated by Miele just about gets sales in Argos, but they don't have the full line up and some models are based on older, heavier units that are also sold online with catalogues. Bosch, SEBO and Miele should, by all accounts be offered with different variants, as they are at our more premium high street franchise, John Lewis - but no other department store offers as many models. Since the average consumer takes home between £1200 to £2000 a month in wages, not much after the tax, the amenities and the cost of living can buy a mere appliance that will clean up after the household. The cheaper the better for most UK consumers and if they can afford premium, they will want a variety to choose from. |
Post# 283848 , Reply# 28   6/9/2014 at 13:27 (3,609 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Also, there is a hefty mark up on several, different floorcare brands - look at Oreck in the UK. Their uprights for the elderly market probably see sales but at £400 a piece, no thanks.
Miele vacs are also overpriced, helped along by the spin and marketing that Miele also provide. YOu can see the differences right across the board with independent sellers, Miele UK's website and the big box stores. |
Post# 283849 , Reply# 29   6/9/2014 at 13:33 (3,609 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)   |   | |
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NOBODY really does treat vacuums like collectors do. THey weren't 'made to collect', either. WE take care of things. A lot of people don't. How many times have you 'rescued a vacuum from the trash" to find a full bag or a broken belt, or a clogged filter, that's all that was wrong with them. For those who dare to touch trash vacs.
Look at the old metal Convertibles. Some were beaten to death. And, after careful work, could be brought back to life. It merely took longer for them to become disgusting because they were made so well in the first place. You can have for a plastic base Convertible and have it forever if you take proper care of it. Look at those old Royals, Kirbys, etc. They were/are workhorses. They'll last forever if properly cared for. I'm not bashing TTI.... not bowing down to them, either... another story, another time. Mr. Dick Pike (HOOVER Windtunnel fame) told me HIMSELF, in his own home, of the discussions/bullying with Walmart, etc. I stood in the factory where all of those HOOVER bags were made. The quality control was EXTRAORDINARY!!!!!!! How many people snap open a dirtcup, dump it, letting dust fly everywhere, and, then return it to the cleaner? How many people CANNOT properly change a HOOVER "C", "A" bag? i've been doing it all my life. Does dust "fly through my house'? No. It all comes down to: SOME people will never be happy. Some would rather be 'right' than happy. MY opinion about "How would the world be without bagless vacuums?" "BETTER". |
Post# 283853 , Reply# 30   6/9/2014 at 14:32 (3,609 days old) by Gr8DaneDad ()   |   | |
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sebo_fan, we are saying the same thing... ah the joys of English as spoken/used around the empire and former colonies.... none of it comes out quite the same.
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Post# 283883 , Reply# 31   6/9/2014 at 17:22 (3,609 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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We are saying the same thing - I just wish the UK got a lot more of the brands that the U.S have. In turn Miele in the U.S should sell far more accessories instead of "level pegging" machines with specific features and then pricing them accordingly.
These are the things that we collectors realise - you can custom build your own Miele Cat and Dog model and then sell it on if you wish - it just doesn't have to have the same graphics on the body to justify it! |
Post# 283947 , Reply# 34   6/10/2014 at 09:05 (3,608 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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I could not agree more with your statement John.
The truth is, nobody can say 100% truthfully what may have been if Mr. Dyson hadn't came out of the woodwork in 1993, but lets face it - we all here know enough about the vacuum cleaner industry to have a fair idea that things would be a hell of a lot better.
Even if you are of the very few who believe that bagless cleaners per se were a good invention, what they did to bagless cleaners by consequence outweighed any benefits in my opinion.
Aside from everything else, I truly believe that bagless vacuum cleaners killed the very few domestic dirty fan machines still available in the 1990s. That is purely my view and I have nothing to back it up, but there you go.
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Post# 283957 , Reply# 35   6/10/2014 at 11:12 (3,608 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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The UK does have quality machines - people just won't pay out for it.
Similarly with BMW. I'd rather not, to be honest. Yes, their cars are beautifully built, yes they're very fast but along with Porsche and MB, they're the most frequent stolen brands. I'd rather drive a Skoda, Kia, or any other brand that is going to provide reliable transport rather than a posh car. It is NOT the same with a posh vacuum cleaner - many owners won't think twice about dragging a Miele or equivalent expensive vacuum over hard floors and then past carpet frames. Apparently the wheels are tested for such durability and endurance tests. Pity the gloss finishes can't hide scrapes though. But as a BMW owner, you'd never dream about putting your BMW on rough terrain unless it is designed to do so, and even then you may need to pay out for any repairs incurred. As for Dyson - I don't lay blame there - sorry. Why? Because even SOME bagged vacuums are difficult to obtain spares for in later life- cue the Hoover Turbopower 2/3 brush rolls drama? You can talk all you want about "planned obsolescence," but it has nowt to do with Dyson being on the market. Brands like Hoover and others already played about with bagless vacuums well before Dyson came to market - enter the SMS shake out fabric bag. |
Post# 283966 , Reply# 36   6/10/2014 at 12:10 (3,608 days old) by electrikbroomgu (Rome, NY)   |   | |
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We still sell a ton of these used in shop and many customers prefer them over the Walmart bag less cheap stuff. One has to remember that these are both dirty air machines so after years of hard use they will leak some dust and they they can be rather noisy in higher amp versions. Picking up rocks and stones and paper clips and other hard items eventually does the fans in, especially on the Elites as the Bravos use a nylon fan that is pretty durable. If these machines are brought in for service every so often they seem to last for many years and we have hundreds of happy customers. The quality of motors is far superior to the current China units which take very little to burn out and 98% of the time those old 90's bearings can be brought back with quality grease. The attachments are also far better as they are often the same that was used on the canisters.
Overall I would say these 1990's machines from the USA are not really that bad unless in the hands of a real vacuum abuser! |
Post# 283975 , Reply# 37   6/10/2014 at 14:23 (3,608 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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A vac shop today still selling Elites and Bravos, as these machines are not only 20 years old now, but they were very loud and leaked dust terribly. The Hoover Elite's motor to switch connection was very poor. I cannot imagine that any Bravos are still cleaning people's homes today. The motors were never meant to last more than a few years.
My friend that bought my vacuum shop when I opened the world's only Vacuum Cleaner Museum at the Tacony Factory in St. James, reports that he never sees Bravos and Elites any longer. I never see them in the trade-in room of the Kirby and Rainbow sellers either. |
Post# 284013 , Reply# 40   6/10/2014 at 19:51 (3,607 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)   |   | |
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Post# 284043 , Reply# 42   6/11/2014 at 03:08 (3,607 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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That's what makes me laugh the most about bagless vacuums. Disposable paper bags were put in to make vacuums easier to empty and more hygenic, and then we took them away again and made them messy and dirty again? Talk about a step backward!
The Hoover Freedom uprights were a direct result of Hoover meeting with Dyson. Somebody in Hoover obviously saw something in Dyson's design and they wanted to get in there first, even if the result was a complete dust-leaking disaster. |
Post# 284077 , Reply# 44   6/11/2014 at 14:59 (3,607 days old) by citroenbx (england)   |   | |
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well said
there is a lot hoover products with this name Hoover Freedom |
Post# 284160 , Reply# 48   6/12/2014 at 03:34 (3,606 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 284210 , Reply# 49   6/12/2014 at 13:52 (3,606 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 284211 , Reply# 50   6/12/2014 at 13:58 (3,606 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 284212 , Reply# 51   6/12/2014 at 14:04 (3,606 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 284221 , Reply# 53   6/12/2014 at 15:02 (3,606 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well said DesertTortoise.
The only advantage I like about bagless vacs is when you have new carpets fitted. Seems a terrible waste on dust bags when all you're cleaning off is the top pile of a freshly laid carpet. Also with lots of daily pet hair that has to be cleaned up - bagless is more convenient. Most bagged vacuums tend to clog around the dust channel hole and wastes the rest of the bag. This is where I prefer top fill bags that actually do what they promise where the dust falls to the bottom of the dust bag and progressively fills up. |
Post# 284290 , Reply# 54   6/13/2014 at 00:44 (3,605 days old) by bnsd60m9200 (Akron OH)   |   | |
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what would life be like without bagless vacuums? less dusty.... i dont own a single vacuum newer than 1985, and all are bagged. whether that takes a paper bag, or a reusable bag (like my hoover swingette) or a dump bag on a kirby have a media to filter other than just a filter makes a big difference in dirt retention.
that being said just as many people back in the bagged era didnt know how to properly change bags either. out of all the bags ive used, the electrolux c is the most "idiot proof" thanks the the rubber condom that seals the dust in when removed. short of jumping on it, it very hard for a lux c bag to burp up it's contents. even properly changing a hoover c bag can be mess free if done correctly. i personally just due to the nature of only collection vintage machines will never own "bagless" and even if i collected newer, i cant stand how unsanitary and counter productive emptying a dust cup is on a bagless machine. if done correctly, its still very messy compared to taking out a full bag and tossing it, or even shaking the contents of a kirby dump bag onto a piece of paper and throwing it out. |
Post# 284300 , Reply# 55   6/13/2014 at 03:02 (3,605 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 284301 , Reply# 56   6/13/2014 at 03:44 (3,605 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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Launch of the first UK Dyson upright did actually take place in 1992 via the Great Universal Stores catalouges, although it was very much a product that sat on back order as production did not begin until very early in 1993. |
Post# 284302 , Reply# 57   6/13/2014 at 05:16 (3,605 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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And yet there was the Hoover Powerplus dust cup version of 1983/84
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Post# 284369 , Reply# 58   6/13/2014 at 11:32 (3,605 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 284381 , Reply# 60   6/13/2014 at 12:50 (3,605 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 284409 , Reply# 62   6/13/2014 at 16:07 (3,605 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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The dirt stayed in because the tube from the cleaner was higher up than the dirt full level. To empty, the cleaner pretty much had to be turned upside down. |
Post# 284411 , Reply# 63   6/13/2014 at 16:15 (3,605 days old) by DesertTortoise ()   |   | |
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So with an upright that fills the bag from the bottom, you have to invert the whole machine before removing the bag? Wow! |
Post# 284414 , Reply# 64   6/13/2014 at 16:54 (3,605 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well the tube from the Hoover Junior and Senior that holds the bag on would bend down, so you just had to carefully remove the bag to ensure no dust falls out. The Powerplus is the Senior-Ranger-updated model and Id imagine the fill tube was located at the top.
Im not sure when Hoover UK started to have top fill uprights, I know the Junior U1012 (another favourite of mine) had a top fill dust tube and that dates from 1976. Hoover's last updated Junior U1104 also had a top fill tube that sat with the Powerplus, range wise - those were the "last of the classic uprights" as Hoover called them before the Turbopower series took over in 1987, but even the Junior U1104 sold alongside that range. I am not sure if there are any modern uprights that are bottom fill now. Only one that I can think of that is bottom fill would be my Miele S162 Alternative stick vac and as far as I'm aware that still sells in other EU countries and the U.S |
Post# 284498 , Reply# 65   6/14/2014 at 00:48 (3,604 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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