Thread Number: 6053
The Kirby Challenge...
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Post# 67774   4/26/2009 at 19:18 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        

I was bored...........so I decided to do one of my "unofficial" tests with vacuums today.

I decided.......let's give my house the "Kirby Challenge"......you know that ridiculous test that Kirby salesmen do to show you how much dirt is left in your carpets from your "old" (and they stress the word OLD) vacuum.

So what I did was go over my carpets with the 2005 model Sanitaire S670 (which was the TOL cleaner in the blue-line that year). It's got the 7 amp motor and a ball-bearing VGII brushroll in it. I installed a new bag on Tuesday, and I've vacuumed with it 3 times (including the session today). So the machine was already at a disadvantage due to having a used bag.

I then went and installed a BRAND NEW bag in the Kirby G3. This isn't any ordinary G3 either.......it has a metal fan from a Classic series in it, and it truly is a BEAST of a Kirby. The airflow is so much that it will literally blow an aftermarket bag right off the exhaust horn if you try to suck up carpet fresh.

After vacuuming the carpet as normal with the Sanitaire, I then went VERY slowly over the entire house with the Generation 3. The brush was adjusted properly and groomed the carpet nicely. Height adjustment was set properly and all was well.

The pictures that follow are somewhat disturbing........forget the Kirby! Keep in mind it probably took me twice as long to vacuum with the Kirby since I was vacuuming so slowly with it. I'm actually SHOCKED at the amount of dirt in the Sanitaire......I didn't think my carpet ever got that dirty! And in only 3 vacuuming sessions?!

Before I get any flack from anyone, the test can't possibly get ANY fairer than this. This is the most real-world test I've ever done or have seen conducted in a realistic atmosphere.

This first picture shows the two machines side by side.






Post# 67775 , Reply# 1   4/26/2009 at 19:19 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        
Sanitaire Bag...

Keep in mind....this is from only 3 times vacuuming! I had no idea that much dirt accumulated in that short span!




Post# 67776 , Reply# 2   4/26/2009 at 19:20 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        
The Kirby Bag...

This was a brand spankin' new Micron Magic bag (hence the white fluffy liner). Installed seconds before using the machine. I'm not entirely convinced the filth in the bag isn't remnants from the vacuum torture tests that I used to put these machines from. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the grit in the bag is actually left from what's in the emptor.

Post# 67777 , Reply# 3   4/26/2009 at 19:21 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        
Bags side-by-side....

Here's a side-by-side comparison...

Post# 67778 , Reply# 4   4/26/2009 at 19:22 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        
And in the left corner.....

We have our winner! I don't think there's anything that can convince me otherwise. Considering a $600 vacuum gladly handed a $1600 vacuum it's ass on a silver platter...

When people ask me what they should buy, I never hesitate to suggest a Sanitaire. The commercial models aren't expensive and clean just as well as this TOL model does. I've never done a test tho to support my claims. Consider the test done. Results are in.....it's definitely a winner!




Post# 67786 , Reply# 5   4/26/2009 at 20:08 (4,046 days old) by electroluxxxx (Somewhere out there)        

electroluxxxx's profile picture
I have an older commercial Sanitaire blue line model and I love it. I have filled numerous bags with it and even when they were full the vacuum still had plenty of suction power.
I really like your tests and they definitely prove to be accurate


Post# 67791 , Reply# 6   4/26/2009 at 20:37 (4,046 days old) by hoover_elite_20 ()        
Your Sanitaire is sooooo pretty!

Do you have any videos of this?

Post# 67794 , Reply# 7   4/26/2009 at 20:45 (4,046 days old) by vintagehoover ()        

That's amazing...I can't wait for mine to arrive now!

Post# 67800 , Reply# 8   4/26/2009 at 21:00 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        
hoover_elite_20

I don't do videos anymore. I just did this particular comparison because I was both bored and curious.

The model I've got of the Sanitaire is verbatim comparable to the current line's S677D model. The current S670D has been dumbed down to lack the D shaped handle.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO tristar's LINK


Post# 67809 , Reply# 9   4/26/2009 at 21:33 (4,046 days old) by swingette ()        

That looks about right. Vibration always gets more embedded dirt. With the way the Eureka grabs the carpet, and with the slapping action of the brush strips on the VGII, dirt that airflow and sweeping miss starts coming up.

The VG I on the 677 is nice for pet hair issues, since you can substitute extra brushes for the beater bars.


Post# 67830 , Reply# 10   4/27/2009 at 03:19 (4,046 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I tried the Kirby Vs Sanitaire and my results were OPPOSITE--My Sanitaire picked up NOTHING but a few carpet fluffs and specks of dirt.the Kirby-G6 at that time picked up ALL KINDS of stuff-both with the bag(Filtrete type Kirby bag)and the Kirby dirtmeter.My Koblentz vacuums did better than my Sanitaires.A suggestion for your Kirby G3-go to the original fan these used--the "G" series machines WERE NOT designed to be used with the older Kirby style fans.That Sanitaire you have is very nice looking-better looking than the "plain Jane" models out today.I like Sanitaires-but my Kirbys performed better for me.and I can use the Kirbys with a hose-can't do that with the Sanitaires.Oh yes-my Royals also did better than my Sanitaires.I used the Sanitaires with shakeout bags and the F&G bags.The carpet in my house is very deep pile-put in when the house was built in 1972.the Sanitaires don't like the deep pile carpet.You can't adjust them high enough-that may be the problem.the Kirbys,Royals,and Koblentz have a wider range of floor nozzle height adjust.

Post# 67831 , Reply# 11   4/27/2009 at 07:46 (4,046 days old) by kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Well OK

kirbysthebest's profile picture
Now wait a few days then vacuum the next three days with the Kirby, then follow with your other machine once. I think Comparing three sessons to one is a little unfair. . .then again the "real world" test already had the hypothisis that Kirby would lose so you were able to support your data. In actuallity the machines are pretty well matched even with the G3 being disadvantaged having an older style fan.

Post# 67833 , Reply# 12   4/27/2009 at 08:43 (4,046 days old) by tristar ()        
I'm going to turn it around at the end of the week...

This coming weekend I'm going to turn the test around and see if the results reverse. I'll use the G3 during the week, and use the Sanitaire this weekend.

Just like this past week, I'll vacuum on Tuesday, Thursday, and again on Saturday. Same test-bed, should be similar results, right?

The carpet in this house is very dense, very deep pile carpet. A few other collectors have been here and also agree that it's a very difficult pile to clean. The depth of the pile coupled with the density of the nap pose a predicament that requires both airflow AND agitation to get the job done.

Saying that the G3 is "disadvantaged" due to the "older fan style" shows your blatant ignorance obviously. The "older fan style" actually moves a tremendous amount more air than the original fan did, especially when coupled with a higher speed motor like that in the Generation series. So much air in fact that if you put the machine in neutral on a hard floor with no bag attached, it will push itself. No joke. Swapping out the fan was originally going to be a "see if it can be done" thing, but wound up being one of those "Turn a man out of your vacuum" things. The vacuum works MUCH better with the metal vs. the Lexan or Kevlar fans.


Post# 67835 , Reply# 13   4/27/2009 at 09:08 (4,046 days old) by kenmore81 (Warwick, RI)        
I still think the Sanitare will do better

kenmore81's profile picture
I have done some tests with a convertible dustcup (like the Guardsman of today)and my aunts Kirby legend II back when I was younger. And the convertible had large amounts of dirt even reversing the roles and vacuuming with the hoover for a few days and then the kirby. both vacuums had a substantial amount of dirt bout the Convertible's dust cup always had more in it than the Kirby's bag did. However the kirby did seem to "suck" to the carpet more. Mabie it WAS the fact that the Hoover had the beater bars and the Kirby had just the brushes.Hmmm...


Post# 67836 , Reply# 14   4/27/2009 at 09:11 (4,046 days old) by kirbymodel2c (Nottingham, England)        

kirbymodel2c's profile picture
Ummm I've done a test as well and the kirby came out on top.
Aginst a Sanitaire well Electrolux as its named over here.

If you look at the bag theres no carpet fluff just grit.
That shows that the kirby is getting out the grit and not eatting the carpet.
But you atomatically said "is actually left from what's in the emptor"

Ummm right.

James


Post# 67842 , Reply# 15   4/27/2009 at 09:40 (4,046 days old) by kenmore81 (Warwick, RI)        
I didn't think about the emptor

kenmore81's profile picture
Your right James I know from experience that some dirt remains in the emptor when the abag id full or near full but I don't remember that much being left over. Just my 2 amp worth lol.
Kenny


Post# 67843 , Reply# 16   4/27/2009 at 09:55 (4,046 days old) by kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Well Gee I dunno

kirbysthebest's profile picture
I'm so blatently ignorant, I may not be able to figure out how to turn on the cumputar again.

Post# 67844 , Reply# 17   4/27/2009 at 10:04 (4,046 days old) by kenmore81 (Warwick, RI)        
Im not saying that..

kenmore81's profile picture
Kirby's dont work well Im just saying from what I have used in the past to compare. I have a DS 80 That knocks the pants off of my convertibles. Dont get all bent out of shape now lol. Its just apples and oranges.All depends on the situation,carped depth etc...
Ken


Post# 67845 , Reply# 18   4/27/2009 at 10:26 (4,046 days old) by vintagehoover ()        
But you atomatically said "is actually left from what&#

What Eric actually said was that {{he wouldn't be surprised}} if that dirt had been left in the emptor. He didn't say it WAS dirt from the emptor.

And I see we're back to this whole 'eating the carpet' thing...

'Today on Trisha - 'Traumatised: My non-Kirby vacuum ATE my carpet! Back after the break!'


Post# 67848 , Reply# 19   4/27/2009 at 11:22 (4,046 days old) by kirbymodel2c (Nottingham, England)        

kirbymodel2c's profile picture
And my point was he taking away the the fact that it picked up grit by saying "It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the grit in the is actually left from what's in the emptor."

Just because I touched a nerve with you no need no need to get sarcastic!!


Post# 67850 , Reply# 20   4/27/2009 at 12:07 (4,045 days old) by vintagehoover ()        

Touched a nerve with me?! Someone dares to suggest something might, perhaps, outperform a Kirby and all manner of hand-wringing and hysteria breaks loose!

So other cleaners "eat carpet"? Please show us some proof of that.


Post# 67851 , Reply# 21   4/27/2009 at 12:42 (4,045 days old) by kirbymodel2c (Nottingham, England)        

kirbymodel2c's profile picture
As I said touch a nerve!

James:-)


Post# 67852 , Reply# 22   4/27/2009 at 12:53 (4,045 days old) by vintagehoover ()        

Yup, that evidence seems pretty conclusive to me!

I rest my case!

Jack :)


Post# 67855 , Reply# 23   4/27/2009 at 13:30 (4,045 days old) by tristar ()        
Wow.......

And the Kirby nuts fall apart once again....

I'm not saying the Kirby is a bad vacuum guys.......it was the first one I collected, and I still swear by it.

Claiming that the Kevlar/Lexan fans will outperform the original metal fan *IS* ignorant. Do your homework. I'm not going to take back a claim of ignorance because it offended you.

I brought up the Emptor issue since the last time the Kirby was used was back in February when I still made videos. The last thing it picked up was coarse cat litter and aspen shavings. Considering that the majority of the "grit" in the bag was pulverized cat litter, it makes sense that it's entirely possible that some of the litter was left in the emptor. I forgot to clean it out before I started. Anyone who has ever used a Kirby for more than 5 minutes knows that heavier particles and small rocks will ALWAYS collect in the emptor. Particularly in the Generation 3-5 machines.

Speaking of "touching nerves" it seems that when the precious Kirby gets egg on it's face everyone loses their marbles.

Chill guys.......it's only a vacuum!


Post# 67856 , Reply# 24   4/27/2009 at 13:31 (4,045 days old) by ridgidvac ()        

If a Kirby had metal brush roll & beater bars it'd outclean a Sanitaire or Hoover Convertible. But a TriStar/Compact w/PN & VG roller OUTCLEANS ANYTHING! I've been using my 1985 Tristar w/VG2 & it outclened the Lux & FQ; it was fun when I had carpet but my 'new' house is all tile & vacing throw rugs ain't as fun as vacing wall/wall carpets. But using any canister vac is fine 4 bare floors (I use the FQ) since carpets aggravate my allergies; now they're only 1/2 as bad now w/tile floors + the FQs.

Post# 67857 , Reply# 25   4/27/2009 at 13:32 (4,045 days old) by tristar ()        

It probably also pays to note that there isn't any "carpet fluff" in the Sanitaire bag. I have a rough-coat collie and she's shedding right now.

In actuality, the only vacuum I've ever had a fluff problem was actually the Generation 3! When the carpet was new, I had to stop halfway through each room and pull the lint ball out of the fan.

Until I got the Sanitaire, it still had problems with "hairballs". Couple passes with a different vacuum and a full bag later and I haven't had the linty carpet issue anymore.

So you know......cut pile carpet will ALWAYS shed. It doesn't matter what vacuum you use....it's GOING to shed.


Post# 67860 , Reply# 26   4/27/2009 at 14:46 (4,045 days old) by kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
OH now I get it.

kirbysthebest's profile picture
It's the "Kirby Challenge" only if no one actually challenges research technique.

And though I did not say it, nor can I defend the remark "eats carpet"; I read it to mean the "GRIT" is not eating the carpet. Again I am pretty stupid so I can't really be for none to sure.


Post# 67861 , Reply# 27   4/27/2009 at 15:25 (4,045 days old) by tristar ()        
kirbysthebest...

Kindly bend over and remove whatever stick is stuck in your rectum...

Seriously lighten up. You've taken this whole thread as a blatant slam on Kirby. It isn't and wasn't designed to be, but you for some reason feel that it is.

The more you open your mouth, the worse you look. Besides blatant arrogance and disdain for this entire thread, nothing constructive, provocative, or remotely useful has come from any one of your posts.

The thread was created as a comparison. There's plenty of other threads on here with similar outcomes with different machines. Why is it that whenever a Hoover seems to "win a contest" that everyone applauds, but if the "lowly Eureka/Sanitaire" seems to win, everyone gets their panties in a twit? Perhaps you don't like to admit defeat? That's fine.....just be sure to put your head on straight before you go popping off at the mouth with flagrant disregard for the rest of the people on the forum. When you make remarks you can't later back up, it really, truly, makes you look stupid in front of your peers.

This test isn't over......I'll do it in reverse this week. We'll see in the end how valid the results actually are...


Post# 67862 , Reply# 28   4/27/2009 at 15:33 (4,045 days old) by kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Tristar

kirbysthebest's profile picture
I know from previous post of yours that you like to attack other posters in order to feel superior. This thread is no different from the one where you tore Brandon a new one because he was being too enthuisastic. May I suggest that your doctor up your meds so that you can learn to play nicer with others.

I don't give a rat's ass if your lowly anything beats anything else--once again I was only questioning your research technique. Which I still feel is flawed. I am sorry that you are too stuck on yourself to accept criticism of any kind that does not praise you.


I will now cease as It is apparent that you are the vacuumland king and must have the last word. I enjoyed coming to this site because I though people were nice and didn't resort to name calling. Apparently I was wrong.


Post# 67863 , Reply# 29   4/27/2009 at 15:42 (4,045 days old) by tristar ()        
Umm.......no......

I never actually "tore Brandon a new one". If you had ANY idea of what went on behind the scenes with that kid, you would have a COMPLETELY different attitude towards him. I know of no less than 4 other collectors he harrassed as well who also blocked his emails, IM's, etc. Unless you know the subject you refer to, it's best not to delve into it.

I am not the "King" of vacuumland. I perfer FACT, not heresay. If you make a statement that's just "heresay" or "rumour", then yes I will call you out on it. Anyone who prefers fact and truthful information will probably do the same thing. I don't really care if you agree or disagree with my tests, or anything else I do, just don't go around flagrantly bashing people because you don't like the topic being discussed.

I too will cease. Just stop with the whole finger-pointing and rumor spreading because you don't like the topic in the thread. Nobody made you read it anyway.

Have you ever put a metal fan into a Generation Kirby? Probably not. Ever replaced a Metal fan in an older Kirby with a plastic or Lexan fan? Again...probably not. If you had, and you'd bothered to do any sort of use yourself, you'd completely and totally understand where the claims of the metal fan being stronger come from. Check Youtube, there's a couple of people with G3's and G4's who have also done it. Ironically, their assessment agrees with mine.

All that *I* am asking is that YOU back up YOUR claims with FACT.

***I'm off my soapbox now...***


Post# 67871 , Reply# 30   4/27/2009 at 17:12 (4,045 days old) by hoover_elite_20 ()        
My two cents

Just from my experience I have found that Kirbys have lots of suction but not the agitation. I have compared many different Kirbys from the Sanitronic VII and classic through the Heritage II and G3 and G6. They clean very well but all have sort of poor brushrolls. They seem to just have lots of soft, fluffy bristles. The Kirbys would do better if they put a nice brushroll in them like the royal uprights, with brush stiffeners, and then they would beat a sanitaire. I once compared my Heritage II against my old and now sadly gone Eureka ESP with a VGII I put in it and it beat the kirby by far, because of the vibration. I'm not one of those "lowly Eureka/Sanitaire guys", and that is why. As a matter of fact, they top the Kirbys on my list.

Also on the matter of the fans, I can understand how one could think the G3 would be at a disadvantage, but really it isn't. Some people think just because there are 11 blades instead of 10 and when they turn on the vacuum the plastic fan makes the vacuum sound at a higher pitch that its working better, but no. The metal fan takes a bigger bite out of the air and has much larger blades with more surface area at a different pitch(pitch in this sentence meaning angle like airplane propeller pitch,though the metal fan does have a different sound), and thus moves more air. Also, the lower pitch(sound) of the motor means more load, and more load = more work, and more work = more air being moved, and load being the air, not the belt. When I put a plastic fan in my Classic I immediately found a degrade of performance. I still wish I could find another metal fan. *sigh*


Post# 67908 , Reply# 31   4/27/2009 at 22:29 (4,045 days old) by crevicetool (GA )        
One time I loaned out my Electrolux Olympia one...

What the heck does this have to do with anything????? I'm a gettin' to it. I have an Electrolux Olympia one that I found in the garbage in 1988. When it comes to that machine, I could be charged with vacuum abuse. - Anyway - I loaned it to someone who was moving, had a (whatever)$40.00 machine, and needed to do some above the floor cleaning. While it was loaned out, and since I don't use any of my restored machines for actual work, I have to say, the house didn't get vacuumed for about two weeks. Yuck! I know!

Then I came back from North Canton. Not the convention. A mini-meet the year prior. While there, I was given a Hoover Convertible. I'm not a Hoover expert AT ALL so, I can only say that it is medium blue, has a vinyl button-snap outer bag, no headlight, and a disappointingly short cord.

Will you please get to a point here?....

The Convertible needed to be cleaned up, and the Lux having been returned, I spent an evening doing a quick tune-up of the convertible. I used the Lux to help clean it. I put a new "C" bag in it, and went to try it out. I could not believe the crap that that Hoover got out of the carpet!!! I was so ashamed of the Lux. Then it occurred to me that I hadn't vacuumed in two weeks, wiped the sweat from my brow, and quickly did the three-square foot test that they taught us when I sold Electrolux. I vacuumed the test area very slowly like you did Eric, with the Hoover. Then I put fresh electrical tape on the Lux aftermarket hose and covered the same area. With a brand-new Arm and Hammer bag in the Lux, It did manage to pull still more dirt out. I was relieved - Whew!

That feeling didn't last long though. I then went and got the oldest, weakest machine I had at the time - my Lux model XII, with the (crude at best) rug tool. I have two NIB cloth bags for my Lux XXX, One Lux issued, one aftermarket. I put the orange aftermarket bag in the XII, clicked in a non-leaking "L" hose, and guess what? While very, very, little the XII managed to pull still more dirt.

Has anyone ever put their ear on the hose end/handle and then vacuumed? You can hear grit, (what I was taught to be the real carpet eater) hit the hose end. Admittedly, one looks pretty ridiculous vacuuming with an ear stuck to the hose, but you CAN hear the sand/grit. Try it. I did that with the XII, and heard grit.

So, now what? Three distinctly different machine types, covering the center portion of the last century from the mid-1930's then the late sixties, and finally, the eighties. All pulled some amount of dirt after the other. Starting with the most powerful to the weakest. Beater bar, brush only PN4, then a hunk of metal with a slot cut in the bottom of it.

Eric, the cut-open bag from the Sanitaire is that a piece of Easter basket grass? I hate that stuff! It's as bad as tinsel at Christmas time.

Long-winded I know. Just wanted to share my experience. Perhaps no one's machine is any better or worse than anyone Else's. Perhaps it's a matter of preference. What works best for the situation, the user, etc.

Rick



Post# 67912 , Reply# 32   4/27/2009 at 23:21 (4,045 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)        
Matter is neither created nor destroyed..it is converted.

aeoliandave's profile picture
As soon as I'm finished the housework I have to start all over again - the Housewive's Lament. Or Househusband, if you prefer...Houseperson has no snappy ring to it at all. :-)

If one's preferred vacuum cleaner cleans up debris as effectively as we can determine, then why, oh why do we vacuum every week if not every - or several times a - day? Because we know at an instinctive level that the job is never done...and we like to play with vacuums. You know...FUN!

Thank you Rick, for stepping back and reminding us all that this is a dirty world. This and similar fascinating and amusing but ultimately inconclusive discussions - they are discussion, right? Not debates? - simply and effectively points out that we, as collectors and enthusiasts, will never run out of the raw material for which our machines were conceived, built and developed...to manage, contain and disperse the changing decade's industrial and domestic substances, and can happily continue to vacuum as often or as infrequently as we desire. We'll always get some result.

Have 2 vacuums or 500, whichever suits your purpose and passion. Collect the full lineup of one Brandname or strive to run the gamut and cover the feild. Prefer new plastic over vintage metal? Fine by me. All will do the task they were cleverly designed for to the very best of their ability. Save the Whales...collect the whole set!

But as surely as hair grows 1/4" per month, the sun rises and sets and our buildings, cars and ourselves steadily convert to dustmotes every nanosecond that ticks by, the last vacuum cleaner running will always be the winner. That's a sure bet.

...Until someone turns on the next vacuum cleaner waiting in line to fight the War on Filth. :-)

Dave



Post# 67915 , Reply# 33   4/28/2009 at 00:45 (4,045 days old) by tristar ()        

Rick and Dave speak a lot of truth in their posts. I'm glad the thread got back into a discussion! I agree with what Dave said though that every machine will do the best job they can according to their design. Some just work better than others.

Half the fun is trying them out to see what works best for you right? I mean that is why we collect so many different makes and models right? Hopefully I'm not alone in that assumption...

The original purpose of this thread was designed to be an experiment. You always see the Kirby demonstration where the Kirby goes last and pulls up a massive amount of filth, grit, sand, and lint. That's over a small area of the rug too, not the entire house. The results of my testing was done over the entire house! I honestly expected more from the Kirby. Hence my shock and disbelief.

My original point was that this is one of those examples where the last vacuum to go didn't necessarily come out on top. On Saturday, I'll reverse the experiment and make the Sanitaire go last. If the theory goes properly, the Sanitaire shouldn't pick up anymore than the Kirby did right? I, for one, am interested to see if my hypothesis holds true.


Post# 67920 , Reply# 34   4/28/2009 at 02:49 (4,045 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

WOW-Guess i will have to dig my Sanitaires out and try some more.
On the fan issue I asked a former Kirby dist servicecenter out here about that question of the metal fans in the newer Kirby "G" series machines and his concern was that the larger metal fan blades could overload the motor esp in the hose mode when the motor runs at a higher speed.Yes the metal blades are larger for use with the older Kirby motors that ran slower.Does sound like an interesting experiment though-will have to see if I can find some metal fans.I too prefer them-they do last longer.However I don't think I would want to use the metal fan in the later "G" machines-G6 and later.these have the domed Mini Emptor bag boot as opposed to the flat domed one on the G3,G4,G5 machines.The domed one does allow for more air movement-and the NASA designed tapered blade fan.the test I did with the Sanitare was with the G6-there is a difference.
and when I do my vacuum tests-I too use the machine to do the whole house .


Post# 67933 , Reply# 35   4/28/2009 at 10:47 (4,045 days old) by tristar ()        
Metal Fans...

I've heard issues people have had with metal fans in the newer Kirbys (G5 and later) due to the fan rubbing the back of the fan chamber. I'm assuming something changed in the design between the G4 and G5 when they introduced the Kevlar fan!

While the blades are larger on the metal fans, and the motor DOES run slower with the metal fan installed vs. the plastic fan, I haven't seen any evidence of the motor being overloaded in either mode. That was a concern of mine at first too! When plugged into a wattmeter, the machine doesn't pull any excessive current beyond what it is rated. When running, it does pull about 20-30w more than it does with the plastic fan, but still safely below the rating plate.


Post# 67937 , Reply# 36   4/28/2009 at 11:27 (4,045 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Eric,

For us Kirby buffs, this is a tough pill to swallow. But if what you say is true (and I can neither confirm or deny this) could you do a waterlift test of a Kirby Generation 3 with a Kevlar fan vs. one with a metal fan? That way, we could all see just how much using a metal fan improves the performance of the machine.


Post# 67948 , Reply# 37   4/28/2009 at 12:53 (4,044 days old) by tristar ()        
I can do that...

I have the Kevlar fan at the house for it. I'll stick it in there and do a comparison. I don't know that the water lift will change much, but the airflow is a TREMENDOUS difference. It's one of those things you have to witness yourself to understand.

I have the gauge and the tools to do the comparison. I'll do it this evening.

Keep in mind......the Kirbys don't have much water lift. They're all about airflow....and lots of it.


Post# 67953 , Reply# 38   4/28/2009 at 13:49 (4,044 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

If you could, that would be super. I would think if there's a change in airflow, there's gotta be one in water lift as well. I have the Baird Air Flow meter for Kirby, but it already pulls a 10 with the Kevlar fan. And this way, we can all see what a difference a metal impeller makes.

Post# 67954 , Reply# 39   4/28/2009 at 14:01 (4,044 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
Royal fan?

Hey, Eric. What would happen if you could fit our Royal Everlast fans on a Kirby?....Bill in Az....

Post# 67955 , Reply# 40   4/28/2009 at 14:04 (4,044 days old) by tristar ()        

A Royal fan won't fit a Kirby. They have a different shaft size, thread, and depth of the blades. It simply won't fit the fan chamber!

Post# 67956 , Reply# 41   4/28/2009 at 14:11 (4,044 days old) by animasinsulin ()        
My G4

When I bought my G4 at a Goodwill, in the emptor thing was bent screws, a mangled dime, shared glass. How can a lexan fan do that kind of damage? I checked the fan and it still looks new.....Bill in Az....

Post# 67959 , Reply# 42   4/28/2009 at 14:43 (4,044 days old) by vacuumfreeeke ()        

I am glad you are going to do a retest. I also thought upon first reading this that the original test could in no way be called fair since the Sanitaire had been used more than the Kirby. Both fine looking machines, though.

Post# 67962 , Reply# 43   4/28/2009 at 15:00 (4,044 days old) by tristar ()        
Retest...

I'm not doing a retest. I'm doing a continuation of the test, but in reverse.

If anything, using the Sanitaire more gave the Kirby an advantage since the F&G bags clog a LOT quicker than the Kirby bags do.

The pictures weren't designed to illustrate that the Sanitaire picked up more. It was designed to show how much filth was actually picked up in 3 days and how little was actually left behind.

This seems to be a hard concept for a lot of people to follow. This isn't that complicated.

If you have a problem with the test, do one yourself! Document it. Just be FAIR about it. Repeat the same circumstances and don't purposely mangle one machine just because you don't like it or WANT it to lose.


Post# 67998 , Reply# 44   4/28/2009 at 22:41 (4,044 days old) by tristar ()        
Water Lift Results...

So here's the results of the Kirby Generation 3 with the Metal fan vs. the Kevlar fan:

Kevlar Fan: 24" of water

Metal fan: 36" of water

The lift reading of the Kevlar fan Kirby was confirmed by another friend of mine who has the same machine and a vacuum gauge.

Result: The Metal fan DOES increase suction. 12" of water is nothing to scoff at for a dirt-fan machine.

Below is a picture of the vacuum gauge with the metal fan in the Kirby.




Post# 68135 , Reply# 45   5/1/2009 at 04:35 (4,042 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

That is interesting about your G3 and the metal fan-sure shows the diffrence as read on your meter.Guess we can put to rest about overloading the motor as the Kirby dist showed when i asked him about the metal vs lexan fan several years ago.You do get about 50% increase.Nothing to scoff at.Kirby should go back to the metal fans!And your wattmeter test shows the motor current draw is within tolerence.Sounds like a good improvement.Eureka is going to different bags for the Sanitaire uprights-they are phasing out the F&G bag system.They are going to Filtrete bags too.I beleive it was an S&P bag is what they use on new Saintaire machines.The outer bag has a rigid fill tube like the Royal "B" bag system and the Kirby bag system.

Post# 68136 , Reply# 46   5/1/2009 at 04:39 (4,042 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

The new Eureka bag system is "ST".Wonder if the newer ST outer bags can be used on older Eurika machines.Would be interesting to try.

Post# 68139 , Reply# 47   5/1/2009 at 08:05 (4,042 days old) by vac-o-matic (Saint Louis, Mo.)        
Conversion Kit

My buddy Phillip (Kirbyvertibles) gave me a conversion kit for my birthday last year so I could use the filtrete bags on my mom's Eureka which is often my daily driver. It works great, and I believe it just pops into the original tube. It definitely made it quieter, as it has just the vinyl outside bag, but what a difference in filtration! I have a lab that sheds 24/7 and even with a spa day every six weeks, still manages to smell like a dog. I was using the pet Arm and Hammer F & G bags but they seemed to cut the airflow a little. The conversion kit and the Sanitaire ST bags have been a blessing! Thanks again Phillip!

Post# 68169 , Reply# 48   5/1/2009 at 18:28 (4,041 days old) by tristar ()        

One of these days I'll find the conversion kit for the F&G style machines so I can try out the ST bags. They seem like they'd probably work a bit better since they're actually the cloth bags. That's my biggest gripe about the F&G style is how FAST they clog up! Even the filteraire bags are a pain with clogging.

Post# 68171 , Reply# 49   5/1/2009 at 19:16 (4,041 days old) by ridgidvac ()        
Conversion kit for F & G bag system

I'm happy 4 the conversion kit b/c it's a pain 2 change the Eureka F & G bag, but with the new ST bag converter things WILL be easier when I need to change bags.

About which vac is the best carpet vac, it depends on type of dirt being vacuumed & style of carpet pile, etc.


Post# 68214 , Reply# 50   5/2/2009 at 05:14 (4,041 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

The gripes I have about the F&G bags is the awkward way they go onsometimes you tear the paper bag feed tube while putting it on the main bags tube.Also on some F&G bags the feed tube rips unexpectedly causing a mess in your cleaners main cloth bag.This happens when I use F&G bags in my Royals that use "A" bags.And if you are not careful in putting the band over the paper feed tube-the area there can leak.Sometimes the paper tube clogs.Glad to see the F&G system phased out-guess it was the earliest top fill disposable bag system.I have one of the conversion outer bags for a Kirby-got it in a box of Kirby parts from a former Kirby dealer.The retrofit system cuts down the performance of the Kirby greatly-would NOT reccomend it.Tried it on a Dual 80 Kirby.Disappointing results.Beleive the bag was made by DG or whatever they are-the outfit that makes most aftermarket bags.Don't know why the Kirby dealer had it-maybe it was on a customers machine.

Post# 68223 , Reply# 51   5/2/2009 at 08:52 (4,041 days old) by tristar ()        

I've never had any of the problems you describe with the F&G bags, however I did once have a stick launched through the filltube. THAT made a mess....

Compared to the Hoover Type-C setup, the F&G bag is a CAKEWALK to change! At least you're not trying to keep all the dirt and mess from going everywhere in the process!


BTW, I'm about to do the final vacuuming for this week to round off this test. Results should be in somewhat shortly.


Post# 68236 , Reply# 52   5/2/2009 at 11:57 (4,041 days old) by ohio_tuec ()        

Forgive me for not saying it sooner, but thank you Eric for doing the waterlift test. Clearly, a metal fan DOES make a dramatic difference. In regards to the bag setup, Eureka was ahead of Hoover by leaps and bounds. It's a wonder they kept the "Type C" setup as long as they did. I use an F&G bag in my Hoover 61, which makes changing it so much more convenient.

Post# 68322 , Reply# 53   5/3/2009 at 00:18 (4,040 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Heres how to deal with the Hoover "C" bags for replacing a full one-learned it from Bill at the Vacuum Cleaner Hospital out here-Turn the machine upside down and support the front of the floor nozzle on the workbench,counter or table top.open the zipper on the outer bag and take out the full C bag.Now-turn the machine back right side up and put on the new empty C bag-its quite easy once you try this.I can do this while holding the machine against the bench with my body and using my hands to change the bag.Try it and you will see-easier and no mess.

Post# 68323 , Reply# 54   5/3/2009 at 00:22 (4,040 days old) by tristar ()        

I had my own method for the Type C's. I would lay the handle down and pick up the front and shake all the crap towards the handle. Then remove the entire bag from the machine and hold it upside down and take it to the trash. No acrobatics required to hold the machine in position and it was a lot easier to reinstall the bag when done!

Post# 68324 , Reply# 55   5/3/2009 at 00:23 (4,040 days old) by tristar ()        
So here's the results...

So here are the long awaited results. God this house gets NASTY during a week!

Here is the Kirby bag. Keep in mind, this is the souped up Generation 3 with the metal fan. I've used it 3 times this week on the same days that I vacuumed with the Sanitaire last week. Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Here's the mess it got. Notice the hair? Sophie's started throwing her coat for summer...




Post# 68325 , Reply# 56   5/3/2009 at 00:25 (4,040 days old) by tristar ()        
Now for the Sanitaire's bag...

Remember.......this is the SAME test run in reverse from last week. If everyone's claims were right, the Kirby and the Sanitaire should have about the same amount of crud in their bags in the "they went last" run right?

For perfect clarification.......

This week the Sanitaire went last only on the very last day. The Kirby has been used 3x this week ONLY. New bags were in both in the beginning.

Last week the Kirby went last on the very last day. The Sanitaire was used 3x last week ONLY. New bags were in both at the beginning.

So......here's what the Sanitaire got up chasing the Kirby....




Post# 68326 , Reply# 57   5/3/2009 at 00:27 (4,040 days old) by tristar ()        
Meh you say....

Scroll up and look at the Kirby bag from last week's run for a very good comparison as to what I'm talking about here. The Sanitaire pulled a massive amount of dirt from this carpet! FAR more than the Kirby ever dreamed of last week! There's fur, dirt, dust, and a LOT of grit.... See below for a better picture of how much grit we're talking about. That's at least twice (if not more) than the Kirby grabbed last week...




Post# 68327 , Reply# 58   5/3/2009 at 00:27 (4,040 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Can we call the match between Kirby and Sanitiare a "Draw"looks like they both picked up about the same amount of stuff.Both of yours are good machines.Was an interesting test.

Post# 68328 , Reply# 59   5/3/2009 at 00:28 (4,040 days old) by tristar ()        
And of course the compulsory side-by-side...

And here's the 3 day Kirby bag next to the one-use Sanitaire bag. Just like the first go round with the Sanitaire being used first.




Post# 68329 , Reply# 60   5/3/2009 at 00:36 (4,040 days old) by tristar ()        

No.......this was NOT a draw........

Here is a Photoshop side by side of the Kirby vs the Sanitaire.

On the left is the Sanitaire bag from today. Used once after the Kirby was used for 3 days.

On the right is the Kirby bag from last Saturday. It was used once after the Sanitaire had been used for 3 days.

There's no draw about it.....the Sanitaire CLEARLY picked up far more litter than the Kirby. In both circumstances. Considering that this Kirby is far more powerful than pretty much any other Kirby out there, that says a lot. The Sanitaire is nothing more than a run-of-the-mill 7 amp model for all practical purposes....






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