|
Thread Number: 40571
/ Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
My 50-year-old HVAC system gives up the ghost |
[Down to Last] |  |
| Post# 430927 8/29/2020 at 12:48 (1,334 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
So this week when I cleaned the filter on my furnace, which is also the air handler for the air conditioner, I noticed an excessive amount of condensation dripping down and subsequently noticed the engineered wood floor starting to curl up in the hallway. As is usually the case in hot weather, it took about three days to get a service technician out to the house and what he found was pretty depressing.
The condensation problem has been happening for a long time and the gas furnace is rusted out to the point that it would be dangerous to operate this winter so I was faced with three choices: patch it up with no guarantee of how long it would last, replace just the furnace with a five-year warranty or spend a bit more and replace the whole system for about $7,000 and get a ten-year warranty. Considering the lack of longevity for modern HVAC systems, I chose the latter option. They'll be back Monday to install it. On the one hand, I can't be too disappointed because this Singer system is original to the house, which was built in 1970. Fifty years is a good, long run for any system and I have no illusions that the new system will last anywhere near that long and in that respect, I just hate the idea of getting on the replacement merry-go-round every 10-12 years. But hey, that's reality in the twenty-first century. Nothing's built to last. Of course, I've still got to do something about the floor in the hallway. After the expense of the HVAC system, I'm tempted to cheap out and put carpet down over it. | ||
| Post# 430928 , Reply# 1 8/29/2020 at 12:59 (1,334 days old) by fan-of-fans (USA) | ||
 | ||
| Post# 430930 , Reply# 2 8/29/2020 at 13:43 (1,334 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Ask and you shall receive. The sheet metal on the furnace is a greenish gray or grayish green, depending on how you want to look at it. They sure don't make 'em like this anymore. I'll be sad to see it go. The stainless steel mixing bowl is not standard equiment but it's exactly the right size and shape to catch the drips coming out of the flue.
| ||
| Post# 430932 , Reply# 3 8/29/2020 at 14:00 (1,334 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 430940 , Reply# 5 8/29/2020 at 15:56 (1,334 days old) by fan-of-fans (USA) | ||
|
Those old units really lasted. My parents house still had the original Fedders electric heat/AC system from 1976 when they moved in. It was weird because it had two compressors inside the unit, instead of one. I think one of the compressors went bad, so they had the repairman set it up to use one and then they ended up replacing it a few years later. They're on their second replacement system now.
One tip I'd suggest, is after the compressor unit is installed outside, give the cabinet a good coat of automotive wax. That'll keep it looking new and prevent rusting and paint fading from the sun. | ||
| Post# 430941 , Reply# 6 8/29/2020 at 16:01 (1,334 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Yes, I am quite irritated over the damage to the flooring. What tipped me off was I found a wet piece of paper on the floor in the hallway where there shouldn't have been any water. It is actually seeping up between the seams in spots. The house is on a concrete slab so there's nowhere for the water to go. Once the new system is in and I know no new water is coming down, I'm going to go over the the floor with my wet/dry vac to see how much water I can suck out of there. I'm not going to do anything about replacing the floor right away. I'm just going to let it dry out for at least a month or two and see what happens. Meanwhile, I'll be pricing flooring and carpet and coming up with affordable solution while I wait for my bank account to recover from the cost of the HVAC system.
| ||
| Post# 430957 , Reply# 9 8/29/2020 at 19:17 (1,334 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 430981 , Reply# 11 8/30/2020 at 02:27 (1,334 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA) | ||
'Engineered hardwood' is marketing-speak for 'particle board with a wood veneer glued to it.' Particle board does not like water, as anybody who's had Kmart furniture in a basement will tell you. I'd never put that crap in my house.
New systems aren't really all that bad. My Goodman furnace lasted a good 8 years, needing only a new inducer fan once, but we moved after that, so probably longer. Kept the A/C condenser unit, that's gotta be going on 12 years now. It's been acting up lately, but that's just because it probably leaked a bit of charge, that and that it's coupled to an ancient evaporator core that's completely wrong for it. The furnace in my current house is from the 80s, maybe late 90s. My dad keeps saying we should buy a new one just in case - maybe he's right - but all the problems it's had have been stupid little things that any furnace will need in its operating life. Especially considering it's been operating for 30-40 years! Incidentally, it kindof needed an inducer motor, but I found it had ball bearings, so I just replaced them. It did NOT need a fan motor, but my dad went and bought one anyway, so that's new. It needed a control board, but I just resoldered some broken joints, and it's fine (and I literally had it fixed within one hour of discovering it stopped working lol). And it always used to make this shrill metallic rattle whenever the fan was running. This current summer, with the A/C problems we've had, I had it in pieces and I found out the heat exchanger pipes were wiggling around in their holders. I filled the holders with high temp RTV silicone, it's completely silent now. Point being, any furnace requires maintenance, old or new. | ||
| Post# 430993 , Reply# 13 8/30/2020 at 11:42 (1,333 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
I'm sure the flooring isn't of the best quality. It was in place when I bought the house, doubtless put down to help sell it. It's kind of like that the used car salesmen say--Bondo and paint makes it look like what it ain't.
Yes, the expense is irritating and the ten-year warranty means the it's designed to last for eleven so I get to pay full freight again on the next one too. Meanwhile, maybe I can recoup some of the cost through reduced utility bills but I'm not counting those chickens yet. I was promised the same thing by the guy who sold me my vinyl replacement windows but that definitely didn't materialize. | ||
Post# 431007 , Reply# 15 8/30/2020 at 17:37 (1,333 days old) by vacuumlad1650  (Wauponsee, IL) |
||
"Ford radiator" now what you need there Is a reputable radiator shop! We have had one in the Chicagoland area for many years, Rex radiator. They have probably done 200 radiators for us through the years. They recored the radiator on my International scout most recently...at a fraction of the cost of a replacement that may only last 5 years.
It's a shame the Singer system finally.let go. I saw a house in my adventures househunting that had a full singer system still operating, although the air conditioning unit outside the house sounded awful | ||
| Post# 431008 , Reply# 16 8/30/2020 at 18:33 (1,333 days old) by kirby519 (Wisconsin) | ||
|
The shop was recommended by someone I have done business with for years. Thankfully that problem child is no longer my problem. | ||
| Post# 431010 , Reply# 17 8/30/2020 at 19:58 (1,333 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
The Singer is still running, at least for tonight. The top of the furnace is just so rusted out that it would be unsafe to operate this winter and I don't want to monoxide myself or my cats. When I bought the house in 2014, it still even had the original Singer thermostat. That broke almost immediately and I replaced it with a programmable Honeywell unit. I do not plan to let them scrap that, especially if the new system, comes with a lesser thermostat.
I had a funny experience with a radiator rebuild when I was in college back in the '80s. I took my car to the Kmart Auto Center that was next door to campus and they sent the radiator out to a shop in town. When I picked the car up, the receipt from the radiator shop was attached to the Kmart Auto Center invoice and showed the discount they had given Kmart. Not only did Kmart not mark up the cost of the repair, the discount from the radiator shop was greater than the labor Kmart charged to remove and install the radiator. The repair was good. I kept the car three more years and had no further problem with it. | ||
| Post# 431015 , Reply# 18 8/30/2020 at 20:53 (1,333 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA) | ||
|
| ||
|
Post# 431016 , Reply# 19 8/30/2020 at 21:08 (1,333 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
||
I had oil steam | ||
| Post# 431041 , Reply# 21 8/31/2020 at 08:12 (1,332 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
They're on the way...
I just got a call from the HVAC guys and they're en route. I'm almost surprised in a way that they didn't show up at some ungodly early hour. I checked the weather earlier and it looks like it's only going to top out in the upper 70s, maybe 80 today so it'll be an okay day to go without A/C. Of course, the flip side of the coin is it's going to be rainy and I'm sure they'll need me to move my less-than-weather tight convertible out from under the carport so they can access the back yard. Guess I'll be parking it on the street and pulling the cover over it. No big deal. Now, corralling the cats and locking them in my bedroom all day, that's going to be a bigger deal—at least for them.
| ||
| Post# 431043 , Reply# 22 8/31/2020 at 09:48 (1,332 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Out with the old...
The old Singer system has breathed its last and is out the door. The new one is now being installed. It's a Rheem system and I was disappointed to see the Energy Guide sticker on the carton for the furnace showed it to be rated "least efficient". Oh well, they've kind of got me over a barrel at this point. Hopefully the air conditioner will make up the difference. That was the real energy hog on the old system.
| ||
| Post# 431064 , Reply# 24 8/31/2020 at 16:39 (1,332 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
The system is in. I was mistaken earlier. The system is a Ruud, manufactured by Rheem. So far, it's a lot quieter than the old Singer. All I hear is the rushing of air through the vents, not the mechanicals in the closet. Hopefully, it will be more energy efficient. They re-used the original ductwork but everything else is brand new, except the thermostat, which I had replaced a few years ago. Quite coincidentally, I got an email from the power company today, offering a $300 rebate on a new HVAC system, so that was a welcome development. And yes, I did save the American Furnace Company badge off of the furnace but the Singer badge was long gone from the air conditioner before I ever bought the house.
| ||
| Post# 431076 , Reply# 25 8/31/2020 at 22:25 (1,332 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
Multiple
In Utah or any house with a basement has for inch concrete.
If anyone is saying engineered wood is cheap fiberboard. They get the wood overlapping directions. They do this by using polarities of ions. I have engineered hardwood in my basement with a 60 year warranty. It was the longest warranty available. I joists are engineered wood. They hold the weight of the whole house. I hope this helps with the misconception of engineered flooring. Les | ||
| Post# 431086 , Reply# 27 9/1/2020 at 03:17 (1,331 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA) | ||
|
LVL beams are very strong, but just like the floor boards, don't get them wet. Most engineered hardwood really is just MDF particle board. I'm sure there are some nicer ones that are more like plywood. And they probably use some kind of alchemy on others to make them more water-resistant. Even so, they'll only handle a certain amount of moisture, just like plywood roof decking or the LVL beams or engineered trusses holding up your house - those are actually rated on how much water exposure they can handle. Because there's no roof when a house is still being built.
| ||
| Post# 431167 , Reply# 28 9/2/2020 at 21:07 (1,330 days old) by fan-of-fans (USA) | ||
|
Here's some info I found on history of American Furnace Co:
PARENT COMPANY: AMERICAN FURNACE COMPANY 1968 – AMERICAN FURNACE COMPANY BECAME PART OF CLIMATE CONTROL A DIVISION WITHIN SINGER CO. 1970 – BRAND NAME AMERICAN FURNACE DROPPED AND RENAMED TO SINGER AMERICAN FURNACE. 1982 – SINGER AMERICAN FURNACE RENAMED TO CLIMATE CONTROL. SISTER OR SIMILAR BRANDS INCLUDE: NONE SINGER: In 1982 became climate control unit of SnyderGeneral Corp. with name dropped. In 1984 SnyderGeneral operations included Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, McQuay. In 1988 SynderGeneral bought American Air Filter. In 1991, sold Arcoaire & Comfortmaker to Inter-City Products. www.building-center.org/a... www.johnmills.net/work/history.ht... | ||
| Post# 431171 , Reply# 29 9/3/2020 at 08:58 (1,329 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
All I know is that Singer system ran like the proverbial sewing machine. They don't make them like that anymore. I'm already missing it. The new system decided to quit running yesterday so I'm stuck at home, waiting on a technician to come and fix it. the cats are loving having the windows open but I know it's going to be unbearably hot in here later on. Meanwhile, the A/C has also gone out on my car. I've just got some bad climate control mojo going on right now.
| ||
|
Post# 431172 , Reply# 30 9/3/2020 at 09:34 (1,329 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
||
|
Hopefully, it's just a 'glitch" | ||
| Post# 431174 , Reply# 31 9/3/2020 at 09:56 (1,329 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Yeah, the guy I talked to on the phone said it sounded like a safety switch, of which there are several, got tripped. I wish I new how to reset it.
I have an antique Singer sewing machine that my dad accumulated somewhere. It's probably over 100 years old but it's in beautiful condition, most likely designed to be treadle operated. What I have is just the machine itself. Apparently somebody wanted to re-purpose the cabinet and removed it. Dad picked it up very cheaply because it's not really usable without a cabinet. It is also one heavy beast, made well before the world even knew what plastic was. | ||
|
Post# 431175 , Reply# 32 9/3/2020 at 10:12 (1,329 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
||
|
That's why they, and the likes of | ||
| Post# 431179 , Reply# 33 9/3/2020 at 10:57 (1,329 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
The technicians just left and it was a safety switch. There was a leak in the the water line running from the condensation pump. It was just above where the line connected to the pump so it filled up the catch pan and tripped the float switch. I have to wonder if that leak wasn't the original cause of all my troubles as that piece of plastic tubing was one of the few things that got re-used from the original system. I may have to give some thought to replacing it, especially if it springs another leak.
| ||
|
Post# 431180 , Reply# 34 9/3/2020 at 11:03 (1,329 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
||
|
It just might be | ||
| Post# 431184 , Reply# 35 9/3/2020 at 13:44 (1,329 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 431204 , Reply# 36 9/3/2020 at 20:57 (1,329 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA) | ||
|
Well hey, at least you have a catch pan and a float switch now, so it won't ruin your floor again. That's a nice consideration... I wonder if it is required by code. I'm guessing the old system didn't have one, hence the ruined floors.
Speaking of your sewing machine that was liberated from its cabinet... you know they have / had what I would call a tabletop cabinet or 'base' to put them in. It's literally just a wood box that the machine rests in. There are one or two on ebay. Just in case you wanted to use... or even display the machine. | ||
| Post# 431229 , Reply# 37 9/4/2020 at 11:01 (1,328 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Yeah, I don't think I'll be buying any accessories for that sewing machine anytime soon. I really need to sell it and all the other junk of my dad's so I can get out from under the storage unit rent. Ugh!
And as if my bank account hadn't already taken enough punishment this month with replacing the HVAC system in my house, I've got to do the same thing to my car! 2013 Buick with 63,500 miles and it needs a new compressor, $1,600 worth! Ye gods, will it ever end!?! | ||
| Post# 431253 , Reply# 38 9/4/2020 at 18:52 (1,328 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
No, it's not ending yet...
So just before suppertime, I noticed it was getting a little stuffy in the house, so just out of curiosity, I checked the catch pan for the condensation pump on the furnace and sure enough, it was almost overflowing! Fortunately, I had not put my shop vac away so I pulled the float switch off of the pan and sucked the water up to get the system running again. I primed the pump with a little water and sure enough, the tube was leaking again at exactly the same spot, just above the hose clamp. Of course, this all happened after normal business hours so there was no one available to take my call but I left a detailed voicemail message, telling them to bring a supply of tubing when they come and be prepared to replace the whole damned thing. The tubing is old—possibly half a century old—and it has apparently shrunk and become brittle, as plastics will over time. I guess I'm just going to have to babysit that pan all weekend and suck up water a few times a day until they can get here on Tuesday.
| ||
| Post# 431258 , Reply# 39 9/4/2020 at 21:21 (1,328 days old) by kirby519 (Wisconsin) | ||
|
How are the floors doing. Any luck getting them dried out and back to normal? | ||
| Post# 431264 , Reply# 40 9/4/2020 at 22:32 (1,328 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 431271 , Reply# 42 9/5/2020 at 01:44 (1,328 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA) | ||
|
That's probably about double what I would charge for a compressor. I mean, there are situations where it gets that high. Like if the compressor got chewed up and contaminated the entire system with metal shavings. I'm assuming that estimate is including compressor, condenser, drier, and *maybe* evaporator. That being said, I think you should really shop around. That's a big chunk of change. Get quotes from several other mechanics. Seriously.
| ||
| Post# 431294 , Reply# 43 9/5/2020 at 10:17 (1,327 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
@MadMan: Yeah, they were going to have to replace damn near the entire system. They've had the car since yesterday and are supposed to have the job completed sometime today. I wish I had the time to shop the job around to a bunch of different places but I don't. At least I found a $100 off coupon online so that takes a small amount of the sting out of it, not to mention the cash back I'm racking up on my credit card this month.
@kirbyklekter: Yeah, I'm not a happy camper right now. They need to get it right the next time they come out because at this point, doing it half-ass is costing me time and them money. | ||
| Post# 431308 , Reply# 44 9/5/2020 at 13:13 (1,327 days old) by kirby519 (Wisconsin) | ||
|
Unfortunately it has come to this. Just get it done and let it be someone else's problem if it wasn't done right the first time. | ||
| Post# 431314 , Reply# 45 9/5/2020 at 14:28 (1,327 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Unfortunately, you're right. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions anymore. But this thing is going to continue to be their problem until they make it right. They have yet to do their final inspection for the city and I'm sure it won't fly the way it is now. That inspection is scheduled for the 14th and I will be sure to point the problem out if it isn't made right by then.
| ||
| Post# 431470 , Reply# 46 9/8/2020 at 11:44 (1,324 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
So they sent a more senior repair technician today and he replaced about four feet of the drain line with a piece of much more flexible tubing so the problem is solved at the pump but water was dripping out of the spliced spot, where he had put about eight inches of copper tubing and two more hose clamps. Fortunately, I caught him before he pulled away in his van and he came back and tightened everything up. Hopefully, that will solve the problem but if not, I have them on the speed dial.
| ||
|
Post# 431474 , Reply# 47 9/8/2020 at 12:01 (1,324 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
||
|
I hope you at least get a calendar | ||
| Post# 431483 , Reply# 48 9/8/2020 at 13:03 (1,324 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 431781 , Reply# 49 9/14/2020 at 13:38 (1,318 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
So somebody from the HVAC company was supposed to come out and do the city inspection on my new system today. Under normal circumstances, someone from the city would come out and do the inspection but right now, they're letting the installers do it because...well...COVID. Can we say 'conflict of interest', boys and girls? This appointment was set by them almost two weeks ago and they've now blown it off without so much as a courtesy call. I can't just sit home and wait for them to show up. That's completely unrealistic. At this point, if they want to do the inspection, it will be at MY convenience, not theirs. Frankly, it wouldn't totally surprise me if they never came out and just falsified the inspection report.
| ||
| Post# 431816 , Reply# 50 9/14/2020 at 21:39 (1,318 days old) by kirby519 (Wisconsin) | ||
|
Did the heating contractor to finally stop the leaking from the condensation drip pan and pump? | ||
| Post# 431822 , Reply# 51 9/15/2020 at 02:27 (1,318 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA) | ||
|
| ||
| Post# 431842 , Reply# 52 9/15/2020 at 09:57 (1,317 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
@kirby519: Yes, the leak is fixed. A different technician came out last week and cut out about four feet of the hard plastic line and spliced in some softer, more flexible tubing using about eight inches of copper line on the inside of the two pieces of tubing and a couple of hose clamps on the outside. I was kind of surprised that he left a couple of inches of bare copper between the two pieces of tubing. I would have pushed them all the way together, but what do I know? I'm just an English professor.
@Madman: I'm not worried about it. They called me up this morning and rescheduled the inspection for a week from Friday. That's a WFH day for me so I'll be there on the off chance they accidentally show up but I'm not holding my breath. | ||
| Post# 432463 , Reply# 53 9/24/2020 at 20:49 (1,308 days old) by kirbyklekter (Concord,Ca.) | ||
|
@ human I'm assuming "the fix" is holding with the waterline, has anyone come out to do the city inspection? Ooops! I just did the math, they're scheduled for tomorrow the 25th. Hope they show and it goes well, I'll check back. | ||
| Post# 432464 , Reply# 54 9/24/2020 at 20:53 (1,308 days old) by kirbyklekter (Concord,Ca.) | ||
|
@ human I'm assuming "the fix" is holding with the waterline, has anyone come out to do the city inspection? Ooops! I just did the math, they're scheduled for tomorrow the 25th. Hope they show and it goes well, I'll check back. | ||
| Post# 432466 , Reply# 55 9/24/2020 at 20:59 (1,308 days old) by kirbyklekter (Concord,Ca.) | ||
|
Embarassing I hate when that happens!A while back somebody on here posted twice and then they posted an apology twice. Funny. | ||
| Post# 432498 , Reply# 56 9/25/2020 at 12:38 (1,307 days old) by human (Pines of Carolina) | ||
|
Yes and no...
Yes, the water line is holding just fine and that's all I really care about.
No, they still haven't come to do the inspection. The guy called this morning and it rolled straight to voicemail. I have my cell phone set up that way because of the inordinate number of robocalls I receive, especially right before an election. And every time anyone from this company calls me, it's from a different number. I have like eight or nine numbers added to this company's listing in my contacts. It's ridiculous. I called the company's main number and asked them to relay a message to the guy who does the inspections, since he doesn't have voicemail set up on his cell phone. I haven't heard back from him and don't really expect to. I'm sure he'll just take it as license to show up whenever he pleases, with little or no notice, or just forget about it, which is probably what's going to happen at this point and I really couldn't care less. I mean, what's the city going to do? Repo my HVAC system? I doubt it. Any punitive action will be against them for not doing their job. | ||
| Post# 432500 , Reply# 57 9/25/2020 at 14:33 (1,307 days old) by kirbyklekter (Concord,Ca.) | ||
|
Amen It's on them to finish the paperwork. Like most of us you've got other fish to fry. | ||
| Forum Index: | 
| Other Forums: |
|
|
|
|
|
Comes to the Rescue!
;){kind=link}
;){kind=link}