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Thread Number: 40205
/ Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Vacuum cleaner pick up tests on carpet |
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| Post# 426890 6/13/2020 at 13:37 (1,406 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
I've done a small video explaining why you can't accurately weigh a bag or dustbin with debris during a pick up test on carpet.
Actually I did two videos because good "scientific theory" is repeatable. I'm only making one public because I don't want to start the debate bypass vs direct air that's not what I wish to discuss. also I'm expect to have a few "hurt feeling" replies from some locals in "New balance shoes. Enjoy or cry whichever "brings you Joy" Second video with similar results. http://youtu.be/gKSIGafjIs CLICK HERE TO GO TO vacuumdevil's LINK | ||
| Post# 426978 , Reply# 3 6/15/2020 at 03:30 (1,404 days old) by huskyvacs (Gnaw Bone, Indiana) | ||
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| Post# 426986 , Reply# 4 6/15/2020 at 09:28 (1,404 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
weighted sand in the carpet test
This will make things clear.
Key to these test is VERY thorough pre vacuuming before the test. In my test I got tiny bit of carpet pick up and even much bigger piece of carpet only weights 0.07 grams. So I did put down 10 grams of sand and vacuum picked up 5.79 grams. Even big piece of carpet is not going to mess up the test. NOTE that typical carpet pick up in these tests is way less than 0.07 grams shown here. Smaller piece of carpet was so light that scale didn't even show it. Video in the link shows everything clearly. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK | ||
| Post# 426998 , Reply# 5 6/15/2020 at 14:06 (1,403 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
6 Pairs of New Balance Shoes Here in the Lab
VacLab Response Part 1
In 1982, I took my first advanced placement (re: College level) Physics course as a junior in High School. Many years later I submitted term papers and received an “A” in a graduate level (i.e. 500 level) Physics/M.E. lab course in which I performed detailed mechanical/electrical labs. These papers were graded by a PhD professor. My formal degree is Math, but I have 9 credit hours remaining and I would earn a B.S. in Physics as well. With that being said, 6 pairs of New Balance shoes should definitely sway any naysayers in the right direction (see, I made a funny there). Let’s boil down his video into two fundamental arguments. 1)The theory of “if you weigh a vacuum bag, it will tell you how much you have picked up.” His observance that there will be “error” in pickup in 100% true and I’ve been making videos to that effect since 2017 when I started my channel. At this time, I’ve posted innumerable videos in which I separate erroneous carpet fluff from the test dirt, wherever possible But it gets better. Beginning in January 2020, I started a playlist called “Dry Pass (Carpet Shredder) Test” in which carpet tear out is specifically quantified. To date, 14 results have been posted, ranging from a low of 0.01g to a high of 0.65g. So all 14 machines (which were tested up to 5 times to obtain consistent results) had “error rates” of far less than 1 gram on my medium pile test carpet. While every carpet will certainly be different, all one needs to do is measure the extraneous pickup and properly quantify it, a simple task provided you have a sensitive scale. A scale that only measures to 1 gram should never be used. Once the “error rate” is properly measured, it can now be used in a simple formula. (Raw Bag/Bin Pickup) MINUS (Error Rate) = Cleaned Pickup I specifically designed my tests to give highly accurate results regardless of the error rate. Here’s how the Math works out: If I test one of my “carpet shredder” vacuums with 5 grams of sand and I have a known 0.5 grams error, I can merely subtract that from the pickup. If the shredder picks up 4 grams, subtract 0.5 grams and now you have 3.5 grams, a 10% reduction. If I test one of my non-shredder vacuums with 5 grams of sand and I have a known 0.1 grams error, I can merely subtract that from the pickup. If the non-shredder picks up 4 grams, subtract 0.1 grams and now you have 3.9 grams, a 2% reduction. It should also be mentioned that all testing typically has varying margins of error caused by a wide variety of factors. Many industries recognized that plus or minus 3% is an acceptable range. You should never buy another vacuum because some test shows it to be 5% or even 10% better. The difference will be nearly impossible to notice for the average user. Around 9:38 the statement is made “You can’t use carpet for a weighed pickup test.” <- Totally false claim as proven above. Alex, you need to watch how proper testing is performed, which is why I named my channel “VacLab.” | ||
| Post# 427001 , Reply# 6 6/15/2020 at 14:32 (1,403 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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VacLab Response Part 2
2)Vacuum Wars Erroneous Testing
Unfortunately Vacuum Wars does not know how to perform proper scientific testing and he has posted many hilarious results showing near and well over 100% pickup. I have posted many rebuttal videos but ALL testers need to specifically watch this one: Testing with 50 or 100 grams in a small area is downright irresponsible. Think about how many pounds (kilograms) or dirt would be picked up if multiplied out for 1000 square feet? You might fill a large Kirby bag every time you vacuumed! Totally unrealistic unless you reside in a massively filthy home. Vacuum Wars obtains near and well over 100% due to at least two factors: 1) His carpet is still dirty (must be flipper over) to remove previous build up and 2) Shedding (which he has never quantified). For my tests, I clean and verify a typical dirt error of around 0.01 grams. Read that number again very slowly. Yup, that’s one hundred times cleaner than what can be measured by a 1 gram scale. If I were to have a dirt error of 0.05 grams and was performing a 5 gram test, that would only introduce a 1% (one percent) error. Obviously, also take into account the carpet shredder results as stated in the first response above. Want to see an “unclean-able” carpet that has not only has never ending dirt but also massive tear out? This carpet was eventually thrown out because it could not generate accurate repeatable results. Final thoughts Any tester that obtains results near or over 100% should be ashamed of themselves period. They have either not done proper vetting of the test itself or the test is useless because all vacuums get about the same result. To that end, I ceased most of my bare floor tests years ago because the results were fairly boring. Bare floor/surface pickup is easy compared to carpet extraction tests. I can't tell you exactly how many hundreds of hours (maybe 1000+) I spent in College labs (Chemistry, Physics, Engineering, Programming, etc.) performing precision experiments with full write-ups that were scrutinized by professors and even periodically peer reviewed. ALL results had to be explained including all errors encountered (even broken equipment). Now combine that with a degree that includes probability/proofs and statistics and you have the makings of someone that is well qualified to create and complete proper testing. | ||
| Post# 427006 , Reply# 7 6/15/2020 at 15:45 (1,403 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
Game | ||
| Post# 427015 , Reply# 8 6/15/2020 at 16:37 (1,403 days old) by JustinAjax (Georgia) | ||
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| Post# 427019 , Reply# 9 6/15/2020 at 16:45 (1,403 days old) by Marks_here (_._) | ||
Ummm | ||
| Post# 427020 , Reply# 10 6/15/2020 at 16:58 (1,403 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR) | ||
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Regarding the uncleanable rug on the concrete floor, I have to wonder if the problem is the concrete releasing dust rather than never ending dirt in the rug? | ||
| Post# 427040 , Reply# 11 6/16/2020 at 03:06 (1,403 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 427049 , Reply# 12 6/16/2020 at 10:09 (1,403 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Mark, It's The Superior Shoes That Grant
Testing super powers. All hail New Balance! Let the shoe Kowtowing begin.
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| Post# 427051 , Reply# 13 6/16/2020 at 10:30 (1,403 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 427059 , Reply# 14 6/16/2020 at 14:23 (1,402 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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@vaclab All that nonsense and still no taste or fashion 🤣😂
Or basic understanding of a simple household appliance. I can't believe you'd posted a picture of all your cheap cankle shoes. Thank you vacuumland! 😂🤣🤣😂🤣 ROFL you all have made my day. 😁
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| Post# 427066 , Reply# 15 6/16/2020 at 15:52 (1,402 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
New balance | ||
| Post# 427079 , Reply# 16 6/16/2020 at 20:53 (1,402 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
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Ironic
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Post# 427102 , Reply# 17 6/17/2020 at 00:16 (1,402 days old) by gottahaveahoove  (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
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ouch. | ||
| Post# 427111 , Reply# 18 6/17/2020 at 09:13 (1,402 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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Well point of this thread has been proven. These tests are very accurate where you measure the bag or bagless bin content. Just compare it to tests where people judge vacuums by inspecting the carpet by eye after unmeasured dirt put down to the carpet. I don't show my shoes because they are mixed bag :D | ||
| Post# 427118 , Reply# 19 6/17/2020 at 12:12 (1,402 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Well Yes, Alex's Argument Has Been Debunked
By well proven methodologies that can be easily duplicated. Thanks for your bagless version of this proof Mike.
And I do hope that all the readers also fully understand that the shoe picture above denotes my general activity shoes. Things like moving the grass (see the green?), working in a muddy yard, changing oil/rotating tires, general lounging around, etc. I have many other pairs/brands for my formalized activities. I'm not particularly worried about "taste or fashion" when performing dirt pickup Alex. How many ditch diggers wear a suit? "Or basic understanding of a simple household appliance." <-- Nice false statement again. Keep 'em coming and I (and others) will keep debunking them. Bill | ||
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Post# 427119 , Reply# 20 6/17/2020 at 12:25 (1,402 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
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Well, | ||
| Post# 427121 , Reply# 21 6/17/2020 at 13:38 (1,402 days old) by RegularRett69 (San Clemente California, USA) | ||
Hmm
Well, I've been watching many videos, and Alex's videos seem to be more helpful and entertaining, because of the variety of vacuums he works on. It's very cool to see what it would be like in the back of a vacuum shop (even if it isn't) because I'm hoping to get a job at my local shop, and its basically virtual training. VacLab's replies may be correct, may not be (I don't read English essays very much) but they always come out in a malicious tone. I feel like the majority of people are bullying Alex on this site, though he was the one to work in multiple vacuum shops. I'm not sure why everybody is taking VacLab's side. Also, I got my first royal yesterday, and its great. Easy to push, very similar to my Dirt Devils, and the same charm as a generation series Kirby. It's a prince, but the upright, so a model 782. Haven't been able to use it yet because old owner used a Kirby belt instead of a royal belt. Going to the vacuum shop today.
Your friend, Garrett | ||
| Post# 427129 , Reply# 22 6/17/2020 at 15:23 (1,401 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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@RegularRett69
I am someone who actually supports everyone who is interested in vacuums and knows about them. I always try to avoid any conflicts and I have liked a lot of Alex videos and vaclab videos. Problem is when he turned against us who do these measured tests like me (vacuum tests) and vaclab. Would you like if someone made video just for you how wrong you do things? Even when you know the proper testing methods and another don't. Just think about it. | ||
| Post# 427130 , Reply# 23 6/17/2020 at 15:32 (1,401 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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| Post# 427141 , Reply# 24 6/17/2020 at 18:07 (1,401 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
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This post has been removed by the member who posted it. | ||
| Post# 427143 , Reply# 25 6/17/2020 at 19:48 (1,401 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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My Final Comments On This Thread
Everyone should see how Alex self-destructs and attacks everything except the actual claims when he is proven wrong. I will always attempt to correct faulty premises and flat out lies, especially when it's fairly obvious. Some people have no interest in the truth, which is sad.
(Raw Bag/Bin Pickup) MINUS (Error Rate) = Cleaned Pickup <-- Fourth grade Math As I've come to expect from you Bill massive amounts of arrogance. <--The arrogance is yours, not mine. Take your blood pressure medication for this one. <-- Are you my doctor? How dare you suggest anything from a medical standpoint! You have yet to mention the fact you don't have a laboratory. Nor do you even use enough vacuums for control let alone scientific experiment. <-- Are you blind? My lab is in my basement. You can see all kinds of equipment in a wide variety of videos. The fact that you don’t like my lab makes you quite prejudiced, doesn’t it? I created an engineering/testing lab in 1990 BTW. Added vacuum oriented equipment in 2015. I've even designed and built high precision test equipment. One well maintained vacuum is all you need. Car And Driver performs all their tests with ONE VEHICLE and only after it’s fully broken in. Additional samples usually skew the data by a small percentage. I’ve always said a 5% or even a 10% MoE is normal, depending on the test type. No one should run out and buy a machine for such a small improvement. You don't have a laboratory you're not a scientist. <-- See my qualifications in the above post. Also Google what the generic term “scientist” means. No vacuum YouTuber is to my knowledge. <-- You don’t understand what proper testing is or what a scientist is either. Again you haven't debunked anything except for a little ego masturbation and sharing you're flawed ideas. <-- Nothing like sinking down to sexual references, eh? And please Google what proper debunking methods are as you are completely unfamiliar with them. Again I've seen some of your videos you struggle hard to turn on some machines. <-- Hey! I have wide (4E) feet and tiny Bissell pedals make my foot slip off periodically. Not relevant to testing though, right? I knew your ego couldn't resist the bait. You live in a small hick town which has inflated your ego out of proportion. <-- You implied you were waiting for a response from me in the original post? What did you think I would do when confronted with your massively erroneous conclusions? Oh, and now my small hick town somehow makes me sub-human? You are possibly the most biased/prejudiced person I know of! Yes I make fun of you for being out of shape with cankles and bad shoes. <-- Your medical observations are hilarious! You think yourself a doctor? FYI, my ankles are the perfect size and my BMI does not put me into the overweight category. Get your eyes checked. I'm sure you filter out plenty of comments on that on YouTube. <-- Yet another lie. To date, my block list is around 1.5%, mostly due to foul language, just like in your videos from a few years ago. SUMMARY: My claim/criticism is that Alex is unfamiliar with this concept (Raw Bag/Bin Pickup) MINUS (Error Rate) = Cleaned Pickup Alex's Counter Claims (no proper rebuttal given of course). VacLab is arrogant, has high blood pressure, has no lab, not a scientist, debunked ego masturbation, has flawed ideas, struggles to turn on vacuums, lives in a hick town, has cankles, and bad shoes. Yep, sounds like proper rebuttal...not! Go nuts people! It's yet another Alex versus Bill thread. Enjoy! | ||
| Post# 427157 , Reply# 26 6/17/2020 at 22:34 (1,401 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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@vaclab Bill
As disgusting in the video. You don't have a big enough sample size non a scientific lab. IRB dose us YouTubers do not. Unfortunately it is evident from your videos that something's not right health-wise I wish you well! There's no degree for testing vacuums. 🤔 Nobody's ever asked what my credentials might be? There goes the saying "big fish in a small pond" I'm sure it has to do with why our egos so inflated. As soon as you leave your small pond and go into the ocean that is the internet you are a small flounder fish. I can tell from the conversating I've seen you do over the years, that analogies and paraphrasing tend to go over your head. It's okay. When I posted the video I mentioned that you would get upset and not understand the point. I will outline it quickly. *Vacuum Pick up test are not done in a scientific manner on YouTube. *Nobody buys enough of the same machine to conduct a proper scientific experiment. *Bill is easily betable & has bad taste in shoes 😉 *I love vacuum people and people who YouTube about vacuums. I even like talking to Bill.
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| Post# 427166 , Reply# 27 6/18/2020 at 04:46 (1,401 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 427167 , Reply# 28 6/18/2020 at 07:40 (1,401 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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After all this talk. Measured high accuracy carpet pick up test STILL IS the best way to know how vacuums really performs. Error rate in these kind of tests (if done properly) is very small. I mean compare this to the visual carpet inspection how vacuum picked up. That doesn't tell anything how vacuum actually performs and how much it REALLY picks up. Visual inspection works on the hard floors, but NOT on the carpets. There is A LOT of effort to do measured carpet pick up test. This is just a common sense and I find it funny how some people don't understand it. | ||
| Post# 427183 , Reply# 29 6/18/2020 at 12:39 (1,401 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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@vacfan1982 I suggested that when I saw started like a year or two ago.
He didn't want to do it then. I doubt he'd want to do it now ,But I'd be open to doing a livestream. @Mike811 I definitely agree it could be a good metric if done properly in a laboratory with multiple machines on a carpet that doesn't shed. Like what we see in the European rating system or CRI has done. But shouldn't really be considered anything accurate when done by a putz on YouTube. | ||
| Post# 427185 , Reply# 30 6/18/2020 at 12:54 (1,401 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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@vacuumdevil
"On a carpet that doesn't shed" 0.02 grams of carpet fibers is not going to ruin the test. Normally I get less than that and my scale doesn't show anything when I put carpet fiber "ball" on it. Test must be done on insanely clean carpet. Otherwise it doesn't work. Weighted carpet pick up tests still is by far the best testing method. Not perfect, but still very accurate. | ||
| Post# 427186 , Reply# 31 6/18/2020 at 12:56 (1,401 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 427188 , Reply# 32 6/18/2020 at 13:32 (1,401 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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@vacfan1982
"These tests will not be as accurate as in a Lab but they can still give you a good idea of the performance of a vacuum cleaner." I agree with you. Amount of work what goes in to these test is VERY high. I use my living room carpet so my problem is to get it insanely clean. I don't have special carpet for testing. If someone saw me pre vacuuming testing area they would think that I am crazy 😂 I mean doing 50+ passes from all the directions before testing + making sure that bin, hoses, brushroll, brushroll housing, etc is clean. But end result is rewarding. Unless I mess up the test, Then I have to start from the beginning 😣😂 | ||
| Post# 427189 , Reply# 33 6/18/2020 at 13:39 (1,401 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 427191 , Reply# 34 6/18/2020 at 15:02 (1,400 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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@Mike811
First off I would have sent this as a personal message but I cannot find your Instagram I know we've talked on there before. Please DM me. also I'm hope you aware that somebody tried to steal your name on YouTube by the name of " vacuum test" it's really messing with your SEO. With that out of the way. I agree perhaps in a proper laboratory it could be accurate I still don't put much accuracy into amateur testing. However I will say your videos and testing are far more thorough & consistent than a lot that I've seen. I would also like to point out that the type of carpet you have and types of vacuums are very different than what we get here in the United States. | ||
| Post# 427234 , Reply# 36 6/18/2020 at 21:28 (1,400 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Livestream
Alex,
As far back as 2018, I remember you asking how to contact me but you claimed you were unable to locate my (public since 2014) email address. You have now made at least two claims regarding a possible email exchange initiated by yourself. I have never received any communication from you at any time. Since you don't approve of any testing I do and you don't test, tell me what's the point of a livestream? Let me also be clear: before we would commence any appreciable communication, you would have some apologizing to do for your outrageous claims/comments as noted above by the deleted post. Bill | ||
| Post# 427235 , Reply# 37 6/18/2020 at 21:34 (1,400 days old) by RegularRett69 (San Clemente California, USA) | ||
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Deleted | ||
| Post# 427287 , Reply# 38 6/19/2020 at 12:23 (1,400 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
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I | ||
| Post# 427291 , Reply# 39 6/19/2020 at 12:35 (1,400 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
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Still
Its still floating.
I only use my phone to post. Some of my posts look like crap because there not on a large computer screen. I have a bachelor's degree. The last 30 credits are considered master level courses. From my experience every teacher of those classes had a doctorate. My point is there is alot of educated people. Even though vacuum devil doesn't (atleast what I'm aware of) have as much schooling. Yet you can't debate he is an expert vacuum tech. I don't think you have to have a labdesignated as a lab, to perform scientific research. Your both educated and know what you are doing. The shoes someone wears has no creedance on their knowledge. I don't want a reply but I just wanted to give a different point of view. Let's all hold hands and sing kumbaya or let's just play nice. Les | ||
| Post# 427333 , Reply# 40 6/19/2020 at 16:58 (1,399 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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@RegularRett69 what post and or user are you referring to?
@vaclab You must have had the same email server Hillary Clinton did. The point of the live stream would be drama fest and channel growth. You're welcome to apologize at any time for belittling me and other users on here. But to be honest I'm not sorry about anything I have ever said to you. @Lesinutah 100% about phones sucking to reply to things. I'm not sure where you got any idea of education I have. I don't brag about having 7 PHDs in underwater basket weaving. I don't really see academia as what defines a man's success. I appreciate you trying to keep the peace on here. There's one more take away from this thread. Bill + Alex = internet argument 🤣 | ||
| Post# 427335 , Reply# 41 6/19/2020 at 18:06 (1,399 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
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Exactly | ||
| Post# 427345 , Reply# 42 6/19/2020 at 20:09 (1,399 days old) by RegularRett69 (San Clemente California, USA) | ||
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Well | ||
| Post# 427413 , Reply# 43 6/20/2020 at 13:46 (1,398 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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| Post# 427423 , Reply# 44 6/20/2020 at 14:46 (1,398 days old) by RegularRett69 (San Clemente California, USA) | ||
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Yes! | ||
| Post# 427472 , Reply# 45 6/21/2020 at 16:51 (1,397 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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@RegularRett69
Please tell me exactly what in the deleted post offended you?
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| Post# 427525 , Reply# 46 6/22/2020 at 12:17 (1,397 days old) by RegularRett69 (San Clemente California, USA) | ||
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Well...
From my memory, NOTHING was offensive in that post. I meant rude by its rude to go delete peoples stuff, when they spent time writing and making it, just because you don't like the person. That post was all fine and dandy by me. (Also have a sneaking suspicion that somebody has multiple accounts on here, and not just one person).
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| Post# 427526 , Reply# 47 6/22/2020 at 13:53 (1,396 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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| Post# 427545 , Reply# 48 6/22/2020 at 22:19 (1,396 days old) by DesiredName (Utah) | ||
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| Post# 427548 , Reply# 49 6/22/2020 at 22:47 (1,396 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah) | ||
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Disagreement | ||
| Post# 427577 , Reply# 50 6/23/2020 at 15:37 (1,395 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest) | ||
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It truth They should just get a ruler, whip it out and settle this once and for all. In the interest of science, allowances will be made for temperature. | ||
| Post# 427580 , Reply# 51 6/23/2020 at 15:47 (1,395 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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Post# 427586 , Reply# 52 6/23/2020 at 16:39 (1,395 days old) by Thevacomaticiec (Bathurst New Brunswick Canada ) |
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| Post# 440585 , Reply# 53 4/4/2021 at 23:37 (1,110 days old) by Shrink1982 (Indianapolis) | ||
??
Why is one YouTube attacking someone based on their perceived "health status" and their shoes? What do these things have to do with vacuums? It reminds me of a certain past president who couldn't make a solid argument and would stoop to the level of a bully and attack people based on silly and childish characteristics.
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