Thread Number: 40180  /  Tag: Pre-1950 Vacuum Cleaners
1911 Central vacuum system help
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Post# 426603   6/7/2020 at 02:31 (1,390 days old) by Bakerhouse (Los Angeles )        

I have an Arts/Crafts house in Los Angeles built in 1911 that originally had a central vacuum system in it. The motor was removed from the basement before I bought the house but the diaphragm is still in place ready to be hooked up again, as well as the many wall outlets around the house. I could easily put a big vacuum down there and connect it if it was that simple. Is that possible? Below are photos of the wall outlets. There are no markings on them, but there’s a square hole in the center of the plug that turns to open or lock it. Is it possible to find and purchase equipment that will allow this system to work again? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Thank you very much.
Dale


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Post# 426611 , Reply# 1   6/7/2020 at 11:11 (1,390 days old) by RainbowD4C (Saint Joseph, Michigan )        

rainbowd4c's profile picture
Dale I passed this on to our resident Central Vacuum System guru Owen. He is an amazing wealth of knowledge.

Post# 426628 , Reply# 2   6/7/2020 at 17:16 (1,390 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Pictures of where ever the vacuum system used to be might help. As long as none of the pipes have been butchered, I'd imagine the plumbing is still sound. I'll bet hooking up a modern central vac unit to the old pipes would be a trivial matter. Fabricating an adapter to connect a hose to the old fittings would be more difficult, but not impossible. It may not be needed, but if it is, I'm sure any machinist could help you with that.

As for the wall fittings, they look like solid brass. You could polish them fairly easily and they'd look brand new. They may have some kind of sealing gasket that would need to be replaced.

I bet you could test the plumbing by connecting a normal vacuum hose where the original unit used to be, and checking the suction at each access hole.


Post# 426630 , Reply# 3   6/7/2020 at 17:59 (1,390 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Pipes

lesinutah's profile picture
I'm betting the old pipes were lead pipes. If they are lead which I'm pretty sure they are you have to replace them. They realized lead was bad when kids would peel paint off the wall and eating it.
The wall fixtures look old. They probably would work. Its just the pipes that would need to be replaced.
Les


Post# 426649 , Reply# 4   6/7/2020 at 22:22 (1,390 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Lead - I doubt it, but I'm not familiar with the area. I would imagine they are iron or steel. Even if they are lead, you're not eating off of them. They won't hurt anyone just sitting in the walls.

Post# 426667 , Reply# 5   6/8/2020 at 08:10 (1,389 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

I posted earlier on this, but it didn't come out...hmmm. The piping could be copper, but more likely old Durham fittings with steel pipe.

Once you figure out how to adapt a new hose to those outlets, it's just simple plumbing to hook back up a CV.

Kevin


Post# 426670 , Reply# 6   6/8/2020 at 12:26 (1,389 days old) by Collector2 (Moose Jaw, Sk)        

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There should be old light switches on the wall by each outlet that were used to turn on the vacuum as well.


Post# 426671 , Reply# 7   6/8/2020 at 12:49 (1,389 days old) by gregvacs28 (U.S.)        

Yeah, we'd have to see pictures and a plan lay out to see where the inlets are in your home.

The easiess way to try it out would be to take a standard vacuum and stick the hose into one of the inlets, turn on the vacs, and go around to other inlets and see if you can feel or hear anything in the piping.



Post# 426672 , Reply# 8   6/8/2020 at 13:48 (1,389 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Pipe

lesinutah's profile picture
The piping is probably not lead. Cast iron, galvanized or clay pipes were used in 1910s. I just remember doing a historical home remodel was lead.
Les


Post# 426682 , Reply# 9   6/9/2020 at 02:26 (1,388 days old) by huskyvacs (Gnaw Bone, Indiana)        

huskyvacs's profile picture
Lead was used for wall pipes and drains, cast iron for sanitary (toilet) waste, and clay was only underground from the house to the street.

Pipes are likely steel. Best idea to preserve the heritage of the house and for the unit to be compatible with the existing fixtures is to find a period correct unit or something close. The existing piping will be way too narrow for a modern vac.

It probably had one of these huge units in it: www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bi...


Post# 426685 , Reply# 10   6/9/2020 at 09:36 (1,388 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Lead was used in 'sweeps' and drain arms, bathtub floor traps....also in toilet waste stubs and for shower pans. My guess is the system was put in with steel piping and Durham type fittings of the day. I know old plumbing house innards well, back to the late 20's....but this is really older stuff.

Modern sanitary plumbing happened with Hoover's administration and became standardized, i.e., Hoover Plumbing Codes.

Kevin


Post# 426686 , Reply# 11   6/9/2020 at 09:43 (1,388 days old) by kb3pxr (Waynesboro PA USA)        
This may have some helpful imagery

Here is a film from 1915 called the Home Electrical on a 1980 reprint. It shows both an inlet and a key operated switch. I take it they weren't always push button switches.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO kb3pxr's LINK


Post# 426687 , Reply# 12   6/9/2020 at 09:45 (1,388 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Good point about pipe diameter....lots of drains were 1 1/4" which proved woefully too small for anything long term...even 1 1/4" vents would plug with scale easily.

You really should open something up to determine piping diameter of the vac system. The modern vac systems I've seen use 2" or larger piping. Even if your vac system was 1 1/2" it might be a struggle with moderns CV systems. The guys that are familiar with modern CV's in here would know.

Kevin


Post# 426732 , Reply# 13   6/9/2020 at 22:13 (1,388 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Piping

lesinutah's profile picture
I researched this quite a bit this last weekend.
The inlets range from 2-1/2" to 5". The size is still the same on the hoses. Its the electrical connections built into the piping.
You can get a hide a hose which would hose slides into the wall.
They also have where you use a house outlet for power nozzle.
There many variables. The pipes smallest are already 2" through the whole system.
Les


Post# 426738 , Reply# 14   6/9/2020 at 23:37 (1,388 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
I think you guys are picking nits about pipe diameter. It's an old system, if it functions AT ALL, I'm sure the home owner will be happy.

Post# 426744 , Reply# 15   6/10/2020 at 06:02 (1,387 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Not really....especially if the piping is undersized it could overheat a modern CV because of the restriction. The CV gurus would know.

I'd be really worried about the electric part of it, if any. Any knob & tube type system needs great scrutiny today. I wouldn't use it.

Kevin


Post# 426748 , Reply# 16   6/10/2020 at 09:07 (1,387 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)        

dysonman1's profile picture
It's more than likely an ARCO Wand central system. They used those types of inlets (locking) as well as 1 inch diameter piping and hose. I saw this system in operation at Owen's "central vacuum museum".

Post# 427454 , Reply# 17   6/21/2020 at 08:46 (1,376 days old) by centralvacs1928 (Chicagoland)        

Have to say I am stumped by these inlets - they are like none I have seen before. Several manufacturers did offer locking-type inlets, though I am surprised to see them in a home (they were usually for public buildings, schools, etc).

 

How many inlets do you have in your home? There were usually fewer than would be installed today in a home of a given size, and the hoses were made longer to compensate. 35 to 50 feet was common in the early 1900s, and the hose would have been made of canvas and rubber with a wire spiral inside.

 

One clue as to brand would be the inside diameter of the pipe and the wall inlets. "Low vacuum/high volume" centrifugal fan machines (TUEC, Invincible, Sturtevant, Spencer) used 1.5" or larger inlets, and 2" or larger pipe lines (usually max 2.5" in a home, even a large one). "High vacuum/low volume" positive displacement pump units (Arco Wand, Richmond, Thurman, plus the original "Vacuum Cleaner Company" of New York among others) had wall inlets with an ID closer to 1" and piping of typically 1.5" (larger for main lines of multi user systems, but these wouldn't be found in a residence).

 

As far as adapting a modern system to make use of the piping and inlets in your home, the suggestion above to hook a vacuum like a "shop vac" to the pipe in the basement, to check that suction reaches all the inlets, is a good one. Also examine the gaskets inside each inlet flap. 109 year old rubber will probably have to be replaced in order to get them to seal, otherwise the system performance will be reduced due to leakage. A little experimenting will be in order to adapt a modern central vacuum hose (whose end cuff is 1.5" OD) to whatever inlet size you may have (smaller or larger - for example, a 1.5" ID hose cuff is about 1.8" OD which fits the Spencer and TUEC inlets pretty well, and 1" copper pipe is about 1.125" OD which fits Arco Wand inlets). Unless switches are present above each inlet and the wiring is still intact, you will probably want an RF wireless hose handle to activate the system, which is typically used for retractable hose installations today.

 

Adapting the pipe size to the new machine should be no problem. Just take care to chamfer the inside edges of the old and new pipes where they join to give a smooth transition to prevent blockages. A rubber "Fernco" coupling will probably be the thing to use. The pipe/inlet size should also affect the type of machine you install. A small diameter system should receive a unit with more waterlift, while a large diameter system should get a machine with more CFM. This will help to optimize the performance of the system.

 

One last question - I know you said the motor has been removed (sadly)  but the "diaphragm" is still present. Not sure what that would be, but I would be grateful for a picture! 

 

Hope this info is helpful. It would be really cool to get your system working again! Wonder how long it's been since those old pipes had any air or dirt moving through them.

 

-Owen



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