Thread Number: 39754  /  Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
Kirby 1CR motor transplant into D50 or D80!
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Post# 421974   3/20/2020 at 22:16 (1,468 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Got a D50 or D80 with a bad motor and want more horsepower and speed?
I might just have the solution for you!

For a long time I had been wondering if a Classic 1CR motor assembly would fit into a D50 or D80 shell. The shell castings are very similar around the motor but the 1CR motors are more powerful (6 amp vs 5 amp) and thus have more windings. I have heard here and there that they do not interchange but they LOOK so very CLOSE!
The mad scientist in me (sitting on a pile of old 1CR motors) set out to try this transplant, and it worked out very well (with a few modifications of course).

Engineering notes:
The field is inserted into the casting with the wiring at the REAR of the shell. In the 1CR the wiring is at the front. In other words the field will be flipped around.
The field is a tight fit and the way the wiring exits the side may hinder its installation. However, with some gentle finness, it will fit. I would recommend a fiberboard insulator be inserted between the casting and wires to help protect the wires.
The field is slightly longer than the D50/D80 one. Therefore the field screws from the 1CR will need to be used as they are longer.
The headlight wiring will be a tight squeeze though the holes in the casting (due to the longer field), but it will fit.
Rotor and bearing plate assembles as normal.

So for the modifications...
Mod 1 - Motor wiring for yellow, red, and green will need to be extended another few inches to make it to the safety switch.
Mod 2 - Top and bottom brushes MUST be wired OPPOSITE of the D50/D80. Some wiring extensions will be required.
**Failure to do this may cause major damage!** The rotor will run in reverse, spin the fan off until it contacts the fan case, the motor jams to a high-speed halt and strips the threads in the fan and/or on the shaft in the process. Therefore getting this right is VERY important. Just to be safe, you may want to do a quick test run without the fan installed just to verify rotation direction.
Mod 3 (optional) - Carbon brushes for 1CR are the WIDE style (first year for them) to handle more current when run on high speed. Brush holders for 1CR require a 5/8" hole. The small brush holders on D50/D80 require a 1/2" hole. Therefore you have two logical options...
Option 1 - Do not change brush holders and use D50/D80 brushes and holders. If going this way, you will want to disable high speed (with wiring mods) so that the current does not exceed much over 5 amps, which the small brushes can handle. Also the brush lead clips will need to be modified to fit the thinner, narrower slots in the holders. If you do not use the hose much, this will be the preferred, easier route.
Option 2 - Drill the casting holes out to 5/8" so the 1CR brush holders can be installed. Doing this will require a 5/8" metal cutting bit, a drill press and a good vice to securely hold the casting straight and secure. You will need a very slow feed speed and some lube on the bit. After installing the holders, you will need to seat the brushes on low speed at no load for about 20 minutes, making sure there is no excess sparking. After this you can use high speed with the hose to your heart's content.

CAUTION: During testing of high speed, make sure fan case is fully assembled and a hose is attached to the front to prevent current overload.
A healthy 1CR motor will draw 5.5 to 6 amps on high when assembled with a hose attached. Current on the rating plate is 6A.
With motor unit assembled and run without a hose, the increased airflow will cause extra loading on the motor. Current draw will be between 7.5 and 8 amps, causing overheating, excessive carbon brush arcing and commutator discoloration.
This unique motor requires the hose to restrict airflow and raise static pressure. The motor thus spins faster due to less load and current consumption is reduced to engineered specs. The redesigned motors used in Kirbys after 1CR do not have this problem to this extent.
Low speed may be safely tested with or without the rug nozzle, as current draw with the nozzle is 4.3 to 5.3 amps. Without the nozzle, it may be only .2 amps higher, as the nozzle is not very restrictive.

Picture 1 shows the 1CR motor in 1CR casting

Picture 2 shows the 1CR motor parts removed from the casting. Note the correct Kirby part numbers for this model

Picture 3 shows 1CR field installed in D50. Note tight headlight wire clearance.

Picture 4 shows tight field wiring. An insulator between casting and wires is recommended.

Picture 5 shows 1CR rotor installed. Use same bearings, clearances is all the same between D series and 1CR.

Picture 6 & 7 shows assembled modified D50 having passed electrical tests. The wiring has NOT been finalized - it is in prototype mode... However this is a good guide to the normal wiring path. (Note that headlight was not wired up)


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Post# 421976 , Reply# 1   3/20/2020 at 23:11 (1,468 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 421977 , Reply# 2   3/20/2020 at 23:16 (1,468 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Umm

lesinutah's profile picture
I retraccted my post. The carbon brushes would be too close to motor.
That's my only concern. I pointed out other things but I know better.
Les


Post# 421978 , Reply# 3   3/20/2020 at 23:31 (1,468 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Option

lesinutah's profile picture
I have a solution that I'd prefer.
Take out coil and armature of d80(I like d80 better than d50). Get cr1 motor. Then get a 6 amp royal coil.
Drill holes for carbon brushes. Install coil make a small hole or use given hole to run wires.
Black and White wires from headlight. Black/red and white from coil. Hook to switch.
This would give you one speed. I don't like safety switches. It would be easier on motor not changing speeds.
I may try your idea though. I have a few extra motors. I don't have a royal fiels.
The fields are made by the same company.
Les


Post# 421990 , Reply# 4   3/21/2020 at 11:23 (1,468 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Les, brush holders for 1CR and D50/80 are the same length (1 1/16"), so will not be too close. Both brushes have same dimension side to side. Only front to back dimension differs. I will eventually try to use high speed with the D50 brushes, but to see what happens.

Post# 421996 , Reply# 5   3/21/2020 at 16:19 (1,467 days old) by kirbyklekter (Concord,Ca.)        
Now I'm wondering

I've got a stock 1cr that I occasionally use as a leaf blower on porch. I cut the coupler off of a decrepit old kirby hose d80 I think, to mount on front intake and then a hose on the blower port. Am I getting enough resistance from the hose on the blower to keep the motor from running too fast. I don't have test equipment or anything, you just got me to thinking about amp draw. I've been doing this for about 15 years with the same machine but I'm only running it for a couple minutes at a time. Any thoughts?

Post# 422001 , Reply# 6   3/21/2020 at 17:56 (1,467 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 422002 , Reply# 7   3/21/2020 at 18:06 (1,467 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Close

lesinutah's profile picture
The d80 and classic motor housing are different.
D80 is a smaller compact housing. The cr1 runs the first 16 inch brush nozzle and entirely new housing.
The field coil is optimized for its engine.
The carbon brushes are the same but the coils are optimized for motor housing.
It could be done but something will wear out to quick.
The part of the commuter getting hit by carbon brushes varies with each motor and each housing. It's not size of carbon brushes is location there placed is optimized by motor housing.
Les


Post# 422005 , Reply# 8   3/21/2020 at 19:31 (1,467 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

kirbyklekter, you are fine. Don't really need the hose, just the smaller hole to limit airflow. You also have restriction on the outlet, so you are 'double safe'.

Les, I do not understand. If the correct parts are used (as in original Kirby part numbers or direct replacement parts), there should not be a variance. Yes, I have seen aftermarket armatures with bigger commutators and they are closer but still do not touch. Now if the metal sleeve in the brush holder is loose, then you could have big problems.
Correct, the 1CR motor housing is used only on the 1CR.
The motor housing for D50 and D80 are the same and are VERY SIMILAR to 1CR. The main differences is the brush holder hole sizes, provisions for the power switch mounts, outer shell mounting hole locations, and holes to run wiring. Below is picture of both, D50 on left, 1CR on right. The actual motor chambers are the same minus the brush holder hole sizes. Geometry of parts is the same, too.
Later Kirby models would use the new double insulated motors.

Fun fact -
A 16" 1CR nozzle will work on a D50/D80.
If you swapped the fan case fronts you could use the 13" D-series nozzle on the 1CR. (There is a raised lip around the 1CR intake port which could be ground off if desired to make it all fit.)




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Post# 422016 , Reply# 9   3/21/2020 at 23:56 (1,467 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Rob

lesinutah's profile picture
In that case like all cases when I question you and im wrong.
You Al to already figured out possible troubles before you posted.
I have a quiçk question. Does a k meter test rpm on motors? I've noticed you have rpms in your vacuum testing.
I'm wrong but that's okay. Very cool.
I should know better.
The only point I was suggesting ds80 armature cr1 motor in same motor housing are not optimized for each other.
Les


Post# 422033 , Reply# 10   3/22/2020 at 14:23 (1,466 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Les,
Not trying to be argumentative, but rather making sure I am understanding.
Keep in mind that both the 1CR armature AND the 1CR field were installed into the D50 housing for this experiment (note part numbers in picture 2 of first post). I only kept the D50 brush holders and brushes.

You are correct that the field and armature for each model are matched to each other and I would not recommend mismatching them either.
This D50 had a bad motor so could not get RPMs on it before, but I will get RPMs of the unit after when I get back to the garage.

The main purpose of this experiment was to find an alternate use for all these 1CR motor units I have. Since no one is claiming them, I might be inclined to just pull the motor parts and junk the rest. These will be cheap alternatives to the D-series motors should someone need them.


Post# 422039 , Reply# 11   3/22/2020 at 16:30 (1,466 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Mmmmmm,

vaclab's profile picture
"Got a D50 or D80 with a bad motor and want more horsepower and speed?"

My fully refurbished D80 tests at 125 nozzle CFM, which means a CFM density of 5.61 CFM per square inch, which is extremely high. So high that pushing effort is unrealistic on medium pile or higher/thicker carpets.

I'm assuming that any "hot-rodded" machines would be primarily used on low pile and/or bare floors? On my fairly worn pile carpet, even opening the relief valve and bumping the height adjustment up one additional notch is still mostly unacceptable for cleaning 1000+ square feet of carpet.

How will you be using these machines?

Bill


Post# 422043 , Reply# 12   3/22/2020 at 19:38 (1,466 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Rob

lesinutah's profile picture
I thought you mismatched but you didn't.
Having a more powerful dual sanitronic is appealing.
I'll have to pin this thread to make sure wiring is done correctly.
You still didn't answer the RPM question. I have nicest k meter harbor freight sells very comparable to Kleins'. I have a anamometer ranked just as high as vaclabs mine was $10 more(I bought the one he uses it was defective). I have lots of tools just wondering how you measure RPMs.
Les


Post# 422044 , Reply# 13   3/22/2020 at 19:42 (1,466 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Usage

lesinutah's profile picture
I imagine he will use them to vacuum carpet. I imagine his g6 is his daily driver. I don't think he will use his d-50 much
Random question for Rob how do you take caps off tradition wheels. I don't want to ruin my caps.
Les



Post# 422052 , Reply# 14   3/22/2020 at 21:53 (1,466 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Bill, I would not get too wrapped up in the 'more horsepower and speed' line - I was being my sarcastic self. To be honest I have no idea if there WILL be any more speed. More power draw, yes, but not sure how efficient the 1CR motor is compared to the D-series.
As mentioned earlier, this thread is mainly to identify an alternate motor for the D-series if an exact replacement could not be found or was not cost effective. I was also wondering what to do with the 10 or so 1CRs out on my patio...

My vacs are used on cut pile carpet as well as with the hose. I may just have to restore this thing to put it up against a stock D50 that should arrive in the mail soon.

Les, Glad we found where our disconnect was; I thought we were missing a vital piece of info.
Not sure about a 'k meter' but I use a laser tachometer to measure RPM. I got it for checking phonographs but works for many other projects as well. Harbor Fright sells them.

BTW, the Tradition WAS my daily driver... then the bag got full. Found it was time to pick out a new vac now...
The 505 came out today - I love the sound of that little 3 amp motor purring like a happy kitten! (Yes, I did change the bag in the Tradition)
I plan to pick a new machine and use it until the bag gets full. Then change it and pick another vac, and so on. I will soon have a D50, D80, and 1CR to add to the mix...
I have too many vacuums.

Oh - the tradition wheel covers...
On the back side of the wheel you will see a bunch of metal tabs deep inside there. Bend them all out and gently pry the covers off. You may have to pull the axle for more room.


Post# 422054 , Reply# 15   3/22/2020 at 22:16 (1,466 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
I never get the name correct a voltage meter. I guess Klein electrical meter is where I get k meter. Voltage meter is what I'm referring to.
I've seen laser tachometers.
I have a heritage 2 13. I'd imagine it would pull similar numbers to hot rodded d50.
You shouldput an omega, classic 3 or tradition front end on d50. It levels out the stance of the vacuum. When you use the toe touch it gets all 8 positions. It is better than putting wheel extenders on it. The wheel extennder screws creates slot of tension where the extenders are. The solid axle has no tension. Using wide wheels on the back too keeping balance. Ben is where I found out this.
Les


Post# 422057 , Reply# 16   3/22/2020 at 23:37 (1,466 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Rob

lesinutah's profile picture
If you cut out 2 holes in motor housing in the center of coil. You could feed the wires out the sides. The wires that close to carbon brushes I'm weary of. I had a d80 coil that had metal pieces added to the coil to fix coil. One of the pieces caught a wire making it a live wire. The live wire fell towards bottom of motor. I had this happen on 2 d80ys within 2 minutes of each other. The wires caught fire burning extremely hot. I go dark blue, green, light purple yellow. The hightemperatures basically fried both d80s completely.
These were my first restoes of d80s. I put a large amount of time polishing them giving new parts trim, bearings etc.
I have an extra 1cr motor from when I got 505 and 508.
If I didn't wire the safety switch and just wanted low speed only what wiring mods would I have to do.
I'll throw another cool piece of info. The g series hose if you take off the adapter to the housing. You then get a d80- tradition adapter a small cut let's you pull adaptor into the g series hose.
Kirby collector may have got this from me as he has one.
The classic face plate put on d50-d80 housing let's you fit a classic nozzle?
That would mean the my classic shampoo system would work on a dual sanitronic.
Les


Post# 422074 , Reply# 17   3/23/2020 at 18:03 (1,465 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        
NUMBERS PLEASE!

And here they are, for project 'HOT50', unrestored stock D80, and unrestored Stock Omega for comparisons:
All are taken on low speed with open fan and no bag/emtor.

Project 'HOT50' - 4.7 AMP, 11155 RPM
Stock D80 - 3.4 AMP, 10780 RPM
Stock Omega - 4.83 AMP, 11066 RPM

As can be seen, another 1.3 Amps of current does not translate to a proportional increase in RPMs - only 375 RPM more. I suspect the higher current motors put out more torque to twist a longer roller brush. This little guy is now competing with my Omega!
Therefore this motor swap will probably not gain too much more performance, but it will be a good swap to save a broke D-series vacuum.
The carbon brushes will wear faster, but do not suspect by much.

And just to think, your modified D-series would be able to clean well with a 16" 1CR nozzle, too. Just attach it and go, no other mods needed from what I could find. I have a bunch of them, too, destined for scrap if anyone wants them.

Les, the picture is deceiving. The wires look close to armature, but really a full inch away. Also no hard contact of the wires on the side to the housing. One could cut a notch for them if desired, but an insulator is all that is really needed. Below is better picture.





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Post# 422075 , Reply# 18   3/23/2020 at 18:09 (1,465 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Nice

lesinutah's profile picture
Thanks for the pic.
That's pretty cool data.
Thanks
Les


Post# 422099 , Reply# 19   3/24/2020 at 13:29 (1,464 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
I've Tested Two D80's And Here's My Numbers

vaclab's profile picture
The first one was a wreck (never rebuilt), but still pulled around 5.0 Amps, fan only, no brushroll or light bulb.

The second one Kirby rebuilt in 1990 and I refurbed in 2018.

Motor Speed = 11,152 RPM (BR Spinning)
4.8 Amps, Low Speed, BR ON, Bulb ON

Motor Speed = 11,680 RPM (Low Speed, BR OFF)
4.4 Amps, Low Speed, BR OFF, No Bulb

Motor Speed = 13,680 RPM (High Speed, BR OFF)
5.9 Amps, High Speed, BR OFF, No Bulb


Post# 422130 , Reply# 20   3/24/2020 at 21:25 (1,464 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Bill, it almost looks like your D80s might have had replacement motors added to them (or perhaps 1CR motors?) Have you had them apart to check part numbers on them? I have one D50 with an aftermarket GE motor that runs at those currents. I actually thought it was bad long ago because of it but now changed my opinion. That motor had a unique field and armature very different from factory parts. The original D series could not draw over 5A on high with hose to meet the UL rating plate current of 5A. I will be getting another D50 in soon so i can get measurements on it, too.
Fun stuff...


Post# 422132 , Reply# 21   3/24/2020 at 21:51 (1,464 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Rob

lesinutah's profile picture
Mid run on d80 they switched manufacturers. I don't know the amps I was pulling. I got 132-137 cfm with brush roll and belt engaged. Altitude can cause a 10% difference.
Les


Post# 422138 , Reply# 22   3/24/2020 at 22:27 (1,464 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Take A Look And Tell Me What You See

vaclab's profile picture
Rob, I don't see anything in the below videos to indicate something unusual, especially with the "lost cause" video. Can you tell if parts were upgraded?

Kirby Dual Sanitronic 80 (Bill's Lost Cause)




Kirby Dual Sanitronic 80 Teardown And Bathtime




These videos represent two different D80's. They are not the same machine.

And I've learned through a massive amount of power testing that U.L. ratings are "suggestions" rather than absolutes. For example, I've seen 10 Amp motors run at 12 Amps under load and 12 Amp motors never pull more than 11 Amps no matter what carpet you run them on.

Bill


Post# 422139 , Reply# 23   3/24/2020 at 22:57 (1,464 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Bill, in your first video, the rotor looked to be unusual, given the varieties of numbers on it and the 115V that appeared hand-written. Also I see '959' on it. The rotor for the 516 to S7 was 114959, so it might be that mixed with a (possibly) original field. Could have been a rewound rotor, as that was popular back then when they used to repair stuff.
Kirby original rotor part for D series is 114967
This one also sounded hotter than a stock D-series. Having grown up with my mom's D50, that unique sound is locked in my brain...

I could not see any numbers in the second video so cannot comment on that one.



Post# 427970 , Reply# 24   7/1/2020 at 13:25 (1,366 days old) by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
texaskirbyguy

kirbyclassiciii's profile picture
Rob,

From 1972-73, the Classic 1CR fan case changed from the old style used on the D50/80 to a new style to support the groove on the back of the rug nozzle casting.

But, in recent replacement (since about 1979), the Classic Omega 1CB's fan case (120073) is used, and like the 120065 fan case, does not have the protrusion to support the groove on the back of the nozzle casting for the 1972-73 Classics.

~Ben


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