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Thread Number: 39600
/ Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Not worth it: Riccar/Simplicity tandem air uprights |
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| Post# 420012 2/15/2020 at 04:11 (1,524 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
Okay so this is a bit rant.
I have seen these been tested on the airflow box and results aren't impressive at all. Now to remind you they that they cost up to 1600$. So obviously you will get huge performance from these due to the two motor system? Sadly that's not the case here. Nozzle airflow with the bypass motor only running is 76 cfm and both motors running 81 cfm. So direct air motor only boosts 5 cfm when it is added to the vacuum. So my biggest complaint is that did they even test it when it left from the drawing board? There is quite many single suction motor uprights what can do the same and even better than this fancy tandem air vacuum. Tandem air system doesn't add agitation or anything else. Only thing what it adds is the production cost and complexity of the vacuum. You are better off with cheaper Riccar/Simplicity. They offer the same airflow and agitation and they cost a lot less. Naturally suction is unaffected by the Tandem air design. My intention was not to upset anyone. These are raw numbers and they don't lie. Just choose normal single suction upright and you will have the same or even more performance. If you really want high airflow upright go for the traditional direct air vacuum. | ||
| Post# 420013 , Reply# 1 2/15/2020 at 06:44 (1,524 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 420014 , Reply# 2 2/15/2020 at 08:01 (1,524 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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I have seen service video of it and indeed it's very complicated 😀 You can get the same performance a lot cheaper. For example I saw US version Sebo Felix in test and it got 81 cfm. That is very good. EU version with 700 watt motor gets 74 cfm and that is still good. 900 watt Vorwerk VK 135 has whopping 100 cfm. So much better options are available. Riccar SupraLite would be cool. Similar design Hoover Platinum Lightweight UH30010 pulls 114 cfm! | ||
Post# 420015 , Reply# 3 2/15/2020 at 08:03 (1,524 days old) by n0oxy  (Saint Louis Missouri, United States) |
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definitely go for the Felix I think the Felix is by far the best upright you can get. It will clean better than any tandom air upright and will probably clean better than a Kirby as well. And it will clean hard floors as well as a canister cleaner. Mike | ||
| Post# 420019 , Reply# 4 2/15/2020 at 08:40 (1,524 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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| Post# 420023 , Reply# 6 2/15/2020 at 09:31 (1,524 days old) by dysonman1 (the county) | ||
they are such junk. The motor that powers the hose is the same motor as the small simplicity over-the-shoulder vac called the Sport. Tiny little thing. The other motor (with the direct air fan) is fragile as a woman's love. Cheap, cheap, cheap. The cost to the manufacturer for both motors together is little more than $10. Constant circuit board failures as well as hall sensor failures. I worked on a ton of them and hated every single one. I also saw them catch on fire on the assembly line (I worked for ten years at the factory where they were made) when they stopped the brush motor with a towel to test the hall sensor. I remember one, in flames, came flying down the concrete steps from the production floor, with employees holding fire extinguishers putting out the flames. Good times.
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| Post# 420024 , Reply# 7 2/15/2020 at 09:52 (1,524 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 420036 , Reply# 8 2/15/2020 at 17:23 (1,524 days old) by S2_82 (Ohio) | ||
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I came extremely close to buying one and I'm glad I chose not to. Alex (vacuumdevil) helped me make my mind up, thanks to him telling the truth. Instead of shelling out $1000 for a radiance, I'll be investing that in my very first Aerus/ electrolux soon | ||
| Post# 420039 , Reply# 11 2/15/2020 at 18:53 (1,524 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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| Post# 420040 , Reply# 12 2/15/2020 at 19:04 (1,524 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller) | ||
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My wife is not a vacuum enthusiast. Over the years I've paraded a number of high-end vacuums past her and she has found fault with every one... up until I brought home a Felix one day. Finally a vacuum that impresses her. I love it as well. So much for the complex Simplicity. | ||
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Post# 420052 , Reply# 13 2/16/2020 at 00:20 (1,524 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC) |
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Make YOUR OWN tandem air vacuum-I have---Kirby+NSSM1,Kirby or Royal upright +MD Silentmaster.Yes,I do have some Tandem air machines in my collection-sometimes just fun to use even thought they are ineficeint. | ||
| Post# 420062 , Reply# 14 2/16/2020 at 06:37 (1,523 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
I am Curious
How many of you have actually used a tandem air machine? Obviously Tom has, seems Rex has too.
I will agree that they are overly complex there are better ways to achieve the same level of performance. I've measured my S40P a few times the highest results I've achieved were 1 motor: 84.77 CFM 2 motors: 95.55 CFM Bag door open (direct air motor only): 98.63 CFM. Suction Wise I get 80" from the hose. which is pretty average. I did at one point measure a S30 I think I got about 88 CFM with both motors running. They have a nozzle area of about 27in² so they'd have a pretty good airflow density of 3.69 If we talk about their carpet cleaning performance, A riccar R40P set a new record (I think) for dirt removal on vacuumwars While I've not measured it's carpet cleaning performance i feel it's in the top 4. The only machines I'd put above it are like Kirby, metal royals, and Direct air Sanitaires. I may be in the vast minority here but I feel performance wise they do rather well and perhaps don't deserve the hate they're getting. Granted tacony has changed and I feel the quality control of the company has gone to crap. | ||
| Post# 420063 , Reply# 15 2/16/2020 at 07:41 (1,523 days old) by vacfan1982 (Cardiff) | ||
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| Post# 420066 , Reply# 17 2/16/2020 at 09:37 (1,523 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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| Post# 420067 , Reply# 18 2/16/2020 at 09:42 (1,523 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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A comparison
That can be done! I've already tested the Felix with sand 77.4% was the result I got after 10 passes.
Here's the data set so far. I did actually test the S40P on a rug where it did fantastically but decided to strike the result after making the decision to use my normal carpeting as I feel it's a better representation of "standard carpeting" It's also odd to use machines like the Felix/D4 and the R10P/Wonder where the same brushroll design is used have such a large performance gap. I think I tested the D4 like 3-4x and that percentage was the best of the batch. The lindhaus needed some work which I was unaware of at the time so it will be re-tested too.
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Post# 420095 , Reply# 20 2/17/2020 at 09:00 (1,522 days old) by Kloveland (Tulsa) |
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I like mine. It does lift the carpet and has a good agitator with stiff bristles. I must agree it’s a little over engineered. I picked mine up used. So far, I’ve had no problems with it. It’s like a Kirby with attachments on board. The cfm is high and it lifts the carpet up like a Kirby but the Kirby has more cfm. However, I’m still glad I have one of these in my collection. With reasonable care I expected mine to last awhile.
I do like the cord wrap on the Panasonic, Riccars, etc. The hooks are near the top of the handle and the operator doesn’t have to bend down clear to the floor to wrap the cord around the hooks. I wish more manufactures would have thought of this. | ||
| Post# 420474 , Reply# 21 2/23/2020 at 15:06 (1,516 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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Here's the data
Sorry vacuum testing has not been of too much interest to me lately so it got put off.
I ran both airflow testing and sand testing. I have had issues with getting this machine seated to the box in the past so i made additional efforts to seal it up. I will say my voltage is running a little low today so it's not exactly up to it's peak performance but sealed suction is up due to the better mating. Single motor airflow: 82.71 CFM single motor suction: 32" tandem air airflow: 95.55 CFM tandem air suction: 40" All of these are admirable results for a machine that's not fully direct air. Now on to sand testing. I made an effort to clean the area well with a Sanitaire clearly there were some remnants left behind. Unfortunately I didn't notice that the number on the empty bag wasn't visisble fortunately I recorded that on paper. Sand pickup (tainted) 5.53/5 ~111% Even with a tainted pickup we can conclude that the S40 is no slouch. This is actually a record for all vacs tested by me so far. It's just unfortunate that other debris skews the result. | ||
| Post# 420497 , Reply# 22 2/23/2020 at 20:03 (1,516 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY) | ||
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| Post# 420499 , Reply# 23 2/23/2020 at 20:59 (1,516 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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I quite like Miele canisters. Their filtration and especially bags are very good.
Also they are quiet and powerful. Same cannot be said about Dyson. Note that Miele prices are way lower in Europe than in US. Sadly quality isn't what it used to be. My mid 80's Miele S234i is noticeably better made than my few years old C3. But it's better than average for sure. Sebo is more to my liking. | ||
| Post# 420500 , Reply# 24 2/23/2020 at 21:06 (1,516 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY) | ||
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| Post# 420520 , Reply# 25 2/24/2020 at 08:25 (1,515 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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crazykirbydude
I agree with you. Modern vacuums (most of them) have too much circuit boards causing problems in the future. I have hard time believing that my few years old Miele C3 would last long as my mid 80's Miele S234i. It is 35 years old now and works like it was new. Very simple design and overall better quality. What it comes to airflow and suction there is not much difference. It's not quiet as the newer one, but I prefer it. Overall I prefer older vacuums most of the time.
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| Post# 420546 , Reply# 26 2/24/2020 at 16:50 (1,515 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
Devin That's Quite An Improvement Over
Your previous S40P test where you got 83.23 CFM with two motors. So now we have a $1000+ dual motor rig that can properly challenge a Hoover Tempo Widepath.
91 CFM, 42" of nozzle lift, and about 80" of hose suction. My sand tests were similar to yours as well with 82% pickup. Yes, I know everybody hates me bringing this up again. :) | ||
| Post# 420550 , Reply# 27 2/24/2020 at 17:40 (1,515 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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Wait what?
I've always had difficulty getting this unit to seal to the box properly I've tested it quite a few times over the course of owning it. in fact it wasn't too long after I had posted the pictured result where I had re-tested it.
Hm I don't feel as though the sand testing was close. I do admit that my sand testing was skewed by previous dirt despite my efforts to remove as much of it as possible with my Sanitaire S675. We can see the contents of the bag in pictures 10-13 in the testing post above. The vast majority of it is sand. The same area was used to re-test my repaired lindhaus healthcare pro previous then cleaned with the S675 so there may be sand left behind from that. I think had it not been contaminated we would have seen a result in the mid or high 90s it's got pretty good airflow and a nozzle area of about 27in meaning we should have a density of 3.54. Then we couple that with it's triple row brush's agitation and we have a machine is quite capable.
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| Post# 420554 , Reply# 28 2/24/2020 at 19:52 (1,515 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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I Misread Some Of Your Data
And realized that the chart you posted was "blank" next to the S40P box (was reading posts on my phone around lunchtime). Have you properly "reset" your test carpet to make absolutely sure there was no remaining sand (flip it over and vacuum underneath)? One very annoying thing I've found is anyone that posts formal results that touch or exceed the 100% mark is posting false data (Vacuum Wars).
It is never possible to pickup more than you put down, unless what you pickup is not the target dirt and/or remnant test sand. While that brushroll might legitimately pickup more than 80%, I can guarantee some of that will be "dirty". You could try the carpet shredder test and see what you pickup when there is supposedly no dirt in your test carpet. My gently used Symmetry scored 0.52g in the shredder test and that would equate to a 10% score boost when using 5g of sand. Harsher brushrolls could easily have an even larger error. Bill | ||
| Post# 420571 , Reply# 29 2/25/2020 at 04:35 (1,514 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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hmm?
My chart was blank? It may be the fact that i've just rolled out of bed, but did the images not load or am I misreading that.
I'm unable to vacuum the back side of my carpeting as I'm using my installed living room carpet. I once had a rug but it was really nothing like typical installed carpet, the backing of it just didn't breathe properly, and the pile was a tish short. so I figured it was best not to use it for these type of things. That was the rug that I tried sand testing that Lindhaus Diamante on and got terrible results. I recall the Simplicity Wonder getting pretty bad results on that rug too. I know my test was skewed by remaining dirt. There's no questioning that. | ||
| Post# 420577 , Reply# 30 2/25/2020 at 10:49 (1,514 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio) | ||
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Post# 420067 , Reply# 18
The S40P box is blank.
Did you have a chance to view any of my "carpet reset" videos like the one posted above? In order to have valid results, the tester must FULLY reset the carpet to a extraordinarily clean level. Since you are unable to FULLY clean your installed carpet, dirt of all types (especially sand) is building up. I would never test on an installed carpet because I could never guarantee the residual dirt levels, especially when testing with smaller amounts (i.e. 5g, 10g). On my test carpet, I can guarantee residual dirt levels usually around the 0.01g mark (rarely higher), which would mean a 0.2% error for sand testing and 0.1% for baking soda testing. It saddens me greatly to see YouTube channels obtain 110% pickup when using 100g as the dirt amount. That would mean that carpet had up to an extra 10g wandering around the pile. Can you imagine if I was that sloppy? Since I only use 10g of baking soda, that could mean a pickup result of 200%! Bottom line is please obtain a test carpet and do some dry pass pickup measurements so your results aren't skewed. I paid about $30 for my "plain jane" medium pile 5'x 7' Mohawk carpet back in 2017. | ||
| Post# 420582 , Reply# 31 2/25/2020 at 14:51 (1,514 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota) | ||
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ooooh.
Oh that. Yeah I had a previous test result from that crappy rug I had but decided since I was changing the test carpet it wouldn't be consistent to keep using those numbers when they weren't tested on the same surface. So I just struck the result from my records and left the field open as it was only a matter of time before it was re-done in a manner consistent with the rest.
I get what you're saying and I understand that my method isn't going to be even close to the accuracy of your testing. Thing is I live in a fairly small space with limited hard flooring, I don't really want to keep a roll of carpet around. Even that rug was a pain. Looking back on the initial rug tests the Simplicity Wonder TAP scored 69.2% on it, it performed much better on my carpeting. The S40P had the same issues where it would consistently pick up over 5G when the bags were emptied onto these trays we can see fibers and what I think was glue particles, it was a rather cheap rug and I just felt that it wasn't ideal for this type of testing.
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| Post# 420653 , Reply# 32 2/26/2020 at 11:14 (1,513 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
Everything that's being said here ,got me crucified a couple years ago for on here.
Man has this place changed. Glad to see people finally talking designing failures of Tacony tandem air Vacuums. Let's put a few more nails in that coffin. By the way I think every collector should still have one of these before they completely disappear and becomes scarce. | ||
| Post# 420666 , Reply# 33 2/26/2020 at 15:04 (1,513 days old) by dysonman1 (the county) | ||
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A huge problem with the design is, the direct air fan pushes the bag so hard once it starts to collect fine dust that the bag pushes the front door open slightly at the sides. This completely negates the clean air motor's suction and airflow. We saw that problem constantly. The clean air motor will reseal the front door once the dirty air motor stops. The small bags clog quickly. Also, you should see the CHEAP gasket that seals the airflow path from the dirty air motor up the back of the machine to the change over valve. Dust puffing out all along the back of the machine while running once the bag starts to clog. Air under pressure will find a path of least resistance. Ten years ago, when I was first fooled into taking a job with tacony (there's a whole story there), I told one of the engineers as well as the vice president of the floor care division that they should use a two speed clean air motor, so they could get 'wow' suction through the hose. Since a two speed clean air motor would cost more than $10 to buy from China, they didn't even want to consider it.
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| Post# 420669 , Reply# 34 2/26/2020 at 15:12 (1,513 days old) by Mike811 (Finland) | ||
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| Post# 420678 , Reply# 35 2/26/2020 at 16:10 (1,513 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell ) | ||
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| Post# 420702 , Reply# 36 2/26/2020 at 21:23 (1,513 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY) | ||
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dysonman1... | ||
| Post# 420704 , Reply# 37 2/26/2020 at 21:30 (1,513 days old) by Mieles5380leo (Virginia) | ||
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Post# 420723 , Reply# 38 2/27/2020 at 08:55 (1,512 days old) by luxlife (Under a Pecan Tree) |
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| Post# 420728 , Reply# 39 2/27/2020 at 10:30 (1,512 days old) by dysonman1 (the county) | ||
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11 years ago this coming June, I was asked by tacony's vice president as well as the marketing director, to give up my vacuum store that I had successfully run for 21 years. I had a customer every ten minutes or so. They wanted me to bring my vast collection of vacuums to the factory in St. James, where they were converting the tornado shelter (about 2500 square feet) into a museum with themed vignette rooms. You can't have a museum without a collection. And you can't have a collection without a collector. I also brought my vast collection of paper (instruction books, brochures, repair manuals, ads, etc.). Period carpet was placed in the vignette rooms as well as period wall paper, etc. Shelves were made for the vacuums to be display in their 'decade' rooms.
So what does one do with a successful store? And a home that still had ten years of mortgage left? I called a good friend and former VCCC member and asked him if he wanted to buy a successful store. I needed to make sure the store continued with the same quality services, and I knew it would continue to be a money maker in the hands of the right person. He moved from Boston and bought my store for the amount of money in inventory and fixtures I had in it. Basically, for a song. He has made it even more successful today by adding central vacuums. The first problem with tacony is they never gave me a raise in ten years. I was to run the museum, give tours, restore and display additional vintage cleaner as well as run the Factory Outlet Store (that's how they were going to make the money to pay me - this was not discussed at the time I was asked to work for them). I was paid well enough, as I had told them how much I made a year running my vacuum shop. But after ten years and thousands of vacuums sold, and many many thousands of tours of the museum, I still did not have a raise. Because I collect vacuums, I paid a great deal of attention to the factory as I made friends with the employees and had to walk through the factory multiple times per day. I noticed the tremendous amount of rejected parts, brush rolls that were not balanced, motors that sparked up start up, etc. All chinese parts. The failure rate was high. I was friends with, and went to dinner once a week with, the ladies who ran Quality Control. We ate on Thursdays at the mexican restaurant across the street from the factory because it was half priced margaretta night on Thursdays. After a few, they always started to talk. That's when I began to notice things. About that time, they had problems with Radiance motors failing right on the assembly line. One caught on fire on the assembly line, and they threw it down the concrete steps with employees running after it with fire extinguishers. I was right there and saw it come down the steps. A good friend was working on the line at that time and took pictures on his phone of the flaming machine. They hired a new HR director who did NOT like old vacuums, did not like vacuum collectors, thought the museum was stupid, and put an end to the annual collectors convention (she did it in writing which I had to sign "the company does not wish to be associated with those kind of people". "those people" are you all - vacuum collectors. They limited the tour time to two hours, so people who were collectors couldn't come and stay all day trying out the different machines. Then, they decided to cut my pay. My pay, remember, had not increased in ten years. That was the last straw. I did the book work for the Factory Outlet Store, I knew how many vacuums I sold, and I knew how much money I brought in. Since I also was in charge of employee sales (they sold to the employees for the company's cost with no profit), I knew how much everything cost. I knew how much a hepa filter cost as well as what they sold it for (you wouldn't believe the markup). Cutting my pay, refusing to allow collectors into the museum for more than a few hours, no conventions, I saw the handwriting on the wall. I was most fortunate to meet a woman who bought a Spiffy Maid broom vac from me - she owned a building 8 miles from the factory in the next large town over from tacony. The retail space was 3500 square feet, more than enough for a vacuum store as well as a Museum (the old vacuums were always mine). I quit on April 19 and told tacony to shove it. They chained the doors, keeping me from my collection for a week. Long story, but my boss almost lost her job letting me in on a Saturday morning to get my vacuums. The actual reason for the Museum wasn't to show it off to the public. That's not why they conned me out of my store. It was to have a place for the engineering department to study the old machines, to be inspired by them when inventing new ones. The engineers are too hard headed to think they didn't already "know it all" and wanted nothing to do with the vintage models. Only once did an engineer take an interest in any of the machines (it was the air-way upright and he did design a modern prototype). So now I was stuck, my successful store had been sold, and I was just an employee of an uncaring company who used me as a trained monkey. Now, I'm happy again. My vacuum shop is lucky enough to be located a few hundred feet from the entrance to WalMart on a very busy street. I'm the only vacuum shop for 100 miles around. And I don't carry Simplicity or Riccar. I carry Aerus Electrolux and trade in every Riccar and Simplicity I can. I already know most of my customers, either from giving them a tour of the museum or having sold them a machine. Tacony also donated thousands of vacuums to charitable organizations (the VFW hall every year had a benefit and tacony would always donate vacuums). They donated to every fundraiser, benefit, etc. And I had to hand out the donated machine as well as take a picture of the people who picked up the donation and I had to write a press release about the donation which the company put in newspapers across the county. So I spend most of my days selling bags and belts or doing repairs on these many thousands of machines I had a hand in placing with their current owners. "There's a reason your grandmother had an Electrolux" has sold a ton of them for me already and I've traded in more than 75 Riccar and Simplicity vacuums in the 10 months we've been open. I refuse to work on TandemAir models. I hate them with a passion. All has turned out good, I enjoy my new store and come to work in the morning with a song in my heart. I live my life with "no regrets" (that's tattooed on my arm) but I wish I had known then what I know now - NEVER WORK FOR ANY CORPORATION. They don't care about anyone. If I had known then what I know now, I would still have made the move - as I never would have met my husband if I had not moved here. Six years together, four years married. In the end, It was worth it. But what hell I had to live through working for tacony. | ||
| Post# 420733 , Reply# 40 2/27/2020 at 11:23 (1,512 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY) | ||
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| Post# 420740 , Reply# 41 2/27/2020 at 15:06 (1,512 days old) by dysonman1 (the county) | ||
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Thank you Adin. I have had nothing but good times selling Aerus Electrolux cleaners. If the customer is unsure, I offer to bring it to her home on her next cleaning day and we'll use it together. Like an old time Electrolux salesman. I love it. They always buy one when I take it to their house. Such an easy company to represent - unlike Miele who make you run through hoops to be a dealer ($4000 initial order and can't sell the home care line for six months). I sell a good number of Perfect models (Electrolux copies) to the college here in town. The Perfect upright (lux copy) has the on-board tools and 95 inches of water lift. Drop in bags, lifetime belt. What's not to like in a commercial vacuum?
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| Post# 420741 , Reply# 42 2/27/2020 at 16:02 (1,512 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY) | ||
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Post# 421968 , Reply# 45 3/20/2020 at 20:27 (1,490 days old) by luxlife (Under a Pecan Tree) |
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This post has been removed by the member who posted it. | ||
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Post# 421975 , Reply# 46 3/20/2020 at 22:40 (1,490 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640) |
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Axel | ||
| Post# 422527 , Reply# 47 3/31/2020 at 19:05 (1,479 days old) by myles_v (Fredericksburg, VA) | ||
I had a tandem air Simplicity, I bought it for $100 from a Kirby dealer who got it as a trade in from an older woman. It hardly looked used, I doubt the bag was ever changed in it. I can't imagine anyone actually spending $1300 on one new, the cleaning performance was alright but it wasn't enough to justify the price. It was loud and heavy, hard to maneuver. I gave it away to an ex because it was better than his Hoover Air at least.
I do have a cordless Freedom which I got at a decently discounted price. It cleans well for a cordless and I am happy with it as a part of my collection, but the tandem air models are gimmicky. There are much better companies and cleaners out there than Tacony. | ||
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