Thread Number: 38961
/ Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
Hepa / Synthetic / Cloth Bag Efficiency
|[Down to Last]|
|Post# 413572   9/8/2019 at 15:01 (304 days old) by photowizd (PA)  || |
Had this thought in my mind the other day when using my Sebo Felix. The Sebo Bags don't seem that efficient to me compared to others. I've been testing out several upright vacuums in a dealership that I clean. I find that the Felix bags lose suction much faster than the other cleaners I was using. This maybe due to the design of the Felix or the type of dust and dirt in the setting I was using these vacuums in. But It struck me as I was replacing the bag every 2-3 days when the performance would drop and the gauge on the top would come over about 35%. Upon pulling out the bag only it only filled up about 20% of the bag which was very discouraging.
The other cleaners that I have used there include an Oreck commercial (U2000R1) with a hepa bag. That bag worked well but my opinion of the oreck from the start wasn't very good but the performance of it didn't drop all that much as the bag filled up. Now I do understand this is a direct air / dirty air cleaner so its also not pulling dirt through a bag.
I used a Miele Quickstep with a SEB 236. That worked well but the size of the bag and cord length was a huge pain but its bag was pretty efficient. Lasted me about a week before I noticed it was time for a change.
I did also try a Riccar superlite R10S which I really liked but that thing would never make it there with daily use. Much better agitation and pickup and the bag I could fill about 35% which for the size of those bags I thought was pretty good.
So I found a used Sebo Felix 2 and was really excited to try it out it worked great if only it
A) had a longer cord
B) The damn bags
The bags really don't leak much but they rapidly lose performance in a commercial setting. I wish they redesign the bag maybe the can't aim for miele performance but I feel like its one of the worst Cloth bags I've come across.
Not sure what others have experienced or noticed but I feel like I tried almost everything. Even envirocare vacuum bags in my opinion have better performance?
Currently because of the bag issues and because this place is mostly rubber backed rugs and hard floors I had them buy a Miele U1. It worked very well but two month in and the belt cage cracked and I had to replace it. Hopefully I can keep it running. The bags are very nice but one the dirt get up to the top of the filter cage in the back the bag is done. But that's about every 2 weeks which is ok with me.
On a side not does anyone know / have found a cloth type bag for Lindhaus uprights? I just picked up my first Lindhaus and I'd really like to use a cloth/ synthetic bag in it. Seems difficult to find parts for them but i'll keep looking I haven't used the vacuum yet it needs a little TLC.
Lets hear what the other opinions are on today's "Bags" Good, Better, Best, Awful?
I need to get into testing like VacLab I have all these vacuums and I would love to see some data. Love watching those videos. Also shout out to Performance Reviews I love the tear down videos.
|Post# 413581 , Reply# 1   9/8/2019 at 17:58 (304 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)  || |
If you're talking Activa/Diamante then Riccar/Simplicity type A/Panasonic U style bags fit.
If you're talking the L4/PH4 bags then there are Hepa ones made for those they're M3 bags. The problem is getting them in the states. I've spoken to AL (us distributor for lindhaus) who told me he has them but dealers don't order them. If you want to get them ask a dealer to order you a pack, or the other option is to have them ship them from overseas.
|Post# 413600 , Reply# 2   9/8/2019 at 22:36 (303 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)  || |
I imagine the bags I use in my rsl4 are the same as the r10s. I bought riccar HEPA bags from a dealer. These are the best vacuum bags at filtering and quality I have seen.
I don't have a sebo. I have heard they are awesome. The riccar HEPA bags are great.
I don't know if this helps but I have alot and I mean alot of vacuum bags and saying riccar bag is the best is saying something.
|Post# 413623 , Reply# 3   9/9/2019 at 15:05 (303 days old) by photowizd (PA)  || |
I agree the Riccar (tancony) hepa bags are pretty good compared to some of the other brands. Even in a R20D that I have you can really pack that bag almost full if you wanted to. I think part of the limitation maybe in the bag and the size of the motor on the felix. But I've also tried the bags in a Windsor S12 and I'm really not impressed. But again commercial dirt vs household dirt.
|Post# 413652 , Reply# 4   9/10/2019 at 09:59 (302 days old) by kloveland (Tulsa, OK)  || |
I picked up a used Riccar Charisma this weekend. The Hepa bag was packed fairly full and I didn't see a speck of dust in the bag compartment. I was impressed!
View Full Size
|Post# 413723 , Reply# 5   9/12/2019 at 13:26 (300 days old) by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)  || |
The best HEPA Cloth bags I have found, in terms of their filtration & maintaining airflow, are the Miele Airclean/Hyclean bags, Hoover Type S bags (for canisters) & Kirby's line of HEPA Cloth bags.
Derek - The experience you have had with the Sebo Felix & the Miele U1 uprights reflect my own pesonal experience with how upright vacuums maintain their airflow. There are 2 factors that influence this: The quality of the HEPA Cloth bag, & the bag chamber design & how it allows free airflow from the bag chamber to the motor, & how the design minimizes the bag coming into contact with the pre-motor filter. What I have experienced with the vast majority of clean air uprights is when the bag gets about 1/4 to 1/3 full, there is enough dirt inside the bag sitting on top of the pre-motor filter that it smothers the motor & doesn't allow air to flow free to the motor.
The only uprights that I have noticed that seem to solve the problem are the Sebo Automatic X series uprights, & the Panasonic OptiFlow / Kenmore Intuition/Elite models with the PowerFlow bag chamber designs. These are the only ones that can keep the bag away from the pre-motor filter & allow air to flow freely from the bag to the motor. The only problem with these vacuums? The bag is still a inferior 3 ply HEPA Cloth bag that the pores of the bag clog easily with fine dust. This is the reason why Miele canisters excel at maintaining airflow: The 9 layer Airclean/Hyclean bags DO NOT clog with fine dust, & you start to notice a loss of suction when the bag is 3/4 full. In addition, since it's a canister, the bag lays on it's side in the bag chamber where it's less likely to come into contact with the pre-motor filter.
Back in 2016, I had actually looked into buying a Sebo Felix, as I needed a upright that could convert to a hard floor cleaner with a floor brush. The moment I saw the quality of the HEPA Cloth bag & the bag chamber design, I immediately decided I wouldn't be satisfied with it's performance. I wound up buying a store display Shark Rotator NV552 instead, & although the filters get dirty quickly, have been much happier with it since you can clean them anytime you want to renew performance.
As for dealing with your Sebo Felix & Miele U1 & improving their performance, I have some suggestions for you. When using generic HEPA Cloth bags, when they start to clog with fine dust what I have found works to restore the cleaner's performance is to take the bag out, take it outside, give it a vigorous shake, & reinstall into the vacuum. Shaking the bag loosens a lot of the dust from the bag walls, unclogging the pores of the bag & allowing air to flow freely to the motor. If that doesn't work to your satisfaction, I would look up Vacuumtests videos on YouTube made by our own Mike811. He did a video where he used a Sebo bag collar & a tube to convert his Sebo Felix to take Miele GN bags, so perhaps that would solve the issue with the Sebo.
As for dealing with the Miele U1, what I would suggest is to find some way to roll up the bag a bit & reduce the size of the bag so it is above the pre-motor filter. I have used binder clips to reduce the size of the bag on a Kenmore canister that has the issue of the HEPA Cloth bag coming into contact with the motor, but due to the size & bulk of the Miele U bags, that may not work & you may have to get creative there. It's obviously the bag chamber design at fault with that cleaner, not the bag, so reducing the size of the bag should solve the problem. A Miele GN bag should fit....the collar is the same on all Miele bags, just different color....but it would be a much smaller bag in comparison.
Now, as for Devin's suggestion about using Riccar Type A HEPA Cloth bags / Panasonic U HEPA Cloth bags in your Lindhaus if it's a Activa or Diamante model, yes that would work. But, they are only 3 ply HEPA Cloth material, & the bag would come into contact with the pre-motor filter. A Miele GN bag should fit & work as well as those bags, & would have the advantage of being smaller so the bag doesn't contact the pre-motor filter, plus the 9 layer Airclean HEPA Cloth material that doesn't clog. Anyone reading this, also note the Miele GN bag can be used in any upright calling for the Riccar Type A / Panasonic U bag as well. You might also be interested to know that there is a Panasonic U Kevlar Cloth shakeout bag available as well. If the vacuum has a good filtration system, & you don't mind emptying the bag & washing it regularly, this would work as well. In addition to cleaning the bag when you start to notice the cleaner's airflow is reduced, you would be saving on bag costs.
If I could make some suggestions for the next cleaner to buy for cleaning the car dealership? In a situation where you're picking up fine sand & dusty type dirt, dual cyclonic or multi cyclonic bagless vacuums really would be ideal since they maintain their airflow as the bin fills up. You would just have to maintain the pre-motor filter on top of the cyclones regularly. If you're ok with dumping dirt & dealing with bagless vacuums, this would work. I wouldn't worry about reliability - remember you're spending a fraction of the cost a commercial vacuum costs, so you can afford to dispose of the cheap vacuum more easily if you can get at least a year's use out of it. Also, a Royal Metal upright would also be ideal & work well. Direct air uprights with the bell shaped powerhead housing, like Kirby & Royal, maintain their airflow very well & can really pack the HEPA Cloth bags. You will have to modify the bag fill tube on the Royal to take Kirby Sentria HEPA Cloth bags, though, by increasing the diameter of the tube with clear packer's tape. There was at one time a Royal Type B HEPA Cloth bag available, but it is VERY hard to find & may be discontinued. Perfect Products makes a Sanitaire upright clone that uses the same bag collar & size, & they make their own brand for the vacuum, but they would be just as pricy as the Royal bag, & inferior in quality to either the Royal or Kirby HEPA Cloth bags. Converting the Royal to take the Kirby Sentria bags makes much more sense, as they can be bought in generic form on Amazon & Ebay for cheap, & the generics are VERY CLOSE in quality to the genuine Kirby Sentria bags.
Best of luck to you finding a cleaner & bags that will work for your situation cleaning this car dealership. You certainly have quite the challenge on your hands.
|Post# 413775 , Reply# 6   9/13/2019 at 23:13 (298 days old) by photowizd (PA)  || |
That is some good info, I keep trying everything. The Miele U1 has so far been ideal with a few cons. The problem with this is the mix of hard floor surfaces along with commercial glue down and rubber backed rugs. So finding a decent vacuum that excels at all those surfaces while maintaining performance and being durable is challenging.
I do feel that bagless would be out of the question. I want something that I don't have to constantly do cleanup with. I remember my dyson days I had a DC28 for years until the head went downhill. Traded it in for a Radiance, which I don't use very often but nice machine.
I have been more impressed with direct air / dirty air cleaners but commercially I don't think they were designed for that.
I'd really like to design a vacuum with features from a handful of manufacturers. I've always found myself wanting something more or a combo of models features in one package.
I do feel a tandem air upright would do well but I think it would die or break down with the daily heavy use.
|Post# 413777 , Reply# 7   9/14/2019 at 00:28 (298 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)  || |
Commercial use-Most vacuums I see used are ----Sanitaires!One vacuum I spotted at food Lion being used on their floor mats was a chromed hood Green body dirt cup machine.It ran very quiet-looked new.A car dealer here tried a Riccar Radiance sold to them by a former dealer here----DID NOT HOLD UP-replaced with a Sanitaire.Seems like Sanitaires or their derivatives are still the most common commercial vacuums.Cheap,easy to service.Clean airs fair out LESS well under that use.And remember NO--REPEAT ---NO vacuum is going to hold up under food service use.The food grease and grunk will clog,corrode,and kill them!That is why those little Bissel sweepers are still popular in food service--brooms,too.And for hard floors-mops.
|Post# 413803 , Reply# 8   9/14/2019 at 21:10 (297 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)  || |
I plan on getting a sanitaire dirt cup soon.
I have noticed the reviews on them went down the hole. They are 4-5 amp shakeout bags plastic parts just crappy vacuums.
If you get the sanitaire blue line I have a s667a 840 watt vacuum with upgraded ST type bags is top of the line.
It could and would hold up. The machines are horses. I worked at a live in treatment center. It gets more abuse on floors than food industry because the act up food goes every where. If you see someone at McDonald's doing that you Chuck a cheeseburger at him tell them to STFU. That only happens on you tube.
The care center used eureka widepath with shakeout. I asked if they had a vacuum break down I could take off there hands. They said they don't die. Replace belt brush inserts and empty the bag and repeat. I only seen proteam vacuum broke all 14 eurekas in use being treated like crap.
|Post# 413814 , Reply# 9   9/15/2019 at 00:30 (297 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)  || |
There was a Carpet Pro brought into a former vac shop here from one of the burger joints----that poor vacuum picked uip and tried to eat a whole BURGER.Was a MESS to clean up.Those who feel clean air machines work for food service didn't see or clean out that Carpet Pro!Helpt Bill clean it out-YUCK!!!!!!What was the person using it thinking?A vacuum cleaner picking up a whole dropped burger as thought it was a crumb?Most of the burger was in the floor nozzle and the hose!!!Hardly any of it in the bag.The vacuum was a GREASY mess from the other food remains it picked up and tried to pick up.Again don't use ANY type of vacuum cleaner for food service use!