Thread Number: 38656  /  Tag: Wanted to Buy Items
Original Kirby 508-512 Cloth Bag
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Post# 410841   6/23/2019 at 21:05 (1,740 days old) by KirbyCollector (Columbus Ohio USA)        

kirbycollector's profile picture
Hello! I am looking for an original 508-512 style cloth bag for my 508, like the one in the picture (not my photo). If anyone has one they’re willing to part with ((even if it’s in rough shape) not too rough though) please let me know. I’d really appreciate it. Thank you!
-Thomas


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Post# 410852 , Reply# 1   6/23/2019 at 23:52 (1,740 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
Good luck on this. I have asked and nobody responds. I wish you luck.
Les


Post# 410855 , Reply# 2   6/24/2019 at 02:49 (1,739 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Hey Thomas . . .

Are you looking for an original shakeout-style bag because you actually use the machine that way? Or, is this primarily for your collection and doesn't really get much use?

I ask because I'm thinking about making some reproduction bags, but for use with a hepa bag system and the metal emtor.


Post# 410863 , Reply# 3   6/24/2019 at 08:52 (1,739 days old) by KirbyCollector (Columbus Ohio USA)        

kirbycollector's profile picture
If an original bag is in good shape, I’ll use it once in a while. But if it’s in rough shape, It’ll be just for looking at, and I’d use a different bag when using the machine.

Post# 410935 , Reply# 4   6/27/2019 at 09:15 (1,736 days old) by chicagomike (Plover, WI)        
budget

chicagomike's profile picture
what is your budget?

Post# 410937 , Reply# 5   6/27/2019 at 09:17 (1,736 days old) by chicagomike (Plover, WI)        
pic

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see pic

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Post# 410938 , Reply# 6   6/27/2019 at 10:07 (1,736 days old) by Gabowenjr (tampa fl)        
Kirby

I would be interested in a bag as well. Trying to keep the machine as authentic as possible

Post# 410943 , Reply# 7   6/27/2019 at 12:02 (1,736 days old) by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
chicagomike

rivstg1's profile picture
talking of budgets, $100 a bag perhaps?

Post# 410956 , Reply# 8   6/27/2019 at 22:15 (1,736 days old) by KirbyCollector (Columbus Ohio USA)        

kirbycollector's profile picture
Whatever is cheapest sounds good.

Post# 410989 , Reply# 9   6/29/2019 at 00:27 (1,735 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
I wouldn't pay over $100 . . . .

Based on my cost of building a prototype corduroy bag, anything over $100 for a reproduction bag seems expensive, even if it's made in the U.S. in small quantities. The actual cost of all the bag materials is around $10 to $15, depending on features. The rest is American labor and some profit to make the project worth the effort and amortize any art and screen printing charges.

Post# 410993 , Reply# 10   6/29/2019 at 03:26 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Lol

lesinutah's profile picture
Have you made a repro bag. You don't get it right the first time. There very cost intensive. Sewing material quality. I made a repro bag it's better than repro I made what I put into it. If anyone wants quality it's expensive. I can almost guarantee over a $100 into the bags. It may be close but he's not getting rich. So unless you make a high quality good bag hold judgement. If you make a premium bag people will pay. I can attest they will.
Les


Post# 410994 , Reply# 11   6/29/2019 at 04:08 (1,734 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Lol? Are you sure about that?

• No, I have not made a repro bag. I paid a professional seamstress to make a prototype sample and patterns for me instead. It was not expensive. Later, her company can make 2, or 200 for me.
• Yes, she made a perfect one the very first time. That's what professionals do and this is definitely not rocket science. She'll make the hanger 4" longer on the next one, but that's it.
• No, they are not "very cost intensive." I have no idea what you are talking about. It's just $6 worth of corduroy and a garter spring. Mine is more expensive because it has a zipper, internal hanger strap, 3-seam construction, and requires extra work to sew the top shut.
• No, quality is not expensive. It's just a bag. Garment sewing requires greater skill.
• No, I don't need to "hold judgement." I've already made and tested one, that means I know what I'm talking about.


Post# 410999 , Reply# 12   6/29/2019 at 08:43 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Okay

lesinutah's profile picture
I have sold the most expensive bag in eBay history. $350 .
I too hired a seamstress. She has a $10000 embroidery machine. There's about 2 of these machines per state. She did entire bag for me. I will say the bottom of the bag goes around the emtor I know what is used and it's the same as Kirby. I bought duvetyne exact material. It cost $120 plus for material. Top of bag takes certain material.
You may know some but I guarantee the bag I produced is best quality bacg anyone has sold. It's my opinion but nobody else has sold a bag for $350.
Look at my bag you will not see better. Embroidery doesn't wash away.
It took me and seamstress 7 months to get it right.
U don't mean to be cocky but no buts just look at the pic.



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Post# 411001 , Reply# 13   6/29/2019 at 08:59 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
O

lesinutah's profile picture
I bZg. Next I'd Mike's bag.
If you find something better.
The. 595 is a rare and super popular vacuum.
You may know what your doing but I believe I may know more about bags. My demdtress knows more not me.
No hard feelings but Mike's $250 mine $350.
Tell me what you think. If you got pics of love to see.
Les


Post# 411006 , Reply# 14   6/29/2019 at 11:07 (1,734 days old) by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        

rivstg1's profile picture
Les,

Help me understand... what is 'I bZg' ?
I've never heard of a 595 model. what is that?


Post# 411014 , Reply# 15   6/29/2019 at 13:18 (1,734 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Nice trademark violation

I can't believe I'm responding to this, but here we go:

• I don't care that you sold the most expensive bag in Ebay history. $350 is beyond overpriced.
• Embroidering the logo is nice, but it's not technically accurate, if you care about such things (which I don't necessarily do). All of the Kirby bags were screen printed, not embroidered.
• No, there are not just 2 embroidery machines per state. I have no idea what you are talking about. I've looked into embroidery. There are over a dozen computer-driven embroidery machines at screen printing shops near me. You pay by the stitch, so a $6 screen print could easily be $10 to over $50 per bag. Embroidery looks very nice and it will almost certainly last longer than a screen print, but it's not an efficient way to recreate graphics. That's why Kirby never made it that way.
• Duvetyne is just one material Kirby used. They also used lots of corduroy, including the original 513 bag I used for the pattern.
• Duvetyne is cheap. You can find 8.4 oz./yd. black duvetyne for as little as $3/yard. One yard can make 2 bags, so your material cost is even lower than mine.
• There are all sorts of Duvetyne available. Did you perform particle tests on various fabric and baseline that against the original Kirby duvetyne (presumably in mint condition)? I doubt it.
• Bill at VacLab has performed particle tests on my bag and it works great: 3x better filtration than an original D50 replacement bag. For 0.3 microns, he found 10k particles vs. 30k.
• The top of the 513 bag does not take "certain material." It uses standard corduroy. On my original 513 bag, it's the exact same corduroy I'm using, right down to the number of wales/inch.
• I find it humorous that you don't want to admit you are using a garter spring. This isn't some sort of proprietary feature. It's just a spring - no big deal if you can figure out where to get more.
• I don't like this idea of hiding info on this forum. It's very tempting to publish my exact materials and where you can buy them, although it will be a lot easier for everyone to just buy a finished bag.

HERE'S YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM:

• You are violating Kirby's trademark by reproducing it on an item that you sold for a profit! You even posted pics online and admitted your selling price. Not a good idea. You have NOT been granted permission by Kirby. How do I know this? Because I inquired at Kirby and their lawyer called me back to discuss this at length. They even sent me an official email stating their policy. I have been referred to their Engineering Dept. for the possibility that Kirby use my design (and supply chain) to make more bags. However, I'm expecting they won't be interested. Hopefully, I'm wrong about that.

• Their lawyer made it very clear to me that they will only grant permission if they decide to make it an official Kirby product. I can make this bag in a variety of colors to cover every machine from the Tradition back to the first Model C. However, I doubt Kirby will care about this since they only make black shakeout bags now.

• Since Kirby is likely to tell me no, I am considering the idea of asking my art director buddy who was my creative partner at the advertising agency we worked at in SF to design something new for these bags so they aren't just plain corduroy. However, that's probably a subject for another thread.


Post# 411016 , Reply# 16   6/29/2019 at 14:11 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Layoff

lesinutah's profile picture
Cease and desist. Bottom line Kirby would only tell me to stop. I sold one bag.
I'll consider my energy on this done. I've talked to 2 patent lawyers. I'm versed in what I need to know.
That's it
Les


Post# 411017 , Reply# 17   6/29/2019 at 14:14 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Rvstg1

lesinutah's profile picture
I got off a 14 hour shift before I slept and no contacts.
It meant to say pic 1 his bag pic 2 my bag. 505 is the model I meant to type
Les


Post# 411020 , Reply# 18   6/29/2019 at 16:22 (1,734 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Cease and Desist? What?

• This is about trademark, so you need to talk to a TRADEMARK lawyer, not a patent lawyer, although, occasionally you'll find one who does both.
• It doesn't matter what some trademark lawyer tells you. What matters is Kirby's tolerance for trademark violations by amateurs and whether they feel like taking you for an expensive little back-and-forth with their legal department. Maybe they won't care. Maybe they will.
• If you're just making one bag for yourself, I don't see why anyone would care. If you're selling them to other people and posting it online, that's different. That's why I contacted Kirby BEFORE wasting any time or money fooling around with their logo.
• You haven't heard from Kirby probably because they don't spend much time online looking for violators. Kirby's lawyer told me she was unfamiliar with this website. Now she is.
• Maybe you should "hold your judgement" next time you want to school people on simple devices like vacuum cleaner bags.


Post# 411021 , Reply# 19   6/29/2019 at 16:58 (1,734 days old) by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
les

rivstg1's profile picture
thanks for the clarification. Did you have several black old style bags made? I saw about 4 bags laying next to the one you were showing/presenting. I"d be interested in an old style bag perhaps if you want to trade or sell....for a reasonable price. I"ve tried emailing you at the address you have listed in your profile and from last year....but no response.

Post# 411022 , Reply# 20   6/29/2019 at 17:03 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
Check email.
Les


Post# 411025 , Reply# 21   6/29/2019 at 17:49 (1,734 days old) by KirbyCollector (Columbus Ohio USA)        

kirbycollector's profile picture
I would just like an original 508 bag. Anyone willing to let one go for cheap?

Post# 411026 , Reply# 22   6/29/2019 at 17:51 (1,734 days old) by KirbyCollector (Columbus Ohio USA)        

kirbycollector's profile picture
Les, there’s no email link on your profile.

Post# 411028 , Reply# 23   6/29/2019 at 18:03 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 411029 , Reply# 24   6/29/2019 at 18:10 (1,734 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
I emailed you I thought it was kelton. Sorry
Les


Post# 411040 , Reply# 25   6/30/2019 at 03:33 (1,733 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Abcplacenta

lesinutah's profile picture
If you want to email me lesinutah@hotmail.com I could explain further and I would love to here your process and compare to mine and be civil. lesinutah@hotmail.com
The bag springs are not garter springs. I used exact same spring Kirby does. I took a spring off one of my tattered bags and the springs match.
It's up to you but arguing over vacuum board is wasting energy.
Les


Post# 411043 , Reply# 26   6/30/2019 at 08:09 (1,733 days old) by rodknock95 (Salem, Missouri)        
My Thoughts

I wouldn't think Kirby lawyers would care, nor do I think its even a violation to reproduce a replacement part with the logo. Your making a bag for a Kirby Vacuum. Now if you put it on a debadged Hoover and tried to sell it as your own then there would be a problem. I see people make and sell stuff that has trademarked logos all the time. How many times has someone used a Chevrolet logo on something and mass produced it? Tons! 350 in my opnion is way too much for something that is not original. Your right, embroidered is not the way it was done back in the day. However if I had a showpiece with sentimental value, I would consider it....but to be correct on making one as original as possible, it would have to be screenprinted. I would be cringe everytime I turned it on with a 350 dollar bag on it, LOL

Blaze


Post# 411054 , Reply# 27   6/30/2019 at 14:51 (1,733 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Blaze: actually, it is a violation . . .

• Yes, it is a violation and Kirbys lawyers care. That's why they sent me an official response.
• Putting a "kirby-branded" bag on a Hoover is totally unrelated. It doesn't matter what machine you put it on. What matters is that you reproduced another company's logo and then tried to pass off a replacement part as OEM when it's not.
• I contacted their legal dept. because I didn't want to screen print a bunch of bags, post the pics online, then have Kirby tell me to stop. I've worked in advertising, I respect trademarks and brands, so that's why I contacted them first.
• I know a couple of Kirby dealers who are interested in selling these bags. However, they'll lose their dealerships if they sell improperly branded Kirby replacement parts.
• You're right that there are all sorts of illegally sanctioned items, like Chevy doormats or T-Shirts, that use someone else's brand without permission. Lots of stuff flies under the radar. However, if you started making Chevy auto parts and put the Chevy logo on them, you'll definitely hear from GM's lawyers.
• Some companies are very aggressive about this. Monster Cable, the speaker wire company, is notorious for harassing anyone who uses the word "Monster." They once sued a mom and pop dry cleaning company called "Monster Dry Cleaning." Imagine what they would do to someone making replacement wires with the Monster logo?

The reason why vacuum cleaner companies put their logo on their bags is because it's the best way to protect their revenue for OEM replacement parts. They can't patent the actual bag, so they put their logo all over it. Copy that design with their logo and they can shut you down for a trademark violation, not a patent violation.


Maybe Tom Gasko can shed more light on this subject. I am sure he knows far more than I do about the history of brands going after bojack suppliers that put OEM logos on their parts.


Post# 411055 , Reply# 28   6/30/2019 at 15:09 (1,733 days old) by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Hey Les, post your materials!

There is no reason to have a private conversation about this.

I thought the whole point of this forum was to get help from other enthusiasts, not hide information under the guise that it's somehow proprietary? I am more than happy to post all of the materials in my bag design, including the cost of every part and the supplier.

So, the ball is in your court, Les. What spring did you use? Where did you buy it? What did it cost? What other bag-related materials and secrets have you discovered? Post it on here and I'll post my entire design, including the corduroy, bag spring, trim and zipper. It's really no big deal. But I don't like this idea of hiding info. That's bad vacuum cleaner Karma. I'm not doing any of this for the money because there is no money to be made in this. My only goal is to not LOSE money. My time is money, so anything (or anyone) who can help make this bag project easier is appreciated. Anyone who plays "hide the info," is not.


Post# 411057 , Reply# 29   6/30/2019 at 15:59 (1,733 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 411058 , Reply# 30   6/30/2019 at 16:19 (1,733 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Funny

lesinutah's profile picture
Hear the comments begin.

I have made a reproduction bag. I have sold a reproduction bag. You have not made or sold a bag and you want me to give you advice that I know.
I, got the material off of Amazon from a wholesaler in New York. I figured out the springs on my own. The fact that you want to know where I got the springs is funny. I will tell you if you buy 250 Kirby will sell you the springs. I will not tell you where I got the springs.

It's funny, all the people in the thread the Mach or have a strong opinion are the same people that do not have a 505 all original vacuum. The 505 is the most collectible and sod after Kirby the is made.

So if you want to know the laws and the rules consult a lawyer. I have talked to lawyers patent lawyers. I'm well aware of the legal ramifications. If you advise an attorney he could enlighten you in the same subject.

So my opinion is my opinion what I know is what I know. if you think I'm going to give you any knowledge or expertise on how to make or produce the bag you're wrong. I spent 7 months over $500 finding everything out for myself. I was I just was trying to help you understand that making a bag is a little more time intensive than you believe.
I am not posting anymore in this thread or commenting I've said what I need to say. I wish you luck.

LES



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