Thread Number: 38429  /  Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
Kirby D50 rebuild/restoration...Help with motor?
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Post# 408929   4/30/2019 at 23:50 (1,821 days old) by Superocd (PNW US)        

Hey all, I have been busy for the past couple of weeks and my D50 has been dissected down to the armature while it was waiting for front and rear bearings and brushes to be installed.

Well, I installed the brushes and the bearings (the front bearing plate was replaced as a whole, since it wasn't much more in cost than just the new front bearing and I reasoned that it would be easier just to replace it as a unit). It was uneventful except for the part where I slid the front bearing/plate assembly onto the shaft. A small ring popped out of the front of the bearing plate. I managed to get it into the recess but every time I spun the armature, this ring wanted to rotate out of its recess.

I got to thinking that the fluted ring that goes right behind the fan (this is included with all replacement OEM Kirby Amodel fan kits) would have to sit in this recess, and the ring that came with the front hearing plate assembly was preventing it from going in, so I took it out. I figured that the ring was designed for metal fan assemblies but I could be wrong. I temporarily reassembled the fancase to the motor unit to make sure it ran. It did and sounded good, but it made a spooling sound as it spun up, almost like a turbo spooling up, which concerned me. After it was up to speed, and when it wound down, nothing sounded amiss. This was the case for low speed (nozzle) and high speed (hose).

At first I thought that the fan was not tight enough, since a loose fan could very well make a turbo spooling sound so I checked (it was tight already). I checked the commutator and brushes while it was running, there was minimal arcing (albeit a bit more evident on high speed). Since the fan and hub were tight, I am at a loss as to what the cause of the sound could be from. I will say that the armature did not rotate as fluid as my other Kirby machines once the new bearings were installed, but then again I'm guessing that it may take some time to break them in. I don't think it has anything to do with the brushes as I've replaced the brushes in my Avalir and Heritage II and haven't had a "turbo spool" sound (however, I did not replace the bearings in those machines as the bearings were still in good shape).

Any ideas as to what the "turbo spool" sound might be caused by?



Post# 408931 , Reply# 1   5/1/2019 at 02:38 (1,820 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Likely the bearings are being squeezed too tight. Like... there's thrust force being applied parallel to the motor shaft. Would explain why it's not easy to turn. Not sure how it's held together, so I can't elaborate.

Post# 408966 , Reply# 2   5/1/2019 at 18:12 (1,820 days old) by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

What is this 'fluted ring' you speak of and where are you placing it during assembly? Improper assembly could result in excess thrust on the bearings, causing the noise you describe. A picture of what you have would be helpful.
I assume the rear bearing was seated fully and the grease washer and spring fingers were reinstalled like original...
The brushes, of new, will need some time to seat fully, so try to use low speed as much as possible during break-in to reduce sparking.


Post# 408976 , Reply# 3   5/1/2019 at 21:11 (1,820 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
The bearings behind the fan assembly if it's spun to tight that's more than likely the bearing are not spinning or are dry. There are tabs on bearing plate pushed in holds the bearings in place. But in front of the bearing is a wax washer ring. The washer that's wavy ring on bottom of the armature if it's not seated correctly it's going to make a funny noise. I'd put money on issue with bearing plate not staying in place or sticking.
Just a heads up make sure armature fan isn't hitting wires on coil.
Les


Post# 409048 , Reply# 4   5/3/2019 at 17:59 (1,818 days old) by superocd (PNW US)        
Sorry for the late reply...

I've taken pictures of the small ring (which came out of the fan side of the front bearing/plate assembly as I slid it over the armature shaft) and the larger, fluted ring (which is what is typically included in OEM Kirby fan kits).

It doesn't make sense to me to install both the small ring and the fluted ring due to friction. Installing the small ring alone obviously leaves zero clearance between the rear of the fan and the front bearing plate. However, I get sufficient clearance just installing the fluted ring and leaving out the ring which popped out of the front bearing plate assembly. The only thing is that I am not sure if this is correct.

Should I install, in order from back to forward of the shaft, this small ring, the fluted ring and then the fan?


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Post# 409053 , Reply# 5   5/3/2019 at 18:38 (1,818 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Fan

lesinutah's profile picture
If you have your old fan flip it over stick it next to fan your installing. I think the flat washer goes on front of fan underneath the spindle.
L


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Post# 409054 , Reply# 6   5/3/2019 at 18:40 (1,818 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Diagrams

lesinutah's profile picture
I have exploded diagrams from 505 to avalir. This is entire d50 diagrams. The bulk or quantity is the amount a dealer can order.
When I'm in doubt these come in handy.
Les


Post# 409129 , Reply# 7   5/6/2019 at 07:34 (1,815 days old) by bikerray (Middle Earth)        

bikerray's profile picture
If you look at the back of the original metal fan you will notice that the shaft extends down from the back of the fan. That small spacer goes between the metal shaft of the old metal fan and the bearings.

If you are replacing the metal fan with an amodel (white plastic) fan then you don't need the small spacer. You replace that with the new spacer (the one you call fluted) that came with the new fan in the package.


Post# 409131 , Reply# 8   5/6/2019 at 10:53 (1,815 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Check

lesinutah's profile picture
I have noticed there are 2 versions of 11 blade fan. There is one for 505-512 513-3cb. The older one has a longer shaft on the back.
Les


Post# 409135 , Reply# 9   5/6/2019 at 13:05 (1,815 days old) by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
Lesinutah

kirbyclassiciii's profile picture
Les,

The correct model range would be:
505 to 515, takes part no. 118978S (longer shaft)
516 to Legend II, takes part no. 119078S (shorter shaft)

~Ben


Post# 409139 , Reply# 10   5/6/2019 at 19:30 (1,815 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Ben

lesinutah's profile picture
I was just thinking 3 amp to 4 amp motors is why I put 513. It probably is but I'm not positive as 513 4 amp is different than 519 4 amp motor. The motor housing changed on 515 moving nozzle bracket and actually had a seal around fan opening on motor housing.
Les


Post# 409159 , Reply# 11   5/6/2019 at 23:26 (1,815 days old) by superocd (PNW US)        
@bikerray - As I suspected!

I was pretty sure that it had something to do with the fan type but wasn't 100% confident in my hypothesis. Unfortunately, in my case, there was no metal fan to replace -- if there was a metal fan in this, I'd definitely keep it (barring significant damage)! I think it was serviced sometime in the 80s, maybe early 90s as it had been replaced with a grey plastic (Lexan?) fan. I admit, I was eager getting the floor nozzle off to see what was hiding behind. Oh, well...

@lesinutah Thanks for the diagrams! I have searched high and low for D50/D80 technical manuals or diagrams, but couldn't find any. This will be helpful if I ever need parts in the future.

Now that I have this figured out, I'm just waiting on my commutator stone from Amazon (and time, which I never seem to have enough of, lol). All I have left to do is clean up the commutator, give it a final polish, and reassemble. Unlike my Avalir, Heritage II Legend, Royal, JCPenney Hoover Convertible and Sanitaire SC886, this one won't be stored away in the closet under my stairs -- I'll have it proudly displayed in my foyer. I might bring out the Avlir and display it next to the D50, but I'll have to ask my wife, lol.

Thanks for all your help!


Post# 409185 , Reply# 12   5/7/2019 at 19:45 (1,814 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
Glad to help you out. The d80 and d50 other than the wide fork on d80 and narrow fork on d50 colors and logo on headlight inside and out they are the same machine. This and heritages with 13 inch nozzle are the best deep cleaning Kirby's.
I'm slow getting around but I have a 519 everything is blue square emtor everything. I put a tradition front end on it making wide wheels in front and back I'm putting a cr1 motor and coil in 519 HEPA bag conversion. I have my d80 which I'm debating keeping d50 hood with Kirby logo on it. I have a tradition front end and wide rear end so bigger wheels all around. I have a heritage 2 13 that is a heritage with 13 inch nozzle. I plan to see what of those 3 vacuums all very similar being wide wheels to access all 8 heights on toe touch. The motors are all similar power. I have seen versus battles where d80 hasn't been beat. I'll test it out against similar vacuums seeing which Kirby is the best deep suction cleaner.
I know avalirs have highest cfm but that's on a 16 inch nozzle the 13 inch is hard to beat.
Basically the vacuum runs better than it looks. It and d80 are best deep cleaners Kirby ever made. Enjoy your vacuum.
Les



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