Thread Number: 38068
/ Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
Kirby Sentria II vs Miele Canister
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|Post# 405630   2/18/2019 at 11:39 (411 days old) by kirbybb (Ohio)  || |
Hello vacuum enthusiasts. I'm a new member here and so far I've found some pretty good info. I'm not a collector and have no intention to become one. I currently have a Miele C3 Soft Carpet canister and a Kirby Sentria II. We had a Hoover Platinum upright but the smell of our pet hair would fill the room every time we would clean. My research led me to Miele being the best at filtering and being a clean air machine.
From first use I didn't seem impressed with the suction but research on YouTube led me to learn about air flow and how Kirby is a monster at moving air. I found a used Sentria II for $100 with the shampooer included. I bought some of the charcoal activated bags for use with odor control and that setup works pretty well.
I feel like the Kirby out cleans the Miele by miles. Does anyone have any CFM ratings from a Miele C3 canister to confirm? For now I'm keeping both machines because the kirby didn't come with any hose cleaning attachments. I don't have room for multiple cleaners so I need to decide if the Kirby stays or Miele stays. Currently we have more carpet than anything but that will likely be 50/50 over the next couple of years.
|Post# 405634 , Reply# 1   2/18/2019 at 12:03 (411 days old) by robsmith1977 (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)  || |
I dont have CFM ratings for you, but my guess on this would be to ditch the kirby and keep the Miele. The Miele should have a power nozzle with it? I believe you can purchase activated charcoal filters or bags for the Miele which will greatly reduce or eliminate the pet hair odor while you're using it. I have never heard anyone say that they DIDN'T like the Miele's cleaning abilities. Also, I wanted to mention from my own personal experience that as long as you have pets in the house, you will have odor coming from your vacuum cleaner unless you're willing to use something like a Rainbow or something similar that uses water as a filter.
|Post# 405635 , Reply# 2   2/18/2019 at 12:06 (411 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)  || |
Yes the Kirby Sentria far exceeds the Miele's ability at carpet cleaning. You already know that the Sentria does a fantastic job of containing pet odors with the charcoal bags.
You can get a complete hose with all attachments for your Kirby on ebay, however many Kirby owners like myself have found that changing the Kirby over from carpet cleaning to hose cleaning mode to be somewhat cumbersome, so we also keep a small canister vacuum around to use for above the floor cleaning with the hose. I use the very small Eureka Mighty Mite canister for hard floor and above floor cleaning.
|Post# 405637 , Reply# 3   2/18/2019 at 12:15 (411 days old) by kirbybb (Ohio)  || |
Yes my Miele has the SEB 228 soft carpet electro brush and while it does clean well it sounds and feels like there is very little airflow coming from the brush compared to the Kirby. I love how the tools are integrated into the Miele and it is very easy to switch from bare floor or attachment cleaning with the Miele. If I did have the attachments with the Kirby I can see how that would be a PIA. I currently use the active charcoal filter with the Miele and it greatly reduces the odor compared to our old Hoover. I also am considering if we buy new carpet soon the manufactures will void your warranty if you use non-certified vacuums. I'm shocked that Miele and other high end brands aren't on those lists. We are looking at the Lifeproof carpet at Home Depot.
|Post# 405646 , Reply# 4   2/18/2019 at 16:43 (410 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)  || |
When it comes to pure carpet cleaning power the Kirby is the better of the two machines looking at vaclab's tests he's gotten 137 nozzle CFM from his Sentria II.
I've recently gotten a Sentria II myself but haven't done the measurements.
I've tested a few Miele canisters and so has vaclab
Miele C3 cat and dog (charcoal filter): 64.73 nozzle CFM
Miele C3 Brilliant: 67.31 Nozzle CFM
Miele Solaris w/ SEB217: 80.15 (brushroll on)
Miele Calypso: 69.35 CFM (brushroll on)
|Post# 405649 , Reply# 5   2/18/2019 at 17:05 (410 days old) by kirbybb (Ohio)  || |
I really appreciate that Blackheart. I think for now I'll try to keep both machines. I'll vacuum with the Kirby and do other above the floor cleaning with the Miele. If we end up going with more vinyl plank instead of carpet then the Miele will probably be the star of the show.
|Post# 405652 , Reply# 6   2/18/2019 at 20:34 (410 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)  || |
I'm sorry to burst anyone's bubbles, but no machine is perfect.
My neighbors have a Kirby and he was very pissed she bought a Dyson in 2010 or so. So she made him vacuum with the Kirby to his heart's content. When the thought the room was completely clean and nothing else would come out of the carpet, she turned on the Dyson with a clean dirt cup and the cup *filled* with *dirt* (not just carpet fibers). She said he hasn't said a word about her Dyson since then.
I also happen to have a few vacuum cleaners. Just about 12 or so, so by no means an extensive collection like many here.
One of the machines I have is the Royal Everlast 8300, which many say is very close in cleaning abilities to a Kirby -- of course, given the population of this club, there's disagreement, some say the 8300 is better than Kirbies, some say the opposite. Which we will kind of ignore for now, all we need to remember is that this is one of the machines people claim are best at cleaning carpets.
I also have several other canisters, including a 20-year old Miele White Pearl and a more recent Miele S8 UniQ.
The thing to remember with the Miele machines is that no matter which canister you have or how much water lift or cubic feet of air per minute it has, the performance depends critically on the nozzle. A pure suction nozzle may clean some carpets well, particularly if the kind of dirt depends on higher pressure to dislodge, but a power nozzle makes a big difference depending on the carpet in question. I happen to have the turbo nozzle (air-driven), the self-adjusting nozzle and the height-adjustable nozzle (SEB-236, I think).
For most (but not all) the kinds of rugs and carpets I have, the height-adjustable kind is best.
And yes, if you are wondering, I can come back with the Miele after the Royal and it *will* get more dirt out of the carpet.
The thing many here miss is that they just want to win the argument. You use your vacuum cleaner, and I come with mine after that and I get more dirt, and we're done.
Well, the last one will always win.
If I come back with the first vacuum cleaner again, it will vacuum more stuff.
If I come back with a third or a forth machine, they will suck up even more dirt.
No machine will remove *all* dirt.
What people miss here is that for any given carpet, a machine will only brush and vacuum in a particular way, and *any* machine that comes with even a slightly different brushing and vacuuming combination will extract more dirt until it can't do it anymore, then any other machine which brushes slightly differently will reset the carpet fibers in a different way, and even the first machine will vacuum more stuff up again.
Carpets can hold more than 3 times their weight in dirt. I think I've heard people say 8, not sure, I'm getting old and forgetful anyway.
So, have you been vacuuming every day? Maybe one or two new vacuums will take out more dirt and stop.
Have you been mostly ignoring your carpet, vacuuming once a week for years?
We can show up at your home with 12 different vacuum cleaners and cycle thru all of them and every one of them will suck up more dirt, and at the end of the 12 machines, we can come back to the first one, and, wouldn't you know it, it will suck up more dirt that 11 other machines *also* left behind.
Even a Dyson. I can attest to that, I have 3: a DC23 TurbineHead, a DC41 Animal and a V8 Absolute (the hand-held cordless thing). A few months back I was telling this story to a friend who cleans homes and she cleaned mine. She was very surprised that the V8 power brush was able to suck up stuff after the Royal, and that's not even a powerful vacuum or a particularly aggressive power head compared to any Royal, much less a 10-amp thing like mine.
Also, *please* be aware that some carpets are more tenacious holding onto dirt than others. I know this because I used to have a German Shepherd Dog living with us, a lot of rugs of different materials and styles and my home is carpeted in what I assume was a relatively cheap olefin carpet which is very stain resistant but holds onto dirt and gets matted easily. It's now about 17 years old, and it has more "ugglied out" than worn out.
So, different styles of vacuum cleaners give people a different appearance and impression. Even though in my situation the Miele machines *clean* better, the Royal and Sanitaire give a better impression in case someone insists on seeing "vacuum lines" for example. Like Dave Barry said a few decades ago, you don't even need a vacuum cleaner for that, if you don't want to vacuum right before visitors are showing up, run a rake over your carpets and you'll get vacuum lines.
I care about clean.
Just like cameras (the best camera is the one you have with you when something you want a photograph of happens), the best vacuum cleaner is the one you use.
I use different machines for different things and different reasons. Right now, as I am getting older, my back tends to hurt or hurt more more often. So any machine that is heavy to carry up and down stairs, or is hard to push around will be less likely to get used by me and it won't clean my carpets no matter how good it is.
Still, sometimes I use the Sanitaire or Royal. When I feel like it and don't mind the noise. The adaptors for above floor cleaning for both the Sanitaire and Royal are a pain in the ass to use, and the cleaning power is pathetic, particularly for the Sanitaire, although it might have something to do with the smaller diameter hose.
I tend to use the Dysons for a quick clean around the home, particularly the DC-41 (it's a "ball" design) because it hurts my back less, and the DC-23 for above floor cleaning.
The Aerus Platinum is quiet but really annoying because of the design of the wheels, it keeps getting stuck around furniture and the power nozzle is not the most practical if you are vacuuming around and want to raise the wand, move something around, clean for a few seconds and repeat to put the furniture back. The thing keeps falling down.
The SEBO upright is a decent cleaner but middle of the road in quietness. Also, like most uprights, not very practical when cleaning above the floor, despite the fact that all you have to do is pull the wand/hose out, use it and put it back. If you are not careful, the upright will fall down when you pull the hose just a bit too far, for example.
The SEBO canister (Airbelt D4 Premium) is a nice machine, relatively quiet, cleans well. Not my favorite power nozzle because I have other machines to compare it to, but most people would be happy to get one as a gift if they are not among the people who had the opportunity to use different machines and compare it to.
But in any case, my *favorite* machines are the Miele White Pearl and S8. The S8 is more powerful and quieter (even though it uses the same amount of power). The White Pearl has bigger wheels and follows one around more easily.
But if you wanna know the truth, even the Oreck Magnesium and the Riccar Supralite get a lot of use and love in my home. Particularly when I need to vacuum and my back is hurting.
Because any vacuum will do a better job when you use it than not vacuuming.
Even a Dyson V8 has its uses around my home.
Pick whatever you like best for the most use, if you *have* to pick just one machine.
Or, like me, you might end up with about 12 different machines, each one best for a particular application.
Just make sure to think about your situation and if it will change in the future -- for example, most people don't mind having a decent upright machine to clean just the carpets and clean the hardwood with a broom/swiffer and dust everything with a feather duster and/or swiffer. Not a very good option for me, I have allergies. We need everything to be *vacuumed* in this home, including curtains, furniture etc. I have yet to meet/use an upright that would do that easily and efficiently here. And that's to say nothing about the rugs we used to have and were a pain to clean with my uprights because they don't have suction control, and at a certain point, when our dog got very sick before she died, we have put the rugs rolled up in the basement -- one of these days, we'll bring them back upstairs. Even different machines (upright or canisters) have different accessories that might or might not be useful to *you* despite being very useful to someone *else*.
Give it a lot of thought about you, your home and the people who live there and are likely (or unlikely) to *vacuum*. Instead of just saying "I have a such-and-such machine" to impress others.
|Post# 405661 , Reply# 7   2/18/2019 at 22:12 (410 days old) by rivstg1 (colorado springs)  || |
Interesting question you pose....well, I have both machines as well so I think I can offer something here. The Kirby most DEFINITELY will out pull(air) the MIele, on carpet or hard floor....and, its much more versatile ( carpet, hard floor , blower, shampooer etc) and weighs the same as the Miele. The Miele is much quieter and has variable speeds for different situations and I believe is cleaner in its emissions than even the Kirby with a Hepa ( i have seen the particle counter at zero on the Kirby though). Downsides of Miele? its bags/filters are more expensive than Kirby...especially for how small the bags are, and if there are repairs to be made, the Miele will cost more ( the hose can cost $129 for Miele, $39 for the Kirby), but Kirby will require occasional belt changes .....its a upright vs canister style comparison for you to decide. I do enjoy using the Miele for above floor cleaning.....till I gave it to my Mother, I don't find the Kirby THAT much of a hassle to change over from upright to canister mode, but it is more involved than the Miele. If you don't already have a powered power nozzle for the Miele, factor in that cost since that is needed to even come close to the carpet cleaning ability of the Kirby. Hope that helps.
|Post# 405665 , Reply# 8   2/18/2019 at 23:59 (410 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)  || |
Dyson DC25 Slo Mo Extreme Edge Cleaning
Kirby Sentria 2 Slo Mo Extreme Edge Cleaning With Bonus Sand
The Dyson DC25 sand pickup was the worst in my sand pickup test (12%)
The Kirby Sentria 2 was very good, even using a paper bag (58%)
Dyson DC25 nozzle airflow = 57 CFM, agitation is very poor.
Kirby Sentria 2 nozzle airflow = 137 CFM, agitation is medium high.
My 2012 Miele Callisto nozzle airflow tests at 69.3 CFM.
If you have a pile flow through carpet, high airflow plus reasonable agitation works best. Low CFM bagless machines simply won't cut it.
|Post# 405667 , Reply# 9   2/19/2019 at 02:29 (410 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)  || |
Bill (VacLab) said:
«Dyson Beats A Kirby, I'd Like To See That...»
By all means, Bill, please suit yourself -- all you have to do is to show up in MA, I am pretty sure my neighbor will be more than glad to make you vacuum her living room with her Kirby and then come after you with her Dyson from 2010. I'm pretty sure she will love to see you flabbergasted just as she loved to shut up her husband. If you care, she has a berber carpet, over 20 years old. And cats.
I have no idea which Kirby she has or how well maintained it is. But hey, it's always nice to see someone seeing it with their own eyes, eh?
When you show up, I will also be more than glad to let you see any of my vacuums beat any of my other vacuums in any order you want to see it happen.
I have no skin on this game. I have more than 12 vacuums, which, again, is nothing compared to the people here, the (perhaps) only difference is how I ended up with all my vacuums. I came from the appliances side of this site because I wondered if there were better vacuums.
Each time I saw many people praise one vacuum cleaner or another, I eventually got very curious about it, went out and bought one, new in the box and tried it on my own carpets, rugs, furniture, floor etc.
Not *your* home, carpets, rugs, furniture etc.
Just like for a little while, I was in denial and surprised when people told me that a particular washer or dishwasher didn't work well for them when it worked really well for me. Or when I had a particular machine that did not work well at all for me but they claimed it worked really well for them.
Seeing is believing.
I started believing other people when I visited some who had *exactly* the same equipment I had, but either because the water chemistry in their particular location was different than mine, or the things they were trying to clean were not exactly the same things or same level of soil as mine, the machines did not perform the same way as mine. Sometimes they worked better than mine, sometimes much worse than mine.
So, when I showed up at this site, I already had some idea things might be different.
For example, the carpet. Some carpets have very airtight backing, which makes some vacuum cleaners more appropriate than others. I have several vacuum cleaners that are excellent at cleaning but can't clean well the rugs that I have that make the vacuum bog down even at the maximum height.
Every time I see people here be so freaking sure that *their* preferred vacuum is the *best* vacuum I keep adding in my head "for the particular setting you have" or else I may lose all respect for the person in question.
Every time I see tests on youtube, I keep thinking of other tests that particular configuration might fail badly.
So, sure, bring your DC25 here too. I dunno how you got it, maybe someone discarded it because it was bad and ill maintained? Maybe you bought it new? Either way, it wasn't the *best* cleaning Dyson by any organization that bothered to test it, but since I've seen a V8 clean dirt left behind by a Sanitaire and a Royal, I wouldn't doubt that a DC25 might under some circumstances suck up dirt left by some other vacuum(s).
I am not selling *any* vacuums and I'm not here to win a pissing contest or *any* contests.
These are my experiences with my own equipment that I got brand new from the store(s), in my own home with my own carpet, rugs, bare floor, furniture etc.
Each brand and model of rug or carpet has a best configuration for being cleaned. Some Persian rugs can only be vacuumed with pure suction, some carpets really benefit from agitation, some carpets can be best cleaned with strong suction (from a central vac, for example), some carpets benefit more from a very high volume of air instead.
Just ask anyone with a Hoover Convertible, for example. For some, it was the absolutely *best* vacuum to clean *their* carpets and rugs. For others, it was, meh, a decent vacuum, but they wouldn't write home about it. I know some people who hated theirs and were much happier with something different.
Not too hard to find three different opinions about the same machine. Without finding out if the machine was brand new, or well maintained, or on its last legs, one can't say much about it. One can't say much about it either or be too sure about anything if one doesn't know which particular carpets or rugs they were trying to clean.
I, for example, would absolutely *love* to know what freaking carpet the builder put in my own home. Because I intend to avoid it like the plague when I rip it out of my floors and get something new.
Until then, you or almost anyone is welcome to come here and bring your machines and we'll have a go at it.
I'll make this even more interesting. We will use a SEBO duo brush machine and we'll brush duo-P or Capture in, wait for it to dry (about 30-60 minutes) and we'll use several different machines in different areas and/or different sequences.
I can tell you right now that a Sanitaire or a Royal 8300 can not remove everything. Or any other vacuum cleaner I have. Different sequences of vacuums will produce different results, but none of them is enough all by itself.
You ask me today if I were forced to choose only one vacuum cleaner, I might say Miele. Tomorrow I may want a SEBO or a Dyson or a Hoover or anything else.
But I believed people here each time I've heard that something was the absolutely very best, and I bought a new one, and well, wouldn't you know it, it had pretty good features and pretty bad features and everything in between.
What is good or adequate in my home could be the best for you and the worst for someone else.
And I'm also pretty jaded by the way people pick and choose every test just to win the argument.
Then again, I am a computer geek, and I've seen this over and over and over again in my field. Huge fights about which operating system or CPU + disk + memory + video card configuration(s) is/are best, and what makes a particular game have a fantastic frame rate, and when you go visit real people who use the computers for *real* business, what are they using to make their Photoshop or Premiere or FinalCut Pro perform their best? Not the "best" configuration, because their software and whatever they need to do for work run much faster and better with some other configuration.
So, I see your videos. I believe you when you claim that those are the results you get/got.
And I can tell you right now that that is not the same thing that happens in my own home, and I'm willing to bet it's the particular carpet, rugs and dirt I have here. I *could* poke fun at y'all and tell you those are not the proper ways to run the test(s) or even the proper test(s) to run, but hey, you are enjoying yourselves and to me that counts for something.
On the other hand, I'd like to see you all be honest here. Stop trying to shout people down with "the most important/impressive thing is inches of water lift!" or "airflow!" or "agitation!", because none of them in and by themselves can do shit. You can brush/sweep your carpet until it wears out and not remove a grain of sand without suction/airflow. You can beat a rug until your arms fall off and it will still have dirt in them without airflow/suction. Some carpets clean better with very high suction, some carpets with very high airflow. Carpets glued to the floor need different vacuum cleaners than carpets that are tacked around the baseboards and left floating on a pad and can be lifted by a cleaner. That one I found out when I was helping a friend clean the carpet in her apartment so the landlord could inspect it, and I brought a machine with a good beater bar (Sanitaire) and it got almost nothing off the carpet, and made a lot of noise and felt like it was going to break. Went home, got the SEBO upright, cleaned like a dream.
It's pointless and petty to come here and scream at people that only Kirbys, or Sanitaires or Dysons (or any other brand, really) are the best and everyone else is dumb and worthless of being listened to.
Each person here has a favorite or at least the potential to have one or a couple of favorites. This is a club for collectors, and each person has a right to be here and have their favorite(s), it doesn't mean that anyone's dick is bigger than anyone else's or that I or you or anyone can pee farther than anyone else.
Each person here should be capable and more than happy to say "this are the results I've got under these circumstances" and be happy when it can be replicated by others and be a decent enough human being and humble enough to understand when the circumstances are not the same the results might vary.
I see some here doing that *much* better than others.
Brandon (Kirbybb) came here and asked a question. I gave my answer, which, given that the premise was "I can only keep one machine" or "I'd like to keep only one machine", my best answer is to think about everything. Not many people will like to clean the entire home with a Kirby converted to canister mode, although the ones that do really enjoy it. Not many people will like to have only a canister machine, even if everyone else says it's the best machine.
A few years ago we used to have a very vociferous person here that used to say Kirby were the best vacuum cleaners, he used to sell a bunch back in the day etc etc etc. Then one day, he came back saying he got rid of his Kirbys and got something much lighter because his back was acting up.
We used to have some people who disdained anyone who asked anything about ultra-light machines, like the Orecks or the Riccar Supralites. Until they used one or the other in certain situations.
I, for one, am very glad that I have not badmouthed particular machines or claimed one or another were the very best. I do not want to be in the same situation my neighbor's husband was.
Anybody who doesn't mind looking like a fool in a few years when something else makes their favorite look bad in some particularly weird situation, suit yourself, we'll be here in the corner. Maybe we'll laugh at you or maybe we'll have pity or feel sad for you.
But I'm telling you right now, there is absolutely no need for that. Respect others and their choices. Answer things the best you can. And resign yourself to the fact that you may be right sometimes, wrong sometimes, somewhere in between most of the time.
Long and short of it, I stand by what I've said. I've bought more than 10 vacuum cleaners based on what people here were jumping up and down and shouting about and they were wrong for my situation. Based on that alone, I'm not willing to buy a Kirby, brand new or refurbished or even picked up for free from the curb. It *might* be the very best machine for my carpet, but I'm suspicious it will not be the very best for *everything* in my home and I'm sure (having seen how much they weigh at my local vacuum shops) that I will not be using it given my back. For those of you who can carry one up and down stairs and push it, more power to you and enjoy it while you can.
I will remind you all, however, to ask how many times a Hoover Convertible has won cleaning contests.
And no, I do not have one.
I just respect that that was the result for that particular configuration during the contest, and I think to myself "I wonder if it would do better or worse with my situation at home?"
|Post# 405669 , Reply# 10   2/19/2019 at 02:53 (410 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)  || |
You seem and come across as a Hippocrates. You bring up vaclabs quotes and mock them. You follow a tangent on what you believe is superior and blow alot more hot air trying to sound articulate and educated.
You said everyone is entitled to their opinion and bash vaclabs for his opinion. The Kirby will beat a Dyson. It has anywhere from 20-50 cfm more than Dyson.
So before you blow all this hot air and call other people out and then turn around and cut down others opinions with your beliefs
Stop chasing your tail.
Seriously if you want credibility don't cast stones when you live in a glass house.
Don't mock people's opinions and right after pull out your self righteous horn promoting your ideals.
If you like to blow hot air go for a hot air balloon ride. If not sit down you backseat hippocricyal fool.
Save your hot air don't respond. Truth is I didn't read your whole post. Say what you want but nobody is going to ready it.
|Post# 405670 , Reply# 11   2/19/2019 at 03:32 (410 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)  || |
Les in Utah, I am rolling on the floor laughing my ass off.
Honey, suit yourself, either you read my entire post or you didn't.
My neighbor's Kirby was out cleaned by her Dyson.
If her husband was more knowledgeable, he would have run the Kirby again and proved her Dyson had not cleaned up everything. Which you would know if you read things here even if you didn't/don't read my posts.
I am not mocking Bill. I am telling people, including Bill, that what they are doing does not work everywhere for every situation.
There are *plenty* of vacuum cleaners outselling high-airflow machines because they work better for some situations where high-airflow means nothing. There are plenty of high-airflow machines outselling high-water lift machines because there are situations where water-lift means nothing.
There are very few people in this club that have nothing to lose no matter what the results are -- most here are married to a brand or two.
I am not. I do not care one whit if you or anyone likes me or likes my machines or my way of thinking. I tell it exactly how things work in my own home and invited others to come here see for themselves and bring their machines if they feel like it.
The *only* thing I want back is that they accept whatever happens as truth. *I* don't believe any vacuum cleaner will win in all situations, and I've seen enough with my own eyes to believe if you run three vacuum cleaners in any sequence, the third one will still pick up dirt.
Many tests people talk about here have good and bad in them. They may test one thing well and leave a bunch of other things up in the air. Bill's tests are no exception nor should they be. He keeps picking tests he likes and that's fine with me. But just like many others picked up a tester or two and claimed all other machines were crap because they were lower on that particular test, sooner or later we find out the failure modes of that test too -- case in point, all the people who were miffed to find out during a contest that despite their machine getting a pretty decent "10" or whatever it was on the Kirby demo tool, some machine with much less suction and much less airflow (like one version or another of a Hoover Convertible) won the contest.
If you came to any of my posts expecting to hear that one machine was much better than another, you will be very disappointed. Every. Single. Time.
Because I don't believe there is one unless one fixes all the variables: what carpet/rug are you using? Is it glued to the floor or mounted in the same standard configuration we use in USA? Among other things.
So, yeah, I could tell you a bunch of things you or I don't know about how others run their tests. Build a slightly different box than Bill's, and your measurements might be very different, for example. I used to have a rug with a rubber backing that I doubt very much his beloved Kirby could suck flour thru (or any other vacuum, for that matter). That would be a pointless test to run in that case. Even if the carpet is very porous and lets the machine suck the sand or flour thru, how much of it is left *in* the carpet once it was sucked off the floor for example?
A lot of very well respected organizations also make big mistakes, this is not exclusive to anyone here. Many organizations have pointed out over and over again, for example, that one *marks* the rug/carpet sample and vacuums to the marks and only what is within the marked area is counted as tested.
A lot of people, Bill included, lifts the rug and dumps some stuff in an area that we have no idea where it is, vacuums an unmarked area and lifts the carpet to show results. Because I tend to believe people here, I am willing to bet he is doing things the right way, but *anyone* in an organization that will need to *certify* that the tests were run in a fair and repeatable way will ding Bill and others for that. If I can't repeat the test, what is the point?
To win arguments?
Well, good luck with that.
I don't care if you don't like me or what I have to say. It's supposedly a free country. But I'm warning anyone who wants to or would like to hear that what people say is only applicable if you can replicate things the way people are telling you.
And given how many people here say that a Kirby, a Royal and a Sanitaire are very comparable in cleaning, even if not exactly the same, I can tell you that they will never clean completely in my situation. My situation is unlikely to be unique given that it's a very common carpet as far as I can tell.
|Post# 405677 , Reply# 12   2/19/2019 at 10:08 (410 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)  || |
I have no idea how any vacuum performs on berber carpet, which you neglected to mention until reply #9, which would have been helpful.
Since I am a scientist, degreed Mathematician and computer programmer (application packager/scripter), I run my channel tests in very strict manner. And I rebuild all of my machines when necessary.
I don't really like testimonials, I'd rather see proper measurements.
Want to see a Kirby lose to a $25 Bissell? And then win again?
It would be highly desirable to know the following things rather than just claim vacuum "A" is better than vacuum "B".
1) make and model
2) brushroll type
3) carpet/backing type
Your first claim didn't have any of this info and is very disturbing. Is the homeowner aware that Kirby makes many different brushrolls?
I have over 460 videos mostly categorized in playlists, so take a peek at what interests you.
And just an FYI. Airflow is what picks up DRY particulate and moves it into a receptacle, not suction. Airflow along with the appropriate agitation is what cleans. CFM is cubic feet per minute, or you could say a volume of air (with dirt contained therein) moving at a particular speed. Suction only attempts to keep the air mass flowing when doing work (cyclones, long hoses, etc.)
|Post# 405678 , Reply# 13   2/19/2019 at 10:36 (410 days old) by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)  || |
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|Post# 405680 , Reply# 14   2/19/2019 at 10:59 (410 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)  || |
|Post# 405683 , Reply# 15   2/19/2019 at 11:50 (410 days old) by got2bjennyg (Brunswick, Ohio, USA)  || |
Since we are tossing out anecdotal accounts-
I always thought Kirby's were overpriced, overrated, overweight machines.
I watched VacLab's youtube channel and was intrigued enough to pick up a second hand Kirby Avalir. While I still think that new kirby's are overpriced, I'm blown away by how well it cleans carpet AND hard floors. I'm a petite grandmother in her mid 50's with stairs in the house. I find the Kirby no more difficult to carry up & down the stairs than my 16 lb Sanitaire. I just use the lower handle on the Kirby- easy-peasy. The Avalir is super easy to push (my carpal tunnel syndrome appreciates that), and I do not find switching over to using the hose anymore cumbersome than going and getting a different vacuum out of the closet. The Kirby is now essentially the only vacuum I use. I regret not getting a Kirby long ago.
|Post# 405692 , Reply# 16   2/19/2019 at 17:25 (409 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell )  || |
This is a very dangerous subject on vacuum land .
I don't feel anybody's going be willing to provide mutch information.
Think you'll find the general concessions on vacuumland is that Kirby's are best vacuum. Everybody is carpet situation is different so you have to bring that into account.
But in my testing I have found that most bypass vacuums out clean Kirby's.
Now there will be 15 replies saying I am wrong. But this is what year working with vacuum has taught me. You'll find a working vacuum gauge it's a good way to sell things. You need CFM as much as you need water lift is most cases. This was my own personal test in my house.
My personal conclusion is I would rather have a central vac. My next choice would be some other canister vacuums,before I would choose any dirty air machine.
That being said a Kirby belongs and every vacuum cleaner collectors collection!
What the flame war are Begin. 🤣😂
|Post# 405702 , Reply# 17   2/19/2019 at 20:59 (409 days old) by kirbybb (Ohio)  || |
I really had no idea that my post would cause such a soap opera. No I’m not here posting “look what I have”. I was looking for honest feedback from collectors who have more knowledge than I. Sure I believe you need great airflow to move the dirt to the bag and good suction also. In my current environment the Kirby bag is getting filled faster than my Miele bag. I think the Miele has great suction but doesn’t even come close to the airflow of the Kirby. Yes my carpet is old and worn from a Golden Retriever and two toddlers. They also put in the lowest grade crap you can get when they sold this house.
If we go with new carpet soon it will be very thick and soft LifeProof carpet made with Triexta. I guess I’ll hang on to both vacs for a while.
Vaclab, I see you’re in Pickerington. I’m near Grove City. If you feel like testing the C3 soft carpet machine maybe we can figure something out. If not, no worries either.
Let the fun continue.
|Post# 405703 , Reply# 18   2/19/2019 at 21:51 (409 days old) by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)  || |
|Post# 405716 , Reply# 19   2/20/2019 at 07:23 (409 days old) by got2bjennyg (Brunswick, Ohio, USA)  || |
I have 3 dogs at this time and a toddler granddaughter that visits several times a week.
I do have some older carpet, but last year, we had new carpet installed on the staircase to the second floor, hallway and master bedroom. The newer carpet is Shaw Lifeguard carpet. It has the waterproof backing. I would never install it on a slab or concrete floor, but I absolutely love it for cleaning up kiddie and doggie messes. HOWEVER- it's not easy to vacuum. Any vacuum with any amount of suction/airflow, even when adjusted to the proper height becomes very hard to push. If I raise the height, the carpet isn't getting as clean as it should. If the vacuum has a floating head, it can become virtually "glued" to the floor. The tech drive on the Kirby works perfectly and solves this problem 100%.
I HIGHLY recommend the Shaw Lifeguard waterproof carpet for homes with kids and pets, just be aware of the potential issues with vacuuming. The Mohawk Lifeproof carpets at Home Depot have similar issues when you get into the thicker/ plusher varieties.
I have found that the scientific approach that Bill from Vaclab uses actually applies real life- at least it has for me.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO got2bjennyg's LINK
|Post# 405726 , Reply# 20   2/20/2019 at 15:55 (408 days old) by vacuumdevil (Vacuum Hell )  || |
@vaclab The older Miele S5 unit uses a different motor than the s8 platform and the c3 platform has two different motors. The chamber design of the bag is much improved in the s8/c3 body style.
I was personally at the s8 dealer launch . The nice German engineer lady explained all the differences. But those are the main ones between the s8 and the older S5.
|Post# 405728 , Reply# 21   2/20/2019 at 16:41 (408 days old) by Air-WayCharlie (USA)  || |
Another I don't think was mentioned here was the type of power nozzle used. The 236, (or current version), IMO, is far superior to the smaller one. I owned a Champagne some years ago and it came with the 236. That combination was quite a cleaning machine. I bought the smaller less powerful nozzle and was very disappointed in the performance.
I own 5 Kirbys at last count and with any vacuum cleaner there are always pros and cons. They all do the same thing: pick up dirt. It seems to always come down to what your personal preferences are. Most vac buyers are not interested in measurements, numbers, videos, CFMs, etc.--but we collectors and enthusiasts are. For the, "average", purchaser it is COST and COMFORT.
That is why I have, well, lets say about 25 at the moment!!
This post was last edited 02/20/2019 at 19:43
|Post# 405741 , Reply# 22   2/20/2019 at 23:17 (408 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)  || |
Wow I read your post. You make a point and back track over every statement you make. I have a great vacuum but it the right circumstance every vacuum fails.
I see no point in defending someone who back doors every statement you make.
I believe any vacuum can suck. It's a vacuum it's what it does. So keep up your argument. It's great. I found your points almost as valid as your back pedals.
Don't respond I'm not backtracking on that I just don't wish to waste either of any of our times.
|Post# 405789 , Reply# 23   2/22/2019 at 08:24 (407 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY)  || |
|Post# 405976 , Reply# 24   2/25/2019 at 04:24 (404 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)  || |
«You learn something (new) everyday unless you are really careful»
-- Tom Van Vleck, Multician
«Before you say something, ask yourself, "is it True?", "is it Helpful?" and "is it Kind?" and then don't say anything unless at least 2 of the 3 answers are true.»
Here's a fun tidbit: those $10 20-inch Lasko Box Fans supposedly circulate 2,500 CFM. Very low suction/pressure though, if you put it too close to a wall, it will move much *less* air. A typical forced-air furnace also moves about 2,000 CFM for a regular home and can overcome more significant "friction" because it uses a more powerful motor and it's able to generate more suction/pressure to overcome the resistance to air movement.
For vacuum cleaners specifically, pure "inches of water lift" are measured at or close to zero cubic feet/minute, which is why it's also known in the field (Transport Phenomena / Fluid Mechanics / Aerodynamics) as "sealed suction/pressure". It's only *one* datum on a (usually) curve, and the charts/graphs representing the universe of responses to that fan have way more than just one curve.
Same thing for airflow -- change the resistance even slightly, completely different airflow *and* pressure.
What people should be talking about is power, which in the case of vacuum cleaners is measured in Air Watts and, just like "horsepower", "amps", "watts", "inches of water-lift", "airflow" etc, it's another metric that can be misused and doesn't tell you much, although it's still a better metric than the previous ones, because it approximates better what people are trying to say/measure.
Remember, until a few years ago in Europe, people trying to do their housework were going to the store and picking up vacuums with the most "watts", which, in their case, was just how much the machine was *consuming* and they were paying the electric company for, but, as soon as the laws changed and limited the amount of raw power the machines could consume, a lot of manufacturers went back to the drawing board and came out with better fans that generated better airflow/suction and were better than the previous machines.
And even then, that's not always the answer either. Again, I hate to keep hitting on the same key(s), but how many times did a Hoover Convertible won contests and magazine/reviews tests? How powerful was the motor on those? How many airwatts did it develop? I seem to recall they did not develop as much airflow or suction as the Sanitaire or the Royal used in the video below.
Please keep in mind, the Dyson V8 used in the video supposedly develops up to 115 AirWatts in MAX mode (and can then run for about 6 minutes), but it can run for about 20-25 minutes in regular mode with the motorhead and develops only about 22 AirWatts then (which is what I was using and anyone that knows the machines can tell by just the sound -- I forgot to show the setting while filming, sorry). I am going to chance saying here that 22 AirWatts is *way* less than the Sanitaire or Royal develop. The Royal uses 10A and develops 1,200W which it shares with the fan *and* the brush, and I'm willing to bet the brush uses way more than 50W of power, which is exactly how much power the motorhead in the Dyson V8 uses, according to wikipedia.
It may be hard to notice in the video, but the Dyson V8 sucked up *plenty* of baking soda from the carpet, and that baking soda wasn't even brushed deep into the carpet, I just sprinkled it on top of it.
I would have preferred to have had more time to install new bags on the machines and *film* it be changed, so people wouldn't have anything to complain about, but my Director of Photography (aka my husband) wasn't in the mood to hold the phone for much longer than the 3-4 minutes in the video. I also regret that I didn't have a good enough tape to mark the area, but whatevs, it's better than nothing.
In advance of people choosing to bitch about stuff here, I will warn you that this is not the first time I run these tests. People who thought *they* could do better have in fact set the machines much closer to the carpet in an effort to make it brush more, and much higher than appropriate for the carpet in an effort to speed up the brush RPMs and *everything* in between, including what I attempted to do (set to the correct height), but there's something wonky in that the appropriate settings in my home vary, probably something to do with how well (or poorly) they installed the carpet -- it doesn't *feel* or *look* wrong, and the machines that have floating heads seem to take it in stride, but every once in a while one needs to reset the carpet height adjustment on the machines and I keep forgetting where that happens, sorry.
In any case, people who come to my home and see me run the tests or run the tests themselves will tell you it happens *exactly* like in the video and it happens even when you clean a whole area with what they think is the correct setting.
In any case, this is not the first time I end up in conversations like this one, I understand why: people want simple metrics to so as not to complicate things. And fluid dynamics is not an easy subject and it has many counterintuitive situations, just like this one. Before I started using the Dyson V8 to demonstrate this, I was using any vacuum with a suction-only carpet nozzle, and it could still pick up stuff. The last time few times I did this, we used a Dyson DC23 with a Flatout Head tool, which is not the tool with the least losses because it was designed to fit under very low furniture, and it still picked up stuff.
And I am tired of having this conversation and running the test(s) for people. Here, it's now on video. Complain all you want, but if you show up at my home and run the test yourselves, you will see exactly what I am showing in the video.
I'll be the first to admit that it's not exactly scientific, because a big part of the scientific method is being able to *reproduce* any tests at will by anyone who cares to follow the testing procedure, and in this case, I have no idea what carpet I have (and I suggest anyone to avoid buying the same thing if they can avoid it), but what I *can* tell you all is that we did this many many times, with flour, baking soda (as in this case), sand etc and the results even when not identical are in the same ballpark.
And, as one of my math professors was fond of saying, to prove a theory one needs to prove that it happens in all circumstances, but to _disprove_ a theory, all you need is one counterexample.
Here's my counterexample. Not a lot of airflow or a lot of suction or a lot of agitation. Still picks up stuff.
Thanks all for listening,
CLICK HERE TO GO TO earthling177's LINK
|Post# 405977 , Reply# 25   2/25/2019 at 04:32 (404 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)  || |
Les in Utah complained about my posts. In particular, that I backpedalled. LOL. I started in this thread with "No machine is perfect", and that people should weigh the pros and cons if they are going to be keeping only one machine, and made my points from there, including, since my very first response, that if you use several machines in a row, the last one wins, even if it's the first one again.
Les, you make it sound like I patiently joined these forums and waited for over 10 years *just* so I could provide you with valuable entertainment.
Listening to you, some might even come to the conclusion that despite the fact I haven't been here very often in the past 2 or 3 years, I came exactly to *this* thread and posted _before_ you did, fully hoping you would see my post and have your days brightened!
Oh, happiness, when he noticed my posts, it made my whole day.
Sadly, he seems to think that I should stop wasting my time, doesn't he know I have *nothing* else to do but entertain him?
Oh, what will I do with my time if he doesn't read my posts?
Well, for good or bad, I don't mind if he reads them and I don't care if he doesn't.
Someone doesn't want to read my posts, no skin off my nose. Telling people not to respond is weird, what is going on, is he or anyone like him incapable of resisting the temptation to read someone they don't want to read? Well, lucky for everyone then that I can tell you all you can just go to the settings page and block me (or anyone, really) and see if we care or even notice.
Also, if anyone is in dire need of sarcasm detectors, they are having a sale today, a dime a dozen on any local to you drugstore.