Thread Number: 37625  /  Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
Making the ds50 a bit more modern
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Post# 401157   11/19/2018 at 19:47 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        

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Hepa bag conversion on Dual Sanitronic 50. I got the idea from texaskirbyguy. I used a generic charcoal bag ( for odor killing ). After a mechanic cleaning ( new front bearing), it runs soooo smoothly , and a partial cosmetic renovation Including new felt around the emptor ( needs more scratch removal), Iím really happy with it. I may add wide front wheels, weíll see. What do yaíll think about this conversion? I get to keep the classic look and modern filtering . Sani Emptor is fully functional , I wasnt able to secure the inner bag to the top of the outer bag so itís just stuffed in. This isnít a Ďdaily driverí so I donít anticipate changing the bag for a long while.

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Post# 401158 , Reply# 1   11/19/2018 at 19:48 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
More restoration

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Post# 401159 , Reply# 2   11/19/2018 at 19:49 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
A few more

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Post# 401160 , Reply# 3   11/19/2018 at 19:51 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        

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Respect to those Kirby restorers who make a near flawless shine. Man, this work shows a couple of hours 3.5 ( for everything ...cleaning, washing, mechanical, and polishing ). Here I show one side that still has deep gouges in the metal, the other pic shows result of removing those gouges in that side. Still needs more but I grew tired of it. Haha

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Post# 401161 , Reply# 4   11/19/2018 at 20:07 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

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I clean off vacuum with barkeeper's friend and sos pass. I go over everything with steel wool. I work up going to 2000 grit. On 800-2000 I wet sand. The wet sanding it's what gets those flaws out. I then buff with red green and white compound. Then I use mother's mag and clean off with micro fiber towels. I use Mr clean sponges for trim. I spray electrical cleaner on armature and coil. If you polish screws it actually helps keeping the screws strength. I put armature on drill making sure it's balanced. I also use commuter Stone and sand paper while it's on the drill. I put altogether and use baby wipes to finish it off.
I did myd80 nozze and I didn't wet sand enough leaving small blemishes. Mirror finish with no flaws takes paitence.
Les
Very nice d50. Just looks nice.


Post# 401268 , Reply# 5   11/21/2018 at 21:17 by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        
Great work!!

Excellent job despite only 3.5 hours on it! Yes, wet sanding takes a lot of patience and time. See my G6 resto thread for more comments on this (its headlight was bad). I would not try to get all the scratches out, as you may make yourself crazy. I leave in many of them as 'battle scars' from 50+ years of service.

So is that outer bag the replacement or an original? My mom's D50 had the wide-spaced ovals...
Glad that my experiment is working for others as well with the HEPA bag conversion.

The D50 is my favorite Kirby - very classy! And that one had lots of potential. Sure wish I had beat you to the shop to get it! :o)



Post# 401269 , Reply# 6   11/21/2018 at 21:19 by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

BTW, leave the narrow front wheels if you do not have lots of very plush carpet - looks much nicer.

Post# 401933 , Reply# 7   12/4/2018 at 16:38 by Paul (USA)        

Awesome-looking DS50, Kelton. You do great work!

Is it a '65, '66, or '67?


Post# 401939 , Reply# 8   12/4/2018 at 17:12 by vacuumdevil (Denver)        

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Wonderful polish job! I've been thinking about a retrofit option for these vacuums for a long time ,that doesn't concern the mini emptier that we commonly see put on from the heritage 2. There was an insert on the Kirby tradition with a bag hose . I've been thinking copying it with a 3D printer and then making it so it has the ability to take a Hoover A HEPA bag I'd really like to see some modern filtration coming and easier way for everybody who enjoys these vintage Kirby's like we do.

Can't wait to see the end result when that bag is full.


Post# 401941 , Reply# 9   12/4/2018 at 17:21 by Ultralux88 (Denver, Colorado)        

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If I could get my hands on one of the newer style 3D printers that print solid plastic parts, I could have loads of fun printing up bag adapters for all kinds of machines, so one could install the adapter and then just use a modern, easy to find bag in a machine where bags are not made anymore.

Post# 402043 , Reply# 10   12/6/2018 at 00:38 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
Paul,

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Thank you sir, itís a Ď67 model, but I also have a Ď65 thatís almost as nice...thing is, there too much wear on the back of the powernozzle connecting points, may fill them in a bit with a epoxy type aluminum stuff...like texaskirby did and then file it down to take up the slack from all the years of wear.

Post# 403889 , Reply# 11   1/10/2019 at 14:09 by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
How about we make a cast aluminum Mini-Emptor?

Hey Vacuumdevil and Rivstg1,

I'm about to make the leap into D50 ownership and would like to go to a Hepa bag conversion. However, doesn't the mini-emptor look the best? After all, if you're going to convert to disposable bags, then do you really need the emptor bucket? It seems cumbersome and redundant to me, unless there is some practical advantage to it over the mini-emptor.

I like the compact size of the mini-emptor, but the black plastic ruins the vintage look of the D50. Why hasn't someone made a mini-emptor out of cast aluminum? That way it could be polished and would look absolutely factory. It's such a small part that the cost of sand casting shouldn't be too expensive.

What do you guys think? I like this idea as much as my Kirby skateboard wheel concept.


Post# 403890 , Reply# 12   1/10/2019 at 14:28 by bnsd60m9200 (Ponder,TX)        
abc

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its about ascetics. mini emtors look hideous on older machines, which is alot alot of collectors retrofit them like this. they're nothing wrong with making some modifications to older machines to adapt newer materials, better bearings etc. but if you want to modifiy it so much, why not just get a new era machine like a heritage II and save the trouble?? seems like alot of trouble when theyres stuff out there that can do what you want without having to modify the crap out of it. thats just my 2 cents tho.

Post# 403892 , Reply# 13   1/10/2019 at 14:47 by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        

Do you think the mini-emptor looks hideous because it's plastic? That's why I suggested casting one out of aluminum because it would look factory. I suppose someone could come up with a way to retrofit a bag system onto the original D50 emptor setup, but wouldn't that be redundant?

After all, why have the emptor tray and box if it's not being used for that purpose? Wouldn't a cast aluminum mini-emptor be the most streamlined method of incorporating Hepa bags? I'm pretty clueless about Kirby mods, so that's why I asked.


Post# 403895 , Reply# 14   1/10/2019 at 16:26 by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        

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I can see a case for both views, but I guess with modern technology a.k.a. 3-D printing we could probably have one made and then cast in aluminum but, will there be enough people interested in that? In the meantime, the method I demonstrated on my previous thread of ď making ideas 50 a bit more moderní, it works beautifully ....as long as its not your everyday vacuum b/c itís not a breeze to change the bag.
Kelton


Post# 403896 , Reply# 15   1/10/2019 at 16:36 by bnsd60m9200 (Ponder,TX)        
abc

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no not the material, the shape. it makes the machine look off balance proportionally. aesthetically it looks lop side on the older machines and it bothers me visually. casting aluminum would also be extremely expensive, thats why no one would do it. the tradition and heritage had a sani emtor door with bag setups. kirby did it as a factory setup until the heritage II when the mini emtor came out.

Post# 403905 , Reply# 16   1/10/2019 at 21:58 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

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Texaskirbyguy guy 2 things.
The pics are of 519 rear because it was right here and 560 nozzle which sits same as d80 since I've not put safety switch on.
The big wheels in the front when using screws to hold on big wheels flexes near the toe touch causing issues with rug. With tradition front axle you don't need the long screw big wheels fit. On tradition axle the toe touch doesn't flex down. The places it flexes is left of toe touch I didn't notice until I seen Ben's pic. The big wheels wider axle basically gives vacuum complete balance and it's going to perform better as vacuum body is not raised in the back. If you put big in the back not in front you get a muscle car look like rear is higher and front when nozzle hits carpet it's at a slight angle.
The setup I show nozzle is level no lean forward the brush plate hits carpet everywhere and in no other scenario except small wheels all around does nozzle hit ground being level. The wide tires set up gives the front heavy vacuum balance and stability providing best performance out of any set up.
Second I read your tradition thread again. I noticed something I didn't before you waxed before you sanded or buffed it out. You mentioned it brings out imperfections you can see. I always polished last. So thanks it will save time working on areas needing work not working everything because your not sure.



This is for make shift bags. Make a fabric liner that goes inside the bag. Glue it in desired position. Use Velcro to use fabric you intend to hold in place.
Or just get say 2 bags that one is liner the other is pulled out and emptied.
In the worse case Velcro attach bag cut open the top empty glue back shit or Velcro shut.
I'm no arts and crafts but my vacuum I plan on using and bag inside a bag why can't you just wash the bag. I don't know throwing ideas out there. It's why I came up with my system. I did acquire about 50 envirocare sentria 2 HEPA bags. That might be why.
If I were to use a bag the paper micron magic is what I would use if I bought bags. But seeing it's a show vacuum I get it. It's useable and doesn't make a mess simple and easy.
But the tires wider wheels more rubber on the road. Better axle no flexing. Big in back makes front lean forward and you want balance and stability and I think Ben's set up is the best.
Thanks
Les


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Post# 403906 , Reply# 17   1/10/2019 at 22:04 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

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Look at pics I posted it's balanced. Function and aesthetically pleasing. I will have my all blue 519 done d80 and hopefully heritage 2 43 inch nozzle. The wider forks balanced wheels it will look very astetically pleasing that I believe I can't guarantee but more appealing perhaps.
Les


Post# 403913 , Reply# 18   1/11/2019 at 00:04 by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
bnsd

You really think so? Here's a YouTube link to a D80 with the plastic mini-emptor. To me, it looks more streamlined and less bulky than having the emptor hanging off the side like a boxy appendage. The Legend II uses the mini-emptor and that's an even bigger vac. Does that look off balance?

Obviously, aesthetics comes down to personal preference, but I'm trying to think how Kirby would have engineered it back then if they had decent bag technology. With the Legend II, they opted for the simple mini-emptor without the larger sani-emptor bucket and tray. Wouldn't Kirby's engineers have come to the same conclusion if they were working out that problem on the D50?

As for sand casting, it's really not that expensive, even in the U.S. If we go to China, it would be even cheaper. Here's a link for sand casting estimation:

www.custompartnet.com/est...

If someone has a mini-emptor and can enter some basic dimensions, we can get an idea on cost. A plastic mini-emptor costs around $40 to $50, so a polished aluminum one should cost more. Maybe $120? The tooling cost could easily be amortized over 100 or so of these.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO ABCVacPlacentia's LINK


Post# 403916 , Reply# 19   1/11/2019 at 01:33 by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
LesinUtah

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Les,

On this 519, I'm seeing the aftermarket wide green wheels on the Classic Omega/Heritage I front axle, and the first style (smooth) Tradition wheels in the back. Thank you for the compliments about me and my one-time D80 fix!

~Ben


Post# 403935 , Reply# 20   1/11/2019 at 12:18 by ABCVacPlacentia (California)        
Mini-emptor setup I've never seen before?

Check out this link. It's for a DS50 without the original emptor. This doesn't look like a mini-emptor and it's made out of green plastic, so what the heck is it? Has anyone ever seen something like this?

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Post# 403936 , Reply# 21   1/11/2019 at 12:40 by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
ABCVacPlacentia

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Ted,

That is the DVC "F & G" bag converter kit, which seems to have been a very popular conversion piece for Kirbys since the 1960s.

~Ben


Post# 403941 , Reply# 22   1/11/2019 at 15:12 by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
abc

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those F&G's are functional and easy to put on, but others on this board have tested the cfm and there was a notable loss in airflow, though I"m not entirely sure as to why this occurs.  When the vac is 'on' and the handle is retracted back (in normal use in your hand), the severe 'kink' of the airway I alleviated, but when stationary and handle at full upright position, the air tube is worse than a 'L' pathway.


Post# 403942 , Reply# 23   1/11/2019 at 15:17 by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
Hereís what Iím talking about

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See the sever Ďcrimpí? See how it opens up whene handle retracts? Some royal uprights have the same issue. Anyone know why airflow is reportedly so reduced with these bags?

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Post# 403949 , Reply# 24   1/11/2019 at 19:54 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

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Hey
I think not positive it a 90 degree bend on the setup. Natural air flow say 115 cfm it's going to hit turbulence and cause back pressure.
I believe the emtors help with air already in place other air goes around so only backlog is just at startup.
If someone else onery is his sign on. He put 2 PVC 45s making f and g setup for shakeout. I believe it was his model 215 royal. If you applied more tubes idk it would help but his motor was only 3 or 4 amp so airflow was not as high.
The tests I did ranged from 30-45% loss of power using f and g on my 4 amp 562 motor with amodel fan. If you do anything shakeout is better than f and g. The loss is around the 90 degree turn but also the f and g bag the pocket to hole is quite long and air is lost and it strains the motor so much. It kinda like running motor on high speed it's programmed to do 4amps. Your wearing out carbon brushes and coil vacuum may overheat.
Les


Post# 403992 , Reply# 25   1/13/2019 at 00:00 by rivstg1 (colorado springs)        

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I don't follow your logic Les,    once the vac is turned on and handle leans back , the 90-110 degree issue looks to be reduced to maybe 30% bend.  'pocket to hole'??  not sure what that is, but the pathway for air coming out of the exhaust...to F&G opening....the tube passageway can't cause air loss or pressure....its way shorter than the kirby fill tube.     oh well, just wondering..


Post# 403997 , Reply# 26   1/13/2019 at 00:52 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

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On f@g setup the emtor or exhaust is level at 0degrees. The f@g when outer bag is put in clip it's 90 degrees straight up. May it be bag or where ever the area bag catches degree is mid to upper bag in 90 degree fashion. The reason Kirby had better airflow there is no bend if there is it's maybe 15 degrees. And it has solid air path inside hose. The f&g path is through long section of bag to get to was the waste area of the bag.
You were right I didn't explain well. The eureka and sanitairre don't loose pressure as vacuum chamber is right there. Royal designs there vacuums with deeper fans some use f&g but newer are top fill and I have a 880 I'm going to test the difference between top fill and f@g. There will be a difference I'll find out how much.
I have done Kirby f&g shakeout and HEPA sysrem. The f@g and the shakeout cfm was affected. The more that was in shake out the bigger the difference.
Les





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