Thread Number: 37384
/ Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
Kirby 515 Commutator Wear |
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Post# 398956 , Reply# 1   9/29/2018 at 21:31 (2,027 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 398960 , Reply# 3   9/29/2018 at 22:36 (2,027 days old) by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)   |   | |
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Post# 398998 , Reply# 4   9/30/2018 at 19:43 (2,026 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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If the replacement armature is from a machine with a different power rating, it will definitely behave differently. Which may not be a good thing. Typical universal (AC/DC) motors are wired in series. Meaning the resistance of the field coils PLUS the resistance of a single armature coil roughly equals the resistance of the whole motor (not counting any weird extra crap, and how that number changes when the motor is running).
If, for example, you replace the armature with a smaller one (lower resistance/higher amp rating), the total resistance of the motor will be lowered, INCREASING the amount of amps it draws, potentially the point of overheating the motor or burning up the brushes. If you do the opposite, replacing it with a larger one (higher resistance/lower amp rating), it'll have the opposite effect, reducing the 'engine power.' Of course I'm no expert in Kirby's, so you'll want someone else to tell you if the difference between your two armatures is significant enough to warrant concern. |
Post# 399010 , Reply# 6   9/30/2018 at 21:38 (2,026 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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If you cherish your vacuum at all listen up. Get the diagram and make sure armature and field coil are compatible. Also make sure your carbon brush holders brass casing doesn't move.
If you don't you will enjoy what I did a few months ago.2 d80s bad carbon brush holders. I fixed it. The next time I tried it caught field coil burned blue and fried rebuild vacuum to Ash. I was not affected I plugged my second one in and guess what this burned greenish blue. You will go happy and anxious to wt freak. I'm building 2 new d80s correct armatures and fields. I found out bearing plate on older models took certain bearings. Newer bearing plates different bearings. If I had not noticed armature blades would have sliced my wiring and burn blue. So get pics and research every part. Armatures with k meter are easy to test. My burnt ones were bad. New ones perfect . I should have been done long ago but I'm waiting for carbon brush ground wires. I'm capping off dual speed and it should be done soon. But you better believe everything is getting triple checked. Just pay attention to the details. You don't ever want to see green and blue flames. Hopefully it works out. I recently did my sanatronic 562 and took off safety switch and put on amodel fan new bearings carbon brushes. It has same setup you run and I know it's done right. I also did tradition hwhich ran awesome until I fiddled with it. Side note I'm either putting d80 speed switch on tradition or making it single speed. I'm have a d50 nozzle I'm going to put blue d80 not sure if Bojack or not but out on nozzle. I'm going to try to get me a 13 inch nozzle try to get to work on tradition. Jealous of all 13 inch heritage I'm making tradition 13inch nozzle blue bumper. Have my own Bojack tradition 13inch nozzle. But don't fidde with things and be precise when building and it will treat you well. Les |
Post# 399061 , Reply# 9   10/1/2018 at 13:20 (2,025 days old) by broomvac (N/A)   |   | |
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That is surprising, indeed. I've never seen commutator wear beyond surface staining and a just a bit scarring at the leading edge of each bar, and I've serviced many motors. Most of the ones I've had apart were 1980 or later, though.
Perhaps commutator material has improved since the day your 515 was new? I would think motor design has also probably been improved, if even marginally, since that time. Carbon brushes are supposed to be located (I believe) along the "neutral plane" in an electric motor to minimize brush sparking and the wear that comes with it. I suppose that modern engineering may have helped the newer motors minimize sparking and therefore prolong commutator life, minimizing the wear you have encountered. Along that line of thinking, lightly used parts from a later Kirby may be a good long-term solution for you. Good luck! |
Post# 399083 , Reply# 10   10/1/2018 at 21:42 (2,025 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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Hey
What was in original 505-513 was 3 amp 513-515 505-sanstronic 7 after 513 is 4 amp same motor will fit 505 to s7. The coil I think 505-515 are shared 516 to s7 same. The only reason is different motor housing. Carbon brushes I believe 505-classic 1 all the same. I could give history but it's easy to get. Les |
Post# 399158 , Reply# 11   10/3/2018 at 23:09 (2,023 days old) by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)   |   | |
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Post# 399160 , Reply# 12   10/3/2018 at 23:34 (2,023 days old) by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)   |   | |
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Kelton,
Les was trying to figure out which models came with which armatures and fields in original production. The problem is, little information is available for the models with the 3 amp motors (up to the 513 1st series), but the 560-Sanitronic VII 4 amp motor group (114960 armature and 103960 field) will fit the motor housings of all older Kirbys going back to the model 3C, as per what the service bulletin in the picture I submitted says. As to his question of carbon brushes, here are the two that are currently available: 118067 - for models 505 to Dual Sanitronic 80 118076 - for models 1CR Classic to Legend II ~Ben This post was last edited 10/04/2018 at 01:46 |
Post# 400291 , Reply# 14   11/1/2018 at 22:53 (1,994 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 400320 , Reply# 15   11/2/2018 at 22:24 (1,993 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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When Kirby rebuilds 505-512 3 amp motors they put 4 amp motors in the machines. The 4 amp motor is the same used from 513-sanatronic 7. The armature from the 3 amp and 4 amp might be the same. I know they only have 2 wires coming from the field coil. The bearings from 505-d80 are the same. The d50-d80 motor is made by GE or lamb. I dont know but matching field coils and armatures are a must. I dont know the manufacturer of the Kirby motor but mid run of the 5-5.5 amp motor was made by different companies. If you mix the armature up with the wrong field coil it may work now but it wont work. The classic motor was similar to d80 motor but its motor housing was different. The bearing are just for the Cr model. The classic motor is 5-5.5 amp. It has 4 or 8 wires. The armature prior to the d50 were 2 wire. The armature may fit. I would be safe and cross reference the capabilities.
The pre dual sanatronic motors were 1 speed anything after are 2 speed. If you mismatched parts its not if its when will it burn up your commutator or fry your field coil. Im just throwing caution out because Cr 2 speed 5 amp coil isn't made to run the 4 amp one speed motors made by a different manufacturer. |
Post# 400371 , Reply# 17   11/3/2018 at 19:12 (1,992 days old) by Lesinutah (Utah)   |   | |
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The 512 3 amp mosar was invented in 1930s. The 513 came the new motor. The only motor and coil Kirby makes for 4 amp motor. The 3 amp motor is no longer available.
The coil can operate similar motors. Kirby made them and replaced 3 amp motor with 4 amp. It may be you can get a bigger coil to operate 4 amp motor. My 3 amp motors I have I won't risk changing out original parts. The motors 505-523 had a safety switch with one speed. 505 to sanatronic 07 are single speed. The safety switch can be bypassed the safety switch wiring all the exact same. The 2 speed motor requires a different coil. I imagine you can use credit coil to operate 4 amp engine. It's basically only using half the coils ability. I have put bigger motors on smaller coils with catastrophic results. I fried my d80s. I'm glad you got this to work. I'm here to caution people are reading to know potential pitfalls. Watching The vacuum burn to ground after a lot of sweat put into building it. So kudos to you. I just want head the warning. Les |
Post# 427640 , Reply# 18   6/24/2020 at 22:16 (1,393 days old) by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)   |   | |
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Vintage Kirby service bulletin regarding replacement of armatures and fields, 1956.
~Ben |
Post# 429065 , Reply# 19   7/26/2020 at 01:51 (1,362 days old) by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)   |   | |
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Ian,
I think what could be done to make the 103967 field coil compatible with models 3C to 515 would be to try doing this: * Solder the two U-shaped field terminal clips (part no. 1045) onto the yellow and red wires; the yellow wire would be connected to the carbon brush holder on the Emtor side of the motor housing, while the red wire would be connected to the carbon brush holder on the toe-touch side. * The white field wire would be connected to the side-mounted terminal area of the foot switch along with the white wire of the headlight socket. * The green field wire would be connected to the bottom-mounted terminal area of the foot switch (where the prongs to the female end of power cord are) along with the black wire of the headlight socket. ~Ben |