Thread Number: 36836  /  Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
More Airflow Tests Part II
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Post# 394048   6/29/2018 at 20:00 by blackheart (North Dakota)        

The other thread is getting a little long.

I've learned that F+G bags are quite restrictive. I believe this is due to their paper filltubes, they are too easily crushed or folded which create causes a loss of flow. To test this idea I took took two measurements One where the F+G bag was outside of the zippered bag and another while it's in the zippered bag. I also got a 3rd measurement where the filltube was unintentionally crushed and the flow was very limited (55.49)

I found this unit roadside and couldn't leave it behind. It had a chipped fan and a seized brushroll. Since i've got connections with one of the local shops I fixed it for under $15.

Is it normal for these "Blender motor" units hoods' to get really warm/hot? the motor turns freely. I think the problem here is the cardboard diverter just doesn't do it's job. I barely feel any air coming from the top vent. If anyone has a good solution to this I'd like to know about it.

It's a nice budget machine it's a true shame that Eureka no longer makes them or the 1934B that replaced them.


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Post# 394332 , Reply# 1   7/4/2018 at 07:55 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Here is my Nilfisk GM80 results.
cfm from the canister is huge 149 cfm with the HEPA bag.
Sadly the hose causes major drop to the 101 cfm
I tested the shorter/thicker Philips hose and got 117 cfm
Motor uses 1345 watts.
Motor is 2-stage and very large for a household vacuum.

This would be extremely good with the large diameter hose.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK


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Post# 394362 , Reply# 2   7/5/2018 at 00:20 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
149?

Wow maybe I should look into one of those.... that's quite impressive.

Post# 394475 , Reply# 3   7/7/2018 at 11:23 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Sorry my late answer.
With the Nilfisk it's important to choose the right type. You can get GM80 with the GMI or GMD motor. GMI is the industrial motor. Nilfisk GM80 is still available new almost unchanged, but the new model has the small 700 watt one stage motor.
You can see my GM80 motor in the picture.

Mike


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Post# 394476 , Reply# 4   7/7/2018 at 12:00 by Mike811 (Finland)        
Vorwerk Kobold VK135

mike811's profile picture
Well this is something what I quite did not expect.

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Post# 394641 , Reply# 5   7/10/2018 at 17:57 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture

Here is all of my vacuums in the airflow from the nozzle test.
Results order best to worst.





Post# 395234 , Reply# 6   7/18/2018 at 18:34 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Dirt Devil Broomvac

I'm kind of surprised by it. It seems to be able to lift rug edges despite it's low waterlift. I just finished putting it back together today and the area I had attempted to mend cracked right back open. It doesn't impact performance but the handle is constantly pushed back.

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Post# 395384 , Reply# 7   7/21/2018 at 03:12 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Can't read the black printing on the dark background.Used to have one of these little machines-it was very powerful for its size.And it could use attachments like a miniature Kirby!The hose use was not real effective,though.The machine is a great thing for small areas where bigger machines won't fit.

Post# 395386 , Reply# 8   7/21/2018 at 04:05 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Oops

I just typed over the letters in a lighter font it's pretty good considering it uses a 3 amp handvac motor. I honestly think someone should bring this design back make it a little more robust and it'd be a winner.

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Post# 395388 , Reply# 9   7/21/2018 at 06:44 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

And make a metal version like the full sized metal Royal uprights.This would be nice for commercial cleaners that have to work in small quarters-like a place full of desks and such.I would even buy one!!!Also it can be used in RV's and campers.

Post# 395459 , Reply# 10   7/22/2018 at 17:57 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another Oddity

Meet the Hoover Savvy, this particular model has two counter rotating brushrolls and when new it would have come with one cup for bagged use and one for bagless (standard Hoover twin chamber style) I only received the bagged cup which takes Hoover Y bags. The lid to the cup was missing and after doing some searching I finally got a replacement. Even with a proper lid I can't help but feel as though this unit is brought down by it's own design the exhaust vent is rather small and the air comes out rather forcefully. the resistance from this also causes air to shoot out the back of it where the internal wiring runs, which is right next to the airpath. I did include the edge groomers in the nozzle width bringing it to 15.25" wide.

I was going to take to suction measurements too but unfortunately I dropped my waterlift guage last night breaking the plastic cover and throwing the measurements off. it reads at about 10 in a neutral position now.


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Post# 396222 , Reply# 11   8/4/2018 at 20:21 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Tristar MG2

A step backwards for Tristar! I didn't try to measure the machine inlet as it's clip locations leak a lot. I've heard the new JEI motors are better, The Mg1 and Mg2 were unfortunate enough to receive the vm3 motor. I also tried the working waterlift guage and got a little over 40 at the hose and got about 8" of working waterlift at the base with a 1/2" opening

A few new measurements will be coming this week including: Royal powercast Ry9200, A bissell easyvac stick vac, a dirt devil deluxe and some dirt devil handvacs.


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Post# 396290 , Reply# 12   8/5/2018 at 19:57 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Royal Powercast RY9200

Well.....I expected more from it given how other collectors talk about them. This unit is a 30 lb monstrosity it's figures are good, yes, but i was hoping for airflow over 110. It's filter was removed and it's got a Royal L Hepa bag fitted into it. I cannot imagine that bag is causing any problems compared to the Dirt devil U bags that were known to burst. I had to use some electrical tape to get the figures there's a plastic sheath that fits over the aluminum housing which is where the bumper would sit there is a gap between the housing and the sheath which caused a major leak when i attempted to seal it with the panels.

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Post# 396301 , Reply# 13   8/5/2018 at 23:24 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
Wow

rivstg1's profile picture
I agree, would have expected more. I have seen tests on the older upright metal ones, but they sure seem to suck the carpet dry!!


Post# 396306 , Reply# 14   8/6/2018 at 00:57 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Sort of disappointing for the amount of power this thing draws!We have seen better from cleaners that draw LESS power.

Post# 396592 , Reply# 15   8/10/2018 at 23:10 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
Here is my first test I did my riccar rsl4 it has 2 speeds
Vacuum nozzle is 1.75 in x 10.5 inch. That makes nozzle area 18.375.
The conversion factor for my annimometer .034880
I got 7007 reading on high speed so 7007 x .034880 is 244.40 cfm.
That with my airflow box test. I dont think it's quite right. I figure it's going to get 160 cfm.
I've done my sentria I got nozzle test 160-180 cfm and airflow box I got 133 cfm.
I have a tradition with tune up nozzle cfm was 155 airbox 128 vfm. I put my bag conversion that is 2.75 in fill tube.
My royal ry4001 end of hose I got 118.
My sanitare s667a I got 126 128.
My 560 and 562 I got 113-118 cfm.
My tradition with 12 ft hose was 82 cfm. The 7 foot hose I didn't get good seal.
My 505 rebuild got 102 cfm its basically everything replaced.

I have a Kirby Omega I'll test see if it's similar to tradition.
The numbers might be off. I'll do them again. I know how to get nozzle service area airflow density I'm not sure how to get the same waterlift.
I don't understand why watts are used instead of amps. I say because watts is not saying much except flow of electricity. Amps are power of motor. Watts don't mean much without power.
Les sorry no pics It was first time.
Les


Post# 396737 , Reply# 16   8/14/2018 at 04:23 by CaptainSlow (Singapore)        
@vaclab/mike

To obtain the ft/min to CFM conversion factor, do I measure my anemometer's vane from one end of the plastic edge to the other?

Diameter = 6.3cm
Radius = 3.15cm = 1.240157in = 0.1033465ft
3.1415926 * 0.1033465 * 0.1033465 ~= 0.0335537

Is that correct?


Post# 396742 , Reply# 17   8/14/2018 at 07:44 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
That's probably pretty close Zan

vaclab's profile picture
What I usually do is look at the inner diameter of the detector, since all the airflow will be directed through that opening. The inner "hole" might be ever so slightly bigger than just the vanes themselves.

But the rest of your calculations appear to be spot on.

1) Get the inner diameter
2) Convert the diameter to feet, the cut the number in half for the radius
3) Area = 3.141 x Radius x Radius
4) CFM = (Ft. / Min.) x Area

As the last few years have rolled by, it has always given me great joy to see others making their own airflow/suction boxes and posting airflow measurements. These CFM measurements are absolutely critical in determining how well a machine can clean when paired with appropriate agitation. Manufacturers, by and large, will never reliably reveal CFM so we must test and post our own results.

Devin,

As always, KEEP GOING my friend! You come across more machines than I do.

Bill


Post# 396743 , Reply# 18   8/14/2018 at 08:00 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Les, all your numbers appear in range, except

vaclab's profile picture
That RSL4 obviously. Can you re-test? I think Devin tested a similar model awhile back and got around 91 nozzle CFM on high speed.

So if 91 CFM on high is correct, instead of:

"I got 7007 reading on high speed so 7007 x .034880 is 244.40 cfm."

You should see around 2600 ft./min. on your meter.

If you really did get 7000 ft/min, your anemometer would literally be screaming in pain as mine did when I got 208 CFM from the motor intake (not nozzle) on high speed in my Sentria II video.

Bill






Post# 396745 , Reply# 19   8/14/2018 at 08:25 by CaptainSlow (Singapore)        
Miele C3 motor airflow

Thanks for the clarification Bill. Indeed the inner diameter is wider than the opening ends, but since all I have is a standard ruler, the opening diameter is all I have. I've done a motor-only run, with a clean bag with standard filters.

My results show that the 1200W motor can indeed achieve the 158CFM rating as advertised on this Ristenbatt webstore. How do I embed a youtube video to share it here?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO CaptainSlow's LINK


Post# 396970 , Reply# 20   8/19/2018 at 16:50 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another Lux

I'm surprised by this i honestly though it's flow would be as good if not better than the marquis given it's shorter airpath. I attempted to take suction readings at the bag chamber but the cardboard bag frame leaks when suction at the main port is sealed off. I also lack a proper hose which would allow me to get a good suction reading. I did take a reading at the base hose when it was apart for service but I didn't have the hepa bags when i did that. It's amazing how much flow was lost going from that tube to the nozzle itself as well as waterlift the suction was ok from that hose nothing great though.

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Post# 396972 , Reply# 21   8/19/2018 at 16:55 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
RSL4

That's very odd....They did change the fan from the RSL line to the new R/S10S and up line but the old R/S10E still uses the old fan. I recall trying the "wand" test with both models and the newer style did pull the wand away. this is very interesting and I'm going to have to test that too I know the shop i worked for has a Used S3600 which i think was the equivalent of the RSL4.

More machines to come! unfortunately i've been rather slow with my restorations.


Post# 397020 , Reply# 22   8/20/2018 at 12:52 by Rivstg1 (colorado springs)        
black heart,

rivstg1's profile picture
we appreciate your testing and posting these results!!! keep doing them as you come across different machines!

Post# 397038 , Reply# 23   8/20/2018 at 19:43 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Freedoms

Well i tried a used 3600 and it's motor was not in the best of shape i only got 67.28 CFM from it. Then i got the idea to measure the S10E which uses the same fan and motor as the older freedoms then i did one of the newer S10 series machines with the new fan and strangely i got a lower result than last time and i couldn't figure out why but there's two factors that could have effected the S10D's flow #1 the metal rollers when brand new have additional resistance until it "breaks in" due to a seals meaning the motor could have been spinning slightly slower. #2 I was using a different Vane on the same anemometer. The weirdest part to me though is that the S10S and up line produces more flow with a fan with fewer blades. In a way it makes sense though the outer part of the fan is going to reach the highest speed and on the old ones the highest point is towards the center with the new one the peak is towards the outside of the fan. so that portion which displaces the most air is traveling the fastest on the S10S+ line.

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Post# 397039 , Reply# 24   8/20/2018 at 19:46 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Symmetry S20D

I've been told they had superior flow but their hose power always seemed weaker to me, doing this though shows me that they have more flow at the base than the old versions do according to Bill's symmetry I didn't have all my tools on me or enough time to do it thoroughly but here's another

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Post# 397040 , Reply# 25   8/20/2018 at 19:50 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Symmetry S20UP What happened?

Ah the ultra premium using a 2 stage motor and having an additional year of warranty over the S20P it's two steps up from the previously tested S20D
The first weird thing i noticed was that this had less hose power than the S20D. Looking at it more closed showed that this has a different hose on it one that is more supple and stretchable but it may have deeper ridges to it which would make it's interior diameter smaller. I'm not sure what went wrong at the nozzle for some reason it's loss was much more significant than the S20D, but i re-tested it once and found a similar result. I didn't have the time to do a more thorough test or to inspect it's base for the cause of the loss.


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Post# 397041 , Reply# 26   8/20/2018 at 20:03 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Proteam 1500xp

Another partial test really. They also have a smaller headed 1200xp which i'd assume would be just as powerful just with a smaller cleaning path. I'd assume it's brushroll cavity to be the same size as a lux so it's airflow density could be guessed at 2.77CFM/inē

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Post# 397538 , Reply# 27   8/30/2018 at 17:25 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another!

This time a Eurekalux, ever since I've tried one of these in a local hardware chain i've wanted one. It's power is in line with other high end canisters.

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Post# 397874 , Reply# 28   9/7/2018 at 14:40 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture

Here is my AEG / Electrolux Precision BrushRoll Clean


I got 76 nozzle cfm what is the highest what I have seen for a bagless vacuum.
It has a diverter valve, so when the floorhead is in use air doesn't go through the hose.
In the US it has 12 amp motor.


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