Thread Number: 36248
/ Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
Super J motor cleaning or maybe more... |
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Post# 388698 , Reply# 1   3/21/2018 at 22:01 (2,198 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Brushes look fine, I would leave them alone, as long as they're not oily.
The spiral 'scratches' look VERY weird. The thing is, when a rotating part touches something, it'll make a circular scratch. I'm willing to bet those are either just dirt marks, or corrosion/rust/pitting marks... Unless you have end play on the motor shaft, I wouldn't worry about it. Likely, that spiral is how the air moves in that chamber, leaving deposits in that shape, or causing micro-scratches in that shape that take off the plating and allow the cover to rust in that pattern over the years. You might actually find they'll wipe off. Try it. I don't have a picture of your fan blade, so I don't know. If the blade is metal (rather, the part of the blade that surrounds the shaft), and you're patient, soak around shaft on both sides of the blade with WD or PB blaster, repeatedly over a couple days. That should soak in well enough to unfreeze them, but it won't necessarily make it much easier, only possible. If you've done that, or if it's plastic, have an assistant firmly hold the blade with both hands, like they're choking somebody, and you take a medium-small hammer and tap on the motor shaft firmly, but not hard enough to damage the end of the shaft. If the shaft takes a nut on the end, a good idea is to get another - sacrificial - nut and screw it on, leaving it a good turn loose past the end of the shaft, and hammer that as hard as you like (providing that force won't bend or break the blade while it's being held). It'll destroy the nut, but the nut should protect the shaft. |
Post# 388700 , Reply# 2   3/21/2018 at 22:24 (2,198 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Aluminium bottom fan came off after a WD40 shot on the shaft, but the plastic top fan didn't move at all, and i'm not sure where it is supposed to separate. Can you show on the picture?
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Post# 388706 , Reply# 3   3/22/2018 at 01:31 (2,198 days old) by Electrolux-dude (Canyon, TX)   |   | |
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The plastic part is stationary. The whole fan housing comes off. The bottom fan will pull off after the housing comes off. My email address is: thetrain1979@gmail.com Nathan Electrolux Dude |
Post# 388707 , Reply# 4   3/22/2018 at 01:54 (2,198 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 388773 , Reply# 9   3/22/2018 at 21:05 (2,197 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Is the front bearing a ball bearing and the back one a bronze bearing? I'm not sure why there would be a felt pad there unless it was NOT a ball bearing. Does it seem like there's a spot to oil it from the outside?
Oftentimes in part numbers you'll find one portion is the same, and another different, especially when it's just a couple numbers 608 and a couple letters LU. Likely the bearing number is just 608 and the letters after signify some particular detail that's different, a design change perhaps, likely one number supersedes the previous. That little spot on the field coil looks almost like it's burned. That could be... bad. In the future, anyway, because it was working before you disassembled, right? I'd recommend a good cleaning with soapy water and a tooth brush. Be sure to 'rinse' with clean water, but you don't want the whole thing soaked, just a tiny bit of water to clean it only. Once it's good and dry, examine it, if it looks like the varnish is peeling or burnt off, you might want to pick up a can of insulating varnish and spray down that spot with a couple coats. That being said, it's not the end of the world if you just left it like that. Can has pics of the other bearing, the one that he felt cap went over? |
Post# 388799 , Reply# 11   3/23/2018 at 01:23 (2,197 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Well then. That felt in the cap needs to be saturated in oil. But not so much that it tries to drip out. I would fill the cap with oil, then leave it on its side overnight for the excess to drain off. When you assemble, add a couple drops of oil right on the end of the shaft at the bronze bushing, in fact, you may want to do that right away, to let it soak in. Hopefully that bearing is not completely dry.
As there's no oiler, I would assume that's meant to be 'lifetime' lubricated. As in, the oil they put in there in the factory should last the life of the unit (how long was the warranty?). Pretty sure you're well past that point. |
Post# 388804 , Reply# 13   3/23/2018 at 07:18 (2,197 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Lifetime lubricated, that's exactly what I thought when I saw how it's made ! |
Post# 388833 , Reply# 15   3/23/2018 at 15:28 (2,197 days old) by brewsky (va)   |   | |
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Would be interested in how the foam is placed? Is it sandwiched between two motor parts, or surrounding the motor mount? |
Post# 388839 , Reply# 16   3/23/2018 at 16:14 (2,197 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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it was between the plastic cover and the motor. |
Post# 388863 , Reply# 19   3/23/2018 at 21:26 (2,196 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 388868 , Reply# 20   3/23/2018 at 21:58 (2,196 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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thank you everyone for your help, I appreciate a lot. I'd have other questions about the old hoses leaking, but I'll start a new thread, I guess. |
Post# 388873 , Reply# 23   3/23/2018 at 22:24 (2,196 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Here it is.
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Post# 388911 , Reply# 26   3/24/2018 at 06:52 (2,196 days old) by brewsky (va)   |   | |
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Thanks,....yes, I would just drop them in.....I am going to re-use the ones that came out as they do smell nice! Or maybe you could shop for some new ones more to your preference |
Post# 388912 , Reply# 27   3/24/2018 at 07:06 (2,196 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Ozone from the brushes is a good hypothesis, I wonder why one smells like that but none of the others I own... |
Post# 388913 , Reply# 28   3/24/2018 at 07:37 (2,196 days old) by brewsky (va)   |   | |
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Good question.... Possibilities.. 1. Others also have some kind of odor masking scent chips inside 2. One produces more spark at the brushes than the others 3. It is not ozone you are smelling, but something else. |
Post# 388954 , Reply# 30   3/24/2018 at 13:18 (2,196 days old) by kirbylux77 (London, Ontario, Canada)   |   | |
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Paul, good info above about the Canadian Electrolux ZB89 & ZB89E. But one small correction to your information: The powerhead receptacle for the electric hose was ALWAYS on the 89, right from the start. You were thinking of the 86 & 88 there. If memory serves correct, it was the second version of the 86 & 88, from 1966 to 1968, that saw the addition of the bumpers & the powerhead receptacle. As for the electric hose, I believe that was 1971 it was finally changed from the outboard cord on the outside of the straight suction hose to the electric hose.
Rob |
Post# 388958 , Reply# 31   3/24/2018 at 13:55 (2,196 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)   |   | |
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Congratulations on a job well done! About the only way I know to effectively rid the vacuum of the funky smell is to remove the motor field from the bell housing and wash the bell housing thoroughly with degreaser. If you don't want to remove the field, then use a brush to get as much accumulated dirt and carbon dust out as possible. Then I use alcohol with Q-Tips and rags to get into the nooks and crannies!
I love your determination. That's how we learn! |
Post# 388979 , Reply# 33   3/24/2018 at 20:05 (2,195 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Is that what you call the fields ?
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Post# 388982 , Reply# 34   3/24/2018 at 20:36 (2,195 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Yes, that's the field. It's technically an assembly of the two field coils (painted red on yours) and the iron/steel core or whatever it's called.
If you say the motor heats up fast, and there were those spots on the field coil that we were skeptical about, it's possible the field coils have an internal short. Get a wattmeter, or ammeter, actually most multimeters have an amperage setting, and run the vac through it to measure the amps/watts, and compare against the vac's rating. If it's way off, you have a problem. If it's not, well, some motors just behave differently. Likely the smell you have is a combo of ozone from brush arcing, oil and bearing grease, and some remaining dust on the thing. And the spin-down time could simply be the new ball bearing, it does take a bit of break-in. You sure the motor's not binding? Tried spinning it by hand, and listen for binding? |
Post# 388985 , Reply# 35   3/24/2018 at 20:54 (2,195 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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I'm not sure what you mean by "binding". Yes, I turned the motor by hand, it was obviously a bit harder than with the worn bearing, but I'd say it was smooth and not sticking . |
Post# 389036 , Reply# 36   3/25/2018 at 17:00 (2,194 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 389044 , Reply# 38   3/25/2018 at 17:41 (2,194 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Kevin, thanks for the info. I didn't replace the brushes, these inside are the old ones, as they were still a tad longer than one inch. I'm waiting for my kill-a-watt multimeter to arrive by mail, I'll do the amp test with the motor running as soon as I get it and report my readings. |
Post# 389141 , Reply# 43   3/26/2018 at 23:24 (2,193 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Honestly don't think you need to bother with the 'best' super j. It's only out of whack by 0.5A, that's negligible. The cleaned one, however, is off by a whole amp. That's... kind of a lot.
Something's up with that one. I'd suspect that field has an internal short. You know you can test each field coil separately, the assembly should have 4 wires, 2 go to the brushes, and 2 are input line voltage. So ohm across 1 brush wire and 1 line wire on the same side, for each individual field coil. In fact, you probably don't need to take apart the good super j (to compare values), because I'd wager one coil would read different from the other. You'd know immediately. If one of the two coils has a lower resistance than the other, that's the smoking gun. Or one segment of the armature. Also, fun fact, denatured alcohol is called that because it has been 'denatured,' in this case, it has been deliberately poisoned with methanol so you won't drink it (and the gov't won't lose the tax revenue from people drinking it instead of vodka). In all fairness, 90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol would really do the same job, all alcohol has some measure of water in it, well, outside of laboratory conditions, anyhow. |
Post# 389169 , Reply# 44   3/27/2018 at 06:23 (2,193 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Madman , I don't plan on opening the good SUperJ for testing, just the one I cleaned, which is the same that has the cracked cord spool. I did a research on YouTube and found two good tutorials for testing these motors with a multimeter, I'll follow the procedure and report my readings. |
Post# 389176 , Reply# 45   3/27/2018 at 08:32 (2,193 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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If anyone has the specs for the AP-100 with the power nozzle, i'll be glad to compare with my current readings, the only spec I saw on the machine was 5.0 A |
Post# 389256 , Reply# 47   3/27/2018 at 22:58 (2,192 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 389324 , Reply# 53   3/28/2018 at 17:51 (2,191 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)   |   | |
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...and this link: Do ALL the tests and if they fail one test, they're probably no good.
Kevin CLICK HERE TO GO TO Real1shep's LINK |
Post# 389330 , Reply# 54   3/28/2018 at 19:10 (2,191 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Exactly what I did , plus this one: |
Post# 389331 , Reply# 55   3/28/2018 at 19:26 (2,191 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Just did both tests again, with same very consistant readings and no continuity. |
Post# 389334 , Reply# 56   3/28/2018 at 20:09 (2,191 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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I plan on bolting the motor back in the can without its plastic cover before watching sparks or arcing, so torque and juice won't be hazards. |
Post# 389350 , Reply# 58   3/28/2018 at 23:35 (2,191 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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@real1shep The guy probably had the time to rewind the motor because having motors rewound is very expensive. And it's not cost-effective unless it's a big expensive motor, or something antique and irreplaceable. Never rewound one myself, I'm sure it's tedious, but it's not complicated. You know they sell motor insulating varnish, in rattle cans and in liquid form. So one could do the job properly if one were so inclined.
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Post# 389417 , Reply# 60   3/29/2018 at 22:12 (2,190 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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I am not interested in rewiring this motor anyhow. |
Post# 389501 , Reply# 62   3/31/2018 at 01:46 (2,189 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)   |   | |
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In TRYING to watch the video---CRAPPY production and music.Armatures are usually wound by machine at the motor factory-same with the stators.Best just to get a new motor if you can.If not try to find a donor machine with a good motor. |
Post# 389593 , Reply# 63   4/1/2018 at 20:53 (2,187 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)   |   | |
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I've seen machines that hobbiest use to rewind motors. Kinda funny to watch....
Like I said, armatures are usually the culprit in Elux made motors. Or....you just wait for a used motor to pop up, test, repair and use.
Kevin |
Post# 389600 , Reply# 64   4/2/2018 at 01:32 (2,187 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)   |   | |
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I don't know if they are still available--you could get a small winder used by radio hams and repairmen to wind radio type coil,transformer bobbins-but not motors.You could cran kthe machine by hand or turn it with a variable speed drill.worked well. |
Post# 389638 , Reply# 65   4/2/2018 at 15:01 (2,187 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)   |   | |
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No, I've seen some contraptions on Youtube for rewinding field coils and armatures......probably home brew, but interesting to watch.
Kevin |
Post# 389885 , Reply# 70   4/5/2018 at 18:20 (2,183 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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I'll try to source them locally first, beginning with my Elux center. |
Post# 389898 , Reply# 72   4/5/2018 at 21:11 (2,183 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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I suppose it depends on how bad your commutator is, but I usually just wrap a bunch of masking tape around the armature shaft, chuck it into a power drill, run the drill, and clean the commutator with a scotch-brite pad.
Hang on. I have a hunch. Before you do anything else, try this: take the sparky brush out of the holder. Turn it 180 degrees. Put it back in. Retest. CLICK HERE TO GO TO MadMan's LINK on eBay |
Post# 389914 , Reply# 75   4/5/2018 at 23:07 (2,183 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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here is what's left of the black dust under the top cover, I removed 99% of it.
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Post# 389915 , Reply# 76   4/5/2018 at 23:08 (2,183 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Actually I thought about a filter past the motor like the rectangular one in the AP-100 and E2000 and so on. |
Post# 389927 , Reply# 77   4/6/2018 at 03:21 (2,183 days old) by compactc9guy (Bathurst NB)   |   | |
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Post# 389932 , Reply# 78   4/6/2018 at 07:11 (2,183 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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That SuperJ is something impressive, it's very powerful ! After I put it all together yesterday evening I used it in my apartment and went to the point where I left a quite big screwdriver on the floor, and it sucked it up !!! |
Post# 389971 , Reply# 79   4/6/2018 at 14:57 (2,183 days old) by vacuumlad1650 (Wauponsee, IL)   |   | |
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Post# 389987 , Reply# 81   4/6/2018 at 16:45 (2,182 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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I had a few orange sparks on both sides, from time to time. The black dust isn't good for health nor it is aesthetic when it sticks to every part of the vacuum body, they apparently didn't think about that either. |
Post# 390006 , Reply# 82   4/6/2018 at 20:46 (2,182 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 390135 , Reply# 87   4/8/2018 at 11:49 (2,181 days old) by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)   |   | |
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The biggest trick to Elux cord winders is to leave about three spring wraps on the spool with the cord pulled ALL the way out. Your problem is common to a newbie and Elux cord winders.
Kevin |
Post# 390159 , Reply# 88   4/8/2018 at 20:21 (2,180 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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You should probably address the cord issue. It's kind of... not good if a repaired part of a wire is getting hotter than the rest of the wire. It'll melt and let the pixies out eventually.
Bummer about the cord winder. Realshep's probably right, winding any kind of clockspring is a huge pain because you pretty much need to know exactly how many turns it needs at a certain point. |
Post# 390224 , Reply# 89   4/9/2018 at 17:48 (2,179 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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You mean three spring wraps around the big spool, right? |
Post# 390639 , Reply# 91   4/17/2018 at 23:51 (2,171 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 390645 , Reply# 92   4/18/2018 at 06:40 (2,171 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Good suggestion, Madman ! Actually, I realized all of three posts will need some reinforcement. |
Post# 390695 , Reply# 94   4/19/2018 at 06:41 (2,170 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Doug, The only written reference I have to reinstall the spring is for the ZB89 model, it says 3.5 turns around the spool drum (big spool) when 18 foot of cord is out. Could it apply to the SUperJ as well? |
Post# 390696 , Reply# 95   4/19/2018 at 06:45 (2,170 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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Sorry Kevin, I called you Doug... |
Post# 390744 , Reply# 96   4/19/2018 at 20:13 (2,169 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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recent update: denaturated alcohol is very good at removing epoxy glue from fingers ! |
Post# 390784 , Reply# 98   4/20/2018 at 15:33 (2,169 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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I did monitor the current again and after about 10 to 15 minutes of use, the vac draws 7.5 amps without the PN, pretty close to the specs. |
Post# 390803 , Reply# 99   4/20/2018 at 22:25 (2,168 days old) by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 390826 , Reply# 100   4/21/2018 at 07:56 (2,168 days old) by quebecois (Waterloo, Canada)   |   | |
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THanks to all for your advices, I don't think I'd achieve that without your help. |