Thread Number: 35013  /  Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
More airflow tests.
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Post# 377459   8/29/2017 at 18:38 (412 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        

I think it'd be better for me to stick to a single thread rather than making a new one for each machine. I feel like i've been spamming the forum lately.

So fresh off the box we have a Shark UV795 31 Powered Rotator lift away. In the 2nd picture we can see that when placed on the box it has nearly 1/3 of it's original waterlift. Machines lose a lot of power at the nozzle.


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Post# 377580 , Reply# 1   8/30/2017 at 08:54 (412 days old) by Wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Almost 59 CFM, That's Towards The Top

wyaple's profile picture
Of the heap for a bagless machine. So you also were able to get suction measurements at the power nozzle, eh? Very cool! I'll have to build another air box that can do more than just measure airflow.

Bill


Post# 377591 , Reply# 2   8/30/2017 at 14:24 (412 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)        
Where to buy?

drsnuggle's profile picture
I would like to do these airflow tests, but where do I buy the tools for it?
The Kirby airflow meter for instance (I do not mind having to buy it from the US)?

I had this idea 6 month ago and I bought an anemometer (I think that is the name) but it was to weak and just shattered when coming close to the wand. Long time ago I read a post on this site with some guy that had built a carbon box for these type of measures (I was so inspired and impressed)and I tried and failed myself. Please, some hints. I will not use it in any videos, but may post it here if I just get the hang of it.


Post# 377592 , Reply# 3   8/30/2017 at 15:03 (411 days old) by Wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
You have to make your own airflow/airwatts box

wyaple's profile picture
And then grab yourself an anemometer. Check out my YouTube channel VacLab for how to videos.

Bill


Post# 377601 , Reply# 4   8/30/2017 at 16:24 (411 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)        
My motto:

drsnuggle's profile picture
There is no shame in fame. Please Bill post the video.
Instead of having me (or readers of this post) search.

Where to buy the Kirby meter is still a puzzle. A link would be great.


Post# 377614 , Reply# 5   8/30/2017 at 19:19 (411 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Miele S7 Freshair

Another surprise i thought it would have had more flow, but it has a very large amount of twists and turns in it's airpath. The reason i took readings on both smooth and low pile is due to the suction motor automatically turning itself down when the brushroll is active listening to the sound of the unit and messing with the speed control i've found that it's carpet speed is about low pile max. I also think it's kinda funny that the motor was running at 1165 watts, so the motor should be the same as the canisters? 1200w vortex and yet the airpath of the machines majorly effects the flow.

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Post# 377616 , Reply# 6   8/30/2017 at 19:44 (411 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Another Airflow Shocker...

wyaple's profile picture
I'm stunned that such an expensive machine still has no better nozzle airflow than a typical bag-less cheapie. I love the look and features of the S7, but your tests reveal that Miele has produced an expensive package that's nothing more than a look and features.

Devin,

I have one request. Do you remember when you gave me some Miele C3 Baird meter readings a while back? Is it possible to get the nozzle airflow tests on that C3? I would like to see how close my predictions were.

Bill


Post# 377617 , Reply# 7   8/30/2017 at 19:56 (411 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Miele C3

It's possible yes, I was going to wait until i finally got my C3 brilliant but that's months away yet. When people look at Miele i often tell them right off the bat that the canisters are more powerful than the uprights. I mean I like my Fresh air it's a very nice vacuum, the bare floor pick up is fantastic, the carpet cleaning hasn't dissapointed me either, But i have a feeling that the brilliant will outdo the S7.

Post# 377618 , Reply# 8   8/30/2017 at 19:57 (411 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Jakob,

wyaple's profile picture
Airflow Box Introduction




Airflow Box Test of the Kirby Sentria II




GM8901 Anemometer ($25.21, Free Shipping)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM8901-Anemomete...

Baird Meter
www.goodvac.com/AirFlow_Indicator...


Good luck! I look forward to seeing your tests! BTW, here's what $70 USD can get you. Tough to spend $1000 on an upright or canister that scores 50-60 CFM, eh?

Bill


Post# 377640 , Reply# 9   8/31/2017 at 08:57 (411 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
If you ever get the chance

Here's what I would like to see:

If you could do a test with a turbo nozzle.  It would be interesting, as we know the turbo robs the airflow.  I would like to see just how much, I'm betting it is pretty significant.

 


Post# 377664 , Reply# 10   8/31/2017 at 15:00 (410 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Harley,

wyaple's profile picture
I've done three. Here's the video:

Bill






Post# 377665 , Reply# 11   8/31/2017 at 15:11 (410 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Thanks Bill

I will watch when I get home.  Can't access youtube at work.


Post# 377670 , Reply# 12   8/31/2017 at 19:17 (410 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Sebo Felix

This was interesting it's essentially as powerful as my D4. When measuring the D4 i did not have a fully clean bag nor was the wand leaned back into a cleaning position. So the CFM at the nozzle is probably even closer than my results show. Out of curiosity i also took waterlift readings.

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Post# 377671 , Reply# 13   8/31/2017 at 19:25 (410 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Eureka 2058



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Post# 377672 , Reply# 14   8/31/2017 at 19:39 (410 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Simplicity S40p

Ah the synergy i've been saying for some time now that i believe this is the best cleaning vacuum. I was honestly expecting over 100 nozzle cfm but eh. As a bonus i included a picture of the bag i took out of the machine. I live in a 1 bedroom apt with a cat not a whole lot of space to clean and it hasn't been used too much so i was shocked to see the amount of dirt in it. there was a lot of denser dirt caught in the clumps low in the bag. I'm really beginning to wonder what's up with the nozzle testing It should not have more flow at the hose then at the base especially with the wide airpath.

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Post# 377673 , Reply# 15   8/31/2017 at 20:48 (410 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Hmm

The synergy will be re-done i think i may have been holding the vane wrong. It significantly effects your numbers if you hold the wrong side of it to the airflow. I found some old numbers from when the dirty bag was still installed (the same one seen above) and i was getting 86.83 and 99.15 at the nozzle with 1 and 2 motors. Something really seemed off when i was getting more flow from the hose that makes no sense. Disregard the post above and we'll see what tommorow brings.

Post# 377675 , Reply# 16   8/31/2017 at 21:27 (410 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

Good videos, but what I was meaning about testing airflow with turbo heads was to use your air flow box and compare the losses when a turbo is attached. Much like when you begin measuring at the machine body, then hose end, etc. Instead of power nozzle measurements, do measurements using a turbo cat or Miele turbo floor nozzle. Hopefully this would show how much power is robbed pulling these attachments.

Post# 377696 , Reply# 17   9/1/2017 at 13:15 (410 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)        
Thanks Bill!

drsnuggle's profile picture
Thanks Bill!
Much appreciated. I will be watching this weekend.

Blackheart (proof of me having a U1 are in the pics or in the pudding :-)):
I noticed the same for my Miele U1. It struggled to pick up some long rice left in one mess vacuuming I did (after using a vacuum starting with an O ending with a k). I thought I would bring out "The Beast" to finish what the previous vacuum did not. To my surprise it did not help. What the U1 did, however, was bringing up a lot of rice to the surface of the high pile but it could not bring it to the bag. I used my Sebo Felix in the end which did the job.

Very interesting thread this is, I have to say. I know that this is more or less a site for US people, but I cannot comment on American vacuums as there are not many in Europe (where I live).


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This post was last edited 09/01/2017 at 18:53
Post# 377707 , Reply# 18   9/1/2017 at 17:55 (409 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
.

Harley, I can perform that test when i test the C3 cat and dog, I have access to a C2 with a turbine. I have owned a wessel werk turbing I think it was a Tk284 and wessel werk sent me a few gates "the opening into the turbine" they come in 3 different sizes Miele's turbine seems to use the largest opening so i'd except their turbine tool won't lose as much as most will. We may also have a turbocat lying around....

Jakob. I like the Miele uprights but I know there's better I'd certainly take them over the majority of other items on the market. They are a good machine. (Good machine to me means i'd be comfortable owning it as a sole vacuum or supplemented with something if it lacks tools.) But their canisters are superior to their uprights. I'm curious I see you have the electronic control does it too automatically step down when the brushroll is in use?


Post# 377739 , Reply# 19   9/2/2017 at 12:21 (409 days old) by tekjunkie28 (Roanoke Va)        

LFM and CFM don't correlate unless you are measuring LFM for a given size.
LFM is speed given over time while CFM in a volume over given time but I'm sure you now that :) I would like to know more about how you came up with this conversion factor. Also extremely important here is the aK number or "free space" air has to flow at the entrance of the power head.

PS I have yet to find a vacuum with as much suck power as my shop vac with a hepa and drywall dust bags.


Post# 377745 , Reply# 20   9/2/2017 at 16:10 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
In truth

The process was developed by Bill, Wyaple on here. I have no idea how he came up with the conversion. I just go with it. I wanted to see what sort of numbers my machines were pulling and the baird meter isn't exactly an effective tool for comparison since it's on a scale of 10 it leaves you thinking there's a dramatic difference between the numbers. I just learned about his process and started to do it myself with a few differences. It's been an interesting process for me some of my machines do better than i expect but most of them actually do worse than i had hoped.

and for those paying attention to the thread I'll have 4 more machines done, hopefully tonight the measurements have been taken, now it's just a matter of conversion, and photo editing.


Post# 377747 , Reply# 21   9/2/2017 at 17:04 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Simplicity S10P

Pretty impressive from a 9 lb upright. With it's nylon bristles it also has excellent agitation.

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Post# 377748 , Reply# 22   9/2/2017 at 17:07 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Sebo X4

As thought the Felix is indeed more powerful.

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Post# 377749 , Reply# 23   9/2/2017 at 17:08 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
MIele turbine

I didn't bother taking the full tests as i was more focused on the turbine aspect for Harley besides both Mieles have the 1200 watt vortex

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Post# 377750 , Reply# 24   9/2/2017 at 17:10 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Miele C3 cat and dog.

Despite having the same motor the hose losses and wand losses are quite different i'd assume it's due to the wiring in the hose and the electric channel which consumes wand space.

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Post# 377762 , Reply# 25   9/2/2017 at 22:27 (408 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

Thanks for the Miele Turbo vs. Powered head comparisons. I have a C3 Alize suction only, for which I added a turbo head months back. On some of my medium dense pile Persian rugs the turbo is tough to push, but I guess I could open the vent to reduce suction yet keep the beater bar up to speed... but I intuit that may degrade performance further relative to deep cleaning.

With the above said, I just dropped a bit over $500 today to get a powered cord/wand/head combo (SES236) so I will now have a fairly complete powered and unpowered Miele system. Based on your comparison above and comments about the wired tubing/hose constricting air flow will I be feeling positive with the results of my pricey addition? I'm thinking your turbo head comparison testing may not be completely accurate in reality because when bristles are restricted by the carpet, flow my be further restricted as the turbine creates more resistance but should not have the same result with a powered head. Could this be a correct assumption?


Post# 377763 , Reply# 26   9/2/2017 at 22:48 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Your assumption

Should be correct. As the brush is put to carpet it will slow the turbine which should impede it's airflow further. So really the figure is more like a max flow figure, in use it'll be less. Though i cannot tell you how much. An electric tool is going to give you better agitation and despite overall losing more through the electric hose and wand you still do have more airflow at the base. Though distributed over a larger opening.

Post# 377764 , Reply# 27   9/2/2017 at 22:55 (408 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
GM8901 Conversion Factor

wyaple's profile picture
This is how you convert feet per minute into CFM when using this anemometer.

Diameter of GM8901 Anemometer Detector = 2.1875 inches
Radius = 1.09375 inches = .0911458 feet
Detector Area = 3.1415926 x .0911458 x .0911458 = 0.0260990 (rounded)

Sooooo, if the vacuum generates 5000 ft./min that would be:
5000 x .026099 = 130.5 CFM

Hope this helps,

Bill


Post# 377765 , Reply# 28   9/2/2017 at 23:05 (408 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Miele C3 Cat & Dog

wyaple's profile picture
Devin,

When you first gave me the measurements of the C3, you had measured 101 CFM at the end of the hose and 95 CFM at the end of the extended wand (just before going into the power nozzle). Do you have any idea as to why your newer measurements are so much lower? The end of wand readings are off by 14 CFM, which is huge. And a drop from 79" to 18" of water lift at the PN probably means there's a major leak somewhere.

Bill

Initial Measurements:
Hose: 101 CFM
Wand: 95 CFM

Second Measurements:
Hose: 95 CFM
Wand: 81 CFM


Post# 377766 , Reply# 29   9/2/2017 at 23:16 (408 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Baird Meter Conversion Table

wyaple's profile picture
Although I've posted this many times before, here it is again. From Baird "0" to Baird "8", the spring in the meter itself is fairly linear and amazingly accurate. The last two markings, namely "9" and "10", are non-linear as the spring becomes stretched beyond its linear limits and the graph flattens out somewhat.

The spring follows Hooke's law, that is F = -kX

Bill


Post# 377768 , Reply# 30   9/3/2017 at 05:37 (408 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        

I cannot be completely sure but here's my thoughts on the difference. A new bag was put into the machine to ensure the highest possible flow.

We had used a baird meter before to measure it's flow. The meter i used was the shop's, i have no idea how old these meters are but seeing as the place has a long history with kirby i'd guess they are pretty well used which could perhaps cause the spring to stretch out a little bit and lose some of it's pull.

While this should not be a factor it's not the same wand we measured from the first time. A customer needed a wand replaced and her machine was under warranty. She uses two of them for house cleaning and needed a wand pretty quickly so we figured we'd take the wand from the higher machine which was probably not going to move anytime soon. We then just ordered a new wand and put it with it. I can't recall whether or not we fully extended the wand the last time, this time was wand was fully extended.

As for the waterlift differences when taking the wand measurement i noticed an audible leak coming from these little things. With the nozzle difference an attempt to create a seal on the box causes a lot of leakage just like with most nozzles a lot of it comes from the neck of it. I also can feel a small amount of air being drawn from where the 2 halves of the nozzle's housing join together.

when doing these tests I measured hose and wand cfms first with both canisters since i tape my baird adaptor to the vane to ensure there's less loss so i know the orientation of the meter was not an issue. Wattages were close at 1149 and 1158 so the speed setting was not a factor either.

I had actually performed the C3 nozzle test twice. After taking it's initial measurements I started to take pictures and I couldn't help but think that there's no way those numbers could be right and I must have done something wrong. SO i re-tested it and got the same numbers.

I did want higher numbers from this machine. I feel like it's a really nice vacuum and, I guess, I just had higher hopes for it.


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Post# 377769 , Reply# 31   9/3/2017 at 07:49 (408 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

I suppose some other ways to slice and dice the testing is to swap turbo head with powered head on C3 and run tests... And do similar swap with complete non-powered hose setup just to ensure the power source is identical (understanding the 2 different units have the same motor). Why? To better control and measure the variables.

Post# 377820 , Reply# 32   9/4/2017 at 12:12 (407 days old) by DrSnuggle (Sweden Stockholm)        
Miele U1 is great!

drsnuggle's profile picture

Blackheart: I do not want to hijack this tread but I do need to respond.

 

Sorry if I sounded negative about the Miele U1. I am not. I completely agree with you. The quality is outstanding, the brush is powerful and it is versatile (I can fit my Miele Twister to the wand and use it as I would with a canister).


Post# 377870 , Reply# 33   9/4/2017 at 19:43 (406 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
An annoying process

I've been trying to re-measure my Simplicity S40P and I'm still not matching my original set of numbers with the dirty bag. It seems like it's for some reason difficult to get the baseplate of the machine to create a good seal with the box.
My original numbers (prior to this thread where:
1 motor: 86.83 CFM
2 motors: 99.15 CFM
Then i put in a new bag and got the numbers above. I'm not exactly sure what i did wrong in that test but the numbers were signicantly lower, i feel i may have held the wrong side of the vane to the box.
1 motor: 67.8 CFM
2 motors: 83.23 CFM

So i finally ran another series of tests tonight.
1 motor: 84.77 CFM
2 motors: 95.55 CFM
Bag door open (direct air motor only): 98.63 CFM.

Something is still off here a machine with a dirty bag should not have more flow than a machine with a clean one. I'm much more satisfied with these numbers though. I feel the Synergy are the best cleaning uprights you can buy. So I'd love to see their maximum airflow. I know a new synergy can pull a wooden dowel away from a new Kirby avalir but there's not too huge of a difference the kirby can snatch it away if the synergy is being pulled backwards. Multiple adjustments were tried same result.


Post# 377887 , Reply# 34   9/5/2017 at 02:43 (406 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I am wondering for these airflow tests if a Wood box,or even metal one can be built for these tests-with adjustable gaskets for sealing the nozzle,tool to the box.The tests are interesting,though.Vac builders should take note!

Post# 378795 , Reply# 35   9/22/2017 at 17:41 (388 days old) by 882 (USA)        
blackheart C2 measurements...

Does anyone have any guess why the C2 measurements look (generally) so much better than those of the C3... I would think that the smaller bag of the C2 would potentially cause a lower CFM recording -- but it appears that something else along the line has not only compensated for that but aided the C2 performance.

Any idea what is happening there? -- Those C2 number look almost identical to the numbers that wyaple measured/posted on a C3 in April.


Post# 378796 , Reply# 36   9/22/2017 at 18:25 (388 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

C2 v C3... just guessing C2 shorter hose and non-electric hose/wand and different nozzle could all impact the results.

Post# 378797 , Reply# 37   9/22/2017 at 18:27 (388 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
I have some ideas.

Wyaple's cfm measurements were based off baird meter readings that I took. The baird meter used has likely been used for many Kirby demos leading me to believe that the spring in it may be stretched out a little which would lead to higher readings.

The measurements I took were measured with an anemometer I got a wind speed and thanks to Bill (wyaple) that can be converted to volume.

Now as to the Differences in flow. The motors are the same. the differences are in the hose and wand. The C3's hose has an electric cord running through it. Not only does that take up space in the hose but it could potentially create turbulence. The wand is also narrower thanks to the electric components being in the way.


Post# 378809 , Reply# 38   9/22/2017 at 21:21 (388 days old) by 882 (USA)        

It is still very interesting just how close the your (blackheart) C2 readings are to the ones you shared with Bill for the C3 earlier.

What is especially intriguing to me (and still feels a bit of an enigma) is not just how close the measurements are between those two data sets but the crazy drop previously noted from the end of the hose on the C3 to the end of the wand (not present on the C2 sample). IF the wiring is the airflow death source -- it seems like its effect should be felt through the hose as well as the wand. It seems like something really was going on with the wands on that C3.?. Note that the airflow differences between the C2 & C3 were not all that different at the end of the hose (Tseg's shorter hose take could account for that slight difference perhaps). Seems like there maybe more to the mystery. Love that there is a place to see this all and discuss.

It's all very fascinating.


Post# 378823 , Reply# 39   9/23/2017 at 11:39 (388 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
airflow of electric and nonelectric hoses

I don't have an airflow meter, but I did notice something with my Sirena water filtration machine. It includes two hoses, one is an electric hose to provide power for the power nozzle, the other is a nonelectric hose for wet pick-up, you can also use this hose for dry pick up if the power nozzle is not needed. When using the nonelectric hose, a turbine brush will spin a bit faster than when using the electric hose, and this is when using the same machine, so there must be something slightly different with electric hoses.
Mike


Post# 378834 , Reply# 40   9/23/2017 at 16:31 (387 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Baird meters

I have access to 3 Baird meters, 1 I own, the other two belong to the shop. The measurements i gave to Bill (wyaple) used the shop (front) meter as we can see we are getting a higher reading from it vs the other two. This for me confirms my idea that it's spring is somewhat worn so there would be less resistance.

The machine used was the same Miele C3 I've been testing. It does have a little sand in it's bag but it shouldn't be enough to impact it's numbers much at all


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Post# 378835 , Reply# 41   9/23/2017 at 16:38 (387 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Hoses and wands

As we can see the hoses are similar in length. the electric has a cord running inside of it. The electric wands also have a narrower interior.

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Post# 378841 , Reply# 42   9/23/2017 at 18:40 (387 days old) by 882 (USA)        

Strangely, it doesn't seem like the cable running through the hose makes all that much of a difference in the measurements (hardly enough to have much notable effect -- 95 vs. 102). Any guess as to why (if it is the cause) it would make such a comparatively giant difference at the end of the wand? It actually looks like -if it (the power cable) was going to make a big difference in turbulence and flow the hose is where it would really hit hard (for a number of reasons) and be especially noticeable.

blackheart: Wonderful to see the pictures! The Baird meter picture is especially neat to see. You had to throw it in there. It makes the mystery go even deeper. The differences between the respective Baird meters definitely do not account for the scale/difference between the earlier (April - 95 CFM) wand readings vs. the newer ones (81 CFM).

I would be curious for experiment's sake (just for fun) to see what/if any difference existed with a C2 like the electro+ with the electric hose on. I wouldn't expect it to be terribly different but there do certainly appear to be fascinating things happening.

Thank you for sharing.


Post# 378843 , Reply# 43   9/23/2017 at 22:54 (387 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

Is your electric wand the latest... SET 220? My SET 220 diameter looks the same as the non-electric, but perfectly smooth inside whereas the non-electric has all kinds of notching for the telescoping. The SET 220 has a different mechanical design to address which leaves perfectly smooth and round innards.

Post# 378844 , Reply# 44   9/23/2017 at 22:57 (387 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

A friend of mine said that before saying something, one should think about it and ask oneself "Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it kind?" and not say anything unless one gets at least 2 "yes".

So, with that in mind, please realize that fun as it may be, a Baird meter is not a serious instrument for science. Just look at it and ask yourselves how you'd calibrate the 3 copies above to bring them to agree with each other in that measurement. Electronic instruments often have an auto-calibration routine, instruments that depend on springs often have something to help calibrate it to a known quantity, usually a knob or something.

Hard as this may be to hear, Baird meters were made to sell Kirby vacuum cleaners, and there's no reason to even believe they are not cheating in some way, the spring might be non-linear enough to make most of the cleaners of the time the meter was created to read under say, "5" and Kirby's read "10" despite the difference being small.

Has anyone among us put this meter to an apparatus that can generate known pressures and volumes at will and seen what happens?

And please, before you misunderstand me, no, I'm not saying this just to harsh y'all's vibes -- y'all tell me this is just for fun and I'll drop it, but if y'all are to take this all as serious, you need to do it in a more scientific way.

A lot of the differences we've been seeing here can be assigned to lots of small things -- aerodynamics is not as simple as it looks, like someone already said, just putting the hose in a straight line as opposed to curved makes a difference. When an airstream takes some path as opposed to another, all kinds of turbulence (or absence thereof) will give different results. You can see this in as simple situations as a box fan gives different results depending on how far they are from a wall, for example; that means that unless the adaptor boxes that Bill and Devin, among others, are using are identical, the measurements (airflow and pressure) they are reading for uprights will differ too.

Cheers,
   -- Paulo.


Post# 378852 , Reply# 45   9/24/2017 at 02:24 (387 days old) by 882 (USA)        
Tseg & earthling177

Tseg: Glad you mentioned what you did. I began to wonder the same as I have just had someone tell me the lumen of the SET220 is effectively the same diamteter as the non electric wand (right or wrong) and found a number of images that seem to support his statement. It really wouldn't make much sense with the SET220 design for it to be any narrower than the non-electric. Honestly though, I would be inclined to believe that the wand used here was an SET220.

earthling177: I have a science background and think you were very thoughtful in how you worded your statement. How rare on the internet! To me, this is largely fun and interesting. I definitely appreciate the time that these guys have put in for what I may not consider especially "academic" but definitely interesting and fun. Worth anyone arguing about? Not to me. Enticing and appreciated? Absolutely.


Post# 378862 , Reply# 46   9/24/2017 at 08:25 (387 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
comparing a Miele C1 and C3

It would be interesting to compare the airflow of a Miele C1 and C3, with the C3, Miele says that it's a totally sealed system, they don't make this claim for the C1, I'm not sure if this even makes a difference or if it's just marketing hype, but thought I would mention it.
Mike


Post# 378871 , Reply# 47   9/24/2017 at 13:00 (387 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

The Baird meter was not designed or intended to make scientific measurements! This tool was designed merely to make general comparisons in airflow between different vacuum cleaners.

 

It is true that most bagless vacuum cleaners generate high suction but very little airflow where most bagged units generate much more airflow with less suction and Direct Air machines generate the most airflow of all types of cleaners.

 

The Baird meter is also a useful tool to indicate when your bagged vacuum cleaner may need to have it's bag replaced or maybe a tune up is needed.

 

 


Post# 378878 , Reply# 48   9/24/2017 at 16:44 (386 days old) by 882 (USA)        
Bag Influence Would be Interesting to See

I mentioned it a little in my first post above, but I also wonder if the smaller bag of the C2 creates more resistance --to the extent-- that it affects the overall CFM. Or, do the respective sizes and (Miele's bag design) not fall within a size range (condition) that actually results in much of a real difference if any? Do the smaller C2 bags and larger C3 bags influence CFM?

I've seen random evidence that suggests there is little to no difference interestingly but would love to learn more on the subject.


Post# 378965 , Reply# 49   9/27/2017 at 07:19 (384 days old) by Kloveland (Tulsa, OK)        

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So the old-fashioned simple fan first designed uprights outperformed the expensive clean air uprights and canisters. Looks like they even out performed the tandem air designs. Good reason to use my Kirbys and Hoover Convertibles. I think the results speak for themselves. I don't think a person can really argue raw numbers or facts.

Post# 378982 , Reply# 50   9/27/2017 at 17:12 (383 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

If airflow is one's only priority, there you have it. As with many premium consumer goods, an alternative consideration is overall balance of benefits. Excellent airflow for deep cleaning of rugs, excellent suction for above floor or hard floor cleaning, light weight for multi-floor transport, large and effective filter bag/compartment to limit servicing, smaller size for optimized storage, quiet motor for pleasing vacuuming experience for you and others around, variable suction for multi-surface cleaning, variety of accessories for multi-function cleaning, outstanding filtration to limit allergens, rubberized shock absorbing multi-directional wheels for quiet maneuverability, compartment to hold accessories on unit for quick accessibility, long cord and/or hose to extend reach, auto cord rewind for ease of use, awesome color and design for viewing pleasure, easy clean or stay-clean design, perceived cost/value benefit, etc...

There is a whole other category that seems to get somewhat limited play in discussion, which is critical assessment of cleaning head performance, and performance on which surface. I'd rather have strong suction and limited airflow and a suction-only parquet head on wood floors than amazing airflow and a powerful beater-bar, for instance.

Statistics are what they are, but how they are spun by the statistician can lead to false conclusions.


Post# 383172 , Reply# 51   12/27/2017 at 19:23 (292 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another Wrench!!!!

Well I recently purchased a Miele C3 Brilliance and I'm once again getting different figures. I think the most likely explanation for the difference in the C3 cat and dog and this unit is the filter. The cat and dog used a granulated charcoal filter where the Brilliance uses a Hepa filter. I figure having solid particals in the filter has to have some sort of effect on it's flow.

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Post# 383173 , Reply# 52   12/27/2017 at 19:30 (292 days old) by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Crumby!

Someone gave this to me for Christmas. They jokingly said I should measure it's power.....so I did.

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Post# 392410 , Reply# 53   5/27/2018 at 16:37 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Henry!

An HVR200-11 quite a powerhouse,but the floor tool leaks quite a bit. When the ball gauge was put onto the airflow box i could feel air leaking around the joints and around the selector pedal on the floor head.

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Post# 392411 , Reply# 54   5/27/2018 at 16:39 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
1521 Marquis

Looking at Bill's test of his 1401 B they have not changed much since that time.

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Post# 392413 , Reply# 55   5/27/2018 at 18:39 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Bill

lesinutah's profile picture
I posted on your explanation of your chart asking for a website. I found the website other than YouTube.
Nice job on dumbing science in layman terms. I really appreciate you're efforts. Its informative and enjoyable.
Les
Aka utah vacuum guy


Post# 392563 , Reply# 56   5/31/2018 at 08:49 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
My airflow box is finally ready. Well it still needs a paint.
I made it from the plywood and sealed everything with the acrylic mass.
I can also measure the suction with it.
Hole diameter is 5.6 cm (2.2 inches)

When the GM 8901 Anemometer arrives can I use site in the link to convert mph to cfm?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK


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Post# 392565 , Reply# 57   5/31/2018 at 09:03 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I need to make the hole smaller.

Now it is 2.2 inches and the anemometer is a bit less than 2 inches. Just right size hole to the cardboard piece and problem solved. Baird meter adapter fits to this 2.2 hole.
I quess adapter is only good for suction measurements?


Post# 392585 , Reply# 58   5/31/2018 at 14:50 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
I'm very surprised by your results for the Miele C3. I would have thought it would produce more airflow than that.

It certainly feels one of the most powerful cleaners I've used.


Post# 392587 , Reply# 59   5/31/2018 at 16:28 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Over 100 cfm from the hose end is very powerful for a clean air vacuum cleaner.
I measured 108 cfm from my C3 with a 1.8 meter (6 feets) hose.
Clean air vacuums don't really go much higher. It's physically impossible (hose & pipe diameter).


Post# 392589 , Reply# 60   5/31/2018 at 16:52 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Well...

The highest hose end flow rate i've gotten from a Canister is about 108 my latest flow reading was 107.89, the number came from my Henry HVR200-11. The highest one i've heard of was a Lux marquis with a replaced 12 amp motor which pulled about 120 cfm from the hose without a bag.

Post# 392591 , Reply# 61   5/31/2018 at 18:09 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I have seen that video. 160 cfm from the canister end😮
I thought it was 110 cfm from the hose end🤔


Post# 392597 , Reply# 62   5/31/2018 at 21:34 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Mini-Meet #2 Marquis Measurements

vaclab's profile picture
Are somewhat on the "quick and dirty" side with the Luxes. The Sentria I airflow box is exact (127.4 CFM) as I measured that Kirby several times over several minutes.

When using the GM8901 anemometer, please use only this conversion to obtain CFM from Ft./Min.: 0.0260990

It was derived from these measurements and formula.

Diameter of GM8901 Anemometer Detector = 2.1875 inches
Radius = 1.09375 inches = .0911458 feet
Detector Area = 3.1415926 x .0911458 x .0911458 = 0.0260990 (rounded)

Can't wait to see your airflow (and nozzle suction) tests as well as power usage measurements.

Bill


Post# 392611 , Reply# 63   6/1/2018 at 04:02 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I am excited to test the airflow box.
Biggest challenge is to make a good seal between the nozzle and the box.
Of course I can test it with the baird meter before the GM8901 arrives (without the hose adapter).
So the formula is anemometer result x 0.026099. I will use it.

Now i need to get some sealant material for my airflow box.
I was wondering if I can cut pieces out of my blue rubber backed very low pile rug and make a custom pieces for each nozzle?


Post# 392620 , Reply# 64   6/1/2018 at 09:55 by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
That might work, but some people use

vaclab's profile picture
Foam rubber weatherstripping, which is usually very inexpensive. I use microfiber cloths because I have a lot of those and they are easily configurable. They look terrible, but work very well.

Bill


Post# 392627 , Reply# 65   6/1/2018 at 13:21 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Yes over 100cfm at the hose end it very good for a clean air but it drops significantly at the floor nozzle. Much more than I'd expect.

Post# 392630 , Reply# 66   6/1/2018 at 13:55 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Mark

From what i've noticed the powerhead leaks a lot. If you seal the brushroll opening you can feel air leaking around the swivel neck connection and (on the SEB228) Near one of the rear wheels where there is a vent for motor cooling.

Post# 392637 , Reply# 67   6/1/2018 at 15:29 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Regarding the supped up Marquis

Yeah, I re-watched the video on it the hose cfm was taken using a baird guage so we were told 110 cfm without a bag at the hose end. The flow was also not taken with a bag and that makes me wonder how much it would have been reduced looking at Bill's olympia test that machine pulled 113 from the machine without a bag and went down to 104 when a hepa bag was installed. that machine lost a mere 9 cfm at the bag chamber but unfortunately this number isn't a constant the power of the machine is going to have an influence over how much will be lost and i think it's safe to say that machine with higher flow also have higher losses. I don't have a number for the no bag hose end olympia but if we compare the numbers from the bag in test and the marquis from the video

Olympia Body: 104 Hose: 95 91.35% of airflow retained
Marquis (suped-up) Body 160 Hose :110 68.75% of airflow retained.

I've also taken a look at my Filter Queen airflow tests since i used the exact same hose wand and powerhead the only variable was the machines themselves. I see it here too where more flow is lost from the more powerful machine. Oddly the wand was consistent, possibly due to it's smooth interior?


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Post# 392682 , Reply# 68   6/2/2018 at 03:41 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Devin I use my Miele C3 with a Sebo ET1 PN. I think you would measure a higher CFM with this set up. 😁

Post# 392684 , Reply# 69   6/2/2018 at 07:26 by blackheart (North Dakota)        

You'd increase your airflow density due to the smaller area of the nozzle, and you would probably have a very slight increase in flow at the head. I feel though that the wessel-werk head has better agitation though, but I have no good way to measure that.

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Post# 392685 , Reply# 70   6/2/2018 at 08:07 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Yes the Miele has better agitation but I prefer the ET1 as the brushroll is about a third of the price of the Miele and much easier to remove. The build quality of the ET1 is very robust. 😊

Post# 392687 , Reply# 71   6/2/2018 at 08:27 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
That's very true!

The cost of consumables on a Sebo is often, if not always, lower than Miele and the brushroll is much easier to change.

Post# 392752 , Reply# 72   6/3/2018 at 14:35 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
So here is the very first test of my airflow box with the Vorwerk VK 135.
I still need to do some modifications to seal it better.





Post# 392762 , Reply# 73   6/3/2018 at 19:56 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Hmm

We went from about 108 to about 85 granted i'd assume this is the majority of the flow you may get a few more cfms with a better seal. For a clean air vacuum 85 is pretty great it surpasses all but two i've the machines i've measured thus far.

Post# 392775 , Reply# 74   6/3/2018 at 23:57 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I was quite happy to the result, but the seal between the box and baird meter leaked. Also the cardboard seal wasn't the greatest. It should have around 90 nozzle cfm.

Post# 392868 , Reply# 75   6/5/2018 at 17:07 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Lux platinum part 1.

Well the platinum arrived today and I thought i'd have to hold off until new filters were purchased but the ones that came in it must have been very new as I think this machine was purchased in 2014. So here's some pictures and i'll place the results in the next post so one doesn't need to dig through these to find them. I cannot get a proper seal on the machine's inlet due to it's shape but I threw the picture in anyhow for fun.

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Post# 392869 , Reply# 76   6/5/2018 at 17:29 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Lux platinum part 2

And here are the results. This machine has the higest flow i've seen out of a canister. I do think the power nozzle holds it back. It's undoubtedly a nice machine it's very quiet and has a lot of both suction and flow (at least for a canister). I'm a little iffy about it at the time but we'll see how continued use of it changes my views.

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Post# 392887 , Reply# 77   6/6/2018 at 07:48 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
Excellent results. This has to be the most powerful cylinder)canister cleaner available.112 CFM at the end of the hose is very impressive.

What makes you iffy about it Devin? 😁


Post# 392895 , Reply# 78   6/6/2018 at 12:34 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Well

It's mostly the power nozzle. While lux nozzles are reliable (generally) I don't feel they're very good deep cleaners. The wands are also a little short for me (I'm 6'4") The canister itself is nice it's quiet it's got a powerful motor but the bag capacity and 2 filters would be rather costly over time, though i suppose if you have the money for one of these new that's the least of your worries. It also seems to have a high pull weight even on bare floors, all the wheels spin freely.

I dunno I like the style and the power of the main motor, but i just feel that power nozzle just drags this whole thing down, despite it's airflow advantage I have a feeling my Miele, Simplicity, and possibly Sebo canisters outclean this on carpeting.


Post# 392902 , Reply# 79   6/6/2018 at 13:18 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
Yes I agree there, the running costs will be quite high. It's a shame about the floorhead. I wonder if the new floorhead on the Lux international would perform better?

Post# 392904 , Reply# 80   6/6/2018 at 13:45 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Filter(s) on GP

I have had my Guardian Platinum for four years now. Though it receives light usage, I have never had to replace the filters. The cloth bags do a very good job of filtering, of course, mileage may vary as those that use in more dusty conditions may experience more frequent changes.



Post# 392923 , Reply# 81   6/6/2018 at 20:05 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Devin, thanks for the Lux GP measurements

vaclab's profile picture
I think it's quite a great machine but about a 32 CFM loss from the hose/wand connection down to the PN is very high indeed. Normally, I would post a pic of my Hoover Tempo Widepath (under $100) that does 80 nozzle CFM, but I already did that farther up this thread.

For what Lux charges for this machine brand new, 81 nozzle CFM is simply unacceptable to me. Mike's Vorwerk will probably end up testing near 90 CFM when his GM8901 anemometer arrives.

I've always wanted a GP and now I know what I would be willing to pay for one.

Bill


Post# 392930 , Reply# 82   6/6/2018 at 22:39 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Thoughts

I kind of feel that perhaps we've seen the strongest flow we'll see out of a canister. I do recall seeing a Kenmore intuition pull the baird meter back to a 10 but since that was on one of the shop's baird meters that result could be skewed due to a worn spring. Anyhow i've put together a comparison chart and we can see all the measurements that i've taken for canisters so far. There were a few figures I either did not collect or could not collect which are marked with N/M (Not measured) I'm also working on a chart for uprights but I have a few more figures to collect before that's posted.

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Post# 392936 , Reply# 83   6/7/2018 at 07:06 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Bill Mike's Vorwerk is an upright cleaner.

As Devin mentioned the Aerus has the highest CFM he has measured so if that is unacceptable then every canister is unacceptable in your opinion.

Personally I think 80CFM is very good for a canister cleaner and will clean carpets extremely well!




Post# 392944 , Reply# 84   6/7/2018 at 10:40 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I am very jealous to the Australians. They have this (SAUBER EXCELLENCE SE-400) with the fantastic Sebo ET-1 powerhead.


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Post# 392945 , Reply# 85   6/7/2018 at 12:11 by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Mark, I'm not blind yet

vaclab's profile picture
I know Mike's Vorwerk is an upright. Geez.

The point I'm attempting to make is twofold.
1) 80 nozzle CFM isn't much to crow about since much cheaper clean air machines can achieve this figure and
2) A 1980 Electrolux Olympia One with a new vinyl hose can get 75 nozzle CFM.

So 2014-1980 is 34 years and only a 5 CFM improvement from something that touts 505 Airwatts and 116" of water lift? Yes, I'm disappointed.

Bill


Post# 392947 , Reply# 86   6/7/2018 at 13:42 by Mike811 (Finland)        
23 years difference in cfm

mike811's profile picture

I had to check this one.
Lux Platinum (112.5 cfm) has 8-10 cfm more than my 23 years old Lux Royal (around 104 cfm)
I used 1.8 meter hose what is the same length than in the Lux Platinum.





Post# 392964 , Reply# 87   6/7/2018 at 17:19 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Some notes about my Vorwerk airflow performance. Motor is 900w (7.5 amps)
Cfm from the body of the vacuum is 108 cfm (baird 9)
Nozzle cfm is around 85-90 cfm.
something to remember is that the canister vacuums need more power (cfm) because the hose will eat quite a bit of cfm.


Post# 392980 , Reply# 88   6/8/2018 at 05:17 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
Yes Mike is correct canisters need more power because the long hose strips it of power.

Bill it's not just about airflow, build quality comes into it too

Lux have excellent build quality and will last many years. Ok you won't get 120 CFM in a canister but you don't need 120 CFM to clean well 😁


Post# 392994 , Reply# 89   6/8/2018 at 10:34 by Mike811 (Finland)        
Miele C3 Nozzle Airflow & Suction

mike811's profile picture
Here is my Miele C3 with the Sebo ET-1 ph measurements.
Maximum nozzle cfm was around 65-70 cfm and suction 35 inches of water. Motor draws 1430 watts.


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Post# 392995 , Reply# 90   6/8/2018 at 11:01 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
It's incredible

How much flow and suction is lost in a bypass design/canister's nozzle. I'm beginning to think that it may partially be intentional. If we retained all the suction of like the lux platinum at the base plate it would undoubtedly seal to the carpeting which would make it hard to push/pull and the brushroll motor would either strain or just stop. Direct air machines have a massive amount of flow but lack enough suction to have this problem.

Post# 393003 , Reply# 91   6/8/2018 at 12:59 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
At the hose end this has baird 9 = 108 cfm.
I don't know how much wand eats the airflow.
My Vorwerk with 85 nozzle cfm is nightmare to push. I need to open the air release holes from the powerhead or lower the motor speed to make it usable. So too much airflow + suction can be challenging to manage.


Post# 393005 , Reply# 92   6/8/2018 at 13:44 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
That is a very good point Devin. The Kirby is also hard to push though with the tech drive off.The Classic series could be hard to push that's why the tech dive was born.

Anyway I'm very happy with the way my canister cleaners perform. 😁


Post# 393006 , Reply# 93   6/8/2018 at 13:44 by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
I want that Sauber

JUST fOR THE BEAUTIFUL HOSE!!!

Post# 393110 , Reply# 94   6/11/2018 at 17:35 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Dirt Devil

The Dirt Devil Ultra MVP is by far the strongest bypass machine i've measured with an amazing 129.95 CFM at the base I did get a reading of 128.45 when re-testing it but I tend to use the highest numbers they achieve and in past testing it has reached 4980 FPM or 129.95 CFM.
It is missing an after filter due to the last one being tossed out. They're made of an electrostatic material and they never wash out well.

This machine achieves it's record flow (at least for a bypass) by using a large and short airpath as seen in the 2nd photo.
I've always thought this design to have a lot of potential and with some refinement it could be great.


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Post# 393112 , Reply# 95   6/11/2018 at 17:58 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Another unique setup

The Eureka Excalibur, it was an interesting attempt at a 2 motor upright from eureka and while it's flow rate at the floor is decent it should be much more powerful the fill tube is short and wide it uses a metal "door" which has a trigger where the wand is inserted, when the wand is removed a spring pulls this door closed to divert air to the hose. unfortunately this system isn't well sealed and causes a massive loss of power. Either way it was an interesting setup

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Post# 393116 , Reply# 96   6/11/2018 at 22:28 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Umm, Devin Are You Sure Those Numbers Aren't Flipped?

vaclab's profile picture
After dozens of tests over a few years, I have yet to see airflow increase from the hose down to the power nozzle. It always decreases...a lot.

Are we to believe the Dirt Devil has 80 hose CFM and 130 nozzle CFM? And the Eureka has 49 hose CFM and 87 nozzle CFM?

What am I missing here?

Bill


Post# 393121 , Reply# 97   6/12/2018 at 01:30 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Missing piece

neither of these machines are set up like a conventional bypass upright. the Air does not need to travel through the hose to get to the nozzle instead there is a separate air path for the nozzle and one for the hose. You can see a little bit of the mechanism used on the Eureka in some of the additional photos.

Post# 393197 , Reply# 98   6/14/2018 at 07:59 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
With Near Kirby Sentria II / Avalir Levels of Airflow

vaclab's profile picture
And a small nozzle area, I would imagine that it doesn't (or it's not recommended) make a seal with the carpet? Without a power assist, the airflow density would be so extreme, it wouldn't be usable on pile carpet. Would owners raise the nozzle up too high and break the seal, or would they simply just not use it on higher pile carpet?

I wonder why such a machine was discontinued?

Bill


Post# 393211 , Reply# 99   6/14/2018 at 12:13 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
I've seen a video of that Ultra MVP comparing against the Royal Everlast 8300 in the airflow "Pipe" test and it surprisingly beat the Royal. I've only seen these a few times and I only turned one on once but I've never really used it. But honestly though, I would've bought any plastic by-pass upright back in the 90's, I would've bought one of these. I think these are probably no doubt the best Dirt Devil they've ever made and I also think it's perhaps the best by-pass upright that was ever made. Although I honestly think the Simplicity 7350 back then was impossible to beat.

Post# 393212 , Reply# 100   6/14/2018 at 12:26 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I wonder how on earth the Dirt Devil Ultra MVP is usable with so crazy cfm. My Vorwerk with 85-90 nozzle cfm is extremely hard to push. For normal use I need to keep the nozzle air release valves open or set motor speed to middle. Otherwise it's almost unusable.

Post# 393214 , Reply# 101   6/14/2018 at 13:14 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Ultra MVP

One of the problems with this machine is the brushroll motor is pretty wimpy and the brushroll will stall due to the machine sealing to the carpeting. I can use it alright on my carpet as long as the height adjustment is set at least to the middle but i've noticed i still get vibration from it on the 2nd highest setting. Rugs are kind of difficult to clean as it tends to clamp onto them.

It is odd that they'd be able to snatch a pipe away from an everlast I've not measured one yet, but I don't think it has more flow than one, but i think it has something to do with the nozzle configurations since the airflow path on the mvp is located at the rear of the nozzle facing foreward at base>? height it's most likely directing it's flow towards the front. I've always felt like Kirbys (and therefore royals) distribute it's flow around the perimeter of the nozzle due to the air path being higher (airflow hits the inside of the nozzle and is spread out more) I could be wrong though it's just an idea.

Other members have told me that I need to get my hands on a Royal Powecast. They too had a short and wide airpath.


Post# 393246 , Reply# 102   6/15/2018 at 10:58 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
So finally I got it. GM8901 Anemometer
This is my first test.
I hope I got it right?

Sorry about the sound quality.





Post# 393251 , Reply# 103   6/15/2018 at 12:17 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Kirby G6 got 121 cfm from the nozzle.

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Post# 393261 , Reply# 104   6/15/2018 at 18:05 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Ah!

Very good Mike! I look forward to seeing your measurements!

Post# 393286 , Reply# 105   6/16/2018 at 00:48 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Fantastic Results With Staggeringly Similar

vaclab's profile picture
Airflow measurements from 4300 miles away from Ohio. I get about 120 CFM from my G6. Can't wait to see more tests.

Bill


Post# 393390 , Reply# 106   6/17/2018 at 14:57 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Can this actually be 134 cfm.
Did I do something wrong?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK


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Post# 393391 , Reply# 107   6/17/2018 at 15:21 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Fabulous results! Does it have a hose?

vaclab's profile picture
How much power does it draw? Seems like a reasonable result. It appears to be in the same general class (120+ CFM) as the SEBO D4, Tristar CXL, Filter Queen M360 and Henry HVR200.

Of course a "hot rodded" Electrolux Marquis with a 12 Amp (1440 Watt) motor is the highest base canister CFM I've seen so far.

As always, repeat the measurement a few times to make sure you get a consistent result.

Bill


Post# 393393 , Reply# 108   6/17/2018 at 15:52 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Now from the hose and after all the testings it got max 97 cfm.
Motor draws more than it should be (1000 watts) I measured over 1200 watts.





Post# 393397 , Reply# 109   6/17/2018 at 17:28 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Interesting.

134 base cfm that's great! When testing hose cfm the hose should be held as straight as possible to get it's maximum flow. How long is the hose on that machine?

Post# 393402 , Reply# 110   6/17/2018 at 19:03 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Base of the vacuum reading was high indeed, but I had the hose tangled up, not straight at all. I am expecting over 100 cfm from the hose end. I should also clean the reusable bag in this Philips.
What was interesting that this should have 1000 watt motor. However It constantly draw nearly 1200 watts. It sounds original 2-stage motor, so I don't think that it has been replaced. Hose is 1.8 meter (5.9 feet) long.


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Post# 393488 , Reply# 111   6/18/2018 at 18:41 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Royal 10 amp

There's a Hoover type A bag in this currently so i'm not convinced that it's functioning at it's peak but just out of curiosity I ran this test just to get a ballpark for it's flow. I was hoping for 150 CFM.

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Post# 393502 , Reply# 112   6/18/2018 at 22:45 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Blackheart

lesinutah's profile picture
Hey
Wow that does look good polished up. I got the royal from my work(Walgreens).
They thought vacuum had shake out bag. I acquired it and the nozzle and vacuum bag was full and couldn't see tube. I blew everything out and out fell a fill tube. I washed bag and patched hole in bag. I recently upgraded sanitaire to type a bag and that is where the bag came from. It was closest fit. I have royal b bags i found.
Maybe if you take off baseplate it might increase airflow. The right bag would help too.
I thought it had more airflow than sentria. The g6 is basically the same and the test show it indeed has more power.
I have a royal backpack vacuum ry4001 that has 8.5 amps. I thought it was 10 or 12 amp but website says 8.5. If I were guess id say it has 105 at hose.
I will. Have to get some tools and do some tests.
Glad to see the royal.
Les


Post# 393538 , Reply# 113   6/19/2018 at 18:28 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Royal 1030 2nd test

I didn't want to wait for proper B hepa bags so i picked up some Royal L bags (similar in size to Hoover A) and got them to fit. So re-doing this and getting nozzle measurements this is the highest density I've seen off any machine with a brushroll.

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Post# 393539 , Reply# 114   6/19/2018 at 18:42 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Kirby and Royal

Yes the Royal beats out a Sentria in terms of pure flow, Bill has measured in 127 cfm for his sentria II and that's about what I got measuring an Avalir, As well as CFM Density. But Strangely my old Legend II narrowly beats it in flow (but not density) at 142.67.

This got me thinking the royal should have the advantage. It not only uses a higher wattage motor but i've heard their fans are deeper than Kirbys. Kirby is also running it's transmission off it's motor on current models. So why is it that the Royal doesn't vastly surpass Kirby? It's the airpath!

A royal's airpath is narrower the bag tube tapers towards the base, has deep groves and i've always felt that a square or rectangular airpath negatively effects airflow.

A Kirby's airpath is both wider and smoother There's a small different at the "bag horn" but the major difference is in the filltube it has a larger area to it and while it has groves all the way along it they are much less pronounced than the Royal's


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Post# 393586 , Reply# 115   6/20/2018 at 15:31 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hey

lesinutah's profile picture
Very good analysis. It makes sense.

Post# 393588 , Reply# 116   6/20/2018 at 16:25 by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Hey Devin, I Think You Meant

vaclab's profile picture
To say that the Sentria 1 gets 127 CFM and the Sentria 2/Avalir gets 137 CFM. :)

And that's with only a 7 Amp motor instead of a Royal's 10 Amp motor.

Bill


Post# 393589 , Reply# 117   6/20/2018 at 16:40 by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Forgot to mention that

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Your Heritage II is stuck running on high speed, which is really just meant for a hose attachment. In low speed, it'll measure right around 120 nozzle CFM.

Bill


Post# 393610 , Reply# 118   6/20/2018 at 18:49 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Bill

lesinutah's profile picture
Amps
The royal has more amps but kirby has more weight 32 to 20. The royal has a half inch bigger fan as well as. 1825 in bigger depth. Metal fan outweighs amodel fan. The kirby has a transmission im not sure that helps with power. The kirby vacuum seals around the rug nozzle alot better royal because nozzle is alot closer to the ground. The kirby has a belt lifter sealing the nozzle the royal has rubber cap bound to lose air. The emptor provides less resistance for airflow. The emptor connector kirby has is alot tighter in kirby.
The kirby design is more effecient moving air. That is how it makes uo for less amps. The heritage weighs 24lbs. The royal is under 20.
I was wondering if altitude would affect the motors. Oxygen level is lower in higher elevations. It affects humans cars etc. Vacuum a and b would have similar differences no matter altitude but it. Makes you wonder if sea levl compared to 5000 ft. How much power is lost.
Just a few random thoughts.
6


Post# 393624 , Reply# 119   6/20/2018 at 20:48 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Les, Where Are You Getting Your Figures?

vaclab's profile picture
My Sentria II weights 23 lbs. and older G-series machines weigh 24 lbs. So if you have a newer Kirby, it's only 3 lbs. heavier than a 10 Amp Royal. I have two Heritage II Legends and they both weigh 19 lbs.

Bill


Post# 393650 , Reply# 120   6/21/2018 at 12:52 by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
My 2 cents...

sptyks's profile picture

I own both, a late model 2011 Kirby Sentria with all of the improvements made to the Sentria II, and a 2008 10 Amp Royal Everlast 8300.

 

I did various types of fine dirt and sand pick up tests on my medium pile living room carpet using these two machines. I used 1/4 cup of dirt, sand and coffee grounds which I rubbed into the carpet. I used my Kirby G3 with Dirt Meter to measure results.

 

I will have to say that The Royal Everlast left visibly less dirt, sand and coffee on the Dirt Meter pads meaning that it picked up more than the Sentria did.

 

 


Post# 393670 , Reply# 121   6/21/2018 at 19:27 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Legend II

Hmm I did replace the speed switch lever it runs at about 550 watts with the nozzle on removing the nozzle and manually depressing the switch it ran at about 550 on low and 750 on high Re-testing it confirming that it is indeed on low I got a figure of 129.48. Huh it must have really been stuck on high....How I managed to not notice this before is beyond me, I grew up with this vacuum.

Either way this makes the Royal the machine with the strongest nozzle flow Beating out the Eureka 4058 (6.5 amp) by 1.05 CFM


Post# 393676 , Reply# 122   6/21/2018 at 21:18 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Weight

lesinutah's profile picture
I have had classic, classic omega, classic ic 3 tradition heritage heritage 2 heritage 2 legend, g3 g4 g6 g diamond old emptor sentria new emotor sentria, royal 880 royal 1030z. I also have diamind. I have everything for avalir just no body.
Old kirbys 2 505s 598 3 510 2 560 561 2 562 a s7 4 d50 6 d80s. I have a riccar supralite 4 sanitare s677. I have a royal ry4001, shark navigator.
Handvacs pa geier model 81, Douglas super bee, kirby vacuette legend w series, roal prince 591,
I can double check my sentria buand g6 but with nozzle i swar it was 32 to 34 and omega thru legend 2 was 23 to 24 lbs. G series has transmission and i believe it wS 32 lbs. Ill doublr check i have no 16 inch nozxle kirbys prior to g se. Ill double check weight and post. I got weights from mailing quite a few machines but ill let you know my numbers.
Les


Post# 393677 , Reply# 123   6/21/2018 at 21:33 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Weight

lesinutah's profile picture
Royal 880 14lbs
Riccar rsl4 8.8lbs
Sanitaire 16lbs
505 14lbs
560 15 lbs
D80 16lbs
G6 23
Sentria 24lbs
If i remember classic thru t2l2 were 19 to 21 lbs. 32lb sentria is all attachments hose shampooer etc. My bad on that. But those are the weights i got.
Les


Post# 393679 , Reply# 124   6/21/2018 at 21:43 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Retest

lesinutah's profile picture
I don't see need to retest. The vacuum has high speed for hose. You want true test results not running on high wouldnt be true test.
Have you done tests on everlast. I hear last american made non commmercial royal.
I have to watch a video on setup. Ive found anamometers and baird meters. Just rest of setup. I seen on vaclabs sentria 2 test i need to rewstch it. I wonder what my d80 would do. If I were a betting man id say low 100. I also believe royal 880 5.5 amp motor and d80 5. 5 amp motor are almost identical. I have a bag assembly for 505 to d80 run hepa bag improves airflow. I just need to get some tools.
Les


Post# 393680 , Reply# 125   6/21/2018 at 21:52 by Lesinutah (Utah)        
Hi

lesinutah's profile picture
I was making a point kirby have smaller motor and weigh more. They have better design than lighter more powerful royal. Thats the point i was getting at. I love royal and kirby vacuums i like my d80 the most and my royal 880. Little differences but all Metal american upright at its best.

Post# 393832 , Reply# 126   6/25/2018 at 09:22 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Dyson DC40 mkII measurements

Nothing really surprising in the airflow, but power usage is totally different than the label says. It only uses around 800 watts. Label says 1100 watts!


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Post# 393843 , Reply# 127   6/25/2018 at 12:15 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Commercial Kärcher upright.
Same as the Sebo BS36 and Windsor Versamatic

Quite good results for this big and heavy 2-motor upright


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Post# 393855 , Reply# 128   6/25/2018 at 14:57 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Huh....

That Karcher did better than expected, nearly as well as the Felix of course it has a wider nozzle so the flow is distributed across a wider area. I also feel like the Felix's brushroll is more effective.

I'd assume it's performance to be similar to the Windsor Versamatic Plus that we use at work.


Post# 393860 , Reply# 129   6/25/2018 at 15:58 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
I also feel that the Felix is better. However optional very stiff brushstrip (red) for the Kärcher might improve it. Cleaning head just feels too big for the airflow what it has.
Kärcher should be pretty much the same as Versamatic. Both are technically Sebo BS36 with different outside design.


Post# 393900 , Reply# 130   6/26/2018 at 11:05 by Mike811 (Finland)        
Philips Performer Pro

mike811's profile picture
One of the last vacuums from the "crazy days" of huge power usage in the EU.
Result was still more than I expected.


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Post# 394008 , Reply# 131   6/28/2018 at 14:41 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
For classic Electrolux canister fans my Lux Royal D790 measurements.

I was very happy to the results :)


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Post# 396431 , Reply# 132   8/8/2018 at 13:54 by blackheart (North Dakota)        
Bummer

I have a soft spot for 90s dirt devils but the nozzle performance on this is laughably bad. It's body to base connection is very much like a direct air machine so its very poorly sealed resulting in getting no pressure at the base as it all just leaks around the joints. I did include the "edge" cleaner as part of it's cleaning path it's airflow density would be just slightly better had I not but *shrugs*

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Post# 396471 , Reply# 133   8/8/2018 at 21:16 by CaptainSlow (Singapore)        
Miele with ET1 (post #89)

Hi Mike, would like to know how did you make the ET1 run with the straight suction Miele?

Post# 396477 , Reply# 134   8/8/2018 at 22:56 by Mike811 (Finland)        
Miele with ET1

mike811's profile picture
I made video about it. Just be very careful when connecting those Miele wires. You can break the circuit board if wrong wires are connected.






Post# 396557 , Reply# 135   8/10/2018 at 09:05 by CaptainSlow (Singapore)        
Miele with ET1

Thanks for sharing Mike. I guess the mods needed is too technical for me, and I wouldn't be keen on drilling a Miele even though I have two now. Would be cool if there was a Miele to Sebo powerhead adapter thingy that could just connect the ET1 to a Miele electro wand, since the Uniq has the plug connection available.

The cost of an SEB236 is close to the price I paid for my Felix. Getting an electro wand+hose won't be cheap, but to get it plus that adapter which doesn't exist would be wayyy cheaper than getting an electro set (wand+hose+PH).





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