Thread Number: 31187  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Dyson engineering ineptitude and complacency
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Post# 344921   2/22/2016 at 13:34 (2,957 days old) by laszlopanaflex (Salt Lake City, UT)        

I've been a long time follower of the Dyson brand well before they launched in the US, having owned almost all of them, including the most recent Cinetic Big Ball and V6 Absolute. My enthusiasm for the brand is starting to wane from what I perceive as engineering ineptitude and complacency through resting on their laurels. In no particular order is a list of issues I have with the brand in regards to their existing product design and product roll-out.

- The center air duct on the existing Dyson Ball uprights: from the DC 40/41 and onward, the Dyson Ball uprights began using an exposed air duct in the center of the clear bin that would attract dust and debris every time the container is emptied. This exposes the motor to dust and dirt every time the machine is started thereafter. It's even more of an issues with the Cinetic uprights. Sure, the cyclones virtually eliminate any dust from bypassing, however, the exposed center duct will still get exposed to dirt that will be sucked directly into the motor. Since the Cinetic uprights use permanently sealed HEPA filters that cannot be cleaned, they will eventually require replacement in a matter of a few years, depending on how much debris is sucked in.

- No electric powerhead for North American canister models. Why? The turbinehead on the Cinetic canister performs worse than that of the DC39 Ball canister. Plenty of consumers know the inadequacies of air driven cleanerheads, as do industry insiders as well....why is Dyson incapable of implementing a decent electric powerhead??

- Cyclonic chambers that take up almost the entire clear bin: Dyson engineers need to go back to the drawing board when it comes to their cyclonic chamber designs, especially their Cinetic system. It's amazing how very little capacity remains in the clear bin, and how often you need to reach into the container to remove chunks of pet hair that simply won't fall out when emptying the container. It would be nice to somehow go back to the old school bins from the DC14/15 era that actually had good debris capacity.

- The Ball keeps getting BIGGER! The Ball, when originally launched, was an iconic design that showcased maneuverability and agility compared to then traditional fixed wheeled vacuums. But now, fixed wheel vacuums are being designed with universal joints that allow not only the same maneuverability as the Ball, but the ability to clean under furniture and low surfaces as well. To further compound the issue, the size of the Ball keeps getting larger, especially on the Cinetic. Perhaps Dyson should shrink the Ball (perhaps go as far as refine the DC18 Slim design, and take the motor out of the Ball), use a lighter weight Dyson Digital Motor to cut down weight, and a protruding, lower profile, direct drive beater bar.

The engineers over at Dyson have had many successes, but it seems like the progression in their designs has slowed down considerably. Perhaps the current CEO, Max Conze, is limiting their potential to bring to the market some wild new innovations, or perhaps the engineers themselves think there isn't much they can improve. Either way, they need to look at the competition to perhaps gain some inspiration on where they can go next. My current machine, a Kenmore [Panasonic] CrossoverUltra upright is, by my estimation, a very impressive machine. I really appreciate the flat cleaner head with the universal joint feels just as maneuverable as my Cinetic, but is actually able to clean under tables and furniture as well. I also appreciate that it's light weight, has a long cord, yields strong suction, has a suction regulator on both the handle (for attachments), and on the cleaner head (much like the Dyson units in Europe), in addition to neat little gimmicks like a UV dirt sensor and LED headlights. The thing that I did most is the lift-away canister design (that's all the rage these days) with the attached telescopic wand w/floor nozzle that's instantly ready to go for stairs and bare floors. I'd like to see what kind of lift-away upright Dyson would come up with, but then again, I'm sure they'd much rather have their customers buy V6 cordless units, instead.

Most importantly, I feel that it performs every but as good as the Cinetic, but at a cost that's half that of the Cinetic ($350 vs. $700).

Hopefully Dyson engineers can come up with some designs in the near future that can alleviate the flaws that I outlined above. In addition, I hope Dyson engineers can kick it into high gear, because they really need a game changer on the market soon. Bissell, EuroPro, and TTI are swiftly taking away market share.


Post# 344953 , Reply# 1   2/22/2016 at 16:23 (2,957 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Dirt Containers

blackheart's profile picture
I agree, the design of the dirt bin on the 40 onwards is horrid, I HATE that the seals and motor intake get covered in dust while emptying it. I've honestly been tempted to go back to an older unit just to avoid this.

Post# 344955 , Reply# 2   2/22/2016 at 16:28 (2,957 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Dyson

Not a fan here. I'd drop the parts and eventually crack them.

Post# 344959 , Reply# 3   2/22/2016 at 16:50 (2,957 days old) by s_matt37 (Utah)        

The ball is a good idea, but eliminating fixed wheel machines from their lineup is a very bad idea. I would prefer a fixed wheel machine, as the ball seems to strain my wrist uncomfortably. Bring back fixed wheels!

Post# 344961 , Reply# 4   2/22/2016 at 17:20 (2,957 days old) by rugsucker (Elizabethton TN)        
Just today a customer brought in a Dyson ball--

--they DID NOT say-"We love it and will pay anything to make it work right!"
--they DID say--"I is not working.If you can fix it cheap we will take it upstairs.We already bought a $40 vacuum for downstairs."(Turns out it was clogged with Christmas needles & paper.)


Post# 344963 , Reply# 5   2/22/2016 at 17:32 (2,956 days old) by Miskini (Northville, Michigan )        

miskini's profile picture
I know how you feel Keith. I feel the same way about Kirby. I use to love them, but lack of any new improvements in the last 20+ years has left me disappointed. I can't figure out for the life of me what their engineering dept. does when they punch in.
Oh well, there's always riccar.


Post# 344966 , Reply# 6   2/22/2016 at 18:10 (2,956 days old) by Ctvacman (CT)        

Yes... Very annoying with dust going to the center tube when you empty and going to the motor if your a regular consumer that doesn't notice that

Post# 344968 , Reply# 7   2/22/2016 at 18:36 (2,956 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

No vacuum is perfect and there never will be because they are man made. But Dyson are great vacuums and since the DC01 they have made HUGE improvements and everytime a new model is launched it gets better and better, they slowly evolve and carefully think about he life of a vacuum in a home.

They used to use plastic which was ABS, now they use more flexible plastic which absorbs shock. Not too flexible or it will dent and be extremely flimsy, but solid enough to use and strong enough to not break.

The performance on their new balls is better than ever

The wand set up on their uprights has improved- On the DC01 it was just an uncomfortable stick.

The Dc03 and 04 came out with an actual handle grip, bu when using the wand the handle is the end of the wand.

The Dc07 came out and had a reversible wand which is better because you can still hold the handle end making it more comfortable. The DC14 improved over the DC07 because the wand is not telescopic, so no nonsense of the "reversible" feature, it's much quicker. The filters also have a larger surface area to capture more allergens.

The DC25 improved from the Dc14 because the wand now pulls out rather than unclipping.

The DC40 and DC41 improved from the DC25 by using plastic to make it more lighter weight, not being fragile and it just comes out instead of pulling out.

The DC25 wand was prone to being jammed in the hose.

Even the 22 year old DA001 has a better wand and hose setup than a modern TOL Vax and Hoover. Sorry but I do't like assembling wands, bending over to pull the hose out and all that faff.

The Dyson DC41 now has a larger surface area filter to capture more allergens

The tools have improved. The brush on the crevice tool is pretty big on the DC40/41/65/75 etc and saves time swapping tools

The mini turbine head doesn't stop when it hits the surface, it speeds up. Half the suction goes to the surface and half goes to the turbine. Also, it's designed for above the floor cleaning for upholstery etc so why have sealed suction? Airflow is key.

The tangle free turbine them came out which is literally tangle free


If you ask me, they have come a long way, successfully. Look at ALL they done in 22 years. Dyson is one of the most newest vacuums brands, yet have done MUCH more than other brands have which are older.

Dyson could have continued selling the Dc01 which sold like hot cakes and been like "oh yeah we done it. Why make more when we are already raking it in?"

The reason why Dyson did the airflow design like that to the DC40/41 etc is because it's direct airflow and making is simpler.



It angers me as to why people despise Dyson when there is no need. It just hacks me off, they deserve respect.

If it wasn't for Dyson, there would be no Fantoms, Hoover Windtunnels/Mach ranges/Airs, and all the other good bagless vacuums.

Atleast Dyson are persevering in developing their products so be fantastic, meanwhile other brands were being lazy with traditional vacuum designs and mechanics, shoving stupidly high wattage vacuum motors in them to make them seem powerful.

I understand that Kirby is a well respected vacuum brand, bu they have hardly developed over time, they have but not much. Dyson have evolved way more but get judged for their flaws.

Kirby's are loved in America, because they are better suited. Us Brits love Dyson way more than Americans do because they suit us better in our style of homes and flooring, but Kirby's aren't well loved here.

Really? All vacuums have flaws. I can point out a handful of flaws in any vacuum, because none are perfect.

They were too lazy, but they had to stop because the EU regulations for vacuums came in ;D

Dyson Engineers are always designing and developing new products and I'm sure they will have improved versions of their current models. They have over 40 different models and they never said they will not be designing new products, so I don't see the need in complaining :)


Post# 344984 , Reply# 8   2/22/2016 at 19:24 (2,956 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Dyson hand dryers,

on the other hand, Rock!
To each their own I say. I'm old school I suppose. In my day, they were made with US Steel.


Post# 345001 , Reply# 9   2/22/2016 at 22:49 (2,956 days old) by Impfac ()        

Dysons are overly complex just for the sake of looks and marketing.

Most recently I picked up a DC25 and have never been able to get the brush off the crevice tool because of the locking tab; the wand is difficult to get on and off; the upright lock is finicky and pops out, the power head is held together with tape, the brush power switch doesn't work reliably, etc.

Every Dyson I've come across has a million flimsy plastic parts that break, often to do something with more parts more complexly that other vacuums do with less parts better, like the hose/handle contraption.

And to top it off, none of the Dyson vacuums I've had have held a candle to my $120 Eureka Heavy Duty cyclonic upright, a nice, simple, reliable upright that cleans the heck out of anything.

Its near the bottom for reliability (~16/18 in 2016) for % needing repairs. Kenmore is vastly better. Dyson is junk.


Post# 345047 , Reply# 10   2/23/2016 at 02:12 (2,956 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

Impfac, all those issues have been rectified on the new ball models, the head is held in by a removable & replaceable bracket rather than a clip. The upright lock has no stabiliser, it just reclines but it strong enough to wheel room to room. The wand just comes our rather than pulling out and unclipping. The brush is not designed to be removed because it's a combination tool.

Post# 345054 , Reply# 11   2/23/2016 at 04:04 (2,956 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

We need to remember that Dyson are not a vacuum cleaner manufacturer, they are a "Technology Powehouse" or whatever the current description may be. If James Dyson had found a way of transforming a gas fire or a box of cornflakes and then marketing it successfully, he would have done. It just so happened that his "idea" was an improvement on a household product that most homes in the developed world own.

Furthermore, he was able to tap-in to all the right trends of the consumer, and his launch of the DC01 in the UK was timed well with the demise of Hoover and the waning sales of the last vacuum cleaner craze - the Vax 3-in-1 cleaner.

However, in a bid to keep customers coming back for more, they keep changing the product, and every new cleaner is sold on the back of how much better it is than the one before. Well that's ok; any manufacture has the consumer interest and of course make sure they keep buying new, but it's a very fine line between nudging people into something "better" and pushing them too far to the point where they say that they can't compete any more so they are giving up. I think Dyson is going too far now and too fast.

There have been so many changes to Dyson cleaners in recent times, and there are so many models to choose. The prices -whilst consistent with the price from 1993- are very high compared to other makes where the price has plummeted disproportionately. There comes a point where consumers think "it's just a vacuum cleaner". You have to draw a line in the sand at times and say enough is enough.

Classic example is washing powders. Many TV commercials would show how colours fade when a garment is washed over and over again. This is true, but the difference is only noted when a new garment is put against the old. A pair of faded black trousers will still look perfectly fine so long as the fading is uniform. Unless a consumer wants to keep buying new clothes they have to make do with what they have, as the truth is it's perfectly acceptable to use for the day to day activities they need to be worn for.


Post# 345060 , Reply# 12   2/23/2016 at 05:09 (2,956 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
powerhouse,

Yes, true. So maybe the same Chinese factory makes Dysons as Sharks then.
At any rate, my 1996 Hoover Central vacuum is a powerhouse, as is my 1980 3.7 horsepower Eureka power team model 1289. Never clog, no bags for the central vac either. Even when the 7 Litre Eureka style B or S bags are 3/4 full, still plenty of suction.


Post# 345073 , Reply# 13   2/23/2016 at 07:03 (2,956 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Actually no Dyson are made in Malaysia but designed in the UK, they were not allowed to expand their malmesbury factory in the UK so has no choice but to move abroad, they had no choice. People think it's cost cutting but they are wrong. It's for the best and loom at them now! They have even come a long way from th DC07 and DC08 which were the last to be produced in the UK.

Post# 345074 , Reply# 14   2/23/2016 at 07:23 (2,956 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Vacerator and Impfac are misinformed they need to do a bit more research and maybe actually try Dysons latest models before they give views on them .

The latest Dysons especially the DC41 Mk2 which is a fantastic performing vacuum cleaner its up there with the very best now.


Post# 345075 , Reply# 15   2/23/2016 at 07:32 (2,956 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Totally^ I also own a DC41 MK2 and its the best performing vacuum I have ever used especially performance wise

Post# 345079 , Reply# 16   2/23/2016 at 08:25 (2,956 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Alex, Pawarz,

Why were they not allowed to expand the UK factory?
I was watching David Cameron and parliament on C-Span this morning.
Stay in the E,U, or exit? Imaginary sovereignty?
It was rather circus like.
Foreign banks may discriminate against Britain if you do exit?
Seems from what I read, the current building boom in the London area isn't too good for working class folks. You can't afford anything much larger than an efficiency, and often two families buy one 2 bedroom row house so they can at least own vs. rent.
Some times, I dislike globalization as well.


Post# 345103 , Reply# 17   2/23/2016 at 10:52 (2,956 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Need to learn more,

Perhaps so young Paul in Bristol. Then again, I only have 23 years on you. Peace, and prosperity to all!

Post# 345105 , Reply# 18   2/23/2016 at 11:00 (2,956 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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To you too

Post# 345111 , Reply# 19   2/23/2016 at 12:19 (2,956 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Dyson lovers...

sptyks's profile picture

The modern Dyson vacuum is nothing but an over engineered pile of hundreds of plastic parts that just don't hold up with any kind of frequent usage before something goes wrong.

The only metal part in the entire machine is the motor. If Dyson could figure out how to make a motor out of plastic they would do it. There are several other vacuums that are not overly complex, cost half the price of the average Dyson but perform as well or better.

People are mostly attracted to Dyson because of it's appearance. There's all the brightly colored plastic plastic components shaped in a futuristic design but actual performance is only slightly better than average.

 

Now most everyone on here knows I am a Kirby fan, but I will not go there today.

 

Let's look at another extremely well built vacuum that is almost impossible to beat in performance tests. It is the Dual Motor Tandem Air Maytag built by Tacony Corp in the USA. The Maytag has many metal components such as metal sole plate, metal foot release lever and cord hooks for example and costs around half the price of the Dyson Cinetic. I think Dyson is taking it's customers for a ride.

 

And that's just my 2 cents worth folks.


Post# 345112 , Reply# 20   2/23/2016 at 12:29 (2,956 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Everything that's not American is rubbish to you sparty :-)

Post# 345121 , Reply# 21   2/23/2016 at 14:10 (2,956 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

I heard it costs more to make plastic tubes than metal tubes? Somewhere on VL...


Also, some vacuum motors are plastic but Dyson motors are metal (Exept the DC01 Ametek Motor and a DC04 non clutched motor), Dyson used to have metal wands and poles, but changed to plastic to make them lighter weight

I do love Kirby though, Really want either a Sentria or an Avalir! :D Lovely jubbly


Post# 345122 , Reply# 22   2/23/2016 at 14:43 (2,956 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        
Powerhouse

Sorry, when I said that, I was using the term generically. I didn't realise it was also the name of a factory.

I doubt the public will ever know the true reasons why Dyson took production out of the UK. The refusal of permission to expand their factory is only one of many stories that have gone round society in the last 15 years.


Post# 345127 , Reply# 23   2/23/2016 at 16:28 (2,956 days old) by Madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)        

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Having been a Dyson fan and admiring James Dyson from the early 90's and owning a DC01 along with 7 other Dyson vacuums along the way up to the DC16, I no longer own any. I'll be honest in saying I don't in tend to own any in the future. Still admire James Dyson for what he has done in terms of his company and encouraging engineering and design in the young (or anyone for that matter).

I agree not one vacuum is perfect it is what suits the owner/user to their requirements that counts. A Dyson vacuum might suit some people where as another brand suits others.

The company has changed more so since it's gone Global, James handed the business over to someone with business experience to run the day to day part some years ago, while he concentrated on the engineering side with his engineers which he really loves doing.

From a personal view I do feel the Dyson vacuum is becoming over engineered too complex design for what it actually needs to be. Some of the best design and engineering is the most simplest but that I suppose doesn't apply to all things!! The only one in the current range is the cordless digital slim models that in overall form is a simple engineered/designed product nothing complex! I don't get why they are designing complex machines for what is and has always been a simple task around the home be it vacuuming carpets, hard floors or above floor cleaning!

I'm sure I read somewhere recently they are doing more trade in promotions (although you don't have to trade in an old vacuum cleaner!) because sales are down like for like over the last few years! Number of reasons for this I suppose!

These are issues I see on their Facebook time and time again and other social media pages from frustrated owners that have paid £300 - £400 plus on their vacuums:

Owners complain about hoses (uprights) ripping or breaking within a year or so
Owners complain of blockages more on the latest designs over older designs
Standard reply if an owners Dyson doesn't pickup on carpet or hard flooring - you have the wrong type flooring!!
Owners being told what type of dust and dirt they can use the Dyson to pickup

Of course they are a very well known company so any negative comments are picked up more and homed in on which is the same for any company in a similar position. These issues need to be addressed (which they may be in hand!) as it does have an effect on current owners and future new customers! One thing I read time again is some Dyson owners prefer their older Dyson vacuums over the new models they now have!! That's worrying and might be why sales have dropped! Word gets about!

Not everyone is liking the complete range of ball technology but I don't see them ever going back to using wheels on their uprights! If anything cordless will be their products of the future especially having recently purchased a Battery Company! As James Dyson keeps says lean engineering, less is more!!


Post# 345128 , Reply# 24   2/23/2016 at 16:31 (2,956 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Metal, vs. pastic, etc.

Cost to make plastics also depends on the price of a barrel of crude oil.
I say it's more likely the labor cost. Malaysia has a lower cost of living, but once you pay to ship things back, you don't save much today.
Hoover also left. Service jobs replaced them, as the plant is now a Tesco.


Post# 345132 , Reply# 25   2/23/2016 at 17:37 (2,955 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        

Eureka The Boss 1934 best low-price upright made thanks to its direct-air design; but no on-board tools

U can upgrade the standard wooden roller (2 bristles & 2 plastic beater bars) to a all-steel VibraGroomer 1 or 2


Post# 345184 , Reply# 26   2/23/2016 at 23:01 (2,955 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
dyson vacuum

I'm not a fan of bagless vacuums, so I would never own a Dyson vacuum, but based on reading, there seem to be several issues. First, none of the current model canisters that I know of include a motorized power nozzle, just a turbine. For the price Dyson charges for these vacuums, it should have a motorized power head. The top of the line Kenmore canisters cost less and include this. A turbine will never clean as well as an electric power nozzle, and will clog much more easily since everything that is vacuumed goes through the turbine. The Dyson vacuums also seem to have quality issues, a lot of the reviews talk about parts breaking or not holding together. I'm heard more than one vacuum shop say they have a nick name for the Dyson, they call them die soon. For the price that Dyson charges, you can get something with much better quality and that probably cleans better as well.

Post# 345189 , Reply# 27   2/24/2016 at 00:42 (2,955 days old) by Dys0nb0y (Luton)        

dys0nb0y's profile picture
N0oxy I think you're mistaking the reviews don't talk about them breaking and not holding together they talk about they not feeling very well built and flimsy but being made at a very strong plastic it especially applies to the current models And Dyson did have quite a few issues with the original Dyson DC41 and Dc40 so that's why. Ps die soon has been around for many many years and it came from some hater

Post# 345193 , Reply# 28   2/24/2016 at 01:43 (2,955 days old) by henrydreyfuss (Ohio)        
So close to greatness

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I own the V6 Absolute, and aside from the clogging shroud that leads to fairly frequent messy cleaning, it's the best cordless product I've ever used. Still love it and use it often!

Their bagless tech has seen great advances in effectiveness, but has also regressed in the ways the first poster described. Mainly, their upright vacuums pulling small amounts of dust through the motor after each time you empty the bin. Why?! This has been going on for almost 5 years now!

Dyson sits on the best filtration systems in the world. What bothers me is that their Cinetic series are the only Dyson vacuums currently using their patented, superior, level-3 root cyclone technology. Throw a pre-filter under the bin or motor-inlet of the Cinetic upright, and you would have a vac you could offer a legit brushbar (like a Quadraflex, instead of this one row nonsense), and extremely low filter-maintenance. Instead, their flagship model is engineered to work within filtration restrictions. I was so hyped about the Cinetic upright, but personally witnessed the same problems laszlopanaflex described, and sold it.


Post# 345199 , Reply# 29   2/24/2016 at 03:39 (2,955 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

Nooxy, sorry but especially when you haven't owned a Dyson. You said "A turbine will never clean as well as an electric power nozzle, and will clog much more easily since everything that is vacuumed goes through the turbine. The Dyson vacuums also seem to have quality issues, a lot of the reviews talk about parts breaking or not holding together. I'm heard more than one vacuum shop say they have a nick name for the Dyson, they call them die soon. For the price that Dyson charges, you can get something with much better quality and that probably cleans better as well. "

Well, sorry but that is false. Dyson have even developed their own turbine head, he dirt NEVER touches the turbine, instead some suction goes to the turbine, whilst the rest goes to the brushbar. The brush still spins quite fast, bu when the suction is blocked, it has nowhere to go other than to the turbine, so the brush speeds up. That's clever, why isn't anyone even talking about this? All I hear is people putting them down.

Dyson parts are hard to snap now, literally they changed the plastic material so they are now shock absorbing. Why do cars have flexible plastic instead of solid plastic in their interiors? To absorb shocks. Dyson is the same that way.

I doubt you have been used a new modern Dyson ball? Well the performance of those is pretty much one of the best you can get on the market today, if not the best.


Post# 345202 , Reply# 30   2/24/2016 at 04:10 (2,955 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
It's not worth arguing Tayyab people get set in their ways and can't see the wood from the trees :-)

Post# 345205 , Reply# 31   2/24/2016 at 06:07 (2,955 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Sebo4me,

True Paul. I also in some respects, but I try to be open minded.
We tend to become our parents.
Some my age also have problems with other wood, and take Viagra.


Post# 345209 , Reply# 32   2/24/2016 at 06:37 (2,955 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Mark you're right

I rest my case!


Post# 345210 , Reply# 33   2/24/2016 at 06:38 (2,955 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Haha are we talking about a wood here or a twig? :-p

Post# 345216 , Reply# 34   2/24/2016 at 08:44 (2,955 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        

Hahaaa! Good one, but I don't need to compensate.
As they say in Italy, "tutti grande', nella piccolezi.
It's also in the method. Cooking, or otherwise.


Post# 345217 , Reply# 35   2/24/2016 at 08:59 (2,955 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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This is true :-)

Post# 345227 , Reply# 36   2/24/2016 at 12:40 (2,955 days old) by 3rdGenVacGuy (Columbus, Ohio )        

The problem I have with Dyson here in the states, is that they seem to be designed more for the European market instead of the U.S. market. Models like the dc07 , dc14 do not seem to have enough bristle for our vast oceans of wall to wall plush carpets. Now the dc17 was my favorite for "our" carpets, and I believe the new cinetic big ball has a decent brush as well. Another problem is with small parts. Quite a few small parts are not available seperately, so you must buy a complete sub assembly. On our DC41 models if you break the latch, which also chain reacts to empty the dust bin, you must buy the complete cyclone assembly. I have seen the latch available on Ebay over in Europe, but cannot tell if it is the same as the U.S. version. When Dyson first came to the U.S. I thought all of the bright colored latches, clips, etc., looked like they would break. Turns out most Dysons hold up very well. People can and will break anything. Just sold a Kirby Sentria aluminum casting for the main handle because they managed to break it in half.

Post# 345230 , Reply# 37   2/24/2016 at 14:12 (2,955 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Dyson are not alone with that approach. TTI are just as bad as are Hoover Europe - they launch the vacuums first and then you have to wait nth amount of months or YEARS until spare parts are available.

Post# 345233 , Reply# 38   2/24/2016 at 15:54 (2,955 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
dyson on youtube videos

It's possible these could be rigged, but there are lots of youtube videos where someone will clean a floor with a dyson, then use a Miele, Ricccar, or some other brand and point out how much better the second vacuum cleans compared to the Dyson. Supposedly the Dyson's only clean the surface, but these other brands remove whatever is deeper in the carpet.

Post# 345242 , Reply# 39   2/24/2016 at 16:43 (2,955 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
rigged demo's;

I believe they could be if done by a dealer. Some only want to sell you a high end pricey machine.

Post# 345255 , Reply# 40   2/24/2016 at 19:38 (2,954 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
dyson hose sizes

Just curious, on the Dyson canister models, what is the hose size? Is it at all standard, can you use standard attachments or is the hose size nonstandard?

Post# 345285 , Reply# 41   2/25/2016 at 07:11 (2,954 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
n0oxy,

No. The Dyson attachment holes are smaller. In order to use US standard "dussen" or tool, an adapter must be used, as with some US uprights.
"dussen" is deutsche for nozzle.


Post# 345297 , Reply# 42   2/25/2016 at 08:54 (2,954 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)        

oliveoiltinfoil's profile picture
I dont see how the size of a room has anything to do with if a vacuums brushbar can cope or not. Surely the type of carpet would have more of an impact. Unless also if you are talking about the width of the cleaning path, in which case, dyson are no different to most vacuums in Europe or the US, although i know there are some hoover and bissell models with extra wide cleaning paths.


Post# 345303 , Reply# 43   2/25/2016 at 09:23 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
They like a 15 incher in the USA Oli. They like big things over there. I'll say no more :-)

Post# 345305 , Reply# 44   2/25/2016 at 09:32 (2,954 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
dyson comparison videos

Hey everyone, here are some of the comparison videos I had mentioned. Should make for some interesting discussion. First, here are a few comparing Dysson to the Riccar.









Now here is Dyson and Sebo



And now here is Dyson verses Miele














Post# 345306 , Reply# 45   2/25/2016 at 09:40 (2,954 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Paul,

That's only in Texas!
Bigger houses, bigger bbque's, bigger attitudes.
How many extra vacuuming strokes does it take to clean a room that is an extra couple feet larger, wether if the nozzle is ten, twelve, or 15 iches?
If you vacuum to fast, you are not deep cleaning as well.
Texas also wants to increase their speed limit 80 MPH. Our national limit is 70.
Lets see, 100 km/hr is 60 mph. So, 80 mph would be about 140 km/hr?
What would MUM say?


Post# 345309 , Reply# 46   2/25/2016 at 09:52 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
I find a 12 inch floorhead easier to manoeuvre around furniture etc

Mike you have to take into account they are trying to sell Riccar or Miele.

I could show you a video of the latest Dyson picking up lots of dust that the Kirby left behind.


Post# 345310 , Reply# 47   2/25/2016 at 09:54 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Post# 345316 , Reply# 48   2/25/2016 at 10:21 (2,954 days old) by blakaeg (NW London, UK)        

Hello Tayyab,

I hope you are keeping well!

Whilst I agree with you that soft plastic is more absorbent and probably better for shock absorption. I myself prefer the feel and look of older Dysons. Just my preference. Please don't hold that against me lol.

The DC50 machine was absolutely awful. Soft plastic handle that flexed so much in use. Glad to see that Dyson listen to complaints made (I myself complained to them) they have now gone back to the aluminium wand, just like on the DC24. It feels better and more solidly constructed. Glad to see they made this move.


Post# 345317 , Reply# 49   2/25/2016 at 10:23 (2,954 days old) by blakaeg (NW London, UK)        

Sorry Tayyab I was referring to the Small Ball when I was talking about the new aluminium wand.

I wish Dyson would make their machines quieter though, even though the Small Ball is 30% quieter than the DC50, its still loud.


Post# 345321 , Reply# 50   2/25/2016 at 10:58 (2,954 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
This video is not valid!...

sptyks's profile picture

Here are just a few problems that need to be addressed before this video can be considered valid:

 

1. There was no Kirby visible or anywhere in sight during the entire video. He probably only vacuumed with just the Dyson. 

2. He did not mention the year and model Kirby that was used. Was it an older model? 

3. So when was the fantom Kirby's bag last changed? 

4. How full was said Kirby's bag? 

5. How well was the fantom Kirby maintained ie condition of belt and brush roll? 

6. Was the floor nozzle set to the correct height for that carpet?

 

If someone was to make a valid video comparing the cleaning ability of two vacuums, then the above issues should have been addressed to the viewers.

 

 


Post# 345324 , Reply# 51   2/25/2016 at 11:13 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Haha I wondered how long it would take for Stan to make an appearance :-)

He has done many videos of his Kirby Sentria. He maintains it very well.
He also has a Rainbow.
He does some good videos :-)


Post# 345326 , Reply# 52   2/25/2016 at 11:26 (2,954 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Everyone knows The Golden Rule of vacuum testing is:

 

He who vacuums last always wins.

 

 


Post# 345328 , Reply# 53   2/25/2016 at 11:40 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
That is true but you wouldn't think such a crappy dyson would pick up so much dirt after a very thorough vacuuming with a Kirby Sentria :-0

Post# 345330 , Reply# 54   2/25/2016 at 11:45 (2,954 days old) by 3rdGenVacGuy (Columbus, Ohio )        

When I mentioned that in the states we had oceans of plush carpet, I meant that I think we have more wall to wall carpets than most people in Europe. It seems that you have more solid surfaces. Although the U.S. seems to be going towards solid surfaces as well. I also prefer normal width vacuums for their manueverability over widepath machines. The point I was trying to make was that most vacuums over here have a more aggressive brush design, not that a Dyson's width of cleaning was inefficient.

Post# 345331 , Reply# 55   2/25/2016 at 11:47 (2,954 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
As with any challenge

Too Many variables.

Only way to accurately measure, is a clean piece of carpet, measured amount in, and measured the amount out.

 

Other variables are methods of vacuuming, speed, adjustments, overlapping of passes etc.

 

 

 

 


Post# 345334 , Reply# 56   2/25/2016 at 12:03 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Yes there are variables Harley which makes it hard to judge.

And Harley yes they do have more aggressive agitation on cleaners such as Riccar and Royal which I have used on my travels to the US. They clean very affectively but do they wear out carpet prematurely?


Post# 345339 , Reply# 57   2/25/2016 at 12:27 (2,954 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

You have to find a balance.

You can clean your fine china with steel wool and a power washer, but do you need to.

 

As far as premature wear of a carpet. I have never heard of a Royal, Simplicity, Riccar or even Kirby causing wear, as they all have a Gold rating with CRI.  However, I have heard complaints bout Dyson causing damage.

 

My look at it is: If your carpet is so delicate that you can only clean it with fairy wings and pixie dust; you may want to stick to a straight suction cleaner--or replace the carpet.

 


Post# 345341 , Reply# 58   2/25/2016 at 12:35 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Pixie dust? Is that legal? :-)

Post# 345343 , Reply# 59   2/25/2016 at 13:17 (2,954 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Paul, legal etc.

It is legal in south beach where Starina performs with Twyla.
"Bird Cage", 1996.


Post# 345344 , Reply# 60   2/25/2016 at 13:20 (2,954 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
If I had to

Lug a vacuum up and down stairs, I'd take the James D over a Kirby.

Post# 345345 , Reply# 61   2/25/2016 at 13:21 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Haha. That's the film with 3 drag queens isn't it? Very appropriate for this site :-)

Post# 345346 , Reply# 62   2/25/2016 at 13:27 (2,954 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Drag,

One does like a hint of color now.
I have never done drag. Not only would I need to shave a lot, or use much hair dabilitory cream, it's not my thing. I like to watch it though.


Post# 345347 , Reply# 63   2/25/2016 at 13:34 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
It's a very funny film. I only dress up in drag on a Friday night. I do a great Shirley Bassey. Hey big spender.

Post# 345348 , Reply# 64   2/25/2016 at 13:56 (2,954 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Marcus

Pixie dust is still  legal with a prescription.   Tinker-bell will be your local contact.  I caution you around Peter-Pan as he has been known to snort the stuff, and then--you do not want to know what happens.

 

Don't let Tink know your useful intentions as she gets a little upset when people go harvesting Fairy wings.  You gotta understand her sensitivity.


Post# 345351 , Reply# 65   2/25/2016 at 14:44 (2,954 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

Regarding the original topic - "Dyson engineering ineptitude and complacency" - who really knows what the engineers are up to? Does anyone track their patents? Even then you probably need to be an insider to have any idea what their engineers are up to. Engineers aren't the only ones involved in getting new products/features to market.




Post# 345352 , Reply# 66   2/25/2016 at 14:51 (2,954 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Why do these threads always degenerate into nonsense?

I mean Pixie Dust, Fairy Wings???

 

Let's get back on track and discuss something meaningful.

 

 


Post# 345353 , Reply# 67   2/25/2016 at 15:01 (2,954 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Why do these threads always degenerate into nonsense?

Well there was a flow to the conversation. 

Exaggeration, sarcasm

 

Poor horsey, poor dead horsey.

 


Post# 345354 , Reply# 68   2/25/2016 at 15:03 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Sometimes they start off with nonsense :-)

Post# 345355 , Reply# 69   2/25/2016 at 15:04 (2,954 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Vacuum Test - Dyson vs Kirby...

sptyks's profile picture

Marcus: If you really want to convince someone as to the best dirt removing vacuum, then you would make a video like this which definitely shows that a ten year old Kirby can out clean a brand new Dyson DC65 fresh out of the box:

 

 





Post# 345356 , Reply# 70   2/25/2016 at 15:07 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture


Post# 345357 , Reply# 71   2/25/2016 at 15:11 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Hmmmm is he a Kirby salesman by any chance?

Post# 345360 , Reply# 72   2/25/2016 at 15:24 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
I'm going to buy a used Kirby soon and try it out against my Dyson, Sebo and Miele.
The Kirby might clean better but there won't be a great deal in it. 5% at the most.


Post# 345361 , Reply# 73   2/25/2016 at 15:27 (2,954 days old) by Madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)        

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Don't they say the lvacuum that goes last always wins!?



Post# 345364 , Reply# 74   2/25/2016 at 15:32 (2,954 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
They do Jon which is why it's difficult to prove which cleans better. But I still want to try it for myself

You would expect the Kirby to clean better being a direct air motor but I don't think it will be as much as some say.


Post# 345368 , Reply# 75   2/25/2016 at 15:45 (2,954 days old) by Madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)        

madaboutsebo's profile picture
Totally agree Paul, why not you go for it let us know what you find when you do.

True, there varying factors too!




Post# 345373 , Reply# 76   2/25/2016 at 16:24 (2,954 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

Hi Blakaeg

I am doing well thanks! I hope you are also :)

I actually agree with you, and we all have our opinions lol- I prefer the feel of an older Dyson aswell, but the fragility of them is a bit annoying for me (I had lots of DC07's, Dc04's and DC01's with cracked plastics, but the newer ones are stronger but feel more flimsy. I find that the DC14 is the most well built Dyson vacuum because it feels very solid, and the plastic isn't fragile, the wand is very solid and sturdy but if I were to try and snap it off, it would bend but with extreme force

Regarding the DC50, funnily enough my cousin bought a new 700w DC50 and it's good but the wand handle is horrible, literally the longer something it, the more flexible it's going to be, right? The DC50 is the perfect example :o
I like the Small ball, looks like a better built machine :)

-Tayyab


Post# 345374 , Reply# 77   2/25/2016 at 16:26 (2,954 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

Oh and FYI guys, the video above with the Riccar brilliance, the new Dysons can agitate as well as that can, if not better.

No matter how good a Kirby can clean, I would still pick my DC41 Mk2. It deep cleans perfectly fine and we don't have thick carpets anyway. I ahve only one and it still does well on that. At least the DC41 Mk2 looks modern and doesn't need the cleaner head taking off too fit the hose, I can use it within the blink of an eye and I just love the colours. Kirbys are very inconvenient for British homes and homes in the UK are getting smaller now! We need smaller vacuums. Kirbys are fantastic for American homes because they are huge because America has WAY more land than the UK does so you can have bigger houses as a benefit.



Post# 345377 , Reply# 78   2/25/2016 at 17:04 (2,954 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)        

dys0nb0y's profile picture
In the vs videos it's funny how in all of them they either use a broken or a 2 3 4 8 10 year old model or a inferior model,and in kode1996 video the Kirby is in the back and it's a sentria 2.


  View Full Size
Post# 345386 , Reply# 79   2/25/2016 at 18:31 (2,953 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
last posted video, Kirby's etc.

did not upload properly.
Paul, a Kirby will not have as much suction or airflow as a Dyson.
Remember, A Kirby has a soft bag. No closed suction chamber.
A Dyson is essentially a sealed cylinder type cleaner turned upright.
Now, to the person who was critical of us having a little fairy dust fun:
Don't be like Ferris Beuhler's principal with a chunk of coal you know where, that might exit as a diamond.


Post# 345388 , Reply# 80   2/25/2016 at 18:34 (2,953 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Kirby video,

So why didn't he dump the flour and soda back on the carpet and use the Kirby?

Post# 345491 , Reply# 81   2/26/2016 at 11:24 (2,953 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Vacerator:

sptyks's profile picture

Why would you want to dump the contents of the Dyson back on the floor? That would defeat the purpose of the Dirtmeter test. Are you not familiar with how a Dirtmeter works?

 

 


Post# 345493 , Reply# 82   2/26/2016 at 11:30 (2,953 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Vacerator:

sptyks's profile picture

It is a known fact that a Kirby has way more Airflow than a dyson. The Kirby relies on Agitation and Airflow not suction to clean carpets. The rotating brushroll Agitates the carpet as the tremendous airflow moves it into the bag.


Post# 345497 , Reply# 83   2/26/2016 at 11:45 (2,953 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Suction and airflow are 2 sides of the same coin. Without suction there's no airflow.
Doesn't matter if it's a direct air motor or clean air motor they both work on the same principle.
They create a drop in ambient pressure.


Post# 345501 , Reply# 84   2/26/2016 at 13:07 (2,953 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Marcus:

sptyks's profile picture

You must have been asleep in your high school Physics classes. Suction and airflow ARE NOT the same thing! If they are the same, then why is each one measured differently?

Suction is measured in inches of water lift, whereas Airflow is measured in CFM (Cubic feet per minute. You would never hear of a cylinder vacuum suction measured in CFM. Its always measured in inches of water lift.

 

Sure there is a small amount of suction present in a Kirby floor head as the motor starts up, but when it's up to full speed it's all Airflow baby!

 




 




 


Post# 345502 , Reply# 85   2/26/2016 at 13:19 (2,953 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

O_o That hoover has a blocked filter

Trust me, I noticed this with my DC14 when I vacuumed up plaster dust, the suction was almost killed but the motor is powerful so was sucking hardcore through the filter, it wil sound loud but not enough for the air relief valve to blow. Some people think it still has suction but it doesn't.

I bought a DC33 Animal the other week, the guy said it still sucked but didn't pick up anything. The filter was blocked and the hose had crap suction, but still enough for the average person to think it still sucks


Post# 345504 , Reply# 86   2/26/2016 at 13:29 (2,953 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
I didn't say they were the same thing.
I said both motors create a drop in the ambient pressure which causes airflow.



Post# 345505 , Reply# 87   2/26/2016 at 13:39 (2,953 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
This pressure drop behind the fan is just like the pressure drop in a straw when you sip from your drink. The pressure level in the area behind the fan drops below the pressure level outside the vacuum cleaner (the ambient air pressure). This creates suction, a partial vacuum, inside the vacuum cleaner. The ambient air pushes itself into the vacuum cleaner through the intake port because the air pressure inside the vacuum cleaner is lower than the pressure outside.

Post# 345506 , Reply# 88   2/26/2016 at 13:41 (2,953 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Understand now Stanley?

Post# 345508 , Reply# 89   2/26/2016 at 14:07 (2,953 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
The fact is...

sptyks's profile picture

You can have a thousand inches of water lift, but if the diameter of the hose is too small like it is on all bagless vacuums, you will have much less air flowing through the vacuum which results in decreased ability to thoroughly clean plush carpets.


Post# 345512 , Reply# 90   2/26/2016 at 14:15 (2,953 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
This battle has been fought

Yes suction and air flow are linked, but as one increases the other decreases. A dead air flow, strong suction. High air flow, low suction. Linked. Optimized. 

Post# 317422 , Reply# 83   3/4/2015 at 12:13pm (359 days old) by sptyks (Woburn, MA) email sptyks       posts: 755 report offensive post to webmaster
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Suction vs Airflow

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Harley is absolutely correct when he explains the concept of Suction vs Airflow!

 

Here's another way to look at it: A Tornado is a whirl of wind. There is almost no suction involved, but a Tornado can pickup a house and carry it 100 yards with very little or no

suction.

 

Take a look at your average Dyson. There's lots of suction as measured in inches of water, but take out your Baird Meter and measure the Airflow and you'll find there's very little.

 

Now look at your Kirby or metal Royal and you'll see these numbers are reversed. There's very little suction, but the Baird meter is nearly pegged at "10". Now as the brushroll, spinning at 3900 RPM, brings the dirt to the surface of the carpet, all that Airflow picks up the dirt (just like a tornado) and carries it through the fancase and into the bag. And that's why Airflow is more important than suction.

 

 

 

 

Can we get back to Fairy wings now?



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Kirbysthebest's LINK

Post# 345513 , Reply# 91   2/26/2016 at 14:43 (2,953 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Tornados actually create a lot of suction. You shouldn't believe everything a sew n vac salesman tells you Stan.

The first thing that allows tornados to lift trucks, is that tornadoes generate a serious amount of updraft suction in their cores. This helps to pick things up and get things moving


Post# 345524 , Reply# 92   2/26/2016 at 16:16 (2,953 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
airflow/suction-- Tornado's,

are result of each other as Paul said.
Many vacuums are rated by water lift today. There is sealed suction, like a central vac system has, and open end suction. If a vacuum can not bypass air, it chokes it self. Allowing air to enter ahead of the vacuum chamber can improve air flow at times. Not always.
To show an example, the wider the nozzle opening, the more it can suck down to the carpet. Try it with a narrow one from a vintage cleaner, and then with a power nozzle not powered up, with the motor speed on high. The power nozzle will be harder to push.
Tornado's were French vacuums, yes? Then absorbed by AB Electrolux. I am sure they had as much power as Voltas, or Progress models of that era did.


Post# 345531 , Reply# 93   2/26/2016 at 16:53 (2,953 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
You ain't from Kansas Is ya?

A Tornado is a large vortices which emanates from usually a thunder system in which the air movement results in the funnel touching down and causing destructions.

 

True they have suction, but it begins with air movement, Air flow.  

 

Marcus is correct, Stan is correct. 

If you look at the demonstration on youtube where they stick an Aerus Platinum on the wall.  This is sealed suction.  Air is not moving.  When the air flow, the ability to move air is what also lifts the dirt from the carpet. 

 

Because I don't have time to type it again, please refer to the reading materials provided on the previous post, with a prior thread, with the same participants, on the same subject.

 


Post# 345536 , Reply# 94   2/26/2016 at 18:35 (2,952 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Harley,

No, not Kansas, but we've had them here. Actually, I meant the Brand Tornado, ,and thought we were discussing the power of it's motor.

Post# 345559 , Reply# 95   2/27/2016 at 06:28 (2,952 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Paul in Bristol,

Are you on you tube as U5096?

Post# 345562 , Reply# 96   2/27/2016 at 07:11 (2,952 days old) by Mike81 ()        
Airflow vs Suction

Everyone should see this. This is why I don't like the bagless vacuums.





Post# 345563 , Reply# 97   2/27/2016 at 07:23 (2,952 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
bagged vs. bagless

Mike, I had a large dog and wanted a machine that I could empty after each use so the hair and dander didn't grow bacteria and stink.
I bought an Electrolux Cyclone Power bagless cylinder re badged as a Sears Kenmore back in 2002. It had a Eureka Express type power head. The Eureka equivalent was called the Whirlwind.
I used it a week, every day because of the shedding. Once the bacteria manifested in the filters, it stunk, so I returned it.
I ended up with a bagged Z5900 series Smartvac, branded Oxygen here. Spraying Lysol on the hepa filter kept the odor in check.


Post# 345564 , Reply# 98   2/27/2016 at 07:32 (2,952 days old) by Mike81 ()        
bagged vs. bagless

Yeah I totally understand why you returned the Electrolux Cyclone Power bagless.
I have owned the Electrolux UltraOne (bagged) and UltraPerformer/Active (bagless).
Difference is that UltraOne with its simple airpath is much more powerfull and quieter also.





Post# 345569 , Reply# 99   2/27/2016 at 09:08 (2,952 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
"I had a large dog and wanted a machine that I could empty after each use so the hair and dander didn't grow bacteria and stink."

I have been down this route so many times with second hand bagged and bagless uprights. In the end I realised it wasn't the filters at fault but the hoses and dust channels that get clogged with oily pet hair deposits. Once those areas are cleaned out the older HEPA filters I kept over worked again.

Its not the filter or brand that can often be at fault but the simplest of things such as the hoses and dust channel air ways that require a good grouting out!


Post# 345588 , Reply# 100   2/27/2016 at 11:51 (2,952 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
I agree guy's,

but who has time to clean out hoses and wands?

Post# 345594 , Reply# 101   2/27/2016 at 12:06 (2,952 days old) by sensotronic (Englandshire)        
U5096

Paul, or Marcus as he is sometimes called, is not on Youtube. U5096 is a Policeman called Ryan.

I think that ibasiac bloke is called Roger. I met him once and he seemed really stuck up, but he loves his vacuums.


Post# 345599 , Reply# 102   2/27/2016 at 13:02 (2,952 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
I like your Sebos photo Roger but where is your G1?

Post# 345600 , Reply# 103   2/27/2016 at 13:06 (2,952 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
You only need to clean out hoses and wands periodically, Vacerator. These things take time to build up again. Of course if a manufacturer could come up with a seamlessly smooth interior it wouldn't take half as long to clean every coil. When I think about it, neither my Miele or SEBO hoses need to recoil, but I understand some ribs are required to protect the exterior of the hose and ribbed ones are probably cheaper to manufacture by now.

Post# 345601 , Reply# 104   2/27/2016 at 13:09 (2,952 days old) by sensotronic (Englandshire)        

That's an old photo Mar...Paul.

Post# 345602 , Reply# 105   2/27/2016 at 13:12 (2,952 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Oh it's time you updated it then :-)

Post# 345604 , Reply# 106   2/27/2016 at 13:57 (2,952 days old) by sensotronic (Englandshire)        

You should update your photo to show the real you.

Post# 345711 , Reply# 107   2/28/2016 at 15:43 (2,951 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
photo updates;

If I were 35, I would also. Not that I look bad for 56.
But I know what Tony Danza looks like now, so no.


Post# 345715 , Reply# 108   2/28/2016 at 16:08 (2,951 days old) by kenkart ()        
My two cents

When the Dysons first got popular, Jimmy Martin brought one to my house, I then had plush carpet, he vacuumed and vacuumed and got up a small amount of dust and dog hair, I hooked up my E series Rainbow and made 2 passes behind the Dyson and got up all sorts of sand grit and hair, My opinion then as now is that all the suction in the world is useless if not effectively applied, A Dyson to me is a tinkertoy with a big motor in it, I will keep on using my good vintage machines.A Hoover 150 or 63 will clean rings around one, with much less effort.

Post# 345723 , Reply# 109   2/28/2016 at 17:20 (2,951 days old) by Mike81 ()        

If someone posted this video already I apologise.
But this is how to test vacuums fairly.
This is not typical "who vacuums last wins".
He vacuumed with the first vacuum multiple passes and emptied it.
Then he vacuumed again with the same vacuum and only got tiny amount of stuff.
Then he vacuumed with the second vacuum and got a lot more stuff from the carpet.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike81's LINK


Post# 345724 , Reply# 110   2/28/2016 at 17:23 (2,951 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Seriously they just HAD to use that puny little Dyson DC50 when comparing it to a full sized machine? Not a fair comparison.

Post# 345725 , Reply# 111   2/28/2016 at 17:30 (2,950 days old) by Mike81 ()        

I was going to mention about it, but that's what I was also thinking. Dyson Cinetic Big Ball would have been better choice. My comment was about the testing methods.

Post# 345726 , Reply# 112   2/28/2016 at 17:43 (2,950 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Yes I totally agree :)

Post# 345729 , Reply# 113   2/28/2016 at 18:09 (2,950 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Here is an interesting test...

sptyks's profile picture

that was done several years ago. It may be somewhat out dated, but I think all the tests are still valid today. All of the tests were done with a Dyson DC14 and a Kirby G5, but I believe that if they were all repeated today between a Dyson DC65 or Cinetic and a Kirby Avalir, the results would be the same. There is a lot of reading here, but it is very interesting reading.

 

www.greatvacs.com/education/Kirby...


Post# 345732 , Reply# 114   2/28/2016 at 18:39 (2,950 days old) by Mike81 ()        
airflow

I knew that Kirby would have more airflow than Dyson, but so much! And top of all that with the hose!

Dyson = 1 out of 10
Kirby = 7 out of 10


Post# 345801 , Reply# 115   2/29/2016 at 15:04 (2,950 days old) by kenkart ()        
Re airflow

Just about any machine with a open fan design will have superior airflow, but not as much sealed suction, but really, its airflow that picks up dirt.Thats why the Apex StratoCleaner and Dual Delux Sunbeam clean so well, just one big fan.

Post# 345809 , Reply# 116   2/29/2016 at 16:10 (2,950 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
air flow vs suction cont.,

Air flow is like wind. Suction is more like inside of a vacuum. One can move dirt well. The other can suck it out from deep crevices, and fibers.
Filter Queen demonstrators put a sofa cushion in a sealed plastic bag and attach the hose to show how string suction can flatten the cushion.
Rainbow demonstrators use a white cloth between the upholstery tool and the hose to show how it can suck deep down carpet soil out.
So a power brush combined with a cylinder is the best, or an upright with also sealed suction.


Post# 345821 , Reply# 117   2/29/2016 at 17:32 (2,949 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

When cleaning carpets and rugs, a strong "direct air" machine such as a Kirby or Royal is unbeatable for removing the most dirt. Sealed suction is almost useless when removing dirt from a carpet. Remember "You have to move the air in order to move the dirt."


Post# 345826 , Reply# 118   2/29/2016 at 19:12 (2,949 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Vacuums can suck through carpets and here's proof airflow is needed to clean:

Put something in your hand, like a marble.

Grab a powerful Dyson for example. Take the hose off the powerful Dyson and put it on your hand with the marble on aswell. Now switch the Dyson on for a few secs then turn it off. The marble is still there. Why? Well even though there is powerful suction, there's no airflow so it's like a vacuum. If there was a slight gap between the hand and he hose there would be airflow for the marble to get sucked in. Carpets are porous and so a powerful vacuum can do well especially with a powerful brushroll


Post# 345838 , Reply# 119   2/29/2016 at 19:43 (2,949 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
marbles;

if I do that with my central vacuum which is sealed suction, the marble will not still be in my hand after only turning it on then off quickly. It will make it at least halfway through the hose.

Post# 345840 , Reply# 120   2/29/2016 at 19:44 (2,949 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
marbles;

if I do that with my central vacuum which is sealed suction, the marble will not still be in my hand after only turning it on then off quickly. It will make it at least halfway through the hose.

Post# 345844 , Reply# 121   2/29/2016 at 19:49 (2,949 days old) by daknx1994 (Southern Indiana)        

I always tell my customers that Dyson is the best bagless on the market. Remember the best bagless. The thing I have against Dyson is you are paying $400 and more for nothing more than a heap of plastic. There are no features other than being bagless that makes the Dyson stand out. There is absolutley no adjustable suction and the ball part is made of plastic that easily scratches bare floors. I have had numerous customers return Dyson's because of that factor alone. The other issue is that there is so much suction that Dyson's are hard to use on flat, non grouted hard floors because they seal to the floor and allow no air to flow through. They also do terrible picking up any thing bigger than a grain of sand. Now America does not get the models with the adjustable lip mind you. You can get a much more reliable and effective machine for the same price in the Miele/Simplicity line up. I do not like cleaning with full suction all of the time and I would like a machine with some metal built into it. It does not have to be all metal. I also am not a fan of plastic wheels/hubs that can cause damage to my hard flooring. My other biggest complaint is their canisters have NO power nozzle. Those Dyson turbine heads stall on the thicker frieze type of carpeting that is more popular today.

Post# 345868 , Reply# 122   3/1/2016 at 01:42 (2,949 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

I have never found a vacuum better for hard floors than my Dyson DC41 and DC14 & DC33. This includes straight suction cylinders. The Dyson just seems to have a miracle every time with it's large debris channel and and edge cleaning whiskers with suction channels on the sides and the soleplate overall is a good design which we take for granted.

he DC41 has an active base place which doesn't 100% seal the suction in bu has a slight gap between the surface for airflow and large debris only at the front. he back and sides are in 100% Direct contact with the surface


Post# 345869 , Reply# 123   3/1/2016 at 01:43 (2,949 days old) by Parwaz786 ( )        

Oh and PS IDK about America but we can get a brand new DC40 with 5 year guarantee from retailers for £179.99 a lot of the time

Post# 345876 , Reply# 124   3/1/2016 at 03:01 (2,949 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Airflow thru carpet-this will not work if the carpet has an airtight backing-some do,and if the WHOLE carpet is glued to the floor.So the nozzle needed for cleaning CANNOT be "sealed" to the carpet as those with the porus backing or not glued to the floor.For the sealed and glued down carpet the nozzle has to be adjusted so some air will flow thru-above the nozzle to move the dirt-and no hard beater bars-they will pound and wear the carpet and the vacuum!

Post# 345884 , Reply# 125   3/1/2016 at 05:11 (2,949 days old) by kenkart ()        
A plain old

Straight suction nozzle is better than anything for glued down carpet.

Post# 345892 , Reply# 126   3/1/2016 at 06:54 (2,949 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Parwaz,

Not here in the US. The exchange rate of a quid for our dollar added to inflated retail means prices for a Dyson begin at $399, and thats on sale.
It's the same with Miele, but they are not sold in department or discount stores.
Shark is the only affordable brand with excellent cleaning power and filtration for working class lower income households.


Post# 346039 , Reply# 127   3/2/2016 at 10:04 (2,948 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
What about TTI Dirt Devil? I thought they were a low budget brand like they've always been.

Post# 346116 , Reply# 128   3/3/2016 at 07:17 (2,947 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Sebo,

Dirt Devil does not sell a hepa sealed vacuum. Their price points are even lower than a high end Shark.
I saw the Shark Powered Rotator Lift Away infomercial this morning.
Mark Rosen filled the shark up with sand, and water lift tested it against an out of the box new, empty Dyson.
The Shark had a few more inches of water lift. The question is for how long?
He shut it off after five seconds.


Post# 346119 , Reply# 129   3/3/2016 at 08:18 (2,947 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
OH my you're under the impression that HEPA sealed is the way to go. Im not going to say anything more.

Post# 346138 , Reply# 130   3/3/2016 at 10:24 (2,947 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Sebo,

Are Sebos not sealed systems?

Post# 346246 , Reply# 131   3/4/2016 at 09:47 (2,946 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Yes they are sealed. And here is where I have to say more...

The HEPA filter cartridge that the Americans demanded for their X series vacs LEAKS dust.

This is why most European countries with SEBO vacs don't use the HEPA filters made for the X series. The K series for example has a HEPA style motor exhaust but the air that gets pumped out of that vacuum goes through an S-Class designed fabric filter.

The new E Airbelt series doesn't have ANY paper pleated HEPA filters nor does the D series canisters.

The Evolution/Mechanical upright that you got to get your hands on does possess a HEPA filter but that is only for the bag on top of it; the S-Class roll to the side filters the air that emits out of the machine.

The S-Class filtration system is a higher degree of filtered air but it is more expensive to manufacture/install than cheap paper pleats, which can impede suction and air flow dependent on the vacuum cleaner and its design. S-Class uses electrostatic material to trap dust particles in the air but lets the airflow be maintained.


Post# 346248 , Reply# 132   3/4/2016 at 09:51 (2,946 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)        
Sebo fan,

Yes, I agree with that. The hepa cell lock type bags are also better. Even a Sears Kenmore (Panasonic) progressive uses them, and at a $200 price.
My Oxygen, aka Electrolux Smartvac cylinder in the UK has the Goretex washable hepa filter.


Post# 349176 , Reply# 133   3/31/2016 at 13:07 (2,919 days old) by RootCyclone (East Midlands,UK.)        
Fantastic design's fall from grace...

I agree here. Dyson cleaners aren't as good as they used to be, and this a great shame in the vacuum cleaner world.

The biggest problem I have with the newer Dyson cleaners is the build quality - They just don't make them like they used to. I remember going hands on with a DC50 and I couldn't believe how much the handle flexed in my hand. Ok, flex isn't always a bad thing. Coming from an engineering perspective you can't have a handle that has no flex otherwise it would be brittle and eventually snap off. However, in the DC50 there's too much flex which makes me feel as if I'm going to un-intentionally bend the handle during normal use.

I found that the cut-off point for quality Dyson cleaners was in the late 2000s with the DC26 City. It felt really well made and could take a beating. Everything before the DC26 was great. I currently own three Dyson cleaners (a very early DC04 Absolute + from December 1998, a DC14 Animal from 2006, and a DC25 Animal from 2009) and I think they're great products. Most importantly however is the fact that they're well made. Though I must confess that the DC14 I have feels like a much better build than all of the Dyson cleaners I've ever owned.


It's such a shame that Dyson products have gone down in quality. I used to consider the Dyson brand as the best in vacuum cleaners, but since the downgrade in quality that's no longer the case (give me a Numatic any day). Whilst they may be simple machines they are actually built extremely well, and I value that.

A solid piece of design is considered, tested, and built really well...


Post# 349183 , Reply# 134   3/31/2016 at 14:27 (2,919 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)        
Rootcyclone

dys0nb0y's profile picture
Have you even tried any of the current generation, because the plastic is got so much better even better than the old once flexible but tough.

Post# 349189 , Reply# 135   3/31/2016 at 15:37 (2,919 days old) by RootCyclone (East Midlands,UK.)        

I have not been hands on with a new Dyson since 2014. They just don't interest me anymore. Machines from Sebo and Numatic seem better built in my view and more interesting. Such a shame the way Dyson has gone in recent years..


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