Thread Number: 28347  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Direct air motor vs Clean air motors 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 316597   2/24/2015 at 05:12 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

How much more dirt will a direct air cleaner pick up than a clean air motor as a percentage?

For example a Kirby Sentria compared to a Miele S7?

Would the difference be more than 5%?

Post# 316598 , Reply# 1   2/24/2015 at 05:31 (3,341 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
Nobody can actually answer this.

It depends on so many factors.

How long is a piece of string ?




Post# 316599 , Reply# 2   2/24/2015 at 05:39 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I do know that the CRI give Kirby a Gold award but they haven't tested Miele. Sebo get a Bronze award.

Would be interesting if anyone knows what the difference in percentage is?

Post# 316604 , Reply# 3   2/24/2015 at 07:42 (3,341 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
There are too many variables. You'll never be able to get a clear answer.



Post# 316605 , Reply# 4   2/24/2015 at 07:50 (3,341 days old) by jade_angel (Fort Collins, CO)        

There's really only one way to find out, and almost nobody does this:

Construct a standard test carpet sample, like for example a 2x2 meter square, mount it to a fixed backing, then make a few of them. Rub in a fixed mass of a fixed kind of dirt (say a 33/33/33 mix of walnut shell, cat hair and silt) in a consistent way, and then, using an empty vacuum with new filters, vacuum the carpet square in a fixed number of strokes in a fixed pattern and weigh how much each vacuum sucks out.

Even then, you might find that some clean-air machines outperform some dirty-air ones. I'd be *really* surprised to see an Oreck XL outclean a TOL Riccar canister, for example, but not surprised at all if a Royal or a Sanitaire did.

Also, if you did this with different dirt mixes, or on different kinds of carpet, the results would almost certainly vary.

Post# 316607 , Reply# 5   2/24/2015 at 08:05 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

That would be interesting to do Eric. If I had a Kirby handy I'd test it up against my clean air machines just to see what the difference would be.:-)

Of course there's variables but I'd like to do the test on my carpets just out of interest.

Post# 316612 , Reply# 6   2/24/2015 at 09:34 (3,341 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        

Check your local garage/yard sales, curbsides or thrift stores & pawn shops; U might find a Kirby there

Post# 316613 , Reply# 7   2/24/2015 at 09:39 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I do have a friend who has a Ultimate G I'll see if I can borrow it for a weekend.

Post# 316614 , Reply# 8   2/24/2015 at 09:45 (3,341 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
"...using an empty vacuum with new filters, vacuum the carpet square in a fixed number of strokes in a fixed pattern and weigh how much each vacuum sucks out...."

Yes, but make sure you clean the brush roll off first, otherwise whatever is on it before hand may be dislodged by the test material you are picking up, not to just mention that but also the dust channel, the dust hose channel and anything else inside the vacuum that will surely deter the transparency of the test given that sand or grit etc can dislodge existing dust and take it to the dust bag.

You'll never be able to prove anything unless you put two never used before brand new vacuums to the test.

Post# 316616 , Reply# 9   2/24/2015 at 10:05 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

It will not be 100% accurate of course but it will give a rough idea.

Post# 316617 , Reply# 10   2/24/2015 at 11:08 (3,341 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
It was a thought that came to me when I did the pick up tests showing SEBO Felix vs dirty fan Vax VCU02. The videos were created for those who argued that the Felix didn't agitate or whatever...

But I realised in time that even if someone takes a dirty vac and a clean vac and does a pick up test measuring whatever is left in the bag, it isn't exactly accurate judged on the state of the vacuums used. Fair if they are brand new - they won't "add" dirt to the bag other than what has been tested to pick up.

Post# 316618 , Reply# 11   2/24/2015 at 11:27 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I suppose you could let the cleaner run for a while to suck up any loose dirt inside the machine then clean the brushroll and fit a new bag.

Post# 316619 , Reply# 12   2/24/2015 at 11:29 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Difficult to home test

 But if you look at CRI, of the Gold level Uprights, most are either direct air or tandem air machines. Exception were the Riccar Vibrance/Simplicity Symmetry twins, Anyway, I was surprised to see several back pack straight suction machines in the Gold category. Guess they have enough suction to override the need for agitation.

Anyway, like I said would be difficult to duplicate at home with so many variables, but would be fun to try, of course, you wouldn't have the NASA-enhanced x-ray fluorescence technology, but you could use a simple kitchen scale with an in/out chart. Problem with residue left over, which is why they start with clean carpet to begin.


Post# 316620 , Reply# 13   2/24/2015 at 11:36 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Won't be as accurate as CRI but like you say would be fun to try and I live for having fun :-)

Post# 316621 , Reply# 14   2/24/2015 at 12:02 (3,341 days old) by kirbymodel2c (Nottingham, England)        
" I live for having fun "

 kirbymodel2c's profile picture

What other types of fun do you live for apart from playing with vacuums...? winklaughing

 

Jamessmile
Post# 316622 , Reply# 15   2/24/2015 at 12:03 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I wonder why the Royal Everlast doesn't get a CRI Gold Award?

From what I've seen of it, it's a beast of a cleaner. Possibly too aggressive for some.

Post# 316623 , Reply# 16   2/24/2015 at 12:04 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Haha I couldn't possibly reveal that on here James! :-p

Post# 316625 , Reply# 17   2/24/2015 at 12:40 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

DK why Royal Everlast is not Gold when there were two commercial metals in the top.
Maybe the Everlast had cramps the day of the competition and didn't compete well ;-}

It could also be the brushroll difference as there are two of the commercials in the silver level with the Everlast.

I wish they would show the actual score card for each machine as I am betting there is some variable there that caused the deviation.

Post# 316627 , Reply# 18   2/24/2015 at 12:43 (3,341 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
I wouldn't find it fun to see what vacuum rips my wool carpets to shreds; based on the £3000 paid to buy and install the carpets in the first place.

Whilst it is "fun" to see how much a vacuum picks up in a versus test, you also forget that it also depends on the condition/texture of the bristles on the brush bar. Aggressive will remove more than necessary in my experience compared to softer bristles.

Post# 316629 , Reply# 19   2/24/2015 at 12:45 (3,341 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Royal

 blackheart's profile picture
I'm going to guess filtration brings it down, same thing for sanitaire.

While not exactly scientific i've managed to get my hands on some hot pink sand. I do have a fairly plushy rug in the basement where my collection sits. to see how they compare to each other i've been pouring some sand then spreading and grinding it in with my shoes.

The best performers were the direct and tandem air machines both the kirby g6 and the riccar radiance had all visible debris up in 2 passes (2 forward and 2 back)
The lindhaus Healthcare pro took 3
the Simplicity 7 needs a new belt as i heard some squealing but it took 4 this will be re-done when i get a new belt.
The miele S7 freshair takes about 4 but there's almost always a little patch left after 4 passes, i have tried both the deep pile and low pile settings.
Oreck XL-21 3 passes
Oreck XL Ultra 9-10 passes

Post# 316630 , Reply# 20   2/24/2015 at 12:54 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

That's interesting.And you could be right about filtration but some of the Riccar don't have a HEPA filter I think some just have that foam thing but still get a gold. Could there be some favouritism going on?

And I agree Nar some cleaners will def wear your carpet prematurely


Post# 316631 , Reply# 21   2/24/2015 at 12:58 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Filteration is possible

 I do notice a difference in my Riccar Supralite between the Cloth-Hepa, and Paper bag. The machine seems to "breath" easier with the Hepa. My non-scientific method for this is you can feel the bag with the machine running. The Hepa bag you can depress very easily as the air is readily escaping, whereas the paper bag is firmer more balloon like with air not exiting as easily. This slowing of the air flow will effect the pick up abilities.

Like I said earlier, I would like to see a spec chart and test page for the machines. What brushroll, if there were stiffeners, bag type etc.

Post# 316632 , Reply# 22   2/24/2015 at 12:58 (3,341 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
That is true

 blackheart's profile picture
Some of them don't have hepa filters, but they do use the hepa bags.

Post# 316633 , Reply# 23   2/24/2015 at 13:04 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I think CRI should adopt a similar method as the EU test. Ratings from A to G for Carpet performance, Filtration, Energy and Noise that would give a clearer picture

Post# 316635 , Reply# 24   2/24/2015 at 13:16 (3,341 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Vacuum test

 sptyks's profile picture

Fact: only the Direct air Royal Everlast and the Tandem air Riccar vacuums can compete Head to Head with Kirby "G" series vacuums! There is not a Bypass air vacuum that can out clean a Kirby G series vacuum.

 

 

 
Post# 316637 , Reply# 25   2/24/2015 at 13:19 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I wasn't saying there was. Would just be interesting to see how much the difference is between a direct air such as a Kirby and the best clean air machines.

Post# 316638 , Reply# 26   2/24/2015 at 13:19 (3,341 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
sptyks that's a very broad statement. wheres your proof and fact finding references?



Post# 316639 , Reply# 27   2/24/2015 at 13:23 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

To be honest Stan is probably correct with his statement.

Post# 316640 , Reply# 28   2/24/2015 at 13:25 (3,341 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
why? what says? what tests?


Post# 316641 , Reply# 29   2/24/2015 at 13:25 (3,341 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Robert, I challenge you to prove me wrong.
Post# 316642 , Reply# 30   2/24/2015 at 13:28 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
I understand what Marcus was wanting to do

 He is not setting out to prove "Who's the best" he is just wanting to see how much difference there is between the two cleaner types.

Turbomaster, I don't think anyone is trying to start a Mine's bigger than your's war, but if you need scientific proof, the below link is what we are referencing.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Kirbysthebest's LINK
Post# 316643 , Reply# 31   2/24/2015 at 13:28 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I think it's a well known fact that a direct air motor will produce more airflow at the floorhead than a clean air motor but that doesn't mean I'd prefer a Kirby to a good clean air motor like a Miele or Sebo because I wouldn't :-)

But if I wanted the deepest clean I would choose a Kirby or Riccar Radiance.

Post# 316646 , Reply# 32   2/24/2015 at 13:33 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Don't count the tandem air machines out

 Though my First love is Kirby, Then Royal, the Riccar/Simplicity machines are pretty dern awesome. Though they differ in their agitation where the Kirby/Royals will form a seal or as Kirby calls it "Triple Cushion Vibration" pulling the dirt from the bottom, the Taconey Twins use three brush strips and beat the heck out of the carpet with good suction and airflow as well.



This post was last edited 02/24/2015 at 14:16
Post# 316647 , Reply# 33   2/24/2015 at 13:33 (3,341 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
Stan I challenged you first so come up with the goods instead of making more broad statements that you clearly cannot back up.



Post# 316648 , Reply# 34   2/24/2015 at 13:35 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

Turbo,
Again I said I didn't want to get in a show me yours contest, but since you made the challenge to Stan, I am going to assume that you have evidence to the contrary so please present it to the class to examine.


Post# 316649 , Reply# 35   2/24/2015 at 13:36 (3,341 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Marcus, If you can get your hands on a Kirby with a Dirtmeter, I can describe a very accurate vacuum test that you can use to test any vacuum against a Kirby or test any other 2 vacuums against each other, and you can do it at home.
Post# 316650 , Reply# 36   2/24/2015 at 13:37 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I've used a Riccar Brilliance and you're correct it is a fantastic machine in my opinion they match a Kirby and are more user friendly.

Post# 316652 , Reply# 37   2/24/2015 at 13:38 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Thanks Stan I'll let you know :-)

Post# 316653 , Reply# 38   2/24/2015 at 13:42 (3,341 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
So Stan and Kirbysthebest have used EVERY vacuum in the world EVER thus they know....... or they have read some report somewhere that shows this and proves it?

Until you have then one simply cannot say. Just like I cant say as Ive not sued EVERY vacuum made EVER.

Post# 316656 , Reply# 39   2/24/2015 at 13:50 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

Turbo.
Way off the point my friend. But since you asked, in my almost 60 years of pushing vacuum cleaners--yes, i probably have pushed just about everyone at one time or another. I have been in a home and seen women cry when I show them the pile of dirt, not a dirt pad, a pile of dirt I pulled from her "clean" carpet.

Generally the Direct Air machines, Kirby, Royal, Old school Hoovers, Sanitaire have been doing reliable, and decent jobs of cleaning for many years. The Clean air, or bypass machine didn't evolve until much more recently in vacuum history, they are not bad machines; and no one said they were. If I could get a Hoover Dial-a-Matic you would have to pry my dead fingers off of it. I would also love to get a Miele Upright and will have one someday as they are very impressive. that is not the point of this conversation.

But the purpose of this discussion was not to bash or trash anyone, it was just a general I wonder type of thought.

Lighten up--this was a fun discussion, not meant to be advisarily against some other brand or design.

BTW-I have never sued any vacuum, so you are one up on me there.



Post# 316657 , Reply# 40   2/24/2015 at 13:58 (3,341 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

turbomaster1984's profile picture
typo - used not sued.

You need to lighten up and realise Kirby isn't necessary the best given that theres been millions of different models produced all over the world over the past hundred years so theres no way you have used every one.

This is a forum and anyone can challenge broad statements like those made here today especially when they may not actually be true. Your 60 years experience should of taught you that.

Post# 316659 , Reply# 41   2/24/2015 at 14:07 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

If there is a cleaner that will clean deeper than a Kirby, Royal or Riccar Radiance I'd love to try it out. :-)

Post# 316660 , Reply# 42   2/24/2015 at 14:15 (3,341 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
I've been extremely busy

 Again I ask you to present evidence to the contrary. Since I did not make a broad statement--you did.

Do you know what "compete head to head" means? This means they are in the same class, doesn't mean they are better, worse or indifferent. There were only three not a Million brands named in this statement.

Funny thing about age, the now vintage machines we speak of; I actually got to use when they were new. Bummer.

My Mom had not one but two Corvairs, some on this forum probably don't even know what a Chevy Corvair is without Googling.

And I said Almost 60 years--don't rush me.




Post# 316664 , Reply# 43   2/24/2015 at 14:31 (3,341 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Here is a video of a 26 year old Kirby Legend cleaning up a big mess.

 

I'd like to see a bypass air that can beat this:

 

Post# 316665 , Reply# 44   2/24/2015 at 14:35 (3,341 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I recognise that carpet haha

Post# 316676 , Reply# 45   2/24/2015 at 16:06 (3,341 days old) by parwaz786 ( )        

Here's a torture test with my Dyson DC14.
I think it did pretty good for a clean air vacuum, but air am not saying its the best.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO parwaz786's LINK
Post# 316681 , Reply# 46   2/24/2015 at 16:28 (3,341 days old) by daknx1994 (Southern Indiana)        

After having used all three, I agree with Mark that Kirby, Royal, and Tacony Tandem Air Machines are some of the best deep cleaners out there. One thing that does help improve pick up is the type of bag that is used. I have began to use the hepa bags in my Kirby Ultimate G and I could tell a difference when I put the new bag on the unit. As soon as I turned it on the whoosh of air being sucked into the unit was greater than using the paper bags.

I think a good contender to these models that is a clean air is a Rainbow. I have both a D4 as well as an E2 Platinum. I dry clean my carpets and I use to use Capture, but was not happy with how it turned to a powder and I would have to use multiple bags while cleaning it up. When I got my platinum, I went over one half of the house that had been cleaned with Capture, and there a generous coating of Capture in the water basin of the rainbow and more heavier granules at the bottom of the water. And this was after going over the carpet with both a Hoover Elite and a Sanitaire with Vibra-Groomer and both having fresh new bags.

Post# 316690 , Reply# 47   2/24/2015 at 17:44 (3,341 days old) by jade_angel (Fort Collins, CO)        

The Legend 2 is hard to beat, yeah. Great machine, IMHO the best Kirby ever (well, I've never used an Avalir, but...). I can think of a few clean-air machines that could replicate what it did there easily enough - all the full-size Tacony canisters and their full-size clean-air uprights, for example - but it does require some of the better ones out there to play in the same league.


My own completely unscientific test is the carpet close to the cat pan. The kitties track litter onto it, so it's always full of grit, and due to kitty-proximity, also fur. My Simplicity 6970, Kirby Heritage II and Simplicity Verve can all get enough out that I don't hear any more rattling after two strokes. The Filter Queen with EBK360 and Simplicity Freedom take three, and the FQ with the original PN seems to take four. Totally unscientific, as I said. I'd like to try a cheap plastivac on that... My brother's got one that needs repairing (a Bissell with a stretched-out belt and a fan full of dust pack) - maybe I should repair it for him and test that. I bet it'll still be rattling after more than four strokes.

Post# 316699 , Reply# 48   2/24/2015 at 19:24 (3,341 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Oh dear god.

So, does everyone have the same kind of carpet worldwide?

Or are we just being fooled into believing that Kirby is indeed the best on ALL carpeted types?

End of the day, I agree with Rob (Turbomaster) AND of the points that I have raised.

To me, the tests of vacuum versus vacuum is never going to prove anything more than which one has a better brush roll or which one might have a better bag capacity.

No one has yet mentioned anything about different carpet textures - surely to god that has to be taken into consideration as well?

After all, with brand new carpet, there would be far much more light fibre taken off compared to an older piece of test carpet, where a fairer pick up would show far more transparent results, particularly if "deep down grit" was laid down for vacuums to pick up.

And when does it become apparent as to how many sweeps are required to pick up sand before the damage in the carpet actually sets in?

Post# 316701 , Reply# 49   2/24/2015 at 20:08 (3,341 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

Dereck

When I bought my house it has a very thick saxony plush in the living room, dining, and hall.  

 

I know the ladies I bought it from had a good vacuum, I saw it in the closet, a very well known brand.  The house was spotless, so I knew they cleaned well and regularly.

 

Well I began vacuuming and started pulling bags, I mean bags of this gray powder from the carpet.  There was so much that I actually took it to a carpet store and asked if the carpet were disintegrating or the padding turning to powder or something.

"No" the guy told me, "It looks like they cleaned the carpet with capture."  After I kid you not five bags of the stuff I started getting down to normal everyday dirt after that.    That stuff burries itself in the carpet.  

 

 

****

Hope this doesn't start another war from the contrary, I was only validating the remarks of another member. 

 

 
Post# 316703 , Reply# 50   2/24/2015 at 21:25 (3,341 days old) by daknx1994 (Southern Indiana)        

Harley I agree with you. I wanted to try something different and decided to try Capture since we sell it at work. I just was not happy with how it turned into a very fine powder almost like plaster dust. After I would clean with the Capture I would vacuum the carpet with a Hoover Elite, and then a shakeout bag Sanitaire. When I went over the same carpet with my Rainbow, I was truly upset with how much powder was STILL in the carpet. Long story short, I now use Host.

Nar, I see where you are coming from. All of our experiences for the most part are on our own carpeting so it is true that what might work for one will not completely work for another. I do agree that there are some vacuums that are not suitable for all carpets. The thing I do like about Sebo and Kirby is that they both offer soft, delicate brushrolls for the more expensive and delicate carpeting.

Post# 316708 , Reply# 51   2/24/2015 at 23:53 (3,341 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

Based on the Kirby salespitch, which cannot possibly be misleading or deceptive, if you vacuum with the customers old vacuum - half full bag or whatever, and follow with the Kirby - if you even pick up a spec of dirt missed by the first vacuum, the Kirby is superior.

Surely the same methodology can be used to test the Kirby. So first vacuum with the Kirby and follow up with a new Rainbow. (I mention Rainbow since I recently saw a Rainbow video on youtube picking up dirt clearly missed by a Kirby). Thus based on Kirby's own methodology, I would have to assume that the clean air Rainbow is superior. One can justify it by saying that the Rainbow doesn't clog like the Kirby and lose air flow as the bag fills.

Post# 316721 , Reply# 52   2/25/2015 at 08:14 (3,340 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

Furthermore, any test of supposed Kirby supremacy must be done with a bag. It must also be done with various dirt loads. Kirby's have big bags, and customers don't change the bag every time they use them. Some use the same bag for 3-6 months. It is a myth that tests must be done with an empty bag. The only requirement for a fair test is that each vacuum is similarly. For example, it is perfectly fair to compare a Kirby's performance with a nearly full (less than full line) to that of a Rainbow or Dyson, because that's how they are used in real life. Sure you can compare to a Kirby with an empty bag, but that's not "normal" use. In normal use, the Rainbow/Dyson start with no dirt.

So if you want to test a Kirby versus a Rainbow/Dyson, there's nothing wrong with sucking up say 10, 20, 32, 64, 96, or even 128 ounces of dirt in each prior to starting the test. You can then dump the Rainbow/Dyson because that's how they are used in practice. then run your test to see if the Kirby really is superior.

The Kirby's performance will degrade as the bag fills, so it must be tested at multiple dirt loads to measure real life performance. I think the Hoover Windtunnel has a pretty good record in testing against Kirby.

Post# 316735 , Reply# 53   2/25/2015 at 11:39 (3,340 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Ralphie/Jeff

 I do understand that your mission is to insult and ridicule other members on the board, and I just want to let you know you are doing a fine job.

I am typing this really slowly in hopes you will be able to keep up, but if you have problems maybe someone at the Independent Living Center can help you sound out the big words.

The Title of this thread is Direct Air Vs Clean Air.
Though the original poster did mention Kirby in his post, it was not to prove their superiority, in fact the OP is actually not a Kirby fan. Yes the two machines you mentioned Rainbow and Dyson are indeed what you would consider a clean air machine though one is actually a cannister.

If you want to conduct this non-scientific test and prove superiority here is what I would suggest for you to do.

1. Buy some new carpet, get enough yardage as to provide you new, clean pieces for each test.
2. Weigh the now cut to size and clean carpet.
3. Now place a predetermined amount of sand, ground nut shells etc as your test media
4. Now weigh the carpeting again with the test media
5. Mount this carpet to a board with padding underneath to better simulate real life.
6. Plug in the test machine
7. Make sure if the test machine is a bagged machine that it has a CLEAN bag installed properly and according to normal operating instructions.
8. Turn on the machine and adjust the machine to the carpet to be cleaned. Don't forget to engage the brushroll.
9. Make the number of passes you are going to use for each test and try to have the passes at the same rate and speed.
10. Turn off the machine.
11. Remove the test carpet from the mounting.
12. Weigh the carpet after the test.

Now here's the hard part because it will require numbers as well.
13. Subtract the ending weight from the beginning weight.
You now have approximately how much was removed from the carpet by a certain vacuum. The reason I approximate is there will be some degree of carpet fibers etc removed by hungry aggressive machines that live to destroy precious carpet fibers. This will not, however, have an effect on your test because you are going to mount a new piece of carpet for the next test and the new machine has an equal opportunity to eat the delicate carpet that more than likely should have only been cleaned by angel wings and fairy dust to begin with.

Now this test will not demonstrate "he who goes first loses" because there will only be one machine cleaning, that will be your test machine. You will only test the amount of dirt removed by weight by doing that pesky subtraction. If you want to do the percentages, well that is going to involve more of those number things so you can omit if you have too.


Repeat as many times an you feel the need.
Please report your results.

And I have found on this site that if you have a poster that just bugs you, then you can block them and you won't have to see their post any longer.
That is what I am doing now.







This post was last edited 02/25/2015 at 14:13
Post# 316737 , Reply# 54   2/25/2015 at 11:48 (3,340 days old) by marcusprit ()        

That it a good method Harley I might try that :-)

Post# 316835 , Reply# 55   2/26/2015 at 07:20 (3,339 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Its a handy list but you forget to add "Use a test machine that has never been used before."

My original thought still applies - you can test any 2 old/used vacuums together with fresh bags or 2 any old bagless uprights and fresh filters; but it is what inside it FIRST that can easily make the testing void when it comes to pick up.

Both vacuums have to be new, both vacuums have to be unused. I wonder how many videos online indicate true testing like this? More worringly, those who worry about it are going on a "sold as seen" campaign.

Post# 316837 , Reply# 56   2/26/2015 at 09:02 (3,339 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

I don't recall the exact amount of dust load, but I can remember Dyson advertising that after 10oz of dust (or whatever the amount was), that there was a significant drop in air flow for some competing bagged vacuums. Provided both vacuums are treated the same, there is no need to always test with empty bags. It certainly gives the bagged vacuums an advantage. Testing with empty bags provides information, but so does testing at various dirt loads. Put both test vacuums in canister mode and suck up 10 oz of dust and re-run the test. Also, provided both vacuums are tuned up and of similar age, the test can still be informative (but with increased variability). Many have argued that Consumer Reports should retest the machines after say 6 months of normal household use, and I agree with them.

Consider a vacuum like a Sebo with a geared belt. It's performance doesn't degrade as does a vacuum with a stretchable belt. Should the test reward the vacuum with the belt that stretches over time? If you are testing a vacuum that doesn't lose suction/airflow versus one that does, why is it only "fair" to test with an empty bag. The bagged vacuum may be superior for the first 8 oz of dirt, but the test doesn't tell you if the bagless is superior after that.


Post# 316850 , Reply# 57   2/26/2015 at 11:34 (3,339 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
If you test something that has clean bags, clean filter, clean bin, clean brush roll, everything clean - then surely you'll get fairer test findings.

Im not entirely sure why you are presenting the idea of the SEBO's geared belt driven brush roll compared to a vacuum with a stretchable belt though. Its performance can degrade, as can the brush roll fitted with a stretchable belt - i.e threads that get wrapped around the brush roll and anything that gets clogged on the brush roll surely weakens both belts - not to mention also crushing the bristles which can further impede pick up. The geared belt may not snap the first time around, but in time it will if its brush roll continually gets clogged or weakens the hold.

Post# 316859 , Reply# 58   2/26/2015 at 12:28 (3,339 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

You do bring up some very valid points. Most households, ok, no household puts a new bag in every time they vacuum, so the vacuum that is wonderful may not be so great as it fills up.

Depending on the vac, and the bag material I notice less drop off with the HEPA style fabric bags than I do the paper. Exception is the multi-layered filterete bags, also the Envirocare bags tend to keep going with little noticeable drop in performance. A great deal of what I clean up is pet hair which tends to not clog the bag too much anyway, much less than fine powder.

Now I don't change bags every time I vacuum, but I do change well before they reach the full mark, and always before the change bag indicator comes on so I have never personally used a full bag.

Post# 316965 , Reply# 59   2/27/2015 at 15:40 (3,338 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

I think the only reason, if any, why a direct air will pick up more is because the static pressure is greater than a bypass at the nozzle. Sounds obvious, but I can't explain why that should be the case. Think about it - each has to pass air through bags so the net result should be the same since the direct air will be up against the rest of the hose/duct work, thus it really shouldn't matter where the motor is.

In any case, I don't think the small, if any advantage of a direct cleaner outweighs the fact that I can pick up paper clips or small metal debris left behind and not worry about it messing up the impeller fan. I'd never use a direct air vacuum to suck up all the salt and sand that comes during winter.

Post# 316988 , Reply# 60   2/27/2015 at 21:41 (3,338 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Sprockkets: I guess you never heard that it is a fact that the greater the distance the fan is from the carpet, the more airflow and suction you loose. 

 

Look at the Direct Air Royal, Kirby and the older Hoover Convertibles. Their performance is excellent and they only need a 350 to 500 watt motor to do it. Why? Because the motor and fan is only 3 to 4 inches from the carpet where airflow is at maximum.

 

Now take a look at your typical Bypass air machine. The motor and fan is 3 to 4 feet of internal piping and external hose from the carpet, therefore airflow is greatly reduced. And we all know that it is Airflow, Agitation and Suction (in that order) that cleans carpet the best.This is why most Bypass sair vacuums need a 1000 - 1440 watt motor, and the performance is still less than a Direct Air machine will provide. 

 

Check out the link below for a better explanation:  

 

CLICK HERE TO GO TO sptyks's LINK
Post# 317127 , Reply# 61   3/1/2015 at 13:26 (3,336 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

And a direct vacuum still has all that piping as well to deal with on the other end. It's the same problem, as that motor has to fight that resistance as well.

The best way to mitigate that is what sebo did, which is keep right angle turns to a minimum to none, keep the bends at nice angles and use top fill bags instead of feeding it from the back at the top shooting and clogging with dirt at the top.

As far as your energy or watts argument, that's due to marketing departments. A sebo from sometime ago used only 850 watts, and only increased it due to customers thinking it made a difference. And now they are going back to it thanks to the EU. I'd wager the extra watts overcome the extra filtration direct vacuums lack. And olive here already showed that 700w vs 1000w motor in the Felix worked just as well with much less wasted energy as heat.

Third, that link you shared proves nothing. That Eureka machine is a great example of a crappy vacuum. Having the suction on the right isn't a bypass feature by any means, as Sebo has the inlet more toward to the middle and not on one side. And we all know how poorly a dyson agitates for sure with such a weak dinky roller. And I also have an older Hoover direct air and Oreck XL that clean much less than my bypass vacs. And another benefit to not having such an agressive agitation is you aren't destroying your carpet. Far more important is proper height adjustment which those old vacs have and most don't.

Now I'm not going to say that Royal or Kirby vacuum sucks either, cause it doesn't. But let's also not forget the only sane way of buying a Kirby is second hand, because I'm not going to pay thousands for such a archaic vacuum through a annoying salesman.

Post# 317129 , Reply# 62   3/1/2015 at 13:36 (3,336 days old) by marcusprit ()        

How poorly Dyson agitates? You need to watch this video I think it will change your mind. :-)

CLICK HERE TO GO TO marcusprit's LINK
Post# 317133 , Reply# 63   3/1/2015 at 14:06 (3,336 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

They've gotten a little better. But that one in the video posted earlier is what my dad has, and it barely has any bristles to it. At least it came off easily to clear a clog on it from having such a small inlet :P

Problem I see with that one is what happens when the floor head floats on the carpet.

Post# 317134 , Reply# 64   3/1/2015 at 14:11 (3,336 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Well I have that Dyson and I can tell you it does a fantastic job I'm very impressed with it. And I've owned some very good uprights including Miele S7 , Sebo Felix and Kirby Diamond. :-)

Post# 317206 , Reply# 65   3/2/2015 at 08:38 (3,335 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

I've read the rather lively debates marcus :)

I try to not be a dyson hater, but I can't let their 20 years of "Never loses suction" just go by while they now say, "No, really, we mean it *this* time!" They don't really mention that their older non cinetic designs fall into that category. They are really the apple of vacuums.

Since I have to use vacuums for work, I'm now biased to any vacuum that is well built for the job.

@sptyks if I could reword my post, I should add, you are right, but possibly for more than just the direct air part :)

Post# 317207 , Reply# 66   3/2/2015 at 08:56 (3,335 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Haha hope you enjoyed them Joe :-) So what cleaner do you use at work?

Post# 317210 , Reply# 67   3/2/2015 at 09:29 (3,335 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Right now? A Hoover Windtunnel Air. It's only had two bottom plates, one motor, one repair to the floor brush sensor replaced. :)

I'm not trying to knock it either cause it wasn't meant for abuse. Otherwise I use a Riccar for work. Better built but still wish it was the commerical model.

Since I found out about Sebo/Windsor sometime ago I'm trying to get one myself, if that Felix ever arrives :) Otherwise I've used a few at my church who bought an Axcess and the dual motor Windsor.

Post# 317211 , Reply# 68   3/2/2015 at 09:35 (3,335 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I've tried out a Riccar Brilliance and was VERY impressed with it. Sadly we don't have them over here.

I love my Felix and have been considering an X4 or G1. I think for bagged uprights Sebo is the best you can get in Europe. I would like to see a new domestic upright though I think it's overdue :-)

Post# 317219 , Reply# 69   3/2/2015 at 11:12 (3,335 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Sprockkets: You are dead wrong when it comes to your opinion that Direct Air vacuums and Bypass Air vacuums have the same amount of airflow no matter how far the fan is from the carpet. A Direct Air Vacuum has at least 5 times more airflow than a Bypass Air machine and I have proven it with my own Baird Airflow meter:

 

If I remove the floor nozzle from my Kirby Sentria and connect the Baird meter directly to the fancase opening where the meter is only 1 inch from the fan, the airflow pegs the meter at a "10".  Now if I remove the Baird meter and attach the 6 foot hose instead and then attach the Baird Meter to the end of the hose, I get a reading of m"7" on the meter.

 

Now if I disconnect the hose from the floor head of my Hoover WindTunnel Air, and attach the Baird meter to the end of that hose I get a reading of "2" on the Baird meter. Now how do you explain that?

 

Click the link to read an article published by "Goodvacs" performing airflow testing on a Kirby and a Dyson using the Baird meter:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO sptyks's LINK on eBay

Post# 317221 , Reply# 70   3/2/2015 at 11:16 (3,335 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I know what I'd like to do with your Baird Meter! Haha

Post# 317224 , Reply# 71   3/2/2015 at 11:37 (3,335 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Marcus, I bet you want to smash it to smitherines.

 
Post# 317225 , Reply# 72   3/2/2015 at 11:40 (3,335 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
MARCUS

 Five minutes on the Naughty Step.

We do not smash other people's property.


Post# 317226 , Reply# 73   3/2/2015 at 11:41 (3,335 days old) by marcusprit ()        

No I was thinking of sticking it where the sun don't shine :-p

Post# 317227 , Reply# 74   3/2/2015 at 11:42 (3,335 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Well Then

 10 Minutes on the Naughty Step.



Post# 317228 , Reply# 75   3/2/2015 at 11:44 (3,335 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Hahahaha :-)))

Post# 317285 , Reply# 76   3/2/2015 at 20:21 (3,335 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

@sptyks

You've linked me to a site with no pictures showing up.

"You are dead wrong when it comes to your opinion that Direct Air vacuums and Bypass Air vacuums have the same amount of airflow no matter how far the fan is from the carpet. A Direct Air Vacuum has at least 5 times more airflow than a Bypass Air machine and I have proven it with my own Baird Airflow meter."

A baird airflow meter is an arbitrary form of measurement. I have tools that can measure proper suction in inches of water column or CFM.

But you still are concluding you are right on a very small set of vacuums.

"If I remove the floor nozzle from my Kirby Sentria and connect the Baird meter directly to the fancase opening where the meter is only 1 inch from the fan, the airflow pegs the meter at a "10". Now if I remove the Baird meter and attach the 6 foot hose instead and then attach the Baird Meter to the end of the hose, I get a reading of m"7" on the meter."

Which means still nothing because we aren't really measuring anything in proper measurements. Is that 30% less airflow? Or did only the static pressure change? Does it actually affect performance?

I'm very well aware of what happens when adding any form of restrictions that air flow will go down, seeing how I do HVAC stuff. That still doesn't prove that is the sole reason why a Kirby is better.

"Now if I disconnect the hose from the floor head of my Hoover WindTunnel Air, and attach the Baird meter to the end of that hose I get a reading of "2" on the Baird meter. Now how do you explain that?"

A Windtunnel Air doesn't have great suction to begin with seeing how it has to pass air through a cyclone setup, has two right angle bends in the ductwork, a pre filter, a crappy chinese motor with small openings for air exhaust, a foam filter surrounding the motor including the exhaust, a black material to prevent you from seeing the motor on the holes, to a final filter. How do I know that? I took one apart when the motor went.

Again, the reasons why a Kirby has such great air flow isn't exclusive to them or only possible via direct air. And for me, the advantage of having a quick easy to use hose immediately outweighs any benefits a kirby has.

Heck, an Atrix Mighty mouth has the intake, direct to a bag, then the fan. No hoses here. That's almost as direct as you can get without worrying about the motor fan processing bolts and screws, which is what that vacuum is designed to suck up.

Post# 317358 , Reply# 77   3/3/2015 at 17:41 (3,334 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Sprockkets, I'm afraid that you are still wrong. It seems you are confused and believe that suction and airflow are the same thing. They are not. In order to clean carpet really well you need 3 things:

                                 (1) Airflow

                                 (2) Agitation

                                 (3) Suction

 

In that exact order! If you had a bypass air vacuum that could pull 100 inches of water but can pull only a 3 on the Baird meter, it has poor airflow, and it will not clean nearly as well as a Direct Air vacuum. The Baird meter measures Airflow and that is what's most important.

 

This video shows the Royal all metal Direct Air vacuum vs three expensive bypass air vacs.  Airflow wins all 3 battles here:

 

 




 
Post# 317363 , Reply# 78   3/3/2015 at 19:11 (3,334 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
My Horsey died so I promised to quit beating it

But I still have a couple of whacks left in me. 

 

Don't forget also that the design of the nozzle contributes to the effectiveness of the direct air uprights.  

 

Two that are referenced previously are the Royal and Kirby.  Both use a bell shaped nozzle that employs the Bernoulii principle where the speed of the air is multiplied from nozzle to fan, so to measure at the fan case is defeating part of the design.  This is where your suction portion of the airflow equation comes in. 

 

Poor horsey.  Whack!! Whack!!!
Post# 317383 , Reply# 79   3/4/2015 at 00:54 (3,334 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Suction and airflow are linked together. Without suction theres no airflow.

Post# 317402 , Reply# 80   3/4/2015 at 07:18 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Without suction theres no airflow

 You can have dead suction, such as picking up the bowling ball trick, and still have no airflow; which would not move anything because the suction is dead.

You can also have airflow, like a dryer, where it moves 180 CFM, but it is mass air flow very little suction because the air is being replaced as quickly as it is being removed. The air flow carries out the damp warm air in a dryer, as is the air flow that moves the dirt off the carpet and into the capture system.

In a suction cleaner the previously mentioned bell shaped nozzle multiplies the airflow where there is more air being exhausted than is entering this creates the suction that works together with the airflow to do the cleaning.

Though I am not a physicist there was someone that posted the formula one time where as air flow increases the suction decreases, and vis versa.

This is where the principle of the tandem air machines come in where as one motor is creating the airflow close to the carpet the clean air motor is removing the back pressure and supplying the hose suction when needed. They work together in tandem.




Post# 317403 , Reply# 81   3/4/2015 at 07:54 (3,333 days old) by Hoover78 (dallas tx)        
Matter of prefrrenve

 Omg you guys are just soooo anal about all this. No one has a friggin beach of sand in there carpets. Direct air or bypass clean air is a matter of preference IMO. U find what suits your needs. I myself have a plain ol kenmore progressive upright vacuum and I find it cleans well for me. I like the conviniece of the on board tools and hose. The agitation is good. I get to use hepa bags so it maintains that strong suction and airflow as the bag fills. Manual height adjustments are another plus. So I feel all this debating and vids back and forth is nonsense. U find what works for u and stick with it. Everyone will have their own opinion of a "good cleaner".. No one will ever be 100% satisfied.

Post# 317404 , Reply# 82   3/4/2015 at 07:58 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

But it is the fan on the motor that causes a drop in ambient pressure which produces suction which produces airflow. Suction and airflow are linked :-)

I'm no physicist either haha

Post# 317405 , Reply# 83   3/4/2015 at 07:59 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
I can not speak for to others

 But I was not trying to sell anything or change anyone's preference. We were having a discussion about the different types of machines. There was science, and math and other stuff like that involved.

You are correct, use what you like and it will be the best.

Post# 317406 , Reply# 84   3/4/2015 at 08:01 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

Yes suction and air flow are linked, but as one increases the other decreases. A dead air flow, strong suction. High air flow, low suction. Linked. Optimized.

Post# 317407 , Reply# 85   3/4/2015 at 08:02 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

This post has been removed by the webmaster.

Post# 317408 , Reply# 86   3/4/2015 at 08:03 (3,333 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Are you sure?

Post# 317410 , Reply# 87   3/4/2015 at 08:09 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Positive! Though I might be in a minority on here. Haha :-p

Post# 317412 , Reply# 88   3/4/2015 at 08:40 (3,333 days old) by Hoover78 (dallas tx)        

This post has been removed by the webmaster.

Post# 317413 , Reply# 89   3/4/2015 at 08:55 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

This post has been removed by the webmaster.

Post# 317415 , Reply# 90   3/4/2015 at 09:39 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Drifting, Drifting

 Thread is drifting.

Back to air flow.

And BTW, you can have a beach of sand in your carpet. A carpet can hold ond and one half times it's own weight in dirt and still look clean to the naked eye.


Post# 317422 , Reply# 91   3/4/2015 at 12:13 (3,333 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        
Suction vs Airflow

 sptyks's profile picture

Harley is absolutely correct when he explains the concept of Suction vs Airflow!

 

Here's another way to look at it: A Tornado is a whirl of wind. There is almost no suction involved, but a Tornado can pickup a house and carry it 100 yards with very little or no

suction.

 

Take a look at your average Dyson. There's lots of suction as measured in inches of water, but take out your Baird Meter and measure the Airflow and you'll find there's very little.

 

Now look at your Kirby or metal Royal and you'll see these numbers are reversed. There's very little suction, but the Baird meter is nearly pegged at "10". Now as the brushroll, spinning at 3900 RPM, brings the dirt to the surface of the carpet, all that Airflow picks up the dirt (just like a tornado) and carries it through the fancase and into the bag. And that's why Airflow is more important than suction.

 
Post# 317424 , Reply# 92   3/4/2015 at 12:26 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

So where does the airflow come from Stan? It comes from the fan creating low pressure which produces suction without suction there will be no airflow! So they are both tied together one is not more important than the other.

Post# 317426 , Reply# 93   3/4/2015 at 13:58 (3,333 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Marcus, I want you to understand this concept, so please read slowly what Harley wrote here: 

"You can also have airflow, like a dryer, where it moves 180 CFM, but it is mass air flow very little suction because the air is being replaced as quickly as it is being removed. The air flow carries out the damp warm air in a dryer, as is the air flow that moves the dirt off the carpet and into the capture system." 

 

Another way to look at it is when you first turn on a Kirby, and the fan starts to spin up, there is a brief moment of suction that starts the air moving through the machine. Once the Airflow reaches full speed, the suction drops off to a small amount because the air inside the floor nozzle is being replaced as quickly as it is removed. Once air is constantly moving at full speed, there is no more need for lots of suction. The reason why the Kirby and Royal have so much airflow is because the opening to the fancase is a full 2 inches in diameter compared to Dyson and similar machines which is between an inch and an inch and a quarter. The Bell Shaped nozzle amplifies the airflow as well. Read the posts above, there is a scientific formula that proves this.

 

 
Post# 317427 , Reply# 94   3/4/2015 at 14:01 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

That may be true but you still need the suction to get the air flowing :-)

Post# 317428 , Reply# 95   3/4/2015 at 14:08 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Air Watts = Vacuum suction (inches of water) x Air Flow (cubic feet per minute)/8.5Air Flow (CFM) = √13.35 X D2/Vacuum suction

Post# 317430 , Reply# 96   3/4/2015 at 14:14 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
but you can have suction without air flow

 A dead suction, such as the demo where they stick an electrolux to the wall. There is no air flow.

When David Oreck picks up a bowling ball with his hand portable--no air flow.

A water pump is a good example: though I know it is not pumping water, it is moving fluid. Which air is a gaseous fluid. The pumps impeller creates a vacuum, whereas the ambient air pushes the fluid water up the pick up pipe, through the pump and out to the output. A water pump is limited to how much "vacuum" or suction it has due to the atmospheric pressure is what "pushes" the water up from the well when the pump creates the suction. Because it is limited to the atmospheric pressure wells deeper than 25ft, are not considered a shallow well and requires a different type of pump or submerged pump.

A submerged pump can be lowered into the well where it is closest to the water level and now you can go 200, 300, 400 ft or more and not be dependent on the atmospheric pressure, because the pump itself is "pushing" the water up the pipe to the surface.

I would equate the Submerged pump to a direct air machine where the business end is very close to the area of work, and the exhaust is pushed after that. This is why it doesn't have to "Suck" that hard, only move the air.

A Surface, or shallow well pump is very similar to a clean air machine as it has to suck the water through a tube, dependent on the atmosphere to push and there is only so much atmosphere, but then a short distance to exit.

All the pump has to do is displace the water and the atmosphere pushes additional water in it's place. This is the same with a suction cleaner. The spinning fan displaces air and since nature abhors a vacuum the atmosphere quickly replaces the air with more so a larger fan with a somewhat restricted intake will create a greater suction due to our good friend Bernoulli, but if you shut off the air flow the suction is only that of the displaced air and the atmosphere around it.

Now if you were to leave your water pump running and shut off the water valve, the pump would still be trying to displace the water, but with no where to go it would only cavitate within the chamber, but nothing would move no flow, no vacuum.

So in close, yes you are correct they are dependent on one another, but as indicated as flow increases suction drops as nature only allows so much atmosphere. As we restrict the airflow as through an old fashioned carburetor air horn vacuum increases, but air flow decreases.






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This post was last edited 03/04/2015 at 14:43
Post# 317431 , Reply# 97   3/4/2015 at 14:21 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

I agree with you. I read that very slowly :-)

Post# 317432 , Reply# 98   3/4/2015 at 14:27 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Marcus

 This has been a good discussion, thank you for posing the question.

Post# 317433 , Reply# 99   3/4/2015 at 14:32 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Well thank you Harley I've enjoyed it too. Very interesting :-)

Post# 317434 , Reply# 100   3/4/2015 at 14:39 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

It's amazing what you can remember from 9th grade Physical Science class. I remember the whole Water well/pump atmospheric pressure chapter. Didn't care for Mr. Schoonover who taught it that much, but that's a different story.

Post# 317435 , Reply# 101   3/4/2015 at 14:43 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Haha our chemistry teacher had a nervous breakdown cause of us. Oh dear. I was so immature back then. Hard to believe isn't it :-)

Post# 317436 , Reply# 102   3/4/2015 at 14:50 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Think about it.

 You kind of have to have a nut loose to walk into a classroom full of adolescents and turn your back on them.

Post# 317437 , Reply# 103   3/4/2015 at 14:55 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Especially in a chemistry class with Bunsen burners and the elements to make explosives haha :-)

Post# 317438 , Reply# 104   3/4/2015 at 15:03 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

Only minor explosions though I wasn't Guy Fawkes :-) Americans may need to google that.

Post# 317446 , Reply# 105   3/4/2015 at 16:47 (3,333 days old) by kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Using the water pump example

If you were to have a deep well pump that lifted the water, and then a shallow well pump to relieve the back pressure by moving the water away so the deep well didn't have to work so hard they would work in tandem, much like the tandem air machines.  

 

 

 

 
Post# 317468 , Reply# 106   3/4/2015 at 22:34 (3,333 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Sigh...here we go again...


"Sprockkets, I'm afraid that you are still wrong. It seems you are confused and believe that suction and airflow are the same thing. They are not. In order to clean carpet really well you need 3 things:"

Seeing how I clearly explained what "suction" is and how it is properly measured, via inches of water column, and air flow, in CFM, and when combined with ductwork measurements give true CFM in my HVAC work, yeah, I think I clearly understand it, probably better than you do.

Depending on the a/c system, adding a filter does one of two things. One, on a PSC motor setup, will cause more resistance, cause less air flow, drop static pressure, then lower fan amps. Two, on a true ECM motor, will cause again, a resistance, the motor senses this and increases fan speed to compensate, increased fan amps, and increased staic pressure, until it hits 1 inch of water column.

"The Baird meter measures Airflow and that is what's most important."

No it doesn't! It's so ridiculous that you can't see that. From what you've shown me it is a simple diaphram on a spring. It's pretty much is a pressure tester with an arbitrary measurements that will only apply to itself. The more suction generated moves the diaphram which in turns translates into CFM, but the scale is aribtrary and only useful when comparing another machine. Unless you have more info on it, it can't tell you what the real CFM is anyway!

Here, let's explain this even further.

In electricity, Voltage is pressure or suction, depending on how you look at it.
Current would be the airflow or CFM.

In water flow, pressure is well, obvious. GPM would be airflow.

In certain applications, you need high voltage but low current. Stuff like flourescent lights do this. In weilding, you need high current but low voltage.

You essentially are saying that airflow is all that matters, but obviously that isn't true. You can have all the air flow you want, but any form of resistance to it, with that vacuum bag, that nozzle on the carpet, or any other forms of it, require overcoming with pressure.

Just by looking at the fans in the Royal, Kirby or most any direct air vacuum, and they are geared for airflow due to their sheer size. The small fans in bypass vacuums are geared to high pressure due to the amount of resistance they have to overcome.

BOTTOM LINE: YOU CAN'T GENERALIZE. Just because it is bypass or direct air means nothing. There are examples of both that can suck badly at what they do.

Oh and btw, try getting your kirby or royal head underneath anything like this! I'll take a Felix over any vacuum any day for this office I clean!

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Post# 317471 , Reply# 107   3/5/2015 at 00:47 (3,333 days old) by marcusprit ()        

If you are looking for the most airflow and the deepest clean you would go for a Kirby, if you don't need the deepest clean but want a more user friendly cleaner that still cleans very well, deep enough for most, go for a Sebo.

Post# 317496 , Reply# 108   3/5/2015 at 11:26 (3,332 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Sprockkets:  I agree that as airflow decreases, suction increases and vise versa. BUT, I also believe that Airflow and agitation are the two most important ingredients needed for a good deep clean. Bag and nozzle resistance does increase suction a little bit on a Direct Air vacuum, but the amount of airflow through the nozzle along with a well designed brushroll cleans carpet the best.

 

Marcus:  For once I fully agree with your statement on Kirby vs Sebo. Actually, after all I've read on this Forum about the Sebo Felix, it sounds like a fantastic machine and I would love to try one out sometime, but they are horribly expensive here in the U.S. The only thing that would bother me about the Felix is the small but expensive bags.

 

 

 

 
Post# 317499 , Reply# 109   3/5/2015 at 11:45 (3,332 days old) by marcusprit ()        

You agree with me?Am I dreaming? :-)

The Felix in the UK you can pick up for around £200 and the bags work out about a pound each. But they are a lot more expensive over there sadly, not as expensive as Miele though. But you do see used ones on EBay. You see more X4`s over here.
You could probably pick up a used X4 for £100. I've seen models just a year or 2 old for that price.

Post# 317512 , Reply# 110   3/5/2015 at 14:32 (3,332 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
The U.S has commercial versions of the Felix, but they're not as versatile in my experience. They have fixed suction, non-brush roll on/off button and no 3 point neck height adjustment for the handle.

Not only sold under Windsor Axxcess, but also the previous "Flexamatic" label and Dr Schutz with the Dart re-labelled "Carpetwise." Karcher U.S ALSO sells a commercial version of the Sebo Felix.

Generally I find a box of Felix bags lasts me a year and a half to 2 years before a new box is required. You get 8 bags in a box which is double the quantity you get with Miele. SEBO don't use litres or quarts as a way of understanding longevity per bag; it really depends on what your home has in terms of the amount of dust. At the very least, a SEBO Felix dust bag in my experience lasts 2.5 months before requiring to be changed, which puts it on a par with Miele's FJM dust bags.

Some bags my old Felix has had has gone on for 4 months!

Post# 317514 , Reply# 111   3/5/2015 at 14:38 (3,332 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

@sptyks Yes that is true. Or another way of thinking is there is a lot of potential with high suction, but without a clear path for it to go, air flow suffers.

Again, only gripe with Kirby is their network of salesman to sell the device. One quick story was my friend who will never let her kirby go, got a call from them a year or so later after buying hers getting her to upgrade. Then she turned their own words against them saying you told me this would be the last vacuum I'd ever buy! That shut them up :)

I'd say the best price for a felix is $400 (OTOH Dyson charges more for his stuff but the build quality isn't up to sebo's standards), and why it costs more here in the US is beyond me. Heck, my congregation has a special agreement with Windsor and got the Axcess for $220 new. Otherwise I've seen it for $450 or so new, but you don't get the parquet brush or the adjustable handle and the power head can't be switched off.

So I guess that is why a lot of you have multiple vacuums for different days huh :)


Post# 317528 , Reply# 112   3/5/2015 at 15:46 (3,332 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)        
Dyson charges more but is build quality isn't up to seb

 dys0nb0y's profile picture

That's not true at all Dysons got the same build quality maybe even better can't confirm as I don't own one. is just more flexible so it can accept more force without snapping. If you don't even own one can you not comment on something if you don't own because that's how arguments are started. :)
Post# 317539 , Reply# 113   3/5/2015 at 17:18 (3,332 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Nope, I don't own one. Just used several and while yes, they use tough plastic, everything else is lacking.

It really isn't a jab against them as they aren't made for commercial use. They have so many bells and whistles on them that there are so many points of failure. I've seen one though be used in a restaurant, but that's it.

It is also hard to generalize with them too, as in the past they used cheap chinese motors, or ones by panasonic which should be better, to now their in house brushless motors on some of their stuff.

Post# 317542 , Reply# 114   3/5/2015 at 17:29 (3,332 days old) by Hoover78 (dallas tx)        
So? What's the verdict?

 Bypass or direct air vacuum?

Post# 317545 , Reply# 115   3/5/2015 at 17:45 (3,332 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)        

dys0nb0y's profile picture
i agree with you but only on the older models as in the last few years dyson has come a long way they have improved in every way I really don't like the older models.but if you don't own one of the new one can't really comment on them.

Post# 317546 , Reply# 116   3/5/2015 at 18:02 (3,332 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

I guess if a box of Felix bags lasts more than a year that's not so bad. There is a Sebo dealer about 20 miles from me, but he sells the Felix for around $600.00 which is too rich for my blood.

 

I bought all my Kirby's on ebay for between $50 and $190 except my G3 which I found in the trash. It cost me about $60 for the parts to get it running like new.

 

I have no desire to own a Dyson, mainly because it's bagless and I don't care for bagless machines. The exception being a Hoover WindTunnel Air that I got cheap. It's great for quick pickups and vacuuming out the shakeout bag of my vintage D50. I empty the Hoover in the trash bin in the laundry room of my apartment building so the dust cloud doesn't come near my very clean apartment.

 
Post# 317548 , Reply# 117   3/5/2015 at 18:09 (3,332 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)        

dys0nb0y's profile picture
bagless isn't everyone's cup of tea ;)

Post# 317552 , Reply# 118   3/5/2015 at 18:24 (3,332 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        
Andy

It was a discussion.  Draw your own conclusions. 

 

 

 

Poor dead horsey--Whack, Whack!!

 


This post was last edited 03/05/2015 at 21:15
Post# 317560 , Reply# 119   3/5/2015 at 19:26 (3,332 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

Just looking at ConsumerReports.org, there are both bypass and direct air upright vacuums with excellent scores for cleaning carpet. Kirby isn't in the current ratings (possibly due to new model), but I believe the Sentria had an Excellent score the last time I checked. CR only provides categorical scores, so they don't actually report which vacuum removed the most dirt.

Post# 317567 , Reply# 120   3/5/2015 at 23:08 (3,332 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Well sebo fan, since Windsor is now part of the Karcher group, it pretty much is the same. Different look. I'd wish it wasn't like that since Sebo is here now but I guess it will have to do.

I'm willing to guess for the commercial market that 1 less switch, a potentially sturdier handle and a variable control are all not necessary and are points of failure. Then again the S12 XP auto leveling Windsor exists. Oh well, I don't know however the diff btw that and the X series!

I couldn't live without that speed control, instead of turning it off, I put it to the lowest setting. It's like idling a lawn mower :)

Post# 317616 , Reply# 121   3/6/2015 at 15:18 (3,331 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Also if you don't want a kirby but want direct air, what about the Koblenz? I used a Sanitaire in the past, and didn't really like it.

Post# 317619 , Reply# 122   3/6/2015 at 15:42 (3,331 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

If you want direct air, but don't want a Kirby then get a Riccar/Simplicity/Maytag 9-lb upright.

Post# 317630 , Reply# 123   3/6/2015 at 16:53 (3,331 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

@ralph, though I can't test it, I'd be sad if it outperformed the Riccar Vibrance provided to me where I clean an office. I just tested my Felix there, and it blew the Riccar away. I have to take 5-7 passes to get all the salt/sand out of their front rug. The felix took it out in one pass. Both had barely filled bags since I just serviced the Vibrance.

Post# 317645 , Reply# 124   3/6/2015 at 18:36 (3,331 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

There must be something wrong with the Riccar if it couldn't keep up with the Felix.  Maybe an internal blockage or perhaps the height wasn't set properly.
Post# 317648 , Reply# 125   3/6/2015 at 19:30 (3,331 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

@sptyks, that's just it, you can't set the height on it. Has a floating head plus right side suction on the bottom. Loves to spit out salt too. I think the only ones that can are the top of the line models.

It can pick up a lot on the first pass, but it simply isn't 100% clean until I pass it a lot more. And since that is the rug to the front office, it has to be as presentable as possible.

I'd had blockages on it before, but I've found the cause of them and fixed it for awhile (leaky floor bottom connector hose). I can tell it was blocked by the tone of the machine.

Nice that it has a clutch on it though. It is built tough, but I wished they spent more and got the commercial version. The cord isn't as tough and had to be replaced, the bottom plate just lost a wheel, and isn't metal, so replaced that. For the $200 or so they saved, they ended up paying for it in repairs anyhow.

Heck, my biggest gripe on it is replacing the brush strips, such a PITA. The Riccar lady explained how to do it, but since one of the end caps wasn't coming off without bending it, I let them do it!

Post# 317650 , Reply# 126   3/6/2015 at 23:15 (3,331 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

It sounds like the Vibrance has some problems. Is the brushroll on the Vibrance damaged? The lifetime of any vacuum in a commercial setting is much shorter than in a household.

Your Sebo Felix is a very good vacuum. I'm not surprised that it cleans well. I wouldn't use a nice household vacuum in a commercial setting, since it voids your warranty.





Post# 317704 , Reply# 127   3/7/2015 at 13:09 (3,330 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

@ralph, no, and I've used it with barely any brushes since most never bothered to change the bags or do maintenance on it.

When the brushes are barely there, it still works ok but can't pull itself along.

But again, I just had them replaced, and also found a bad side bearing on it, so was replaced too.

As it is, I don't have a warranty on the Sebo. But the local dealer says why not, as it isn't really any different than the commercial ones. Legally however it doesn't have a grounded plug so that's the only part I'd worry about but don't care. I like the Felix vs the Dart/Axcess much better.

Post# 317733 , Reply# 128   3/7/2015 at 18:09 (3,330 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

Sprockets said: "Heck, my biggest gripe on it is replacing the brush strips, such a PITA. The Riccar lady explained how to do it, but since one of the end caps wasn't coming off without bending it, I let them do it!"

I'm no expert, but your comment about the end cap made me think there might be something wrong with the brush roll. If there wasn't a problem, I assumed that a person of your expertise probably wouldn't have any problems removing it.



Post# 317746 , Reply# 129   3/7/2015 at 21:32 (3,330 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

@ralph, hard to describe.

They said remove the clip to release the end cap, and pull off. Well, it came off, but the rest of it, being where the belt goes on it, wouldn't come off, and that had to be removed in order to get the one set of brushes replaced.

The other side holds the whole metal tube that holds it together. They told me it may take a lot of effort to get it off, but it will come off. Well, the other side has no clip, and while it looked like it was coming off, all it seemed to do was bend.

It wasn't my vacuum, and I wasn't going to be responsible for replacing a $80 brush roll, so I let them figure it out. Besides, they don't charge to replace the strips so why bother? :)

I tried looking for anything to help me out, but Riccar has no instructions to do it, couldn't find any videos either. Only found one schematic that showed all the parts, but that was it.

Sebo OTOH, well, they make it easy!

Post# 317748 , Reply# 130   3/7/2015 at 21:39 (3,330 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Update on the Vibrance vs Felix front. I cleaned the office today again, but during the day. That same rug? Well, the Felix did good but wasn't the clear victory I thought it was. The Vibrance will scrub very well, but leaves a tiny middle trail due to the bottom plate. The Felix manages to leave no such trail.

With the swivel neck and small head, it can clean in all the small crevices that I'd usually have to stop and take the hose out for with the Vibrance. And that's great for my wrists since I vacuum a lot. But I'll go back to using the Vibrance and use the Felix when it needs a good edge cleaning, which is every couple months.



Post# 348041 , Reply# 131   3/20/2016 at 04:50 (2,951 days old) by Shrink1982 (Indianapolis)        
my experience

 shrink1982's profile picture
I have owned many vacuums. Bought the purple Dyson in 2005 (I don't remember the name). It lasted five years and now it makes a loud noise as if something is caught in it. Hated that thing. Am also not a fan of bagless. You have to breathe in that stuff every time you clean it out. Not fun. I then bought a refurbished Kirby Diamond Edition around 2011, I believe. I always loved Kirbys as my grandparents has one. Had a salesperson come to my house once. Biggest mistake. Their sales tactics are ridiculous. So, the Kirby Diamond cleaned very well but anything with the hose was a no go. I never used it because it was such a pain to use and didn't have very good suction. I also noticed the Kirby would lose suction after starting to fill, and I was using the cloth bags. Even though the full line is only halfway up the bag, it would start to lose suction long before it got there. What was the point in a large bag if I could only fill it less than halfway before losing suction? The suction and airflow were quite powerful. It would definitely stick to the lino in the kitchen but, with such a large head, was impractical for cleaning under low furniture. Also, it was horrible on rugs, even with the motor on low.

Last October I went for it and purchased a SEBO d4 Premium. I really like it. The first thing I noticed was how it groomed the pile. For some reason, the Kirby never did that as well. I don't know if it was because it as so heavy it matted it down but the SEBO power head is very good at grooming. Sure, it doesn't have as much airflow at the head but I don't really need that much. We vacuum often and don't wear shoes in the house. Since our cat passed away two years ago, there just isn't nearly as much dirt to pick up. Mostly just dust which the SEBO does really well with. I love the tools, the build quality and the ease of going from hard surfaces, to carpet, to above floor cleaning. For us, it is the best compromise. I don't kid myself into thinking it does as well on carpets as the Kirby, however, if my carpets were to get really bad I would use the Kirby every month or so. Also, if one vacuums frequently, they may not need a direct air vacuum. If you put it off for a month or so, much of the dirt and dust will get matted to the bottom of the carpet and I would think something like a Kirby would be the vacuum of choice. We vacuum so frequently dirt and dust don't have time to get to the mat. And, as I said, there isn't much dirt coming in.

My point is different vacuums work better for different people and different environments. You also have to take the type of carpet into consideration. Something like a berber or short pile isn't going to need as much airflow as a short or long shag. As we continue to replace our carpets with hardwood and rugs, something like the Kirby becomes less of a need. I probably will vacuum my carpets with the Kirby, for good measure, as I haven't had it out since getting the SEBO. I do miss it and it is nice to switch things up.

Post# 348043 , Reply# 132   3/20/2016 at 05:25 (2,951 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Well said, Shrink1982 - the whole point in your statement that I read was "you also have to take the type of carpet into consideration," which is one of the more important criteria involved when choosing a vacuum. The brands don't tend to fully validate that, not because there are so many types of different carpet, but rather because it involves more than just pasting an approval seal from one of many recognisable brands of carpet to justify that model's existence.



Post# 348184 , Reply# 133   3/21/2016 at 16:29 (2,950 days old) by suckolux (Yuba City, CA)        

suckolux's profile picture
I prefer the direct air for carpet cleaning, not so much for hose use. I also think it helps if you like/ enjoy using the machine, the house will get maybe cleaned more often?

Post# 348196 , Reply# 134   3/21/2016 at 19:15 (2,950 days old) by Miskini (Northville, Michigan )        
I don't care

 miskini's profile picture
What anybody says. My simplicity symmetry s20up cleans every bit as good as my direct air machines.
I would say it's even better than my sanitaires on pet hair.

Post# 348239 , Reply# 135   3/22/2016 at 10:09 (2,949 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Any vacuum's ability to effectively remove pet hair depends mostly on brushroll design rather than the amount of suction or airflow.
Post# 348248 , Reply# 136   3/22/2016 at 12:55 (2,949 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
The Vorwerk VK130 I bought myself recently hasn't got the best suction yet the beater bars are quite good. However as the suction is quite low, the floor head / PN has a tendency to clog.

Post# 348414 , Reply# 137   3/23/2016 at 21:44 (2,948 days old) by Marks_here (_._)        

marks_here's profile picture
I've got a VK130 and i've had no problem with it at all. The suction is the same as the VK120 & VK122 I have plus I got the adaptor so I can use the VK130 PN with the other ones.

Post# 348434 , Reply# 138   3/24/2016 at 05:28 (2,947 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
The VK130 has had some terrible reviews in Germany where the suction is slated and I found that info online after I had bought mine. I can see why.

I was using mine a few days ago without the PN added - and I found the fault why suction is greatly decreased; it is the carbon motor filter sponge.

It protects the motor but there's already a HEPA filter on board and the filter bags that could work just as well without it. Removing the carbon filter and replacing it with a home made cut to fit Miele AirClean filter suddenly gives my VK130 far more suction power.

No wonder Vorwerk improved the design on the later models with a similar microfilter grid at the top of the motor.





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