Thread Number: 25424
James Dyson: "The EU should spur invention, not mediocrity" |
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Post# 285679   6/21/2014 at 14:25 (3,568 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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An article written by Mr. D for the Financial Times: CLICK HERE TO GO TO Turbo500's LINK |
Post# 285695 , Reply# 3   6/21/2014 at 17:15 (3,568 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 285701 , Reply# 5   6/21/2014 at 17:52 (3,568 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)   |   | |
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Reading that post has not done my blood pressure any good at all Chris, but I am glad I read it - simply because I now hate Mr. Dyson even more than before.
I don't say it often Nar, but I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote and am glad you took the time to reply to the ad with your (correct) views.
What I find ironic though, is why he is so bothered by the new EU regulations, because I always thought Dysons were within (or very close to) the new wattage limitations?
It's like a car manufacturer bitching about a new minimum fuel efficiency of 50MPG, when their vehicles get 55 and upward.
Very strange.
I will feel very good about using my old 1977 Hoover Senior tomorrow, if only to imagine Mr. Dyson's face as I supposedly "lose suction after just one room". Aye right. |
Post# 285757 , Reply# 6   6/22/2014 at 02:37 (3,568 days old) by piano_god (British Columbia, Canada)   |   | |
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With his ever increasingly bold tactics, this cry baby article doesn't really surprise me at all. I found his shots at the Germans to be an obvious touch...
I believe Dyson whines because he does not want to be obstructed by any rules, no matter how insignificant or otherwise. He's used to having things this way, I'd say to the point where it's just deceitful, like his new "cleans better than any other vacuum across carpets and hard floors" claim, when it's been only tested among his selection of three (hence the word "any") cheap vacuum cleaners.
A further example of this deceit...
According to Toby Saville, a microbiologist at the Dyson microbiology lab says, "...research has shown us that the best way to deal with bacteria, pollen and dust mite allergens is just to remove them from your home completely. And that's why we focus our efforts on designing vacuum cleaners that pick the dust up from the floor, have cyclones that are incredibly efficient to keep it in the machine, and then filters and seals that make sure that it doesn't get emitted back out into your home."
The microbiologist goes on and on about dust mites being so terrible and how much effort goes into design of filters (sacrilege!) and gaskets like they've harnessed the power of a black hole. Conveniently, there's no mention of emptying that statically charged filth...
This is the kind of blatant ignorance that deserves to be stamped out. That, together with the disposable, high-wattage vacuum cleaners. CLICK HERE TO GO TO piano_god's LINK This post was last edited 06/22/2014 at 02:52 |
Post# 285759 , Reply# 7   6/22/2014 at 03:02 (3,568 days old) by madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)   |   | |
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Thanks Turbo500 for posting this article. It certainly has made for some interesting comments on here! I've certainly had my eyes opened over the last 6 or 7 years with regards to bagless and bagged machines. Bag technology has moved on over the years as well as bagless technology. I'm not sure what Dyson is worried about as for this September 2014 all his machines come under the 1600 watt limit anyway until 2017! I think it's the test and labelling they are subjected too plus the fact that probably a lower watt motor doesn't create enough airflow for the cyclones to work efficiently enough in the bigger machines of his! Plus the fact he seems to be pushing his cordless machines more and more so he'll probably discontinue his corded machines anyway. Or is he concerned as the lower wattage ruling will make other manufacturers sit up and think and have to design better machines invest in R&D which will challenge Dyson machines more! I think the new EU ruling is a good idea in a lot of respects! Might be the thought Dyson thinks bagged machines will make a bigger come back under the new EU ruling!?
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Post# 285761 , Reply# 9   6/22/2014 at 03:44 (3,568 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 285765 , Reply# 10   6/22/2014 at 06:06 (3,568 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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My comment:
It would have been quite nice to hear what Mr. Dyson genuinely thinks of the EU legislation coming in - the pro's, con's and how this will affect the market and any impact on his business model. But instead, Jimmy D has opted for shameless self-promotion of his mediocre product, a blatant attack on the EU and on his competition. This really does demonstrate how much James Dyson doesn't have the faintest idea about vacuuming, vacuum cleaners or the market around him. Both bagged and bagless vacuums have pro's and con's and there is a strong market for both. The EU legislation is an entirely welcome change on a market that has been primarily Dyson-focused for 20 years. This whole article reeks of fear or change. In actual fact, the inevitable legislation introduction will force lazy, money-focused manufactures like TTI and Candy-Hoover to really put some research and development into their products for the first time in over 20 years to find new ways of design high performing machines with low wattages. This is a welcome change for the consumer as it will eventually result in slightly more expensive machines but that are far higher performing and more reliable. On the subject of reliability, it is a well known fact amongst those in the know that bagged vacuums are considerably more reliable than bagless models. Take a look in the skips at your local household waste site - they're full of Dysons and other bagless vacuums, whereas Numatic (Henry et al), Panasonic, Sebo, Miele and old Hoover and Electrolux uprights lasted for decades and, in many cases, are still in daily use. Dyson took the market by storm when they hit the shops in 1993 and this very welcome change is the first shake up that the vacuum market has faced since. It is more than welcome in my view. Vacuum cleaners will be more efficient, more reliable and you won't have to pay through the nose for a Dyson just to get a decent bagless cleaner - THAT is why Mr. D is panicking. On the subject of bagged vs. bagless, who wants to pay £400 for a cheap heap of Malaysian made plastic that requires it's filters cleaning to keep up performance and will inevitably burn out and end up in a landfill itself? Dyson's "no loss of suction" claim is conditional on constant maintenance of the filter. I'd much rather throw a bag in a bin that have to get covered in dust and dirty by emptying bagless bins and washing out clogged filters. |
Post# 285783 , Reply# 12   6/22/2014 at 09:47 (3,567 days old) by matt8808 (Teesside - North East - UK)   |   | |
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I'd pay good money to see you lot locked inside a small room with Mr Dyson for a few hours lmfao You've all made some VERY good points here guys :) |
Post# 285787 , Reply# 13   6/22/2014 at 10:45 (3,567 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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Let me wave to Jimmy D' Heeeeya! Im pretty sure you'll be reading this given your tactics played so far.
Well course he's wetting himself. When consumers actually realise (which WILL happen due to the legislation) they dont need high wattage cleaners to do the job and they are actually paying over the odds in electricity bills for a clean carpet they will want LOWER AND LOWER wattages. Course we know wattages to clean a carpet can go as low as 250W and this combined in a Tandem air maachine could lead to someting else. The legislation could take into account a percentage for splitting down tandem air macine use for average times taken using each side to acieve a more apporpriate figure over a constant 800w cleaner when just floor cleaning is concerned. Of course we dont use the hose for a good 80% of daily average vacuuming (based on timed use of my own) so a 250w motor to drive carpet and hard floor cleaning Hoover Junior style with better suited brushrolls and maybe even a way of getting twin fan could really drive the energy label A grade and beyond while the brushrolls Achieve the same. The hose suction motor of course could be a slightly higher wattage to aid dirt removal but again with twin or triple fans could be easily kept at an A grade while achieving A grade cleaning. Naturally this kind of cleaner would need to be bagged wouldnt it James :D and bags can and do mean little to no loss of suction, HEPA filtration, easy dust disposal. Bags can be made cheap or even part of the cleaners costs. We all know how some folk dont mind spending £400 on a cleaner, so say Hoover could produce this cleaner to sell for £200 including £100 worth of bags for the lifetime of it and retailing it for £300 and still be banging them out. His views on ECO policies seem to be so short sighted given that his cleaners cyclones, and all the hundreds of patented parts he claims he has or had mean that his ECO credentials dont exist. Lets strip everything down - hours and hours of wasted materials, energy for lighting and heating while his engineers concoct their stuff. Production, shipping, assembling of hundreds of bits of plastic when Hoover had it down to a motor, fill tube and brushroll and bag. I bet the weight of a turbopowers plastic comes nothing to what gets used on a Dyson. His day has come and all power to the EU rulings which are the best thing to happen since IBAISAIC. |
Post# 285838 , Reply# 15   6/22/2014 at 20:34 (3,567 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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Is absolutely correct. 'Bags are bad for the environment and are expensive', Dyson loves to promote bagless everywhere he can! The next thing you know he'll be going on about inventing bagless trash bins and convincing people that vacuum cords are a safety hazard! Since when is PAPER not biodegradable? Or even better, think about those few belts or bulbs a Nice, older Kirby uses in the time a modern consumer burns through 4 Dysons..... |
Post# 285853 , Reply# 16   6/22/2014 at 23:14 (3,567 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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Aside from the pompous comments about the supposed superiority of bagless, he is right on. the European rules are stupid and arbitrary. |
Post# 285866 , Reply# 17   6/23/2014 at 05:06 (3,567 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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Post# 285867 , Reply# 18   6/23/2014 at 05:21 (3,567 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Absolutely agree, Rob.
The US have had regulations on vacuum motor power for a long time. Certainly the UK have been brainwashed into this belief that high-wattage = better suction, which is not the case. Hence my mother's 1300w Sebo Felix has more suction power than the 1900w Elecrolux that it replaced. I've seen cleaners go as high as 3000w here. It's causing vacuum motors to run at too high speed and overheat. The new legislation will force vacuum manufacturers to pay more attention to R&D and find new ways of creating high suction, low power machines. Lower wattage motors will also reduce the risk of vacuums running too hot and overheating, thus making them more reliable. This is a very very welcome change to the market, which has been dominated by Dyson and cheap, high power, low reliability cleaners for 20 years now. Whilst Mr. Dyson may have a point that the ratings given with regard to carpet pick up may not reflect use in the home, the basis of the legislation to reduce the amount of energy used by vacuums whilst continuing to perform well is absolutely 100% a good thing. |
Post# 285873 , Reply# 19   6/23/2014 at 07:49 (3,567 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Whilst I agree that the laws are good and i.e will make brands do a little more work rather than re-tarting up existing models with new hoods, colours etc, I think there's a danger here of not knowing the actual saving of money where lower powered vacuums in a UK domestic home are concerned.
There has been no actual "real time" data published in the UK as yet that shows that there can be a saving. Equivalent reports available in the U.S state that as little as $8 every 3 to 5 years, which is something like £4-70 to £5 every 3 to 5 years. Provided that your model is going to last that long, it's still very much up in the air what kind of saving a domestic vac owner is going to make compared to the norm. |
Post# 285875 , Reply# 20   6/23/2014 at 08:00 (3,567 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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It's not just the energy saving, Nar, it's the amount of cheapo-crap vacuums that end up down the tip, clogging up landfills. Mr. Dyson raised the point in his article, albeit rather hypocritically. If you pay a visit to your local household waste site, the pens are FULL of cheap, bagless vacuums. We had a big clear out ready to move just a few months ago and I went for a nosey in the electricals. There was a heap of vacuums piled up, all of them bagless. From memory, a few Vax uprights, a Hoover Dustmanager, about 4 cheap store brand vacs and then a whole pen FULL of Dyson's, from DC01's right up to DC24's.
It's not just the wasteful energy that these 2200w vacuums are using, but the damaged caused when they break within a few years and get sent to the tip. Nobody gets anything repaired anymore as it's so cheap to buy new. If vacuums are more reliable, the less will end up at the tip - another point that Mr. Dyson is sh!tting himself over. LESS SALES. |
Post# 285877 , Reply# 21   6/23/2014 at 08:19 (3,567 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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Given I use our cleaner for approx 1 hour a week in total @ 14p a kw/h using a 2000w Miele costs me 28p.
That adds up to £14.56 a year. Given I could use a cleaner averaging 500w for my weekly cleam brings it down to £3.64 SAVING ME £10.92. I know Id rather that 11 quid personally saved even if it was just the cost a o bottle or 3 of plonk than go to some fat cat at npower. |
Post# 285883 , Reply# 22   6/23/2014 at 09:03 (3,566 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well it might even be cheaper for you if you don't use your vacuum per hour in your weekly cleaning session.
That's the problem though, Rob. There are so many variables in how many times an average Joe uses a vacuum, and how is that saving calculated? Not all people who own a vacuum cleaner in a home will necessarily require to use it to clean up 2.4 children, 2 pets, etc. I think the infinite possibilities from usage are just that - infinite possibilities - and where it would be impossible to calculate what saving you will find unless it is based on averages. Claiming that vacuum cleaners will save on energy has to be proved right down to the last unit of power used. Otherwise, we may as well just use cordless vacuums and robotics for the rest. Or perhaps that is what the industry wants us to do? |
Post# 285887 , Reply# 23   6/23/2014 at 09:39 (3,566 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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Nar at the end of the day a saving is a saving. and if its cost no initial outlay then all the more to gain.
A million customers getting a pound each knocked off their leccy bill because their cleaner uses less electricty soon mounts up to energy companies getting less each year. Given they dont think twice about adding a % to everyones bill yearly knowing we cant do anything about it I welcome consumers getting lower energy using gadgets in the fight back! |
Post# 285890 , Reply# 26   6/23/2014 at 10:01 (3,566 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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Ralph your trolling the wrong people here.
Our washers use 1/3 to 1/4 of the water american machines use and we get better wash results. Low wattage cleaners clean better than high wattage cleaners just because they are designed better. What would you pick? A Hoover Convertible using 400watts or a 1200w miele straight suction cylinder. Seems like you know very little. |
Post# 285891 , Reply# 27   6/23/2014 at 10:08 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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The early 90's seems to be the high point of low energy-high suction power. Electrolux Contour, Hoover Turbopower 2, Panasonic 40 & 50 series - all clean air uprights with excellent suction, certainly enough to rival a model cleaner, and none of them are over 900w.
The key is design. If a cleaner is well designed and thought out, it's entirely possible that cleaners can still have a strong suck without the need for excessive motor wattage. The Dyson Ball cylinders with the digital motor are only 1050w and they really pack a punch suction wise. Numatic have just proved high suction is possible with their new machines, rated at 580w. Not to mention, motor wattage in the US has been limited for a long time. I believe the max is 1400w? And yet, none of our friends in the US are complaining that there chosen vacuums aren't cleaning properly. |
Post# 285892 , Reply# 28   6/23/2014 at 10:11 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Just what do you think Dyson do with all those trade in's? The company can't reuse them, because the parts are not compatible with Dyson cleaners. He won't sell them on, because that would give a competitor more attention and GOD FORBID that happens, eh James?
They get stuffed in a landfill just like all those other vacuums at the tip. |
Post# 285896 , Reply# 29   6/23/2014 at 10:29 (3,566 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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is restricted to 1440 watts so as to not overload our household circuits which are designed to carry a maximum of 1800 watts at 120 volts. Now except for electric stoves and clothes dryers which run on 240 volts with a circuit capacity of 7200 watts.
This law was passed over 20 years ago, not for environmental purposes but for safety reasons.
Now most of our modern american cleaners, bagged and bagless, are rated at 1320 to 1440 watts and they clean very well. (1320 watts = 11 amps. 1440 watts = 12 amps) |
Post# 285899 , Reply# 30   6/23/2014 at 10:38 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Thank you for confirming, Sptyks.
However, the point still stands. With vacuums being capped at 1440w, many manufacturers have proven that one can still clean a carpet and generate high suction power with much less than that. I've yet to see any of our us members complaining about the performance of a Rainbow, Riccar, Filter Queen or Kirby, for example. The UK FQ's are rated 800w, I imagine the US ones are similar, and yet they clean to a very high standard. |
Post# 285907 , Reply# 31   6/23/2014 at 10:58 (3,566 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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You are correct, there are very few complaints here regarding vacuum performance. The Riccar Tandem Air is probably one of the best performing household upright vacuums in the world. This is at a power rating of 11 amps or 1320 watts. (That's with 2 motors).
The biggest problem we face is with cheap plastic vacs that clean very well at first but either break down or the filters get clogged very soon and are therefore thrown away because the owner neglects to clean the filters. Our landfills are becoming full of these. This post was last edited 06/23/2014 at 11:15 |
Post# 285909 , Reply# 32   6/23/2014 at 11:19 (3,566 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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I actually do know what they do with the vacuum they Get in Traded in. If the machine is in good condition and Can save They will Do it up And then Give it to families that can't afford vacuum cleaner And if it's too broken they will Take the metal out of it and it will melt down the plastic and Reuse it or sell it I know this Because I used to know someone that work for Dyson
This post was last edited 06/23/2014 at 13:17 |
Post# 285915 , Reply# 34   6/23/2014 at 11:50 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Not at all. But if strong suction can be generated using lower wattages, thus resulting in more reliable vacuums and a saving on energy, then surely that can only be a good thing.
FYI, Dysonboy, I'm not Sebo_Fan and I think what you're saying is poop, quite frankly. Why would a vacuum cleaner company give away vacuums? Especially competitors vacuums. It's a ridiculous idea and I think it's quite obvious that certain vacuum manufactures won't do anything unless there's a profit in it. I think the same could be said for most, if not all, vacuum companies. |
Post# 285916 , Reply# 35   6/23/2014 at 11:58 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 285918 , Reply# 37   6/23/2014 at 12:15 (3,566 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 285919 , Reply# 38   6/23/2014 at 12:19 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 285924 , Reply# 41   6/23/2014 at 13:01 (3,566 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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dYson boy - I have no idea what you are on about, either sorry.
As collectors we know we can be gentle with a fragile vacuum AND a heavy duty one - Average Joe doesn't know the difference and these days, due to the threat of cheaply priced plastic vacs, ignorance becomes the next level playing card whereby if it is broke, replace it, since it is cheap to buy instead of maintain and repair. Then there are the owners who baulk this trend, who don't treat a plastic vac with disdain, who maintain it regularly and may well find that the plastic-vac actually lasts longer than they thought it would. But, above all of that, only a FEW brands in the UK offer spares availability, and I'm going further here than the common filter, dust bag or drive belt. To return to the original posting of this topic, and further info I also added elsewhere, the average customer in the face of our British recession has had to either make do and mend or just not have whatever gadget or machine they have been so used to in replacing due to cheap cost prices. As a nation we've not been able to do that for some time and as a result, brands such as Numatic, SEBO and to a latter extent Miele have made spares more readily available in light of the "make do and mend" approach. Though I welcome the new EU law with open arms, I won't be throwing out my 2000 watt Miele S6 just because it happens to have far too much rated power. It may well be harder to sell on in the future if I keep in good condition. |
Post# 285928 , Reply# 43   6/23/2014 at 13:28 (3,566 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 285929 , Reply# 44   6/23/2014 at 13:31 (3,566 days old) by DesertTortoise ()   |   | |
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Whew, if this and a couple of other threads get any nastier the board may have to start a new subject area called "Contemptorary". Easy everyone, it's just a hobby! |
Post# 285930 , Reply# 45   6/23/2014 at 13:33 (3,566 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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My point was not that a clean air vs. dirty fan debate. The point is that a clean air machine under 800w can, did and no doubt will perform to a high standard and clean carpets to the same acceptable level as a higher wattage clean air machine.
I have a 700w Panasonic upright with excellent suction and an 800w Hoover Turbopower 2, again with excellent suction. A lower wattage motor, with the right design, can generate strong suction power. Dirty fan doesn't even come into it. |
Post# 285948 , Reply# 50   6/23/2014 at 17:28 (3,566 days old) by hi-loswitch98 ()   |   | |
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To carry on from what vintagerepairer mentioned about hard floors needing very little suction power, doesn't beko1987 use the lowest setting on his Miele for hard floors? |
Post# 285955 , Reply# 51   6/23/2014 at 18:59 (3,566 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well, Gr8DaneDad, the problem with owning a modern vac these days is getting parts for it later on and very much falls down to what the brand at the time keeps in stock where spares are concerned. Planned ownership in the eyes of the brand easily gets lost with planned obsolescence.
Some of our collectors, have realised that finding parts for Hoover's Turbopower 2/3 difficult to find. One might argue and say that Hoover never claimed those were lifetime models, but to cut the model's life expectancy short with a lack of brand new replacement brush rolls means for the most part, owners either have to decide whether they are going to throw the vacuum away or depend on 2nd hand parts until that stock part may return - or never return. Same with the outer soft bags on Hoover uprights - one of my pet hates was having to use a generic soft bag when the original one on any one of my Hoover classic vintage uprights might tear or break. As collectors will tell you, finding an outer soft bag for the model you own is as rare as hen's teeth. Another thought - cleaning hard floors. They are usually non-porous, like wooden shelves - you can use whatever power setting you like when it comes to cleaning hard floors in general - I use high power - I can't abide low power on hard floors - takes far too long dependent on how dirty the hard floor is. Carpet is different - it often requires EITHER a deep brush roll or high enough suction with gentle brush roll so that it doesn't destroy the carpet. Something I wish my early Dyson uprights didn't have such a knack of doing. DesertTortoise - you have already mentioned about your Windsor Sensor and how the electronics prevent it from going deeper into the pile. But both Windsor and SEBO don't advertise the X as a deep cleaning vacuum cleaner. It has always claimed to clean gently as well as offer far better value for money and easily replaceable AND repairable by the owner. Also, I don't know what the parts are like for your Kenmore but SEBO are like Kirby, Numatic - parts for most models are always available. |
Post# 285985 , Reply# 52   6/24/2014 at 04:06 (3,566 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 286005 , Reply# 53   6/24/2014 at 09:10 (3,565 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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You said: " the whole debate as to which vacuum cleaner removes more dirt from it is completely redundant anyway... You walk on floors, you don't eat off them. "
Well I beg to differ. We all need a vacuum cleaner, weather it be Direct air or Bypass air, that will remove as much dirt as possible from our carpets. The reason is that fine dirt and sand which is not visible to the naked eye is what causes carpets to wear out prematurely. That fine dirt and sand that is left behind by an inefficient or inadequately powered vacuum cleaner, when walked on, acts like sandpaper wearing away the fibers in your carpet. You must ask yourself - Is it better to save a few quid on electricity in a year, or save hundreds by extending the life of your carpet by several years? |
Post# 286006 , Reply# 54   6/24/2014 at 09:19 (3,565 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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but didnt we already establish that 250w is enough to clean a carpet perfectly on a bagged machine?
So why the extra power need? Fine tuning this design on a TANDEM air machine like I mentioned means LOWER wattages on average and far lower than any cyclone machine could even scores out with. Low cleaning performance wont be an issue with grading the cleaning performance. Washing machines were scored very successfully this way until manufacturers got their acts toghether in the design department instead of lowering water levels on the same machine design they now maximise water thru cascading paddles and jets in the drums designed for the job. |
Post# 286007 , Reply# 55   6/24/2014 at 09:21 (3,565 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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As has been said before, it's been proven many times before (certainly on the UK market at least) that a vacuum can generate a lot of suction power with a low wattage motor. I have clean air machines of various wattage's from a 500w Electrolux 502 to a 1000w Panasonic and all clean the carpet very well.
See video below. This is a clean air upright from 1989 with a 560w twin-fan motor. Good carpet agitation and strong suction. What more do you want from an upright? Numatic have just proven that with a 580w cleaner that generates 10% more airflow than their previous 1200w cleaner. Dirty fan uprights have been a thing of the past for years. There hasn't been a widely available dirty fan upright since 2001 when the Hoover Turbopower was phased out. Apart from Kirby, there isn't a dirty fan upright on sale in the UK and due to the poor hose suction of cheaper dirty fan uprights and the inconvenience of having to take half the cleaner apart to use the hose, they're not really that likely to make a comeback. |
Post# 286008 , Reply# 56   6/24/2014 at 09:22 (3,565 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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We all need a vacuum cleaner, yes.
We don't need a machine that will destroy our carpets with overuse. That's the marketing truth behind the nonsense that Hoover used to advertise with the "dirt you can't see that is grinding away your fibres.." In reality, excess brush rolls tears carpet pile apart, not to mention over-vacuuming. A vacuum cleaner should just be able to keep things looking cleaning. After all, we can't be sure whether a carpet is really clean unless you microscopically analyse your carpet. On the basis that I have wool carpets I have to be careful with my dirty fan upright. I can't use it for everything because it deep cleans and removes the wool. Softer bristles lessen the wear on the carpets and in this day and age I'd like to have BOTH - a good choice of brush roll or vacuum cleaner that I know is not going to be aggressive but ALSO cleans and is ALSO economical to run. That's why I adore SEBO's X1 Auto and Felix uprights. |
Post# 286022 , Reply# 57   6/24/2014 at 10:42 (3,565 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 286024 , Reply# 58   6/24/2014 at 11:07 (3,565 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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I wasn't trying to push one type of vacuum over another. It doesn't matter if it's Clean air or Dirty fan and wattage doesn't matter as long as it has sufficient power to thoroughly clean a carpet.
I would much rather KNOW that my carpet is as CLEAN as it can be and not just LOOK clean. I think there are many folks here on vacuumland that share this opinion. |
Post# 286025 , Reply# 59   6/24/2014 at 11:16 (3,565 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Quote:
"but I think that if a vacuum cleaner needs to clean exceptionally well and consume less than 800 watts, then it will need to be of a "Direct Air" design like the Hoover Convertable or the Kirby." "I wasn't trying to push one type of vacuum over another. It doesn't matter if it's Clean air or Dirty fan and wattage doesn't matter as long as it has sufficient power to thoroughly clean a carpet." Ok...bit of a contradiction. As proved by the 2 video's above showing 2 clean air machines rated at 560w and 550w respectively, a clean air machine under 800w can produce enough suction power to effectively clean a carpet, which is the whole point of the new legislation as too much power is being wasted. |
Post# 286032 , Reply# 60   6/24/2014 at 11:47 (3,565 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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There may be many on here who share the same opinion that a carpet can be clean as it can be.
Others may share the opinion that as long as it looks clean, then it is clean. However from the first thought you'd have to vacuum every day once the dust settles from the night before. There is no way out of this unless you live in a home where you have a dehumidifier that shifts the moisture out of the way in each room AND also cleans the dust in the air. Short of living in a vacuum with your own air supply is as 100% clinical as you're likely to get. It is impossible to keep carpet 100% clean 100% all of the time. |
Post# 286034 , Reply# 61   6/24/2014 at 11:52 (3,565 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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OK, if you need clarification, sufficient power to thoroughly clean a carpet in my opinion is at least 600 watts with airflow of at least 115 cfm along with a brushroll that sufficiently vibrates the carpet.
As far as your video goes, almost any vacuum over 300 watts can lift the edge of a one square foot piece of carpet. Just because a vacuum can lift the edge of a very small piece of carpet, doesn't mean that it can pull the air through it along with deeply imbedded dirt. |
Post# 286043 , Reply# 63   6/24/2014 at 12:39 (3,565 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Call me crazy, but I'm of the opinion that if a vacuum cleaner has enough suction to pull a whole piece of carpet up off the floor, then it has more than enough suction to pull tiny particles of dust and dirt out of it.
Sptyks, being perfectly honest, I think you're being deliberately argumentative. Even when presented with video evidence of strong suction and carpet agitation generated with under 800w of motor power, you're arguing the toss. And seeing as you haven't used any of these machines and haven't been a part of the market they were sold in or been in day to day scenarios where they would be used, quite frankly, I suggest you come back and have this conversation when you have. This post was last edited 06/24/2014 at 13:19 |
Post# 286046 , Reply# 64   6/24/2014 at 12:52 (3,565 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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Turbo500, are you directing that to me? |
Post# 286047 , Reply# 65   6/24/2014 at 12:56 (3,565 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 286048 , Reply# 66   6/24/2014 at 13:02 (3,565 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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Oh in that case I do apologise. I thought as I had posted last you meant me. |
Post# 286049 , Reply# 67   6/24/2014 at 13:11 (3,565 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Don't worry, Benny. I know you've been in the business long enough to know your stuff. And you were around in the days of lower wattage, clean air vacuums and will of course remember that there were high performing, low wattage, clean air vacuums.
I don't think vacuums clean any better or worse, generally speaking, than they did 30-40 years ago, I just think the methods of getting those results have changed |
Post# 286057 , Reply# 69   6/24/2014 at 14:27 (3,565 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)   |   | |
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I WILL say........ GOOD filter paper is esential for our bagged vacs. The bag plant #2 (HOOVER) Company, made quality bags from QUALITY paper since 1952.
Anyone who ever used those bags can say that the paper was of supeior quality. HOOVER even made bags for 'other species'. I'm not gonna throw gas on the fire, but, good fliter bags "clogging" is nonsense! On the packages and in your owner's manual,{I'll wait while you go to your books and/or machines}.......................Ok. clearly states, (Feel free to all read along), Fine materials like face powder,plaster dust,etc can seal the bag early. When using your cleaner for this purpose, it is suggested that you change the bag more often. Our beloved bagged cleaners work just fine. I'm just sayin' |
Post# 286060 , Reply# 70   6/24/2014 at 14:45 (3,565 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Yes but in the UK (and whether or not it was a claim used in the U.S) Hoover proudly promoted their disposable dust bags as being reuseable, thus saving on cost.
What a pity they forgot to leave out that the dust bag can maybe be used a second time after shaking out after the first, but definitely not a third or fourth time because of clogged pores. |
Post# 286237 , Reply# 72   6/26/2014 at 03:24 (3,564 days old) by NYCWriter (New York City)   |   | |
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Post# 286238 , Reply# 73   6/26/2014 at 03:37 (3,564 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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I beg to differ. Not to get into the great front-loader/top-loader debate, but both machines are 2 different methods of achieving the same results. The main difference being that TL's don't heat the water and require far more additional chemicals and stain removers to achieve the same result as an EU frontloader does with just detergent.
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Post# 286239 , Reply# 74   6/26/2014 at 03:51 (3,564 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 286240 , Reply# 75   6/26/2014 at 04:04 (3,564 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)   |   | |
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As I read it, reference was being made to American top-loaders, but I could be wrong. |
Post# 286241 , Reply# 76   6/26/2014 at 04:04 (3,564 days old) by NYCWriter (New York City)   |   | |
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"The main difference being that TL's don't heat the water and require far more additional chemicals and stain removers to achieve the same result as an EU frontloader does with just detergent."
You're alleging that EU frontloaders "achieve" the same results as American toploaders; they do not. In my experience, at best, what you get with EU frontloaders is a mediocre clean surpassed by even the most mediocre top loaders. |
Post# 286243 , Reply# 78   6/26/2014 at 04:19 (3,564 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Oh for heavens sake
Example LG WT1201CV (its an American model, base line top loader LG washer) It has an INTERNAL water heater built in. You might not be able to find that info on LG US website, but certainly this review from a buyer from 2011 on Amazon.com states it -and he's an engineer. CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK |
Post# 286244 , Reply# 79   6/26/2014 at 04:27 (3,564 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Yes, Benny, I was referring to US Top Loaders. The old UK Hotpoint TL's had heat settings the same as the FL's.
NYCWriter, bold statements considering you use a TL at home. I'd love to see some evidence of this, seeing as you apparantly think everybody in Europe is walking around wearing dirty clothes. Speaking from experience of using a US TL Whirlpool in a previous job to wash kitchen cloths, table cloths and seat covers when I worked for a local childrens activity centre, that machine never got a damn thing clean. It would leave stains and nothing smelt fresh. It was much better to take the washing home and do it in a proper FL. It was eventually replaced by a EU Miele Little Giant, which got everything clean. I'm not blaming this on the machine. The combination of that type of machine and a European detergent just didn't work. If we were using a US detergent and all the additional products that are required to go along with it, I'm sure the results would have been fine. As I said, growning up in a house with 4 kids (3 boys) you can imagine the level of washing and the stains involved - food, mud, grass stains, paint, pen etc. You name it, we washed it. And yet they always came out of the machine clean with no need for additional chemicals and stain removers in the load. Unlike a US TL with no actual heat setting that requires additional chemicals just for basic washing like keeping sheets white. This post was last edited 06/26/2014 at 04:48 |
Post# 286245 , Reply# 80   6/26/2014 at 05:32 (3,564 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Actually Benny, following on from last night's Watchdog consumer news slot, it would appear that most of the UK can't be bothered to shop properly, either. Most do online food shopping, which I have never done, as of yet.
Two of my friends who work (one who is part time, the other full time but off at weekends) have also announced at the age of 30, they're both hiring cleaners to come in as they can't be bothered to clean home. Neither of them are married, but both are blokes who simply can't be bothered. Seems like I must be of very few who loves to do things the old fashioned way. Lemon juice, vinegar, "how to clean by Kim & Aggie" cleaning bible, steam mop and a handful of vacuums I get to use myself. |
Post# 286246 , Reply# 81   6/26/2014 at 06:14 (3,564 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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^I remember when I first left home 6 years ago, a friend of my then flatmate also left home for the first time around the same time as us. He hired a cleaner, lived off take aways and took his washing home for his Mum every weekend. WHAT. IS. THE. POINT?
There's 2 of us at home. Both work long hours. I leave home at 7:20am, and don't get home until between 6:30 and 7pm. Ro has a more flexible schedule because of the nature of his job, but that also means he can sometimes be out late into the evenings or have to be in work early. We still manage to do what we have to. It's pure laziness. |
Post# 286260 , Reply# 82   6/26/2014 at 11:40 (3,563 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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"The main difference being that TL's don't heat the water and require far more additional chemicals and stain removers to achieve the same result as an EU frontloader does with just detergent."
We all know that this is not necessarily the case.
Turbo500: Maybe you should refrain from posting on this subject until you get all your facts straight. |
Post# 286280 , Reply# 87   6/26/2014 at 14:02 (3,563 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Ok, the great front loader vs top loader debate is never ending.
As I've already mentioned, we had a Whirlpool TL at work. I also had the misfortune of using a Speed Queen TL whilst traveling in Europe a few years ago. And the Maytag's at my sisters uni. I found them all excessively large and unnecessary, used too much water and the results were average, at best. Needlessly wasteful. Although the Speed Queen was probably the least offensive.
I've never seen a US TL with full temperature selection - just "cold", "warm" and "hot". Not even adequate IMO.
Seeing as this debate really isn't going to go anywhere (just like it hasn't done for the last god knows how many years on Autowasher), lets get back on topic, shall we?
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Post# 286283 , Reply# 88   6/26/2014 at 15:44 (3,563 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Apart from SEBO and Hoover with their TP2/3 series, has there been any other upright on the market which has a motor filter on top of the hood before the bin? I'm just wondering about this, with talk about filters and what Benny refers to in his last response regarding some vacuums that have low power and still put out dust, in particular vacuums of old.
Im also wondering and from where I have seen it - cleaning tools that have vents in the recesses of a machine, where the suction air takes the dust off the cleaning tools when they are stored on the vacuum cleaner. |
Post# 286314 , Reply# 90   6/26/2014 at 18:59 (3,563 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 286380 , Reply# 92   6/27/2014 at 03:38 (3,563 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 286385 , Reply# 93   6/27/2014 at 05:00 (3,563 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 286400 , Reply# 95   6/27/2014 at 10:09 (3,562 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 286470 , Reply# 96   6/27/2014 at 16:37 (3,562 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Im quite confused DT
Your profile states that you are into Windsor vacs and that your cleaning crew has them. You also appear to like them. You own two S12 models by Windsor, or as we used to be able to get them in the UK, the SEBO G1/G2 series with manual height adjustment. The Felix is marginally lighter than the X series in my opinion, but you win the swivel plus of the Felix plus it can be used with suction only tools, thus at its most maximum weighs 5kg without the PN added. Im not saying that SEBO should add suction-cleaning tools to their roster of design, but moving on with the duster idea that Electrolux/Eureka fitted to some of their bagless uprights, I'm sure cleaning off tools once they are installed into a cradle of some sort could be cleaned off. It is just a thought I had, not an intentional move for any brand to pick up and I was just interested to know if anyone knew of any vacuum cleaner that has those kind of tool holders. If we are going to go pedantic about vacuum watts vs cleaning a floor, not all floors are level, not all kinds of carpet have the same pile. There are many variables to consider, it's not just about a brush roll or whether the machine has auto adjustment or manual. |
Post# 291043 , Reply# 98   7/30/2014 at 09:21 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291047 , Reply# 99   7/30/2014 at 09:46 (3,529 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)   |   | |
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It wont take a disheartened sales man to cut Dysons sales.
Its going to be very simple for customers to buy a new vac now and very simple for JD to have the market swept from under his feet thanks to these new amazing labels. Just like when they took off with washing machines this will happen. Any customer wanting a new vac will look for AAA ratings on machines first. When they find the machines with these ratings I reckon they will look for a price they like. and finally check the brand to make sure that fits too along with features they may want. When folk start realising they dont need to spend Dyson money to get AAA ratings and its purely down to finding features and reliability folk will flock from buying Dysons and start buying other brands. What with Vax's 6 year warranty, a NLOS machine with features galore and all for around £100 that ought to be enough to stick him out of business . Lets see how 'Cinetic' his bank balance stays then haha |
Post# 291057 , Reply# 100   7/30/2014 at 11:01 (3,529 days old) by hi-loswitch98 ()   |   | |
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Welcome back, adamthemieleman :) |
Post# 291059 , Reply# 102   7/30/2014 at 11:37 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Sorry but I don't think Dyson does cheats and lies if is not true they can't sayit What you are saying is just poo sorry but the DC 41 Claim you're saying is just not true they have to test it between most vacuum I've never seen the claim the most powerful upright i have seen the claim the most powerful upright at the cleaner head. I know why you don't like Dyson any more because they don't want you to work for them. I'm hundred percent sure it's just a rumour where you got information about the claim
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Post# 291060 , Reply# 103   7/30/2014 at 11:46 (3,529 days old) by SeamusUK (Dover Kent UK)   |   | |
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Dyson AAA Rating Upright £429.99 5 Year Guarantee Vax AAA Rating Upright £229.99 6 year Guarantee No brainer really ..... Seamus |
Post# 291061 , Reply# 104   7/30/2014 at 11:50 (3,529 days old) by SeamusUK (Dover Kent UK)   |   | |
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They really don't work........ Miele would have similar performance to the Riccar I would imagine...... Seamus CLICK HERE TO GO TO SeamusUK's LINK |
Post# 291062 , Reply# 105   7/30/2014 at 11:51 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291063 , Reply# 106   7/30/2014 at 11:54 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291066 , Reply# 108   7/30/2014 at 12:36 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291067 , Reply# 109   7/30/2014 at 12:36 (3,529 days old) by parwaz786 ( )   |   | |
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If you get rude Vax staff, can you be rude back then? :D |
Post# 291068 , Reply# 110   7/30/2014 at 12:41 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291073 , Reply# 112   7/30/2014 at 13:22 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291077 , Reply# 114   7/30/2014 at 13:55 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Hiya, Sorry you have had such a bad experience with Dyson not giving you a chance. You actually sound quite upset by it. What is your disability? I have aspergers - is it anything similar? This is why I have always been so obsessed with vacuum cleaners especially Dysons. Hence I will always love them and get upset that you won't sell them!!! I would love to meet Mr Dyson. Any ho! Hope you will sell Dysons in the future.
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Post# 291079 , Reply# 116   7/30/2014 at 14:01 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291080 , Reply# 117   7/30/2014 at 14:02 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Post# 291083 , Reply# 119   7/30/2014 at 14:05 (3,529 days old) by hi-loswitch98 ()   |   | |
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What about Vax Adam I'm sure they were advertising jobs for designers. |
Post# 291088 , Reply# 120   7/30/2014 at 14:39 (3,529 days old) by parwaz786 ( )   |   | |
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What kind of people would Dyson employ? I want to work at Dyson |
Post# 291090 , Reply# 121   7/30/2014 at 14:40 (3,529 days old) by dys0nb0y (Luton)   |   | |
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Yes - shame really I think Dyson have just become too big and lost the human touch. James has forgotten how he had to struggle. Sounds like you have lots of skills you can use. I think you have the idea job - I would love to work in Currys selling vacs, that is my dream job. Sure your grandparents are very proud of you and just wanted you to be happy in whatever you do. Don't forget, please still sell Dysons - I am sure one day you will like them again!! I have gone off them before but always come back to them eventually.
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Post# 291220 , Reply# 123   7/31/2014 at 04:26 (3,529 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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Very interesting reading through these comments on peoples interpretations on power and what is and isn't "deep cleaning". I am glad these new legislations have come in and what they are forcing manufacturers to do, and its interesting to see how different companies are responding. Vax/TTI are responding well, having already got a range of "eco" labelled products out which are as powerful, or more effective at cleaning as some of their models with 3 times the wattage motors. I can vouch for that as my vax eco air I made a thread of last week is the only vacuum that sticks itself to the carpet as you pull back, the rear wheels lift off the ground. I put that down to good seal of the head, and the machine is very light, it isn't hard to push or pull, just very nice knowing that it is deep cleaning, and the dirt which bounces around before it gets sucked up, adds to that sense, and it is 820 watts combined. Probably 700 watts for the suction motor, 120 for floor head maybe ?
With any type of motor, the wattage or capacity says nothing about it efficiency. In the same way my Audi TDI is quicker and has more pulling power than my dads Lexus he had 10 years ago, yet I get 60 MPG out of mine, in the same way, numatic can say their 580w motor has more airflow than their 1200 motor, but obviously uses less power. If manufacturers can suddenly do all this now without scratching their heads thinking how they can produce low wattage powerful motors, why haven't they done it before? We all know they used to, up until he 90's, 500, 700 and 900 watt motors were popular. I guess we all know its about making something as cheap as possible, profit making. The new EU reg's are a good idea, I like the A to G rating of pick up performance on carpets and hard floors, and exhaust emissions. People will be able to make a ore accurate decision about purchasing their cleaners and should spur more competition. I still stand by what I first said when we heard about these regulations. I hope the EU are doing this to simply spur innovation and make manufacturers actually work on the products they are producing, I hope it's none of this environmental rubbish, even though it helps, if they are really worried about that, focus on making kettles more energy efficient, people use them a lot more than vacuums! Also, someone here mentioned about twin fan motors. Could someone explain what that is ? Is it a clean air motor with two fans? |
Post# 355926 , Reply# 126   7/12/2016 at 09:41 (2,816 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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The reality is that consumers are not voting because most if not all couldn't care less about a mere vacuum cleaner chalking up a power bill.
In my opinion there's no point in quoting older vintage vacuums because that was in the past and lets face it, all of these brands that you mention also sold on the believe that the higher the power, the better the suction. Just a simple marketing advertising tool to push the product along the sales chart. |
Post# 355978 , Reply# 127   7/13/2016 at 04:13 (2,816 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 356004 , Reply# 129   7/13/2016 at 12:12 (2,815 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 356012 , Reply# 130   7/13/2016 at 14:09 (2,815 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 356021 , Reply# 131   7/13/2016 at 16:05 (2,815 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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