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Post# 195500   8/16/2012 at 16:25 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Could somebody please give me a timeline on what happened to the UK Hoover company and when it happened, because I was always under the impression that Candy came into the picture around the Millennium, but Wikipedia says they bought it in 1993 from the Maytag corporation who bought it from the Hoover family in 1989...

I need some information!





Post# 195503 , Reply# 1   8/16/2012 at 16:32 (2,792 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Did you check the UK Hoover site?

 

Here's what it says:

 

"...In 1985 Hoover merged with the Chicago Pacific Corporation, based in the USA. Four years later, Chicago Pacific was acquired by domestic appliance giant The Maytag Corporation. The Hoover European Appliance Group came into existence in 1993 and is now part of Candy S.p.A, a private company based in Brugherio in Northern Italy..."


Post# 195504 , Reply# 2   8/16/2012 at 16:33 (2,792 days old) by beko1987 (Stokenchurch, United Kingdom)        

The 1993 Hoover Service manual is of the same quality as the 1980's ones, full of advertising, and feeling. The 1995 one is a lot thinner, no ads at all and much less of a 'Hoover Service Centre' feel.

Post# 195505 , Reply# 3   8/16/2012 at 16:35 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Can't tell you the date young Jamie, but Candy took control in the early part of the 1990's when Hoover went down the drain following the free flights incident. Here is a video of a documentary about some of the changes.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO vintagerepairer's LINK


Post# 195518 , Reply# 4   8/16/2012 at 16:52 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Thank you Benny, I'll watch that in the morning.

The products were still of incredibly good quality in the 90s though so I suspect Candy did SOMETHING right until around the year 2000 when they started moving production from Britain to cheaper places and as such meant lesser quality.


Post# 195526 , Reply# 5   8/16/2012 at 16:59 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well it is a difficult question to answer, because floorcare was a massive part of the Hoover brand, and taking away anything which was going on at Hoover, during the 1990s Dyson was ploughing through the vacuum cleaner industry like a tornado (or should that be a cyclone), causing a good deal of changes all around. So whether the changes made at Hoover were wholly due to the Candy take-over or not is probably down to personal opinion.

Certainly I think that Candy probably was happy to 'Hoover' up the Hoover share of the white-goods market, and if one looks at all other manufacturers who bought up others, the same story is usually told. It is very much like Indesit who bought up the Hotpoint group and slowly began making Hotpoint machines to the Ariston and Indesit designs.


Post# 195528 , Reply# 6   8/16/2012 at 17:02 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Not just Hoover moved abroad with manufacturing - What did James Dyson do in 2002? He got the Greedy for Profit bug, and moved all production to the far east. The problem is people in the UK always want higher wages and with the minimum wage and price inflation here, Dyson could get labour a lot cheaper in Malaysia - it made better business sense to him, and most companies couldn't give 2 hoots about ethics and keeping their production in the UK, money, big bonuses and satisfying the shareholders is all that matters now. Its a sign of the times.

Post# 195531 , Reply# 7   8/16/2012 at 17:03 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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As much as I don't like to think it, maybe you are right and even the original Hoover Company would have still made the same decisions that were made by Candy in and after 2000.

Hold on, Indesit own Hotpoint!?

And I thought they were a good brand... Maybe once, but no more it seems.


Post# 195534 , Reply# 8   8/16/2012 at 17:04 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Indeed it is Steve and I do not like the current times one bit.

Post# 195535 , Reply# 9   8/16/2012 at 17:07 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I have to say I don't care what reasons will be posted in defence of James Dyson following that last message, I agree entirely with what has just been said. Many factors were affecting the retail side of the products, such as retailers having to make up their own retail prices and profits following a ruling in the late 1990's which prohibited the manufacturers from dictating the lowest permitted selling prices of electrical goods. This served as a major tool in the fight for lower prices in stores. As this was taking effect, shops began to close down and of course the internet as a whole was expanding. With that, as we know, came more online retailers. Products had to be made cheaper and cheaper in order to compete. But some companies like Dyson were actually doing very well at this time.

Post# 195540 , Reply# 10   8/16/2012 at 17:13 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Yes Jamie, Indesit and Hotpoint are the same. Indesit and Aristion were owned by a company called Merloni. Ariston was the so-called premier range of products, with Indesit being the budget. In the early 2000s Merloni bought a major chuck of GDA which was the company who owned Hotpoint, Creda, and Cannon. When Merloni bought up most of GDA (if not all of it) the Ariston brand was removed from the UK market and replaced by Hotpoint.

Bosch stopped supplying the parts and licencing to make Hotpoint dishwashers and production shifted to one of the Merloni factories. Crosslee stopped supplying the Indesit dryers and Creda dryers from the UK factory began the supply of a whole range of dryers which actually matched the Indesit washers, something which Indesit had never had before.

I am not at all sure now which machines are made where, but I understand that a lot of UK production has ceased, with Hotpoint washing machines being built to the Ariston designs.


Post# 195541 , Reply# 11   8/16/2012 at 17:14 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Dyson fan or not (I'm not) I don't think anybody could defend James Dyson for bringing production away from Britain.

One company who I believe will remain British for ever and ever is Numatic.


Post# 195545 , Reply# 12   8/16/2012 at 17:17 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Numatic are well and truely British, but I strongly suspect that some parts and sub-assemblies are not from the UK.

Post# 195546 , Reply# 13   8/16/2012 at 17:17 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Deary me I only meant to say "forever" there, I was thinking of the Our Father prayer which must have swayed my thoughts subconsciously (For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.)

Strange how that happens, isn't it ?


Post# 195547 , Reply# 14   8/16/2012 at 17:18 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Not thinking of the Our Father prayer - Freudian slips I mean.

Post# 195548 , Reply# 15   8/16/2012 at 17:18 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Maybe you say the Lords Prayer before bed?

Post# 195550 , Reply# 16   8/16/2012 at 17:23 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I do, which is why I was thinking of it (not that I'm in bed yet, I'm putting off subjecting myself to the torture of tossing and turning until 3AM as I've done the last few nights).

It is hell, to use an unholy word.


Post# 195560 , Reply# 17   8/16/2012 at 17:31 (2,792 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
Ignorance is bliss until you start to pay out for repairs.

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The thing is though, unless you actually buy and own the brand you're none the wiser nowadays with brand reliabiity. I recall Ariston washers were seldom reliable as well as Colston (anyone remember them??!) machines and Indesit had poor reliability for many years. Yet, I have a Hotpoint tumble dryer now- it was cheap as chips to buy at the time, it's vented so less goes wrong in theory and its relatively quiet when in use. I'd have never considered Hotpoint now because I knew that Indesit were the backing company, but I've been honestly, quite surprised and delighted that nothing has gone wrong with the now, four year old machine and it is used every third day or once a week depending on the wash loads. Would I consider Hotpoint in the future? After putting up with a horrible White Knight for many years and kept spending excess on replacement doors (4 in all) and then the heater element burning out, I may well consider Hotpoint again for its reliability and less cost.

 

I think it can be quite foolish to think that buying a brand that used to be good, can still be good, nowadays. It doesn't happen very often and although I may be singled out, I don't think Dyson would have survived had he remained in the UK with production of his models - and Benny does make good points here in so far as the way in which are economy and wages are concerned.

 

Dyson on the other hand is not like Numatic where they are churning out ONE machine with several variations. Numatic enjoy the market they hold and they've done very well. Their position in the UK makes a lot more sense, because they aren't interested in huge sales - why else has it it taken them so long to break into the U.S market? Numatic are very different to most other vacuum brands and have followed a pattern that most other commercial brands have done - keep the basic machine in production and add design changes little by little as the years go by.

 

Another British brand that I miss from my child hood is Tricity and Belling. Belling I believe, was swallowed up by Creda. Belling cookers used to be well built and lasted ages. My granny had 2 of them and 2 Tricity cookers. We had a 20 something year old double range Belling that came with the house my parents bought. It just refused to die, even if its white metal parts were starting to rust exterior wise. Replaced it with a modern Belling in the 1990's and it lasted only four years with a burnt element in the main oven. 

 

 

 


Post# 195563 , Reply# 18   8/16/2012 at 17:36 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I enjoyed reading what you had to say Ryan and agreed with it too.

Before my interest in Vacuum Cleaners became a hobby we made a big mistake and bought a Dust Manager in 2007. That was the single worst vacuum I've ever owned.

Lasted 6 months then died and went out to the bin.

And why did we buy it ? Because "it is a Hoover; they invented it!".

Yep, how wrong.


Post# 195565 , Reply# 19   8/16/2012 at 17:37 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Sebo-fan, I must suggest that Belling was in fact taken over by the Glen-Dimplex group, a group which now owns so very many of the UK favourite names. They keep the names going, but the likes of Beko are supplying a good deal of white goods. Then again, Beko is a brand which like Zanussi came to the UK on a wing & a prayer, with some relativity poor quality products, but then took off like a rocket where quality was concerned. So a Lec fridge is no longer a Lec as you and I knew it, but it's as good as a Beko of today, which I think is not a bad product all-round.

Post# 195573 , Reply# 20   8/16/2012 at 17:49 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Well Benny to say I am disappointed with my 2011 Lec fridge is no word of a lie.

The block of ice that forms at the back of the fridge is unbelievable even on the correct setting. It could have sunk the RMS Titanic given the chance.


Post# 195574 , Reply# 21   8/16/2012 at 17:50 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Plus the plastics are of very poor quality and brittle so they snap easily, as most of them have.

Post# 195586 , Reply# 22   8/16/2012 at 18:06 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Like I said, the quality of it will be like that of a Beko. I have never owned a Beko fridge but have heard many good and some not so good comments.

The original Lec, made down in Bognor Regis were cheap, plain, of good quailty, had no exciting features what so ever, but lasted for years and years and years. Indeed I suspect that most were replaced due to them being worn out or scruffy, rather than due to mechanical breakdown.


Post# 195590 , Reply# 23   8/16/2012 at 18:12 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I wish the same could be said for modern appliances, but it cannot.

Post# 195599 , Reply# 24   8/16/2012 at 18:33 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

I know the Hotpoint and Indesit washers are all failing prematurely for drum bearing noise or the spider arms cracking on the back of the drum, I just wouldnt touch a Hotpoint washer now (says he with a Hotpoint dryer, and Fridge Freezer lol) Hoover and Candy had that scare not long back with the drums exploding on the 14 and 1600 RPM Grand O machines. Seems that if you want a decent washer, Miele is the best to go for, or LG for a cheaper compromise.

Post# 195606 , Reply# 25   8/16/2012 at 18:45 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hotpoint washing machines have had many problems with bearings for a good deal of years, unfortunately. In 1997 they overhauled their Aquarius and Ultima machines completely, bringing out a style of machine which was much more modern for that period in time. Sadly, there were a good deal of teething problems and rouge machines. The replacement Aquarius and Ultima ranges from the year 2000 (these were the first machines to be the style which had a dial on the Aquarius but were full electronic) had so many problems with bearing and drum failure. I am surprised that the Hoptpoint reputation stood the abuse it took. Three series later, and the problem with the bearings seemed to be sorted, but then soon after design switched to that of the Ariston style.

Going back to what I said on another message link, about cheap carpets, I know there are people who still want quality white goods, but equally a good deal of people seem to think buying cheap (often at less than half the price of a quality machine) is the way to go, and use it until it fails, then buy new. Whether this is right or wrong is another debate. The fact is is that the current obscenely low price of new white goods makes it easy to throw out and buy new. Indeed one might be considered foolish for paying say £100 on a 3 year old 'cheap' washing machine which can be replaced for £200.


Post# 195611 , Reply# 26   8/16/2012 at 19:25 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

I suppose, back in the late 70's when my father paid an arm and a leg for the new Hoover electronic 1100 machine, relative to todays prices, it would have cost the equivalent of a Miele machine today. We all complain that modern machines including vacuums just dont last like they did in the good old days, but washing machines and vacuum cleaners in the 1970's were an awful lot dear than today, which is why they were built better and lasted longer. I suppose its a case of you get what you pay for - but not always - In America, they had huge problems with the Whirlpool Duet washers corroding through their drum spiders after a couple of years, but these machines cost a fortune! We could also ask, are top end Dysons really worth what they are asking for them £400 odd for the DC41?

Post# 195612 , Reply# 27   8/16/2012 at 19:36 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well, with a Dyson, one pays for the R&D which has gone into it, not so much the materials and the labour costs. That is what Dyson claim anyway. I sit on the fence with Dyson and their comments. What I do know is that some of the prices I had to charge for repairing cleaners were met with a sharp intake of breath and a 'just for that?' comment. I always informed people before work began as to what the cost was. I also very politely told them it was a case of take it or leave it, as the costs were mostly my labour because of the time involved in fitting the part or parts, no matter how small the part was.

With a five-year guarantee, I think a Dyson may be good value. What I think is very poor is that for the price they command, one no longer gets a decent set of tools or long enough mains lead.

I confess I am not one to talk in terms of how long things should last, but I do very much take your point and know of people who do this. Prices of appliances did fall over time as more and more people were buying them, and that was a good thing, but then it all got to the stupid stage, and we ended up in the situation we are in now.


Post# 195616 , Reply# 28   8/16/2012 at 19:57 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

It must be very much harder now for the domestic appliance repair shops, as you say, but it is only since I started buying old DC07's and doing them up for resale that I realise the problems faced - I pay £20 for the cleaner after a bidding war on Ebay, then have to collect the cleaner, up to £10 in petrol costs, then have to assess what it will need doing to it - usually a repair to the hose, new belt, new filter, etc and then all the hours stripping and cleaning it. Then after all this people just wont pay more than £60 for the finished article, and Ebay want 10% of this in fees, so I end up with £54. My costs are £30 before I've even started spending on parts, so that gives me £24 to play with, and if the motor is shot, then its game over. People selling second hand spares for these cleaners want so much for each part, then theres the postage - I ask myself, whats the point? I do it as a hobby and I like to give my cleaners a new lease of life, and feel proud when I look at what I achieve.
If I charged £6 for my labour in refurbing these cleaners then I should be charging at least £100 for the finished item - but who would pay that?
You must be in the same situation when someone brings in a vacuum that needs a new motor or cable fitting and then say - "how much? I'd be cheaper going to Argos and buying a new one!"


Post# 195668 , Reply# 29   8/17/2012 at 03:53 (2,792 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well, I was one of the lucky ones. I bought my shop and business in 1979 and paid it all off by 1991. Business was getting very hard towards the end, but I had made my money from it and always said I would retire at 65, which I did. That was in 2004. I never intended to sell my shop as a going concern, in fact I was happy to sell anyone who wanted the building (it had a 2-story flat above). As it was, a young man and woman bought it and carried on as a vacuum repair shop, but it didn't last two years. I didn't sell the business side of it for much, after all how does one put a real price on 'goodwill' (of which there was little)? I left a lot of stock and old cleaners behind as I had no use for them. I am sorry the business is gone, but I am not surprised.

Post# 195669 , Reply# 30   8/17/2012 at 04:08 (2,792 days old) by suctionselector (Leeds, England)        
Hotpoint

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Used to be owned by GDA as well as Creda, but in 2000's, they became Indesit owned.

You are right, they used to be good, not any more :(


Post# 195674 , Reply# 31   8/17/2012 at 05:02 (2,792 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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There were 2 divisions of Merloni, almost 2 rival companies. The Merloni brothers both owned a washing machine company - one had Indesit and the other had post-91 Servis, Electra and Diplomat.

 

Merloni aquired Hotpoint in 2007. The WMA range was the last of the british made machines. Hotpoint and Indesit vented dryers are still made in England at the old Creda plant. I have to say, Indesit and Hotpoint washers have improved dramatically recently. When the first range of Ariston-style Hotpoints came out, they were awful. The newest range is actually pretty good.

 

With Hoover, despite being taken over by Candy in 1995, they were still quality, british made products. The Softwave, New Wave and early Performa machines were great. Even the Six range of the early 2000's was built to acceptable standards. The Merthyr factory continued to operate until 2009. By this time, more and more production had gone over seas and only a very limited number of products was still made in Merthyr.


Post# 195675 , Reply# 32   8/17/2012 at 05:04 (2,792 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Also, I believe someone mentioned Tricity? They became part of the Electrolux group in the early 80's and subsequently became the bottom range. They were still excellent machines though.  


Post# 195676 , Reply# 33   8/17/2012 at 05:06 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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It is a shame that we live in a world today where an appliance is bought for the low price and not the brand or quality of the item.

A great shame indeed, yet people wonder why the economy is in a shambles. Maybe if more was actually made in Britain our economy would be in a better state. Who knows since that will never happen apart from the select few who already manufacture here.


Post# 195682 , Reply# 34   8/17/2012 at 05:29 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Hoover vacuums started going downhill after the Turbopower range was discontinued in favour of the purepower - at about the same time Dyson was becoming really popular. Hoover should have been improving models at that time to compete with Dyson, not making them poorer - but then, it must have been difficult with Dyson patenting his Dual cyclone designs so that no -one else could copy them. It has to be said, Hoover's earliest attempts at bagless were pretty dire! The One, Performer, Performer Pets were desperately bad. They only starting improving again with the Freedom multi-cyclonic - which was a pretty good cleaner which is why I got one. Now that more munufacturers are making bagless multicyclonics, things are improving and Dyson is getting some serious competition. I am seriously considering the new Globe model, as it looks very good, but am waiting for some reviews on it yet to see what people think of it.

Post# 195684 , Reply# 35   8/17/2012 at 05:37 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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As it happens Steve, Hoover DID copy them with the Vortex and got sued for it in either 2001 or 2002 if I remember right.

The Vortex supposedly let out a lot of dust into the air deliberately for some reason I don't know.


Post# 195685 , Reply# 36   8/17/2012 at 05:40 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Correction, it was the year 2000, incidentally just as Hoover started making their vacuums abroad and of poorer quality.

They were probably hit hard financially by the court case and it as such impacted their Vacuum Cleaners negatively.


Post# 195688 , Reply# 37   8/17/2012 at 05:54 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Dyson sued Vax a few years back with the Mach Zen didnt they - it did look very similar to the DC05!
Its only natural that James Dyson didnt want his monopoly on the cyclonic market damaging, and he succeeded for a good many years, but now, he does face stiff competition. I love the little Vax Mach Air model and actually think its better than the DC18 that it most resembles - I grabbed one at Argos when they were only £130 and think its a great little cleaner. I didnt like many of Vax's earlier bagless cleaners though, very high maintenance with all that filter cleaning they needed - was the same problem with Hoover's The One - Which magazine ripped it to pieces lol


Post# 195690 , Reply# 38   8/17/2012 at 06:07 (2,792 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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James Dyson lost his court case against Vax over the Zen, I believe.

 

By the time the Vortex came out, Hoover had already been taken over by Candy. The real blow to Hoover was the free flights fiasco that ended up costing the company millions and sending them bankrupt and in need of a buyer. The first stage of the free flights offer to Europe was actually a massive success. It was the second stage of free flights to the US that killed them.


Post# 195691 , Reply# 39   8/17/2012 at 06:10 (2,792 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        
The Hoover Vortex...

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Personally, I thought that the Hoover Vortex did a much better job than the DC01. It had stronger suction power and the addition of the activator brushroll AND more practical tools. It was also of considerably better build quality. I know of a number of houses still using the original white and red Vortex cleaners. I think this pissed Mr. D off even more that Hoover had actually made a better version of his cleaner.


Post# 195694 , Reply# 40   8/17/2012 at 06:46 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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"I think this pissed Mr. D off even more that Hoover had actually made a better version of his cleaner." Ha ha, I can believe that was true.

Am I the only one here who thinks that if James Dyson had got together with Hoover in 1992 and they had worked together then we might have actually had very good bagless Hoovers ?

Think about it, Dyson had the No Loss of Suction cyclonic system which even I admit was pretty good and Hoover had the Activator brush roll and the great build quality.

In my eyes they could have made something truly brilliant if they had worked together.

A well built body, No Loss of Suction cyclonic bagless system, great brush roll and the name people still trusted back in the early 90s.

It is a shame such a partnership did not form and if I'm right in thinking that James Dyson did go to other brands with his ideas then Hoover will be kicking themselves now for not taking him on I'm sure.


Post# 195697 , Reply# 41   8/17/2012 at 06:56 (2,792 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Yes, Mr D did go to other manufacturers with his designs but they just laughed at him and pooh poohed them! They were enjoying the profits they were making from people buying their disposable dustbags, so why would they want to make a cleaner that didnt use them? They also ridiculed his idea of clear dust containers, but as we know now - people were really fascinated by seeing their own dust spinning round the cyclone bins lol

Post# 195698 , Reply# 42   8/17/2012 at 07:03 (2,792 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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"people were really fascinated by seeing their own dust spinning round the cyclone bins" Not me, I hate seeing my dirt, makes the vacuum look dirty.

Post# 195724 , Reply# 43   8/17/2012 at 09:03 (2,791 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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I agree Jamie, if Hoover had formed a good partnership with James Dyson, we could have had a fantastic cleaner and this could've saved Hoover from the disasterous Free Flights Fiasco. Mr. Dyson's cyclone works extremely well - better than any other on the market. But James Dyson is NOT a vacuum enthusiast. He is an engineer who sadly does not seem to know much about carpet care or carpet cleaning.


Post# 195726 , Reply# 44   8/17/2012 at 09:08 (2,791 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Indeed, the idea is there but the performance is not.

Post# 195743 , Reply# 45   8/17/2012 at 12:55 (2,791 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 195745 , Reply# 46   8/17/2012 at 13:01 (2,791 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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"This post has been removed by the member who posted it." That sounds ominous...


Post# 195754 , Reply# 47   8/17/2012 at 14:23 (2,791 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Merloni may have fully aquired GDA in 2007, but they had a huge stake in the company from around the year 2000.

James Dyson did indeed lose his case against Vax, who based their cleaner on a DC02. Dyson then lost the appeal as well.


Post# 195901 , Reply# 48   8/17/2012 at 20:17 (2,791 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Yes but when you look at timeline history with Hoover products when other brands have paid Hoover to use their machines, it's not like its the other way around until now. What I'm trying to say here is that whilst Hoover and Dyson may have been good for each other, I don't think Dyson would have bowled down to have his name quashed with the Hoover brand. It is true that he could have had any other vacuum cleaner brand and model at the time - to realise that the dust bags kept clogging and were pretty much useless after the third or fourth attempt, but Dyson wanted to retain his name - and I don't think Hoover were happy to take on the brand or the invention because of the laws Dyson stipulated at the time. 

 

Frankly when it comes down to it, Dyson doesn't need to care tuppence about carpet cleaning, let alone grooming a carpet = these are secondary issues against the cyclone design he's done.

 

You all may have your own views of a Dyson vacuum that doesn't remove deep down dust - but at the end of the day, if the machine removes the dust you can see, then it shouldn't be such an issue.

 

Lets not also forget that the fabled, failed Sinclair C5 was bizarely run by a Hoover washing machine motor and Hoover UK went as far to service Sinclair C5 trikes. I liked that trike but it's a pity that it never took off and ultimately for Hoover, spelt another disaster.


Post# 195974 , Reply# 49   8/18/2012 at 04:10 (2,791 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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The way I see it from the start Dyson has been interested in fancy cyclones but not given a thought to carpet care and Hoover (until the Dyson's release) didn't care to bother with a bagless attempt but DID care about carpet grooming.

For that reason I think it would have been good to have something with a good cyclonic system and a brush roll capable of removing deep down dirt.


Post# 195979 , Reply# 50   8/18/2012 at 07:54 (2,790 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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I used to have that opinion Jamie - many years ago - much about the same time when I started to become a vacuum cleaner collector and being led into Hoover marketing mantra aspects. But, over the years having worked with contract cleaning teams cleaning both home and industrial areas with a myriad of machines, "deep down dust" is just a marketing tool phrase that Hoover et al of its rivals have continually used to sell their machines. Even Miele use similar promises with their air driven turbo brush and some would argue on here that the STB 205 doesn't go deep enough.

 

As consumers, we are promised this and that and the "deep down dirt" removal isn't exactly an easy process we, as owners can judge unless you waste a bag each time to view the dirt collected!

 

It would be all very well if the dust that was "deep down" is actually being removed - but most of the time - and I found this is more apparent with Dyson's vacs with their 100% continuous suction, I began to realise that their machines are far more aggressive because they are often removing the actual carpet fibres. This is easy to test if you have strong coloured carpet as it can all be seen in the view bin. The machines are aggressive because of the strong suction, and when there's a brush roller used in tandem, it's possible to wear a carpet out if you need to clean carpets daily - and far more damage can incur compared to a conventional bagged vacuum.

 

Of course, Dyson had little interest in carpet cleaning - his idea was to use a factory cyclone and make it smaller to maintain suction instead of putting up with a clogged dust bag or continually having to buy bags with conventional vacuums. You have to bear in mind, Dyson didn't want to become a vacuum cleaner brand, but rather remain as an inventor and designer, cue the wheelbarrow ball idea and the ranges of appliances, Dyson has since done.


Post# 195990 , Reply# 51   8/18/2012 at 11:20 (2,790 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I could not have written that better myself.

Post# 196161 , Reply# 52   8/19/2012 at 11:03 (2,789 days old) by alexhoovers94 (Manchester UK)        
True

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Although I don't get were he got the idea of vacuum bags clogging, as at the time people had dirty air vacuums like Mr Dyson himself, Hoover Junior now I have never noticed with all dirty air machines the performace barely changes untill the bag is packed full or if you pick up lots of flour or something of that sort.

It made me laugh when I saw an interveiw with James Dyson, discussing his first Dyson cleaner, he said "we got it going entirly on the basis, of that, it worked better, so people who bought it and brave enough to buy it and you took it home, then they told other people about it, they would say, I bought this thing, I have never heard of Dyson before, but I bought this stange looking machine and it is brilliant, it cleaned my house like like it had never been cleaned before."

Now that was a lie!


Post# 196162 , Reply# 53   8/19/2012 at 11:11 (2,789 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Actually, I must suggest that part is true. A good deal of people did buy them solely on the basis that Mrs Nextdoor had just taken delivery of hers. That is people for you.

Post# 196168 , Reply# 54   8/19/2012 at 11:55 (2,789 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I think the part Alex saw as a lie was the bit where it stated your house had been cleaned like it had never been before.

I totally agree with dirty fans having close to peak suction until the bag requires replacement.


Post# 196172 , Reply# 55   8/19/2012 at 12:14 (2,789 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well that again is quite possible. You see, although the DC02 cylinder did not go on sale until a couple of years after the DC01 upright, it was never the less on sale long before those halcyon days of the later 1990's when Dyson sales climbed up & up & up. Now, despite a choice of upright or cylinder, the upright was always the most popular, even amongst those who'd always has cylinders. Can you imagine the faces of those people when they vacuum for the first time with an upright see-through cleaner? The DC01 would remove so much dirt which the user didn't know they had, and they could see this. So in that sense, homes may well have been given a clean to a standard never known before.

Even people who'd had uprights before were impressed with what they saw in the Dyson tank. Then, the over-excited new Dyson owner would often begin a crusade of the home, looking for dirt and giving the place a good clean. So again, homes may have been cleaner because of that.

Dirty fan cleaners are no different from clean fan when it comes to losing power as the bag fills, as the principle of the air needing a good flow with a good entry and exit point remains the same. Maybe it is just how it feels, maybe it feels like they lose less power. Certainly I always thought they lost power as the bag filled.


Post# 196176 , Reply# 56   8/19/2012 at 12:24 (2,789 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Alex - the whole point of where Dyson got the dust bag from clogging is simply from his own experience - and its possible that you have missed that info as it is in Dyson's book. He ran out of Hoover dust bags for his Junior model, couldn't get any at the time and ended up using the dust bag again, to which point the vacuum cleaner couldn't handle the amount of dust required to fill the bag because of the clogged pores. Let's not forget Hoover went to great lengths to suggest that their dust bags were "reusable" even if we all know by now that it meant the dust bag could be used a second time after it had been shaken free of dust. Most owners however didn't know this at the time and forever used the paper dust bag a third or fourth time if it was possible. 


Post# 196186 , Reply# 57   8/19/2012 at 14:20 (2,789 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

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Yes, Jamie is correct, I did mean the last part where he said "it cleaned my house like I never had it cleaned before" and after what I just read from Benny's post (further up) I can understand what James Dyson may of meant, I think I just took it the wrong way.

I do disagree with you though Benny in that you said the clean and dirty air cleaners loose performance equally.
A clean air machine has to pull the airflow threw the dirt and dust inside the bag to get to the filter and then to the motor, where as in a dirty air machine the dust and dirt is being compacted down at the bottom, and all the top of the bag space is left for air to escape freely.
Yes the pores of the bag do clog and I am not saying in a dirty air you loose no performance, you will loose a little, but your suction should stay pretty much optimal until the bag is full, or like I said before, if you suck up lots and lots of fine powdery or dusty particles.


Post# 196194 , Reply# 58   8/19/2012 at 15:03 (2,789 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hello Alex. Well yes, I was thinking about how the fine, powdery dust is sprayed around the dustbag and lines it...as you say, there is a larger part at the top which is free when dust is compacted to the bottom of the bag. Though in all cleaners, the design of the bag compartment makes a good deal of difference. Old cylinder cleaners which are long in shape were designed so that the dirt was spun out to the walls of the cloth dust bag, leaving a long hollow through the centre for air to flow. That all but disappeared when squarer containers became the norm.

Post# 196333 , Reply# 59   8/20/2012 at 16:33 (2,788 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Alex - sorry but I just don't agree with you regarding dirty fan vac bags and clean air bags. I think it has a lot to do with the bag's design as Benny says and the way in which it is positioned - and nowadays the added filtration layers that brands fit into the bags.

 

For example, I know my Electrolux Z517 was a clean air machine and the bag filled from the top to the bottom, but inadvertently the dust always seemed to stick at the top by the cardboard sleeve holder - the strongest part of the dust bag where it hang locks onto the top of the locks.

 

I found Hoover's dust bags in the Junior and Senior were a law unto themselves depending on the Junior's model at the time like the U1012 with the top fill hose and latterly same with the U1104. The dust didn't always get deposited to the bottom of the bags. With the bottom fill bags, I used to find that new dust bags would often have dust in the middle, just above the main dust channel and eventually the dust would be pushed to the bottom as the force of more dust would eventually push through to fill the entire bag.

 

The dust bags in the Oreck XL (dirty fan) are far more efficient and better designed though and I found that they filled to the bottom - but never quite as full to the fullest maximum that Oreck suggested.

 

The only system that I've seen where dust gets properly chucked to the bottom of the dust bag and is able to fill to the top with dust is with clean air vacs like Sebo's uprights. 

 

 

 

 


Post# 196458 , Reply# 60   8/21/2012 at 05:39 (2,788 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I can definitely agree with what you said Ryan about the Electrolux 500-Series filling from top to bottom, as my 502S does that all the time.

Post# 196460 , Reply# 61   8/21/2012 at 05:43 (2,788 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Personally Jamie, I think you should buy a Sebo X1 Automatic.


Post# 196472 , Reply# 62   8/21/2012 at 07:28 (2,788 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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If I can buy it with Monopoly money, I will.

Incidentally I shall be going to the Job Centre in about an hour to look at the available jobs and God Willing, find something, although that is unlikely as even people with Degrees are finding it nigh on impossible to get work these days.


Post# 196476 , Reply# 63   8/21/2012 at 07:32 (2,787 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

The fact that people have degrees does not mean they are qualified to do a job as old fashioned social skills and basic manners are being phased out now, even though both are still needed. Don't let the fact that graduates are not able to find work put you off. You have already shown you have a near perfect grasp of the written English and at your age there is much time to tweak your social skills. Indeed you probably have a good deal more than your peers.


Post# 196478 , Reply# 64   8/21/2012 at 07:34 (2,787 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Thank you Benny, that means a lot.

Post# 196479 , Reply# 65   8/21/2012 at 07:36 (2,787 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

You are welcome. Best of luck.

Post# 196515 , Reply# 66   8/21/2012 at 11:09 (2,787 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        
although that is unlikely as even people with Degrees are fi

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Jamie, I work in HR and know a lot about how recruitment works.

 

The problem we're facing, is that these days, so many people have degrees - a lot of them are pointless. It's all well and good if you want to be a doctor or teacher or something that requires a lot of hard work and the right qualifications. But in your everyday office roles and less specific roles, it makes no difference. My office is full of media, music and psychology graduates all doing the same job as me, and I have no qualifications at all aside from GCSE's. There is no degree in the world that counts of common sense. You could have all the text-book smarts in the world but still not be able to figure out your arse from your elbow.

A degree used to be something that only the very intellegent and often the more wealthy people had. I'm all for equal opportunities, but now that everyone has a degree, they're not respected like they used to be.

 

A lot of uni graduates are coming into job interviews and talking about their degrees - we don't want to know. We don't care. Your degree doesn't mean you're capable of doing the job. We want to KNOW that you can do it. Employers these days are using more competance based interviews, where they ask for a specific example of something that you have done that fits the criteria they are looking for (the criteria is usually given to you before the interview to give you time to prepare). That way, you can demonstrate that you are fully competant and can be trained to do the job required.

 

As long as you can prove to an employer that you have the skills to do the role they require with the appropriate training, you'll be fine.


Post# 196520 , Reply# 67   8/21/2012 at 12:31 (2,787 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Well at the last moment I discovered that the jobs I'd be browsing at the Job Centre could be seen on the Direct Gov website so I decided to go on it and check the listings instead.

There was one listing (added today) for a cleaner required in a town 15 miles away so I telephoned them but there was no answer.

I'll call back again tomorrow and if they answer, I'll apply.

A cleaning job would be perfect for me as I'm good at vacuuming (really ?), dusting and just all-round cleaning.


Post# 196523 , Reply# 68   8/21/2012 at 12:46 (2,787 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Just tell them you own more vacuum cleaners than Kim and Aggie put together lol. Also ask if you can use your own Ranger to do the cleaning and explain the benefits of dirty fan cleaners - they will be so impressed with your knowledge they will give you the job!
Here's to the Hoover Ranger - the greatest vac in the world (According to James Murray)



Post# 196526 , Reply# 69   8/21/2012 at 12:48 (2,787 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Better not let my Ranger see what you just said, it may become big headed like its owner...

That is where you say "of course not!" by the way.


Post# 196589 , Reply# 70   8/21/2012 at 17:42 (2,787 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

The chances are that the person interviewing you won't be as bothered about your cleaning skills as much as they are your promise to turn up and that you are legally allowed to work in the UK.

Post# 196649 , Reply# 71   8/22/2012 at 03:21 (2,787 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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That is the sad truth of it Benny.

Post# 199561 , Reply# 72   9/6/2012 at 09:57 (2,771 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Did you ever get that job interview as a cleaner Jamie? hows the job searching going, you must be desperate for a job to be able to buy more vacs?

Post# 199570 , Reply# 73   9/6/2012 at 11:11 (2,771 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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No I didn't unfortunately, but I'm still searching everyday.

It isn't just vacuums I need money for now though, I've recently re-lit (pardon the pun) my passion for incense so I need money to buy more of that!


Post# 199596 , Reply# 74   9/6/2012 at 12:26 (2,771 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

Incense jamie? say - are turning into a Hippy? growing the hair, 70's hoovers - next thing you'll be wanting a VW camper van lol

Post# 199600 , Reply# 75   9/6/2012 at 12:40 (2,771 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Ha ha, nah I just like the smell (lavender is my favourite) and the relaxing properties. Might light up another stick this evening.

Post# 199607 , Reply# 76   9/6/2012 at 13:04 (2,771 days old) by madabouthoovers ()        

I put several drops of those scented oils on the filter in my Henry, it works wonders whenver I hoover with it - Wilkos have a good range of these oils, and I recommend it for bagged cleaners - its Honeysuckle in the Henry at the moment!

Post# 199612 , Reply# 77   9/6/2012 at 13:12 (2,771 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Well tomorrow I'll be buying a whole lot of incense sticks, there is a deal on eBay at the moment that a seller is doing where if you buy 4 sets of 20 incense sticks you get a free set, plus there is a holder thrown in.

I will buy that!





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