Thread Number: 17809
Fair Test?
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Post# 193358   8/5/2012 at 13:55 (2,802 days old) by ned_flanders ()        

I recently came upon this video and was surprised by the results. Do you think it's a fair test? Why or why not?

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Post# 193362 , Reply# 1   8/5/2012 at 14:38 (2,802 days old) by Brandon_W_T ()        

It is an entirely fair test... They just don't finish it out by using the miele after the kirby.


ANY vacuum cleaner will do that. If they vacuum 20x with the kirby, and then pull the miele over again, it would have the same results. A vacuum will never clean a rug 100%.


Post# 193382 , Reply# 2   8/5/2012 at 16:38 (2,802 days old) by FantomLightning (Ohio)        

Plus the Miele probably needs a new bag and filter too.

Post# 193399 , Reply# 3   8/5/2012 at 18:21 (2,802 days old) by director12 ()        

All Miele parts tend to not be cheap.

Post# 193417 , Reply# 4   8/5/2012 at 21:26 (2,802 days old) by FantomLightning (Ohio)        
Well...

When you pay 700+ for a machine you should be prepared to maintain it...

Post# 193441 , Reply# 5   8/5/2012 at 22:50 (2,802 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

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It's accurate.
As Brandon said no machine is 100% efficient, and she was going very slowly.
However, you will always find more dirt with a Kirby. That was a light weight, thin pile carpet. The Kirby was able to pull it up and move air under it. This is Kirby's triple cushion vibration at work.


Post# 193447 , Reply# 6   8/5/2012 at 23:16 (2,802 days old) by FantomLightning (Ohio)        

No offense... But before we jump on the "Kirby, nothing else is better..." thing lets revisit this. Same principle that Hoover came up with and popularized that Eureka has always done better. But again every situation varies.

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Post# 193449 , Reply# 7   8/5/2012 at 23:24 (2,802 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)        

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That Miele is a new model but it needs a cleaning. Clean the agitator housing, pull the strings off the brushroll. I want to see how the bag and filters look. Also there are 2 switches on the handle. I think those Mieles are similar to the Riccar Tandem air system? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The Riccar Tandem air system uses direct and clean air design fan systems. Two different suction systems for dirt removal and the agitation shown in some youtube videos of the Riccars look phenomenal.

That Kirby inside is brand new/ spotless, and no bag installed so it has full airflow capacity.


Post# 193462 , Reply# 8   8/6/2012 at 00:42 (2,802 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

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Zach,
There is a difference from this video, and the "test" your friend Eric did.
This video directly followed on the same day, whereas, Eric's test was a week of this then that test. There are may variables that can come into play from the amount of traffic to the relative humidity.

I know you were trying to put me in my place, but in this case the Kirby is a direct air machine with greater airflow. And yes, I admit, read my screen name I am biased and admit it. But I have been in the homes when Ladies have cried, not with a dirt pad that is roughly what six square inches which takes approximately a teaspoon of dirt to look full. This was done with a full size Baird meter and it was full.

Also, I stated that I was in agreement with Brandon that no machine (Including Kirby) was 100% effective.

Do the sand test yourself. Go out to the sandbox, or if not available take a pound of plain table salt. Pour it into the carpet. Now you have a measurable amount of what went in. Now run each vacuum and see how much each pulls out. Again this is able to be weighed and measured instead of a subjective--look at this. I again will state the Kirby will be able to hold it's own.


Post# 193463 , Reply# 9   8/6/2012 at 00:49 (2,802 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Brandon is right No machine will clean a carpet through one hundred percent. I once went up against a Kirby in a demo with this situation, so I asked the guy to put a clean pad in and vacuum the area again and wow the pad was dirty. So I said If your machine cleans so well why did it leave all the dirt behind. The guy was stumped.

A friend owns a Kirby dealership here and he told me that they have stopped doing this test because the husband ( who is not wanting to spend a fortune on a vacuum ) will often take there Bag less Electrolux or Bissell empty it out and then vacuum the area were the Kirby has Just been and pull out loads of dirt.

This is a cheap nasty TRICK that has been used for years to Scare housewives. Put that devise on the Miele and you will get the same result. I own both those machines and they are both very good vacuums


Post# 193518 , Reply# 10   8/6/2012 at 12:37 (2,801 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

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The rule usually goes "The one who goes first is the looser."


Post# 193522 , Reply# 11   8/6/2012 at 13:30 (2,801 days old) by Trebor ()        
The side by side comparison test

was devised by Kirby to prove definitively that the Kirby can get all the dirt. After vacuuming until the Kirby can pull no more dirt

3 stokes forward and back = 1 day of cleaning, count the number of days of cleaning. Do 100+ strokes with the other cleaner, then pull dirt with the Kirby.  If the Kirby is used to remove all the dirt, and the dirt container of the bagless is clean, the bagless unit cannot pull up any dirt. The problem is the SxS test is complicated, the verbiage has to be just right, and the closing questions have to be asked at the right points in the presentation. Most Kirby dealers are not intelligent enough to master the test. I know, I trained for Kirby distributors.  But, if you can master the SxS comparison, the presentation results in high closing percentage, and high dollar sales.


Post# 193534 , Reply# 12   8/6/2012 at 15:01 (2,801 days old) by joshdonnell ()        
Its

Not a fair test.

Post# 193562 , Reply# 13   8/6/2012 at 16:35 (2,801 days old) by FantomLightning (Ohio)        
I...

Wasn't tying to "put you in your place" I just highly dislike the insane amount of bias towards Kirby on this forum. I admit that Kirby is an amazing machine but price and everything taken into consideration there are better machines than Kirby.

Post# 193609 , Reply# 14   8/6/2012 at 18:35 (2,801 days old) by director12 ()        

I'm betting Miele, Bissell, any Hoover Elite you have, or even your Kenmores and Fantoms can outclean a Kirby any day, even your grandmother's Heritage II from 1985.

Post# 193615 , Reply# 15   8/6/2012 at 20:05 (2,801 days old) by Trebor ()        
Director 12...

That's rather an unequivocal blanket statement you made.  As many have stated before, the condition of the machine, and the type of carpet, and the kind of dirt all influence the outcome.

 

Josh Donnell, are you referring to the test against the Miele in the video, or the complete side by side comparison test?  If the latter, do you understand precisely how the S x S is done?  Do you mean it is unfair because the customer's machine is not new?

The point is to show the customer's machine is ineffective, and the S x S can remove all the dirt in the test area.  The dirt meter uses new filters every 3 seconds. Is that what you are saying is unfair? The Kirby is a very effective vacuum. I know there are things equal to or better, but I don't think a Hoover Elite or a Bissell is one of them, not long term.  I am not as fond of Kirbys as I used to be because of the weight and the complicated switchover.  Vacuum collectors LIKE the process of setting up for different operations, the average person who just wants to clean their home sees it differently.

 

A Rainbow is probably the best dirt pulling machine over the long term if it is properly maintained because of the consistent constant airflow.


Post# 193622 , Reply# 16   8/6/2012 at 20:36 (2,801 days old) by joshdonnell ()        
Sp

So are you saying miele's cant pull as much as a kirby? How about a Hyla

Post# 193624 , Reply# 17   8/6/2012 at 21:00 (2,801 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Thing is...people - as collectors we can discuss until the cows come home, the differences between tandem air, clean air and dirty fan air - we can argue that Kirby is better than Miele and in some respects I feel it is a unfair judgement - having used both I'd hazard that whilst the Miele is a far more modern vacuum, I'd probably go for the Kirby because I know that I would be buying quality but not at the prices that the UK sell them at!

 

But end of the day buyers aren't going to know unless they are clued up. When someone sees a video like that at an online site, they'll automatically think that the Kirby does a good job. It's the usual Kirby trick - we had that too when we had a demo many years ago; but my parents weren't embarrassed by the dirt that our old Hoover Junior left behind; my father being the pragmatist and economist in the family put the Kirby salesman out of his misery - when all things considered, at the end of the day when you have a busy day job, you don't have time to wheel out something as big as a Kirby when a compact machine like Hoover's Junior will suffice. My father's opinion was that if the dirt can't be seen on the carpet, then the carpet is clean. 

 

But it also depends on the actual person at the time who is getting the demo - whether they are prepared to put up with what kind of dirt is left behind or the dirt that they can actually see that their own vacuum is picking up and what it is leaving behind. Tie that in with doing the opposite - using the Kirby FIRST and then the Miele and you'd probably find that the Miele picks up what the Kirby leaves behind - it isn't really a fair set up of showing a machine verses another, because there are other variables to take into consideration, not just what Trebor suggests here but also for the fact that just because you can't see the dirt in the bag, doesn't mean it isn't there. 

 


Post# 193663 , Reply# 18   8/7/2012 at 00:51 (2,801 days old) by Trebor ()        
My point about

the side by side test was that you actually can get all the dirt out with a Kirby and a dirt meter, then clean next to it with something else the same or more strokes, and pull dirt behind that with the Kirby. Fair?  Depends on how you look at it. Unless you use and maintain the Kirby properly, one can do the same test, even with another Kirby later.

 

Hyla and the rest of the water filtration vacs with separators are probably pretty evenly matched if the nozzles and hoses are in good shape.


Post# 193678 , Reply# 19   8/7/2012 at 02:25 (2,801 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

the S by S tests and dirtmeter tests have been used by other DTD vacuum companies besides Kirby.Lets see---TriStar,(I have the transparent lid-dirtmeter for a TriStar)Filter Queen(I have a dirtmeter for a FQ in a training kit I bought from the former FQ dealer)Rainbow(Use the water bin as a dirtmeter)and just about any of the others--the factor is--let the prospect use his old,worn out belted vacuum against the brand new out of the box DTD machine.right off we can only guess which machine will do better---BINGO!!!the prospect buys the new DTD machine.If the belt,rollerbrush, bag,and filters were replaced in the prospects old cleaner-then the results would be different.

Post# 193690 , Reply# 20   8/7/2012 at 06:15 (2,801 days old) by Trebor ()        
The results would be different...

no question. But don't forget, if going against a canister machine, all the suction seals and the hose would need to be replaced as well.  The direct-air machine with rug-lifting capability is far more easily and quickly restored to a level of dirt-removing prowess more like brand-new than any clean-air machine, whether one or two motor, canister or upright, but as the belt heats up and stretches, it loses it quickly. One absolutely HUGE factor in the dirt meter test is that the challenger with the dirt meter is used in 5 second bursts, and the belt never gets hot and stretches.  Even when the incumbent's belt is changed before the challenge, it is used continuously and heats up, with resultant stretch and loss of RPM. Even a small about of brush wear and loss of RPM off of peak is huge. It would be interesting to pit a NIB Kirby against a new Kirby that had seen 15 demonstrations. Enough curve on the bristles and stretch of the belt would have set in to make a difference, I'll bet


Post# 193691 , Reply# 21   8/7/2012 at 06:43 (2,801 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

The strange irony here is---most DTD vacuums are canisters.Kirby is the only current DTD vacuum now.And the salesman tries the new vacuum in an area where KNOWS there is dirt.and of course the disgusting-but effective dark pad in the dirtmeter test-vacuuming the prospects bed.while selling TriStars a few years ago--did the matteress test---and besides the white "skin ash" there were DUST MITES-the mass on the test pad was MOVING-did work in selling the vacuum!Yes in TYriStars did have to change brush belts on occasion.Bet same with Kirbys-if it had been in too many demos-the belt would have to be replaced.The roller brushes don't get enough wear here.-but you do have to clean the brush of hair,threads and such.A tipoff to the prospect the machine was used.He will INSIST on a lower price for it!Don't blame him!

Post# 193891 , Reply# 22   8/8/2012 at 15:33 (2,799 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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At the end of the day it comes down to convincing the customer and most times the customer is convinced. Whether they keep there new expensive vacuum is a different story.

I can only speak for my country , I just looked through our a few of our local on-line classifieds, 35 Kirby sentria's for sale 12 other older kirby models, 14 of the sentrias claim to be hardly used bought with in the past 6 months with slips to prove it.( I checked not the same customers ) This tells me one thing , That customers are easily wowed by the sales ticks but like many of my customers who have traded in one find it to cumber sum to use day to day. I have a commercial twin motor tank vacuum with a PN on it, It will not only out clean the kirby but suck it up too, I tried to make a separator tank for it using a 55g oil drum and it crushed it with its suction. Best yet I could by 4 of them for the price of One Kirby but its impossible to use and inconvenient.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how well it cleans when it is to much effort to use it, remember some people just don't enjoy vacuuming ( shocker )

One thing is did see aswell, you will battle to find any one selling there Rainbow, Miele, Dyson, Sebo or thermax. There was one of each for sale, all old models





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