Thread Number: 17070
Why Are Hard Cover Models TOL?
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Post# 182723   5/27/2012 at 14:18 (2,964 days old) by bagintheback (Flagstaff, Arizona)        

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I know that with at least with Hoover and Eureka, both companies would always place hard-cover bagged models higher up on their product line, along with a higher price, than the soft cover models. I personally find the soft cover bags to be more attractive and seem to allow the bag to fill up further, but apparently the designers think otherwise. Any idea as to why this is?




Post# 182727 , Reply# 1   5/27/2012 at 14:26 (2,964 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

It's simple, it's psychology, higher prices to some easily influenced people indicates better quality, so they'll pay the extra to get something they think is superior, regardless of the facts & figures....

Post# 182728 , Reply# 2   5/27/2012 at 14:32 (2,964 days old) by Alexhoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

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I would probably say because of times changeing, it is more stylish these days and even in the mid to late 90's to have a bagged vacuum holding the bag in a hard plastic box than a soft outer bag that probably to most people looks old fashioned, it is probably also because of higher filteration, you can get heppa filters that can be replaced easier in a hard bag vacuum rather than haveing to wash and outer permenant bag that really is only material it is not really a filter.
But I totally agree soft bag vacuum cleaners do look alot nicer and let the inner bag get a little fuller. I just love pressing a soft bag and hearing the paper bag inside crumple, that is one of the things I love about them :)


Post# 182729 , Reply# 3   5/27/2012 at 14:40 (2,964 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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I prefer the cloth outer bag especially the front mounted ones, probibly because they are very rare here in SA


Post# 182730 , Reply# 4   5/27/2012 at 14:48 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well in the UK the hard box cleaners were superior. There were no two ways about that. Hard bag (hard case) cleaners appeared more modern, they looked sleek, and were usually far easier to fit paper bags to than the soft bag cleaners on sale at the same time, many of which used a rubber ring to attach the paper bag to the dust tube. Also, they were often easier to clean out, particularly if a dust bag had burst, as all that was usually needed was a damp cloth, unlike on a soft bag which would retain the filth in the weave of the outer bag. Furthermore, the physical nature of the hard bag cleaner gave way to having cord winders, air fresheners, electronic power controls, carrying handles, bag full indicators, and later still on board tools fitted into them. This was mostly, though not always, impossible on a soft bag cleaner, and of those soft bag machines which packed such a feature or two, many had a hard plastic compartment to it in addition to a soft bag.

Although soft outer bags were seen as old fashioned and dated by a good deal of people, manufacturers did recognise quite strongly that they were still in demand amongst several consumers, typically the older consumer who liked and identified easily with the traditional soft bag, and those who required a physically lighter cleaner, and, because the price of a soft bag cleaner was usually lower, it also appealed to budget consumers too. So much so that during the early 1980's, Electrolux brought out it's first ever soft bag upright cleaner, bearing in mind that they'd been producing hard bag cleaners for about 15 years already.

When the Hoover Turbopower cleaners went on sale in the early 1980's, there were two soft bag cleaners included in the range and furthermore were still on sale under the name Junior almost 20 years later. In terms of cleaning performance, the soft bag Turbopower machines did not differ from the hard bag versions, it was only features and styling which put them into their own category, ticking all three of the boxes I mentioned earlier.



Post# 182738 , Reply# 5   5/27/2012 at 15:14 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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"I just love pressing a soft bag and hearing the paper bag inside crumple" That's nothing compared to spinning a brush roll by hand... Mmm...

Wow we're strange, ha ha!


Post# 182742 , Reply# 6   5/27/2012 at 16:00 (2,964 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Vinatge repairer 

 

We had a Electrolux soft bag model , the 404 with a rear mounted soft bag in the late 70's and early eighties It was as I have discovered unique to SA. My grandmother had one , I only have a pic of the Columbus version of the machine taken in a friends vac shop.

 

Electrolux versions had a yellow hood with a brown bag and the Electrolux logo embossed all over the bag  


Post# 182744 , Reply# 7   5/27/2012 at 16:08 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hello Gary. My word, what a cheerful cleaner that was! I must correct myself by saying that Electrolux had commercial soft bag cleaners on sale here, but I was referring to the domestic market in my original thinking.

I also forgot to say that it is of course impossible for a clean fan vacuum cleaner to have a soft bag as we know it. Clean fan machines have often been considered superior to the dirty fan style. There wouldn't have been anything to stop it having one wrapped around the hard casing, like the Sebo Felix does, or one just for show, but it would have served no practical purpose.


Post# 182745 , Reply# 8   5/27/2012 at 16:16 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Going slightly off topic, I wonder what would have the best filtration, a dirty fan with a HEPA bag or a clean fan with a HEPA filter...



Post# 182746 , Reply# 9   5/27/2012 at 16:28 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

If you believe that a HEPA filter does what it says, then both should be just as good as each other. Good question you asked there though. Fact of the matter was that hardly any dirty fan machines had filters, I think the Electrolux 152 would have been one of the first. Although a popular selling point on cylinders, filtration seemed to play little or no part in the selling and choosing of uprights. Some people argue that a soft bag machine offered a layer of filtration which a dirty fan hard bag didn't. I am not sure I agree or disagree, but I see the logic.

Post# 182751 , Reply# 10   5/27/2012 at 16:41 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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It's a "100% Extra Free" can of worms to say the least!

Post# 182752 , Reply# 11   5/27/2012 at 16:44 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Sorry?I don't understand that.

Post# 182755 , Reply# 12   5/27/2012 at 16:46 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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It's a very big can of worms to open! :)

Post# 182773 , Reply# 13   5/27/2012 at 17:21 (2,964 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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Vintagerepairer

 

The columbus one was the commercial version and the Electrolux version was domestic, this was pre 500 series and SA was very big upright country back then, the 152 series was available but could not compete against the Hoover rangers of the day so the developed this machine locally. the bag on this one pictured was made by the store owner and not original. 

 

I have only seen a few and for nostalgic reasons the Electrolux one is the one vacuum I really want but don't have. My Gran lived a fair distance away so we always went there on holiday so it was good times, I managed to get her other vacuum a green hoover sensitronic from the late 80's  


Post# 182779 , Reply# 14   5/27/2012 at 17:34 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Hello Gary, thank you again for that. I do enjoy your messages. I think the maturity shines through.

Post# 182787 , Reply# 15   5/27/2012 at 17:58 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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"I think the maturity shines through." Well I'd hope so at 32 years of age! Maybe that isn't what you meant though ?

Post# 182789 , Reply# 16   5/27/2012 at 18:01 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

It's exactly what I meant. One thing I did learn when I got the internet is that no matter what the age of the people involved, maturity and reason often goes right out of the window. One doesn't have to venture far to see that.

Post# 182794 , Reply# 17   5/27/2012 at 18:09 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I see your point Benny, there are a lot of adults on the internet without a flicker of maturity.

Most of the people on Vacuum Land have that gift, thank goodness, your good self included of course.


Post# 182797 , Reply# 18   5/27/2012 at 18:12 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I thank you for the compliment. You also credit the forum most generously. Like I said about the soft bags on dirty fan cleaners being capable of offering an extra layer of filtration, I am not sure if I agree or disagree.

Post# 182804 , Reply# 19   5/27/2012 at 18:41 (2,964 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
One thing that made me think dirty fans might give better filtration was due the fact the dirt is blown into the bag at a lower pressure than a clean fan, where it is sucked in at high pressure. So, to me, that signifies that the higher pressure of which the dirt is sucked into the bag of a clean fan Vacuum Cleaner would cause more dust to get past the bag.

I, of course, could and very well may be wrong about this however.


Post# 182808 , Reply# 20   5/27/2012 at 18:50 (2,964 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I miss read your earlier message, where I see now you speak of a HEPA bag in the dirty fan cleaner and a HEPA filter on the clean fan. But either way, if a HEPA is a recognised standard, it should make no difference to the outcome. A bit like I suppose travelling at 100mph in a car or on a push bike. 100mph would be the same in both, if such speeds could be achieved, even if there would be numerous differing factors involved.

I am now in two minds as to whether or not to delete this message for fear of Mr Murray attempting to cycle at 100mph simply to see what it would be like. I hope he gets on better than tapping out phone numbers. !!


Post# 182844 , Reply# 21   5/28/2012 at 05:36 (2,963 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I already tried that after watching ET - Didn't work...

Post# 182904 , Reply# 22   5/28/2012 at 14:15 (2,963 days old) by ned_flanders ()        

I think I prefer the soft bag too...and I remember thinking they were old-fashioned at one time. And I also think of the Dyson commerical guy talk about how as kids they would 'beat the bag and the dust would fly out'. To me the obvious answer is that the hard shell vacs appear more modern, and leads to more electronic additions and onboard attachments. My Kirby doesn't have a bag check indicator, dirt finder sensor, or onboard attachments...but it's TOL for a different reason.

Unless you have a really good hard plastic vacuum with self-sealing bags, you're going to get dust and dirt in the bag compartment...and I can't just throw that in the wash like I can with a sturdy cloth bag. The bag compartment on the canister vac back home is so small (and the inside bag is hard to remove when it's very full), I can see why you can get more dirt in the soft bag models.





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