Thread Number: 16682
Are Eco-labelled Vacuum Cleaners Worth the Extra Cash brands are selling?
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Post# 177912   4/21/2012 at 23:06 (2,909 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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It suddenly dawned on me recently the cost price of a Miele S6 Ecoline. Now, this is a model that Miele claim offers the performance of their 2000 watt vacuum but last I looked the base S6 cost 149-99 compared to the S6 Ecoline that cost 179-99 which has a 1200 watt motor. In terms of pricing and cost, are Eco-labelled vacuums really worth the extra cost?

I personally think its a big marketing excuse and ironic, since Miele vacs from the 1970s into the 1980s had 1300 watts anyway and relied on the brown paper dust bags compared to the current FJM/GN bags the machines now use. Also, vacuum cleaners in general are hardly going to burn a hole in your electricity bill - an electric ceramic hob for example can use 3000 watts to power up and if you use that every day, then clearly its more powerful than a vacuum cleaner.





Post# 177949 , Reply# 1   4/22/2012 at 05:25 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I'm all for lowering the wattage of motors if possible, as I hate high wattage screamers, but for an extra price... Hmm, that's a bit cheeky if you ask me.

As for the energy saving - I'm with you on the fact that a Vacuum Cleaner, for the time it is in use, is never going to make a big difference to your utility bill.

It is the same with the new Henry Eco, what is the point of it ?

It is all a marketing ploy as far as I'm concerned.

If something is branded "Eco", people will think they are doing good for the environment by buying it and therefore will be more inclined to do just that.


Post# 177960 , Reply# 2   4/22/2012 at 07:37 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Sebo fan is quite right that its a ploy, because all the makers are doing is making a cleaner the same wattage as they did 15 years ago and calling it 'eco'. The country is eco mad and that is what sells.

However, the Numatic cleaners, this is where I beg to differ as they do actually do something. They already use what is now considered to be a low wattage motor, and their cleaners will not start on full power any more. They use round about half the wattage from what I have been reading. This encourages the user to use the lower setting, particularly with the current fashion of hard flooring, as high suction is not needed. Not forgetting that Numatic have a massive hold on the commercial cleaning market, and the low-power low-noise eco setting on their machines suits both the type of low-pile carpets being cleaned, and the busy environments in which they are used. Of all the eco-saving products on sale today, the Numatic is one I do go along with.


Post# 177961 , Reply# 3   4/22/2012 at 07:41 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I have to say though that high-wattage cleaners will add to the electricity bill in the same way that anything of that wattage would. What it comes down to is how long the appliance is in use for. If someone vacuumed daily for half an hour (even if that was stop-start cleaning) with a 2000 watt vacuum cleaner, that will soon add up. You'd be looking around 20p a day as a very, very rough calculation.

Post# 177962 , Reply# 4   4/22/2012 at 07:43 (2,909 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

It's what is known as "greenwash", coming up with something, then slapping an "Eco friendly" logo on it to appeal to those who think they're saving he planet, when in reality they're just as bad as the "non-eco" models, just look at the Toyota Prius, that has an engine that burns just as much fuel as any other car, but because they slapped a set of electric motors on it and highly toxic lithium batteries into it, they can call it "eco-friendly", when it's about as eco friendly as a '67 Ford Mustang and a lot less fun...

The greenest thing you can do with any product is look after it and don't throw it out when it snaps a belt or breaks a fan blade, THAT is being eco-friendly, Reduce, Reuse, Recycle (and Repair)...


Post# 177966 , Reply# 5   4/22/2012 at 07:47 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

If you can get someone to mend it, and for a price which is less that the stupid selling prices of new stock, that is a great idea.

Post# 177970 , Reply# 6   4/22/2012 at 08:04 (2,909 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"If you can get someone to mend it"

Or even better, fix it yourself, there's nothing more satisfying than successfully repairing, or even making, something by yourself, especially when it saves you money and the grief of having to transport things about to take them to repair shops... :)

Post# 177972 , Reply# 7   4/22/2012 at 08:16 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Yes, but sadly who knows how to do such things today? Not many. I only know because someone showed me how to mend vacuums. I wouldn't have much idea about many other appliances.

Post# 177973 , Reply# 8   4/22/2012 at 08:18 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Of course, just to add, the money-saving aspect comes at a cost of taking up ones time. There are a good deal of people who would rather do something they enjoy more, or even do extra paid work, and pay to get a problem sorted out for them.

Post# 177978 , Reply# 9   4/22/2012 at 08:28 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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That is something I hate about new Numatics - They start on the Lo setting.

I much prefer the Henry that I have with the rocker switches.

If I want to start on Lo, I'LL SELECT LO! Don't force things on me!


Post# 177980 , Reply# 10   4/22/2012 at 08:38 (2,909 days old) by turbomaster1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        

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That is something I LOVE about new Numatics - They start on the Lo setting.

I much prefer the Henry that I have with the rocker switches.

If I want to start on Hi I'LL SELECT HI! Don't force things on me!


Post# 177981 , Reply# 11   4/22/2012 at 08:39 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well that's the point, they are forcing on the user, because as I said, the suction power of the cleaner is enough for so many tasks. It's not life or death, nor is it hard to press two switches instead of one. I like your passion though. One can only wonder what you're like on politics!


Post# 177984 , Reply# 12   4/22/2012 at 09:00 (2,909 days old) by Trebor ()        
What Eco never considers...

What happens to the old product, whether working or not?

 

What about the packaging and shipping of the new product to get it to the end user?

 

"It cost $100.00 to save 10 cents! Let's do it now, Let's do more of it! Let's destroy the planet in an attempt to save it!" the nonsensical cry of the eco-warrior idiots.


Post# 177985 , Reply# 13   4/22/2012 at 09:02 (2,909 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"Yes, but sadly who knows how to do such things today?&#

That's where the problem lies, 100 years ago, if you broke something, you fixed it, today, if you break something, you throw it out and buy a new one, people 100 years ago were a lot more intelligent and much more caring about the property they worked hard to buy, these days people complain about not having enough money, but, they'd save a lot by taking on the mentality of those 100 years ago, and not piddling away money on things that are outmoded the moment you press "Enter" on the Chip & Pin card reader at the till... :\

For me, I try my damnedest to fix things, my laptop for instance, it's ancient, it was new in 2003/2004, and these days it's so out-of-date most would just look at it and think "what a POS", but, it still works, it's running windows 7, it's had 3 keyboards, a new case, and broke 3 power supplies, but, it's saving me money by not having to buy a new laptop, it may not be the fastest, it may not be the prettiest, but it's working, and works well... :)

If I can't fix something, then yeah, I'll try and get rid, but not before I try and modify it to do something it wasn't designed for, saving the need to have things transported halfway across the globe just to satisfy my needs, and helps with boredom too.... :P


Post# 177986 , Reply# 14   4/22/2012 at 09:04 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Sadly, for most people, price wins.

Post# 177988 , Reply# 15   4/22/2012 at 10:09 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Something we agree on David!

I'm always banging on to people about how things are considered disposable these days, and everybody wants the newest item out.

Not me! If I can fix something, for example, a Vacuum Cleaner, I will, if I can't, I'll get somebody to fix it and if that can't be done, then I'll regretfully let it go to the carpet in the sky.

My desktop in the living room that I use 95% of the time is a 2008 Gigabyte Technologies computer which was built by the previous owner before being sold on for 25 brand new to myself back in '08. I know, what a bargain.

It has Windows 2000 installed on it and although it is now 12 years old, it still works brilliantly and I wouldn't trade it for Windows 7, 8, 9, or any other number they wish to release.

And the computer in question:


Post# 177989 , Reply# 16   4/22/2012 at 10:12 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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And the monitor I'm using with the computer ?

A 10 year old CRX CRT (try saying that after a few pints ha ha) 19 inch flat screen monitor which I picked up free from an advert in the local free paper. Win win.


Post# 177991 , Reply# 17   4/22/2012 at 10:12 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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By the way - Sorry for hijacking your thread!

Post# 177992 , Reply# 18   4/22/2012 at 10:14 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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A couple of corrections:

I meant CTX not CRX, and I forgot to rotate the picture of the desktop. Sorry!


Post# 177997 , Reply# 19   4/22/2012 at 10:33 (2,909 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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I agree with Rob RE: the low setting on the current Numatics. I use my Henry a fair bit, especially on laminate flooring and above floor cleaning and I never need to use the high setting, thus saving 600w of power.

I also agree that this country has gone completely mad on eco-ness and there is no need for it. If vacuums didn't have such ridiculously high motor wattage anyway, we wouldn't NEED Eco switches and such nonsense! We're now up to 2200w machines and it's ridiculous and unnecessary. Lets not forget, 25 years ago people were perfectly happy with 410w and a decent brushroll. I, for one, still am. Cylinders have always used more watts to generate higher suction to compensate for the lack of agitation, but look at something like the Hoover Sensotronic at 1000w and it's one of the highest performing cylinders I've ever used.

Here is my equivalent of an "eco vac"...410w and picks up more than most modern cleaners!



Post# 177998 , Reply# 20   4/22/2012 at 10:38 (2,909 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

Good lord!!! I remember those desktop cases from when I worked at a computer shop, though the ones we had in stock were black & silver I think.... :S

And I too have a CTX monitor (different and older model though, Time (remember them?) sold the same monitor under their name) sat atop an Olivetti M4 pentium75 desktop, though the CTX is on it's last legs as it likes to crack, fizz & pop, and despite my 4-Rs mentality, I refuse to touch the insides of CRTs as I've had one that hadn't been plugged in for months detonate a few components on me before now, almost blinding me in the process.... :S

Under the desk is my "proper" desktop, I forget the spec, but it's all built with used parts I bought for pennies (or was given), needs stripping down and rebuilding in another case though as the one it has is breaking apart... :P

And I like my old phones too... :P


Post# 178000 , Reply# 21   4/22/2012 at 11:01 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Not to mention the old PENCON 4-way extention slab.


Post# 178002 , Reply# 22   4/22/2012 at 11:09 (2,909 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

Nah, that's a WG 4-way... :P

Post# 178003 , Reply# 23   4/22/2012 at 11:12 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

WG, Volex, same company. The name PENCON was the name of the range and was embossed on the original moulded 13amp plug which these came with.

Post# 178004 , Reply# 24   4/22/2012 at 11:18 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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What age is your CTX David ? It looks like mid 90's, but I could be wrong.

I have a Philips 107 E Monitor for my Office PC, which is a Viglen Genie from 2006 (it is older than that, but was refurbished then so I consider it a 2006 machine) running Windows XP Professional, and the HDD has a total 7% of spare memory. I know, it is excruciating to load anything more than the calculator!

I also have a spare flat screen monitor which used to be used for the living room computer before I got the bigger CTX, which is a Samsung Syncmaster 755 DFX and works great, but is just sitting stagnant in a pile of rubbish in the spare room just now until one of my current monitors bites the dust then it will be used again.

Talking about excruciating - Dialing a mobile number on those old phones you have much be, eh ?

The oldest phone I own is a 1990's BT Corded which I got from my Grandfather a few years ago. Works great!

I think me and David would both agree - Old is the way to go!

As for 2200W Vacuum Cleaners, they are totally ridiculous.

My 1977 HOOVER Ranger uses 400W and cleans better than any high wattage motor you could make these days.

Why ? Because of dirty fan technology and a damn good brush roll!

If manufacturers want to make something really Eco, they should bring back dirty fans and beater bars, then they wouldn't need screaming motors to clean carpets. Anyone agree ?

So - My Eco Vacuum Cleaner (which is actually a lot more Eco than any other modern one which claims to be)


Post# 178005 , Reply# 25   4/22/2012 at 11:19 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Is that 98 you have on the CTX PC by the way ?

Post# 178006 , Reply# 26   4/22/2012 at 11:25 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Oh, and I thought I'd mention I have in my cupboard an old early 2000's DAN PC tower (do you remember that brand ?) which crashed and still isn't working 100%, but I honestly can't be bothered fixing it up so it has been sitting in the cupboard for over a year. Suits me down to the ground! The only use I'll ever have for it is to use the CPU fan for another computer if and when I need one.

I also have another PC which also crashed, but this one is a horizontal computer branded as "Centreprise", which I know nothing about, so if you do, feel free to fill me in!


Post# 178011 , Reply# 27   4/22/2012 at 11:43 (2,909 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

What is 'best' is a fusion of old-fashioned tried & trusted ideas and modern technology. That's what Numatic are doing.


Post# 178012 , Reply# 28   4/22/2012 at 11:44 (2,909 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Well it was until they started putting Eco things on it and making it start on Lo no matter what you decide.

I think they should have stayed with the rocker switches.


Post# 178013 , Reply# 29   4/22/2012 at 11:48 (2,909 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

All I know about the CTX monitor is it was bought in the 90's, it used to belong to the mother's ex who trashed both my very nice Compaq S710 CRTs, because they weren't his, so I took some of his stuff in payment... :P

The Olivetti desktop (under the CTX) has 98SE, yes, seeing how it wouldn't do too well with 2000, and 95 was a bit lacking, it does have one advantage though in the form of a PCI IDE controller card giving it the ability to have more than a 6GB hard drive (it has a 40GB fitted), the computer itself was made in 94 or 95, in Italy (meaning it's a miracle it still works!!), and I just use it occasionally for playing with my MIDI keyboard for making (or trying to) music... :)

Dialling on the rotary phones is pretty easy, yeah it takes longer with the usual 11-digit numbers we have in the UK, but it works, you just can't use touch-tone menus, but I hate those anyway so don't use them when I can... :P

The name DAN sounds familiar, but I can't say I ever worked on one, and Centerprise, never heard of them at all... :\


Post# 178014 , Reply# 30   4/22/2012 at 11:52 (2,908 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

"Well it was until they started putting Eco things on it and making it start on Lo no matter what you decide.

I think they should have stayed with the rocker switches."

Well the Numatic statistics say that the cleaners have been a real hit. I can understand totally that you don't like it, but I don't understand why you don't see why they've done it. As I said, its because so many tasks really need only the lower setting. It's not been designed for no reason (like a good many things are), it's been designed to encourage the use of lower power. Without it, some people would never think of using the low setting.



Post# 178015 , Reply# 31   4/22/2012 at 11:54 (2,908 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        
"the computer itself was made in 94 or 95, in Italy (mea

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Ha ha that gave me a good laugh.

My '93 Philips U800 was made in Italy and works great, so maybe their stuff is OK... Some of it anyway!

Talking of 98SE I actually have a 1997 Compaq Armada 4120 which runs 98SE every well, but some of the keys on the keyboard don't work so I have to use it with an external keyboard.


Post# 178016 , Reply# 32   4/22/2012 at 11:57 (2,908 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I see your point, but personally it would just pee me off having it decide what power to start at.

I like to feel in control of a machine, and when it makes its own decisions, I don't feel like I'm in control, if you know what I mean.


Post# 178019 , Reply# 33   4/22/2012 at 12:06 (2,908 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Well I can see where you are coming from, I can't empathise with it as I don't share your enthusiasm towards the issue (it's only a vacuum cleaner), but yes, I take your point. Though I note with interest your use of the word 'decide'; that's the thing with the new Numatic, the decision has been made already for the user. They have no choice but to use what it starts on, or boost the power should they wish to. It has a clear purpose, unlike other cleaners in the past, Electrolux for one, which started on a low setting but had a boost setting which lasted only a matter of seconds before reverting to the standard power.

Post# 178020 , Reply# 34   4/22/2012 at 12:10 (2,908 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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"Electrolux for one, which started on a low setting but had a boost setting which lasted only a matter of seconds before reverting to the standard power."

That would drive me insane!


Post# 178025 , Reply# 35   4/22/2012 at 12:19 (2,908 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

Yes, it would do me to, well, I say that, I mean if I needed the extra power. These cleaners were very short lived, it was the earliest versions of the Contour and Glider electronic machines, though I think some of the cylinders with hose mounted power controls may have had it too. It must have been either problematic or a poor selling feature, if not both, as Electrolux dropped the idea in favour of sliding power controls which could be left on full power if desired.

Post# 178029 , Reply# 36   4/22/2012 at 12:36 (2,908 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
Ahh, but they're not all the same...

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Well thanks for hijacking the thread with the computer nonsense - those are not the same as vacuums - because largely thanks to online and offline repairs, the blueprints and user manuals etc that then link into "how-to-sites" and constant upgrades and shops like Maplin allow users and owners to doll up their old systems as new. What doesn't work sometimes is that old update patches can only go so far if you want to match the same efficiency as newer computers.

As the ex-owner of an old Numatic James - the one with the fixed 800 watt suction - I have to say that I prefer the extra oomph Henry provides - right at the end of the dust bag before it really needs to be emptied although I used to notice early on or half way through a bag that James began to suffer with suction problems. It's good that the machines can now start in a lower suction mode, but I don't think it is a prerequisite to being "eco friendlier," when the highest rating has often been 1100 watts at the most on Numatic machines to the best of my knowledge, or even 1000 watts - hardly likely to induce electricity charges against a similar Hoover tub vacuum with 1400 watts or more. Sebo is the same with the X range - the original white upright had 850 watts, the grey and black increased to 1000 watts and current ranges have 1150 watts to the top machine that has 1300 watts. Compare that to your Miele S7 and you'll instantly see which one runs the more power.

Trebor - "what happens to the old product, whether working or not?" Well it comes back to an older thread I referred to before = cost of repair - fine if you are in the U.S where your country is much bigger than the U.K but I found it difficult to get some spares for machines I collected that did a great service for many years but because of their rarity, parts were difficult to source. A classic example is my old Moulinex Powerclean 1350 - a brilliant canister vacuum, made of thick plastics, great tubes and let down by a cord rewind system that couldn't be repaired unless I spent twice as much cash as it would have cost me on the machine alone to get the cord rewinder mechanism from France as well as ensure that the cord had a British plug on the end of it. The smaller cleaning tools were harder to get too.

It's not just that we have moved into a disposable era - I think that happened in the 1980s when Americans used to transport their groceries in the brown bags that were recyclable - now everything is contained in oil based plastics that aren't always recyclable. Americans aren't to blame but they were responsible for good oil based products - Tupperware springs to mind here.

Returning to the idea of "Eco" labelled vacuums though, how can ANY label be trusted? I refer to the rating plates on the back of vacuums here - the model may well say 900 to indicate the watts that it is supposed to give but the rating plate tells a different story: 500 to 700 watts. Surely then to benefit consumers, the marketing number should match the rating plate?? Hoover UK machines used to be really bad for this. So, even a 2200 "advertised" label may, in reality turn out to be 1800 watts at its strongest judged by the rating plate.


Post# 178030 , Reply# 37   4/22/2012 at 12:41 (2,908 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

I so agree. Though the debate about the "what it says on the can" wattage is one which had been raised before. I think it's used as a sales ploy, to list the maximum wattage the cleaner could run at, even though as stated on the rating plate, it is variable, due to voltage drops.

Post# 178093 , Reply# 38   4/23/2012 at 05:13 (2,908 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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Well the higher the wattage the less I'll want to buy it!

I'd actually look for low wattage when buying a Vacuum Cleaner, as long as it was well made also of course, as low wattage doesn't always mean good design.

I think I remember that thread, can't remember the name though... I think it was one I created.


Post# 178211 , Reply# 39   4/23/2012 at 18:58 (2,907 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Yes JM but "well made" could hide a multitude of sins - it has to offer a sealed system in order for any power to allow airflow without leaks.

Post# 178569 , Reply# 40   4/25/2012 at 18:17 (2,905 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Here's another example - the Hoover UK models (and to those interested they've redone the UK site)

The normal Purepower with the 2100 watt motor costs below 100 and the "Eco/Green Ray" with 1200 watt motor seems to be a bit more expensive.


Post# 178576 , Reply# 41   4/25/2012 at 19:02 (2,905 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

There's a simple reason for that, greenwash, sell something as "eco-friendly", and people will go for it because they think they're saving money, even when they're spending more for basically the same damned thing but with a lower wattage motor... :\

To be properly green, you have to Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Repair, don't buy new, use and re-use what you have to reduce waste, recycle what you can't or repair what you can, ecologically and economically, you're better off... :)

Plus, buying used is cheaper and often doesn't require much more money to get everything all cleaned and serviceable, if any at all... :)


Post# 178627 , Reply# 42   4/26/2012 at 05:41 (2,905 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

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I didn't know they'd changed their website nor that they had released another Pure Power, but thanks for posting!

First of all - I'm glad they have made a 1200 Watt upright, but charging 50 more for it ? No, sorry HOOVER, you're not getting my money there.


Post# 178661 , Reply# 43   4/26/2012 at 12:31 (2,904 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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twocvbloke - buying used might be cheaper but dependent on who you buy from doesn't automatically mean it's cleaner. See thread 16671, my post 178037 - bought a 2nd hand Sebo upright from a private seller from Gumtree - stank of dog and no matter what filters and new hose purchased by the seller had been fitted, it still smelt bad.

Unless you buy a reconditioned or refurbished vacuum from anyone AND they can state that it has been cleaned up to a good standard, you can't rely on it. I know it's different from collector to collector but for anyone else, it can be a bit of a faff - especially if you consider places like Cash Convertor, Cash Generator or even charity shops that deal in electrical appliances. PAT testing only goes so far and not all the tools are sometimes included.


Post# 178671 , Reply# 44   4/26/2012 at 14:26 (2,904 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

You never smelled my Hoover Juniors U1104 and 1346 when I got them, they not only smelled of dog, they smelled of dog poo too, but I still got them all cleaned out and working with no trace of stink, just by putting in the effort to strip everything down to component parts and scrubbing everything clean, something that is difficult with modern vacs with integrated airways inside the plastic that can't easily be cleaned without special tools, but even then there are ways & means round the issues of those... :)

Yeah, not everyone thinks the same as I do, with them thinking used is dirty and smelly, I look at them and thing "what's wrong with it and how can I sort it out?", though I generally don't look into PAT testing cos that's usually just a case of "Does it switch on and not blow up? Yep. Tt's tested!!", the Junior I bought from the BHF store in Burnley had PA tested it, but not actually bothered to check it for wiring faults and a metal fan that was about to shed a blade, both of which I fixed and I have a decent little vacuum... :)

I do have my limits though, in that I wouldn't buy anything made in the past 20 years unless it was something based on a much older design (E.G. my trio of Sanitaires), that and I haven't bought or salvaged a vacuum since moving house cos of the lack of free space to play... :\


Post# 178672 , Reply# 45   4/26/2012 at 14:52 (2,904 days old) by Rolls_rapide (-)        
Purepower Greenray

I wonder what modifications they have made to get the same suction power with a less powerful motor?

Could it be wider motor intake grill and motor cavity channels? (The hose and floor head still look the same sizes).

Or could they have fitted a twin-fan motor?


Post# 178692 , Reply# 46   4/26/2012 at 16:24 (2,904 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

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The reason that some green machines are more expensive is because of the fan design of the motor. You will find that the fan cover will have a small sylicone based sal that seals the gap between the fan and fan casing, also he fan wil have a greater curve to it allowing it to suck in more air, the more cure the fa has the more expensive it is to make. 

They do this to get the same amount of power out of a 1200 watt motor as you would on a 2000 watt motor , 

HOWEVER NOTE I SAID SOME 

some manufactures just cheat. 

 

On the green thing , Cape Town is very green as far as the in crowd goes and if you drive a monster v8 like I do you can get allot of flack. Especially from prius owners. I always tell them that my car is paid for , its old , its recycled and it will out last there prius 3 or 4 times over so its greener than there car. OOOh they get so cross hehehe I love it 


Post# 178699 , Reply# 47   4/26/2012 at 17:12 (2,904 days old) by vintagerepairer (England)        

gsheen, in in light of what you said about the cost of making a more intricate fan, would you say the cost of these motors is becoming more even with the rising cost of metal? I'm thinking that a lower wattage motor would require less copper windings, therefore although the fan costs more, the cost of metal would be lower.

Post# 178760 , Reply# 48   4/27/2012 at 06:53 (2,904 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Its never the cost of the materials in mass manufacturing its the cost of the machinery that makes the part compared to the amount of units sold 


Post# 178768 , Reply# 49   4/27/2012 at 08:01 (2,904 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        
"they not only smelled of dog, they smelled of dog poo t

jmurray01's profile picture
Oh God... I'd never be able to change the belt without thinking about what that brush roll may have swept up... *Shivers*

Post# 178773 , Reply# 50   4/27/2012 at 08:47 (2,904 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
JM - well, that's one advantage of the older classic Hoovers compared to the TP ranges and beyond - the brush strips can be removed to be cleaned off unlike the bonded ones on the Agitators. Same with the commercial Sebo uprights. Removable brush strips you can clean off are really simple and replace in time instead of the whole brush roll.

I don't want to point fingers but Hoover UK may well have done very little to the Purepower Greenray and just made the claim. Their website always has inaccuracies! It is interesting to note that the actual Freedom based upright that has the Greenray name & body added to it now takes on the "Dustmanager" name. It has a 1300 watt motor but Hoover stated that it has 200 Air watts. So how can the Purepower Greenray have 290 air watts from a 1200 watt motor? Something isn't quite right here and I've pulled up Hoover before because of their poorly misleading information!



Post# 178775 , Reply# 51   4/27/2012 at 08:49 (2,904 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
I do have to laugh though - it's not really revealed until you click on it and it takes you to the whole line up.


Post# 178776 , Reply# 52   4/27/2012 at 08:51 (2,904 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
The "Freedom" based newly renamed "Dust Manager."

Post# 178779 , Reply# 53   4/27/2012 at 09:42 (2,904 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"I'd never be able to change the belt without thinki

I didn't find anything that looked like mutt manure, it was most likely the fact that the dog hair filled bags were decomposing as they were sopping wet, and some dogs just plain stink regardless, so I was not too bothered about that, plus rubber gloves are handy when washing things like that out, not that I did, after all it helps to build the immune system up... :P

I have to say, that Hoover "Dust manager" thing looks about as eco-friendly as burning coal, once that plastic suffers ye olde plastique fatigue, then that's it, off to the bin it goes cos it'd cost more to fix than to just sling it and buy a new one, and that's why I hate all this greenwash eco-nonesense, cos it's all good and well saying something's green, but it's not changing the throwaway mentality that has been conditioned into the people of the modern world, so it's a case of why bother, and the reason, /$$$/, that's why...


Post# 178785 , Reply# 54   4/27/2012 at 10:16 (2,904 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        
"plastique fatigue"

jmurray01's profile picture
Ha ha, ever the witty David!

Yep, the true "Green Machine" is a Vacuum Cleaner that is built to last and does just that, so even if it uses a bit more electricity, it won't have to be re-manufactured again in five years, but then again, where is the profit in that for manufacturers ?


Post# 178870 , Reply# 55   4/27/2012 at 19:29 (2,903 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"Ha ha, ever the witty David! "

hehe, I'm just a mushroom me.... :P

Plastic fatigue, just like metal fatigue, is a problem with plastics, at points of high stress, imperfections in the casting and UV damage of chemicals in the plastics all result in plastic creations to become weak and brittle, regardless of the plastics used, maybe someday someone will create a "perfect plastic", but so far, everything created to date has it's drawbacks due to plastic fatigue...

One good example was my portable twintub, in the wash tub, where the motor shave passes through the base to the agitator, over time, that point of stress weakened, and when I went to clean the thing out prior to moving house, I found that around the bearing/seal assembly had fine hairline cracks all round that area, and the thing was made of modern supposedly tough ABS plastic, but it still suffered, and I found it had started leaking, so, it had to be disposed of (well, minus the salvageable electrics, I have ideas for them!!), meaning I lost out on something I liked because of this problem... :\

And looking at some of the eco-vacs out there, they manufacture the shells from recycled plastic, and that isn't guaranteed to be purely one plastic, as I'm sure we all know that not everyone separates the different plastics for the recycling bin, so you never really know what is making up the structure of an eco-vac, and would most likely end up with lovely fine cracks everywhere resulting in broken parts... :S

And I know I waffled there, there's a good reason for that, beer, it's nice... :P


Post# 178926 , Reply# 56   4/28/2012 at 03:18 (2,903 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Plastic also suffer cracking from aging-the plasticizers leach out of the plastic-causing it to get weak and brittle.Thus the age cracks.And some may THINK plastics get recycled--not all of the time--dumpsters full of plastic get dumpted in landfills (in US) all of the time.Just not publicized.So the "Green" vacuum described---is just another "dumpster" vacuum.Throw it out when it dies and buy another one.Be more "green" to buy a more durable machine instead.

Post# 178936 , Reply# 57   4/28/2012 at 08:16 (2,903 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I was just looking through the Coopers of Stortford magazine I got with the paper today and saw a cylinder Vacuum Cleaner which looked fine, and wasn't too expencive, but I had two problems with it.

The first was my pet hate, a "life time" bag, but that was't the worst bit.

2400 WATTS!!

Absolutely ridiculous.


Post# 178939 , Reply# 58   4/28/2012 at 08:21 (2,903 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
There should be a limit to how much you can drink and still post here, ha ha!

As for plastic quality, I've never seen a better quality plastic in my life than the one on my 1977 HOOVER Senior Ranger. It is so damn strong! And the important bits, like the floor pan and handle, are made from metal so not to wear over time.

Go back to old engineering HOOVER, you made things better then!



Post# 178955 , Reply# 59   4/28/2012 at 11:11 (2,903 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"There should be a limit to how much you can drink and s

There is, it's called unconsciousness... :P

I think the reason older plastic things last longer is through the sheer thickness of the plastic, for example, my old phones, as they get newer or have newer parts added, the plastic seems to get thinner and thinner, so they flex a lot more than they ought to resulting in cracks (like my red 1985-AT&T-modified Northern Telecom 2500, that's got cracks everywhere), but the ones with their original 1950's parts are so damned thick that they do not flex at all, therefore don't suffer from cracking through stress...

That said, one of the plastics they used, known as Tenite (which smells like rotten cheese, or bad foot odour, and other things like that), tends to shrink and crack over time, so they're not perfect either... :P

So, for longevity, Thick plastic = Good, Thin plastic = Bad, but the manufacturers want things to break so you buy new ones, which like this thread keeps pointing out is why these eco-friendly models are far from being eco-friendly and are just 100% greenwash... :\


Post# 178970 , Reply# 60   4/28/2012 at 13:08 (2,902 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        
"There is, it's called unconsciousness... :P "

jmurray01's profile picture
So that's why it took you so long to reply eh ?

Yep I suspected it was simply the thickness of the plastic on older appliances that made them strong.

You have a fair point that as things get more advanced and have more accessories fitted to them the plastic has to get thinner to keep the item small.


Post# 179096 , Reply# 61   4/29/2012 at 10:51 (2,902 days old) by twocvbloke ()        
"So that's why it took you so long to reply eh ?"

Nah, I've been doing outdoorsy things, like preventing the badly built shed roof from collapsing under this rain we've been having... :P

Don't really think there's much else to add to this thread now, I think all the bases are covered on eco-vacs... :P


Post# 179109 , Reply# 62   4/29/2012 at 11:10 (2,902 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
I know what you mean David, my shed roof lifted on the left hand side a few months ago when the side support snapped off.

20 nails later it was fixed, and is still holding up.


Post# 179119 , Reply# 63   4/29/2012 at 11:36 (2,902 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

I need to completely rebuild that part of the roof, some muppet used MDF board under cheap roof lining stuff with cheap nails right through it, which soaked up water and sagged, and they added some wood that had about as much structural integrity as strawberry jam, and yesterday, it peeled off like a banana skin.... :S

That said, I'd rather knock the whole thing down (technically it's not a shed, it's the remnants of the old outdoor toilet with an extension (the collapsing part) built on), and put in a proper wooden shed, cos I want a proper shed... :P

Every proper man needs a shed... :D


Post# 179335 , Reply# 64   4/30/2012 at 05:25 (2,901 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        
"Every proper man needs a shed... :D "

jmurray01's profile picture
So why do you need one ? Only kidding!

I've never heard of ANYBODY using Medium Density Fibreboard for a shed roof, that is absolutely ridiculous!

MDF + Water = Absorption, swelling and weakening. The builder (if you could stretch to that loose term) who made your shed obviously wasn't absorbed in the other sense of the word.



Post# 179336 , Reply# 65   4/30/2012 at 05:27 (2,901 days old) by jmurray01 (Scotland)        

jmurray01's profile picture
My shed on the other hand, although required a repair as I said, is made to very high standard.

The actual walls and floor are the original it was built with 50 years ago, and the only new part is the roof joists and the roof itself.

Same with the garage, 50 year old walls and new roof.

They don't make wood like they used to.





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