Thread Number: 16153
LUX suction
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Post# 172217   3/6/2012 at 17:29 (4,404 days old) by Real1 ()        

I'm frustrated for my efforts....need some assurance.Undecided The other day I was using one of my 1205's and I thought I heard the motor slightly spool down...in other words, decrease in RPM accompanied by what I thought was a change in suction. So....I took the motor out, cleaned, re-oiled the bearing, checked the brushes and burnished the commutator. Put it all back together and the same suction...nothing changed. Then....I figured I'd try my other 1205 motor (vac in the process of restoration, so partially disassembled). Took out that motor, worked the same magic, tried it, same suction and rpm (by ear)...no change.

 

Baffled, I took out my restored G and tried the two against each other in suction tests (informal like against my arm skin, don't have any tool yet to check vacuum) and it seemed that the G has slightly more pull.  Both hoses are genuine LUX replacements. Shouldn't the 1205 have a slight edge in suction over the G?? I've been using the 1205 everyday because I thought it had more suction, now I'm really confused....Frown I doubt if the windings are weak in both 1205 motors, although I guess it's possible. When I restored my G's, one motor was definitely stronger than the other, but I never checked the brush holder colors to see if I had the updated motor. The motors on the 1205 are identical in appearance and work the same..

 

Kevin


Post# 172225 , Reply# 1   3/6/2012 at 19:24 (4,404 days old) by henry200 (Saint Paul MN)        

Don't quote me on this but I believe the late Gs and early 1205s shared the same motor so theoretically they should pull the same suction.   Many years ago I had a late model 1205 that started doing what you describe: suddenly, unpredictably slowing down a bit.  When it started doing that consistently I took it to my local vac shop for repair but ended up trading it for a brand new Olympia model which had just been traded-in for a new Rainbow.


Post# 172227 , Reply# 2   3/6/2012 at 19:51 (4,404 days old) by venson ()        
@real1

Hi Kevin,

If my recall is correct -- and it may not be -- the 1205 had the same wattage draw as the Model G -- 535 watts. Nonetheless, the lower wattage draw in general is what wins my praise for the older Electrolux machines. They were designed -- machines and cleaning tools -- to make best use of air flow without having to go for overkill re the motor's juice requirements. I've never loved the Electrolux power nozzles much but as for general cleaning other brands of the '60s had long been using motors with higher power draw and Electrolux held its own right along with them.

The company did step up motor power I believe with the J.

I've always maintained that design means everything and earlier Electrolux machines seemed to never fail to incorporate good looks and efficiency without having to be dynamo powered. That also applies to all those 350 or so watt uprights Hoover made back in the day.


Post# 172235 , Reply# 3   3/6/2012 at 22:04 (4,404 days old) by Real1 ()        
Well.....

in defense of the 1205,  it still cleans just fine. I'm just a stickler for things that change in motor functions-the urge to 'fix it' I guess.  I would be content if the G and 1205 pulled the same, but I think the G has a touch more suction. I know it's not the best method, but I even pulled off the hoses and just put the palm of my hand against the suction end of the machines for comparison.

 

I asked before to Mason 'silence', but was curious how some of you guys measure vacuum....you talk about a tool....something other than the steel ball tool the LUX salesmen used...? I guess that's the next step-to accurately measure vacuum 'lift'. And I totally agree...it's not always about power but cleaning efficiency. The old metal body LUX's do that and then some.Wink

 

Yeah, I think that's correct; late model G motor is the same as 1205...come to think of it. My two G's are turquoise,  but I think one got the tan G 'updated' motor because it's always had more suction.. 

 

Kevin




This post was last edited 03/06/2012 at 22:34
Post# 172237 , Reply# 4   3/6/2012 at 22:42 (4,404 days old) by frank1002us ()        
to check which vacuum is stronger

put a new strong post card between two hoses and try to separate them when both vacuums are running. the post card stays with the stronger vacuum

Post# 172240 , Reply# 5   3/6/2012 at 22:48 (4,404 days old) by r2d2 ()        
Hose Pilot

I have piloted Electrolux vacuums my entire life and sold them in the 70's. I began selling 1205s but often pushed customers into a rebuilt G with a power nozzle upgrade. The whole package along with a hose wrapper cord was $152.00 when the 1205 was at $279.00. I love the G because they are so quiet and I enjoy their dependability. I have used a friends 1205 and it did the same thing although his would speed back up again so I attrtibuted it to electrical draw somewhere else, like when the lights dim when the refrigerator kicks on or the washer goes into spin. I use a Silverado at home as my daily driver downstairs and tan model G upstairs with an Electrolux Gaurdian upright for quick pick ups between using the Silverado. I also been known to suck around a little with other brands on the side.

Post# 172243 , Reply# 6   3/6/2012 at 22:55 (4,404 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
KW:

Was that $279 price for a 1205 with or without the PN? And which PN would it have been - the PN-1 or PN-2?

Post# 172244 , Reply# 7   3/6/2012 at 22:57 (4,404 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Oh!

I just figured out who you are, KW.

Still treasure my Dormeyer Princess, and think of you often.


Post# 172260 , Reply# 8   3/7/2012 at 01:14 (4,404 days old) by pnluxconvlvr (Georgia)        
Same power drop

pnluxconvlvr's profile picture
The 1205 I sold last year did the same thing. The motor tone going lower for a minute or two and then coming back up. The 1205 I have now does not do it. Maybe it has something to do with the armature and temperature as it seemed to happen after it had been running for a while. Does it vibrate at 60 :)

Post# 172273 , Reply# 9   3/7/2012 at 07:20 (4,403 days old) by venson ()        
@real1

"I know it's not the best method, but I even pulled off the hoses and just put the palm of my hand against the suction end of the machines for comparison."

Hi,

With the 1205 and G that's not a great way to test pull because the 1205 has the slots inside the suction port to allow for the hose's electrical connection hook up. Air for suction may bleed without the hose in place.

Steel ball and even bowling ball tests don't prove much either. I did that last year with Oreck's Ultimate Hand Vac. It actually did latch onto the bowling ball and hold it. However, I had an irate customer come back roaring like a lion because he thought if it could do all that he could use it to clean the heavily trafficked stairways of a multiple dwelling he owned. I don't think his view was practical but at $150 a pop whose prone to question a buyer's plan for use though, had I known, I would have said something. The bag and the machine were way too small and clogged up quickly.

Taking a lesson from the experience I took to being sure buyers knew in advacne that particular vac was meant for general household duty only.


Post# 172278 , Reply# 10   3/7/2012 at 08:51 (4,403 days old) by Real1 ()        
After.....

I was here last, I Googled around a bit and found a gauge that's meant to measure vacuum lift in inches of water. Probably get that to have as a tool anyway...thanks Frank for the postcard idea;sounds simple but effective.Laughing

 

Interesting feedback on the 1205, thanks guys. @Venson...probably serve you well to ask the customers exactly what they intend to use the vacuum for. Folks get some crazy ideas with vacuum models and price points. Good point on the electrical slots of the 1205, although they're pretty small.

 

Kevin


Post# 172287 , Reply# 11   3/7/2012 at 09:51 (4,403 days old) by Elux89 ()        
@Real1

Go to a vac shop, or look on line to purchase a suction/waterlift gauge. That will tell you how strong the motor is pulling. But be forewarned, you will get different ratings with the same motors (standard deviation), plus atmospherice pressure will cause differences, plus the amount of voltage coming through the lines will also affect suction.

Also, consider purchasing a Baird aiflow meter as well. With this, you now can test for CFM in addition to your suction (inches of lift) with the suction gauge.

Hope this helps


Post# 172289 , Reply# 12   3/7/2012 at 09:56 (4,403 days old) by Elux89 ()        
@Venson

Nice to see you on this site. Haven't seen or heard Carmen comment on the other site for quite some time. Haven't chatted with you for a while either. We need more individuals here like yourself whom have well thought out, almost scientific evidence, conversations/advice. Me, like many others don't post much here anymore, we are tired of the "childish" behaviour that goes on.

Post# 172292 , Reply# 13   3/7/2012 at 10:11 (4,403 days old) by rugsucker (Elizabethton TN)        
1205 motor

May not be a factor in this case but some 1205 brush holders will with time and vibration have the metal sleeve slide toward the comm on motor.Should always be looked at and if sleeve is sliding toward motor,remove brush holder and tap until sleeve and rear edge of plastic portion are flush at top and bottom.Then with pliers or cutters make a downward crimp so sleeve will stay in place.Later brush holders had a fix of small bump on sleeve fitting in groove of plastic holder.If sleeve has touched motor make sure carbon brush will slide freely before reassembly.--The G and 1205 are both good but many salesmen,collectors and users do consider the G as the best of the 2.The 'greatest' Elux are probably the XXX(older,no pn)G(newer with power nozzle).

Post# 172362 , Reply# 14   3/7/2012 at 15:53 (4,403 days old) by venson ()        
@Elux89 . . .

Hi,

How are you? Thank you much for the kind sentiment.

Carmine, is out west with wife and family living quite the life I understand. It's been a couple of months since I last touched base but, per the best of my knowledge, he's well and having a great time.

Venson


Post# 172399 , Reply# 15   3/7/2012 at 18:06 (4,403 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        

My 1205 & Model L are doing the same thing as described above; at times the motor slows down a bit, then spins normally fine.

VERY many thanks to those that post the problem/solution about this.


Post# 172441 , Reply# 16   3/7/2012 at 22:52 (4,403 days old) by Real1 ()        
@Vernon

Thank you for the heads up on Baird airflow meter. Sounds very much like a worthy tool to own.Laughing

 

I read a primer on vacuum facts last night that explained a lot of principles on lift, CFM, watts/amps, flow-through cooling etc.  

 

Kevin


Post# 172470 , Reply# 17   3/8/2012 at 09:44 (4,402 days old) by electrikbroomgu (Rome, NY)        
Motor slow down

electrikbroomgu's profile picture
My mothers 1973 newly purchased L has had the motor slow down issue since new. She would be vacuuming for about 10 minutes and the motor would literally die down with a crackle and then straighten it'self out shortly after. Sometimes I would turn it off, count to 10 and then turn it back on and it would be fine. I have had her motor apart several times, one to replace the fan end bearing and the other to run a polishing stone on the commutators. Hers does not have the brush holder issue as there is a small bump on the sleeve portion to keep them from sliding. Incidentally mom has said that the machine has been running perfect for several years now and hasn't noticed it slow down in a while.
The 2 model L's I have in my collection both have the slow down issue but none of the 1205's seem to so this seems to affect certain years mainly the early 70's motors in both L and 1205.


Post# 172517 , Reply# 18   3/8/2012 at 16:42 (4,402 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture
@real one

vac gauges and airflow meters are valuable tools, but from what I have read you need a rpm meter, we use one all the time to make sure that motors are spinning at there correct speed. this will also be able to tell you if the motor is dipping a bit.

when getting a airflow meter make sure of the range, direct air machines move more air than most can handle. also get one that can Handel a fair amount of suction.

We have one system that incorporates both to give a more a curate result.

Gareth


Post# 172591 , Reply# 19   3/9/2012 at 00:22 (4,402 days old) by Real1 ()        

Thanks Gareth, I think I might invest in a tool that reads RPM...I can use it on many other small electric motors as well. What sort of tool do you use for this task? How can I find out what the factory RPM range is supposed to be for the 1205 and the G motor?  That would at least tell me if the motor is putting out sufficient RPM's and if so, I can leap-frog to the fan impeller stages and fan box seal....although I redid the seal with no significant result.

 
Kevin 


Post# 172593 , Reply# 20   3/9/2012 at 01:35 (4,402 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture
Hi Keven
Its called a rpm reader , uses a lazer system to read rpm , not unlike the system the cops use to measure your speed , although its much smaller, will try and post a pic of one later


Post# 172710 , Reply# 21   3/9/2012 at 21:06 (4,401 days old) by Real1 ()        
Is....

it the same sort of device that you would strobe a pulley with to get RPM? I'll Google around and see if I can find one....

Kevin


Post# 172948 , Reply# 22   3/12/2012 at 13:35 (4,398 days old) by Real1 ()        
@Frank....

I did the heavy postcard trick. Even if I let the 1205 suck the postcard first, the G easily pulls it away. This is frustrating...I get the same results with two different motors. Makes me think something is going on in the canister, but what? Undecided  Any ideas anyone (other than buying the suction gauge and air flow meter-do have the RPM counter coming)? I have a good VOM and a clamp on amp/volt tester.....

 

Kevin


Post# 172968 , Reply# 23   3/12/2012 at 16:22 (4,398 days old) by r2d2 ()        
$279.00

Sandy, its good that are finding time to participate with the club again. I began selling Electrolux in 1972 shortly before the Jubilee. The powernozzle was a package with the 1205 and the 1205 could not be purchased by itself without one. The rebuilt G was $109.00 and the power nozzle, wand and sheath with hose wrapper was $54.00. I suggested to my buyers to spend the extra money on an electric hose when buying a G. I have no scientific evidence to support it but its been my experience the model G has more suction than the 1205, which has never impressed me. More often than not I would repair the buyer's existing vacuum if it were an Electrolux. I created more goodwill than income but I didn't care. Most often I'd knock on the door and t the same moment say "Dear Lord, Please don't let anyone be home".

Post# 172988 , Reply# 24   3/12/2012 at 18:55 (4,398 days old) by Rolls_rapide (-)        
Vacuum cleaner sound changes

I noticed the same thing with my mum's Vax Mach Air upright. Sometimes the motor pitch would change for no apparent reason. I put it down to two possible causes:

1: there was greater current being drawn by other appliances (cooker, tumble dryer, fridge)

2: the cleaner's motor thermistor was playing up.

Since the machine has never conked out and the filters were always kept in a clean state, I presumed the former scenario to be the case. (Lighting does slightly dim when the kitchen appliances are in full swing).



Post# 172991 , Reply# 25   3/12/2012 at 19:25 (4,398 days old) by Trebor ()        
With all power nozzle vacuums...

I have noticed that when the nozzle is turned off the RPM of the suction motor increases slightly, and conversely, when the P/N is turned on the suction motor decreases slightly. With variable speed controls on the suction motor, whether hose or body mounted, the same effect can be observed to a lesser degree with respect to the power nozzle motor. With the lower draw of 535 watts, the start up of a fridge or air conditioner has a more noticeable effect than it does on a higher wattage motor.

Try plugging the Lux into a circuit that you know has nothing else pulling from it and see if it makes a difference. And, does the armature need to be polished?


Post# 173043 , Reply# 26   3/13/2012 at 02:19 (4,398 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture
That's correct as the vac motor is having to share power that it receives with the PN, Its like those big triple motor and twin motor commercial vacuums, they are actually very inefficiently as the second and third motors are not able to achieve there peek power as they are sharing the power

Post# 173046 , Reply# 27   3/13/2012 at 03:11 (4,398 days old) by frank1002us ()        
@kevin

@kevin
a-the reason for better suction is how air tight the vacuum is. i think g is more airtight that 1205.
b-the hose might be leaking.
to check the hose for leak
1-prepare a water and soap solution [maybe 10 to 1] in a spray bottle.
2-put the hose to the exhaust blower.
3-spray a little of the soap solution on the hose.
4-turn on the vacuum and put your hand at the end of the hose to stop the air from coming out
5-watch for bubbles.
c-the bag. make sure you have a clean bag.
d-air flow is more important than suction to the cleaning power of the vacuum


Post# 173094 , Reply# 28   3/13/2012 at 15:13 (4,397 days old) by Real1 ()        
I'm...

not using/sharing a PN in any of these tests...just a floor suction wand...same wand used on both the G & the 1205. I did the soap test on both hoses, which BTW are newer LUX replacements-$$$. Both hoses past the soap test. Clean bag yes, that's a given.  Yes, both 1205 motors where gone through:burnished commutators, checked, cleaned & reoiled bearings and checked brush length. Both motors perform identically...the reason I'm thinking it's something else.  I could swear I was getting more suction on the 1205 originally....now I'm starting to wonder,  but for a G to out pull a 1205??Surprised If that's the case....I'll just keep using the 1205 as my daily and keep smiling at the old, victorious G with its turquoise suit.Cool

 

@


Post# 173135 , Reply# 29   3/13/2012 at 20:41 (4,397 days old) by frank1002us ()        

i have not compared the two myself, but model g is one of the best electrolux vacuum cleaner. it is probably one of the most sealed one for sure.

Post# 173136 , Reply# 30   3/13/2012 at 21:06 (4,397 days old) by Real1 ()        
And....

that may be the cause of the different suctions; the G is sealed like a drum. And totally agree...the G is probably the last of the late great LUX's. Almost makes me want to try earlier models as well,  but I really have enough 'projects' on my plate. I'm done with ebay except for accessories.  Most folks just don't do honest descriptions of their vacuums (even resplendent with dirt in a bag!), but I do hunt craigslist occasionally. 

 

Kevin


Post# 173146 , Reply# 31   3/13/2012 at 22:35 (4,397 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Yep!

"I do hunt craigslist occasionally."

Yeah, I've been burned on eBay, too. I've taken the same approach you have - parts and accessories only.

The nice thing about Craigslist is that things are usually much more reasonably priced, and you get to look at them before parting with your cash. If something's wrong, the lower price usually compensates for it. If you have to replace a cracked handle on a 1205, for instance, it doesn't hurt nearly as much on a $10 Craigslist machine as it does on a $65 eBay one. And you got to decide whether it was worth it to you up front.


Post# 173175 , Reply# 32   3/14/2012 at 09:34 (4,396 days old) by Real1 ()        
Exactly....

my thinking. And because you're there in person, you can usually negotiate the price if you show him things are wrong/broken.  Ebay broke me when I was buying vacuums and the sellers were sending them with their bags full of dirt. If they can't even remove a bag full of their dirt, what does that tell you?Wink

 

Kevin


Post# 173243 , Reply# 33   3/14/2012 at 15:43 (4,396 days old) by frank1002us ()        

i would say olympia and silverado were also great machines. i love the new uprights also.

Post# 173264 , Reply# 34   3/14/2012 at 18:06 (4,396 days old) by Real1 ()        
I've not....

had either of those, but was bullied (by a lady salesperson, my mother-in-law and the wife) into buy a new Diamond Jubilee around 83/84 with all the bells & whistles.  When we split, I got the old G. Guess which one is still going?Tongue out



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