Thread Number: 14362
Bagless Technology
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Post# 151692   9/16/2011 at 23:13 (4,577 days old) by vacu-finder ()        

The Dyson seems to be a big hit for some folks.
What happened to the good old Filter Queen.
I cannot see why they have yet to come up with a revised filter queen sort of idea for a vacuum.

It would probably go over really well, think about some ideas you can come up with to improve on the old Filter Queen design..!


Post# 151693 , Reply# 1   9/16/2011 at 23:35 (4,577 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

From what I know about Filter Queens, they're just basically using an open-bag design, rather than the dirt collecting within a bag, it collects outside of the cone-shaped filter, and you still have to change the filter like it was a bag, so, it's not really a very good idea in practice, and as mentioned elsewhere, I'd rather have the dirt captured inside of a bag that I can pop out and throw out, anything where I'd have to tip a bin or cannister over to empty it into a bin is just plain unhygienic....

I know that people have their methods to empty such things, funnily enough emptying into of all things, a bag, but, there are bagged vacs out there that do it all for you, so why bother with bagless when you end up using a bag to contain the dust, well, most of the dust, seeing how bagless vacs like to spew out a mushroom cloud when being emptied...

Disgusting invention I tell ya!!


Post# 151694 , Reply# 2   9/16/2011 at 23:47 (4,577 days old) by vacu-finder ()        

Yes i agree on a few points. But my point here is to come up with a better design than the Queen simpler so to speak and not as messy.
Basically what I'm try to say is get away from the Star Wars muli chamber, funnel aspects of these Cyclonic monsters that have evolved.

Something simple like the F queen.............Why because people are buying these bagless wonders.

Personally I prefer the bagged machines.


Post# 151695 , Reply# 3   9/17/2011 at 00:32 (4,577 days old) by twocvbloke ()        

I think the Filter Queen design is as basic as you can get, dirt comes in at an angle and spins around in a cyclonic action, just as in larger commercial bagless cannisters, there's not really much you can do with such things before you start going into dyson territory... :\

Post# 151699 , Reply# 4   9/17/2011 at 02:12 (4,577 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

the whole idea behind the filterqueen isthat the dirt falls off the cone when the machine is swithched off thus it retains more suction, also the cone lasts longer than the avarage bag so less expense.


Post# 151705 , Reply# 5   9/17/2011 at 02:42 (4,577 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

at one time Filter Queen was working on a doughnut shaped bag assembly that would work as a disposable "bag"-it had the cone filter on the top-that fitted against the cone guard as done now.The bottom of the bag was plastic-that was in the tank.So after about a month-you simply replaced the assembly-dirt and all.the vacuums drum stayed clean.Saw it on a poster at the former FQ dealer here-asked about them-the dealer said it was a proposed item-nota available yet.guess the device didn't work out.Would have been unique.Wished I had a copy of that poster-folks here would like to see that.

Post# 152079 , Reply# 6   9/19/2011 at 18:12 (4,574 days old) by henry200 (Saint Paul MN)        
Filter Queen, a good idea that could be better

I had a FQ for a number of years and for the most part was very happy with it, if you don't count the inevitable mushroom cloud of dust when emptying the bin, and the resulting agravated allergies.  FQ's idea of cyclonic separation works to a point.  Coarse material such as sand and hair is heavy enough to be spun out of the airstream away from the filter, but that's not what clogs a filter and cuts down on airflow.   The filter cone still ends up getting coated with a thick layer of fine dust which is too light to get spun-out.   The Dyson cyclones are more powerful and do a better job of separating finer particles, but even at that, they aren't 100% effective or Dyson wouldn't employ filters as a backup.


Post# 152145 , Reply# 7   9/19/2011 at 21:45 (4,574 days old) by vacu-finder ()        

I know how they work, the concept behind them. My point as stated previously.
and quote un quote Simple like the F Queen.
The dyson is not simple construction neither is any other Bagless machine.


"Something simple like the F queen.......Why because people are buying these bagless wonders."



Post# 152256 , Reply# 8   9/20/2011 at 07:34 (4,574 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)        

If one was to pay it it's dues, Rainbow is also a "bagless" machine. No mushroom cloud when you empty.


Post# 152266 , Reply# 9   9/20/2011 at 13:01 (4,573 days old) by gsheen (Cape Town South Africa)        

gsheen's profile picture

Being a big Dyson fan I love bagless vacuums , I think that most of them are ok , the trouble is that on the cheaper ones the cyclonic systems arent very good so they clog up fast. Here in Southafrica you can't buy a normal upright vacuum that still uses paper bags exept miele, sebo and Kirby.

 

Most people I find buy a bagless vacuum and then complain heavily in 6 months that the machine is rubbish as it doesn't suck any more. they bring them into our store and sure enough I ask them whether thay have cleaned the filter and the normal answer is , "but its bagless"

If you keep the filter clean you will get good life out of them, little old ladys come in here every couple of months and get new filters and theres keep running for years.

 

I will say that in most cases in SA the filters are cheaper over a year than bags would have been  

 

If my customers can't afford a dyson and they have staff using it I always suggest a bagged vacuum , unfortunetley normally a cyclinder.

 

I do believe you can abuse a bagged vacuum more than a bagless ( dysons excluded)

 


Post# 155182 , Reply# 10   10/12/2011 at 18:47 (4,551 days old) by thissucks ()        

i dont like dysons at all, my gripe is the the way things snap together the use of cheap brush rolls and that most new models you cannot properly clean cyclonic units without ripping out the silicone sealent.

i however do admire bagless vac archetecture and design, most dont work good but most look very cool.

there is way too much handling dust for it to be a good idea, on top of that most filters must get replaced every 6 months, some top $40 a pop for a filter, dysons and others you can clean and claim lifetime filters- but its alot of cleaning every couple months and any filter will need to be replaced in a few years regardless.

if you really think about it, bagless is a step back along with the shake out bags, essentially the same thing. bagless vacs using "cyclonic action" also usually have poor flow compaired to bagged counterparts.

the only design bagless unit i can understand is the sanitaire and hoover commercial dump cup system that doesnt make much mess at all.


Post# 155192 , Reply# 11   10/12/2011 at 20:49 (4,551 days old) by jonesmic28 ()        
BAGLESS TECHNOLOGY

Hi Im New here. My take on bagless is simplicity as well. I own a Rainbow e2 and a new Amway Cleartrak. Having used so many bagless vacuums in my day, I have found the Amway to be the most hassel free.


Post# 155236 , Reply# 12   10/13/2011 at 04:51 (4,551 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Just remember on ANY bagless,Dump cup,or dump bag vacuum--empty it after each major use!that way the cloth bags and filters will stay cleaner-last longer.

Post# 155381 , Reply# 13   10/14/2011 at 06:41 (4,550 days old) by sarasvacshack ()        
Filter Queen Simpler?

I sold FQ for 10 years, and your question kept me up many nights.

The former president of HMI (FQ) went to china and had an "upright version of the FQ" produced. It is being sold under the Filtropur brand. Not a very quality machine, as you can imagine.

If only there were an easier dump method, which I think is the biggest downfall of the FQ. Being sold to allergy and asthma sufferers, the dump method is not an optimal dust removal system no matter where you dump it out (inside or out). Placing a bag inside the unit would essentially turn it into a Fairfax.


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Post# 155388 , Reply# 14   10/14/2011 at 08:10 (4,549 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Filtropur

blackheart's profile picture
I've seen one of those in person before i stopped into an electrolux dealer to see if they still did door to door sales, and the guy told me his son had another company that dealt with "health" so i assume filter queen but he said it wasn't so anyways after seeing the machine i was not impressed with it and moved along on my job hunt, for an expensive machine 1 micron filtration is pretty poor

Post# 155400 , Reply# 15   10/14/2011 at 11:05 (4,549 days old) by sarasvacshack ()        
for an expensive machine 1 micron filtration is pretty poor

Filter Queen claims 99.98% @ 0.1 microns with the Medipure, which if true, would be significant.

Post# 155402 , Reply# 16   10/14/2011 at 11:43 (4,549 days old) by williamr1248 (USA)        
Bagless technology

One of the earlier posters brought up a good point about bagless. At the end of use you are STILL messing with dry dirt and dust and putting it into a bin or bag of some type. Might as well have the bag to start. I have used and like both the Filter Queen and the Dysons but do not like the messy dust flying when time to empty. I have even gtried to empty the Dyson in the garage and carefuly dump the bin. The next day I can see a layer of dust on my car. 

I have converted to the Rainbow and never have flying dust when I empty and so much less dust in the house. If it were leaving all the "embedded" dirt in the carpets I would have dust in the room and on the table tops and furniture when people walked on the carpets and rugs.  

Maybe Electrolux and Air-Way had the right idea years ago with a cheaper bag that you replaced more often.

Even the expensive Miele had dust in the bag compartment when I was having one demonstated to me a vac shop and  they were asking the customer to buy expensive hepa bags and filters.  Very interesting thread!


Post# 155518 , Reply# 17   10/15/2011 at 09:43 (4,548 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Filtration

blackheart's profile picture
I've seen the claim of .01 of a micron for the Filterqueen, it just seems like for how much the filtropur costs it should at least filter down to the hepa (.03 of a micron) level i mean if you look at other high end brands, almost all of them feature hepa filters, granted it's not necessary for most people but for the price you pay for one you'd think you'd get that level of filtration.

Post# 155573 , Reply# 18   10/15/2011 at 19:48 (4,548 days old) by sanifan ()        
Dyson's bagless technology is superior...

Yes, it can be messy to empty, but in a bagless vacuum I find Dyson's core separation technology vastly superior to others I've tried.

As far as I know, the Dyson uses triple cyclone (Root 3) to separate the dust from the air before it is output through the hepa filter. It works very well. I have to wash out the reusable hepa filter every 3 months but, hey, that's really not a big deal at all.

Compare this to my Sanitaire commercial bagless vac that I use to vacuum the hallways of my apartment building. It a good vacuum, works great, but like some other vacuums from Eureka, Hoover, Dirt Devil, and others (where dust is sent to a cyclone, but is filtered out by a pleated filter sitting right inside the cyclone bin), it's a maintenance nightmare. In a design like this, fine, powdery, grey dust cakes the filter and clogs it to a significant degree EVERY time I vacuum with it. Dust, hair, fur, etc. Granted the hallways represent more real estate than most apartments and some houses and I vacuum the hallways only once or twice a week. Still, I actually have to remove the filter and vacuum the caked dust from between the pleats with my Sanitaire mighty mite canister AFTER EVERY TIME I use it for the upright to even be usable next time. No wonder some folks toss out a perfectly good vacuum after a few months - unless they do this rigorous maintenance, their vac is useless in short order.

The Dyson design is so superior that does away with this filter and there's hardly any dust to be seen on the output hepa filter to boot. I'm very pleased with the Dyson in that regard. I'm also pleased with the way it filters. So far the Dyson has made the air very breathable after I vacuum and I've had no problems with leaking seals, etc. How do I know it works? My girlfriend is hyper-allergic, from dust, cat and dog dander, fragrances in soaps and detergents, perfume and colognes, as well as food allergies. She also notices how clean the air feels after using the Dyson and loves the Dyson for it. If there were a bagless vac that had the durability of a commercial Sanitaire and the separation and filtering performance of a Dyson, I think I would like that a lot.

Yes it can be messy to empty a bagless. I bring it to the trash can outside to do it. I've developed strategies to minimize on the mess though. I've learned to rap the cylinder with my palm to get all the dust onto the hinged bottom before I open it. Then I hold onto the hinged bottom with one hand and the cylinder in the other and give it a few firm but controlled shakes to get whatever's left out. I make sure to stand upwind so that any dust blows away from me. When I use a pitcher-type container, like on the Sanitaire, I make sure to stand upwind and SLOWLY pour the contents onto a surface that's right under the lip of the container. Dumping it fast and at any height will insure a mushroom cloud of dust.

I love bagged vacuums, too, for sure. They are also messy, but in a different way. I'm talking about how some dust does leak from the bag and settles into the surfaces and crevices of the bag compartment. After a while there's a lot of accumulation that needs to be wiped or vacuumed out. For me using a bagged vacuum or a Dyson is a wash in terms of maintenance. Either of these are far superior to most bagless vacs, however. Now the caveat is that I'm just talking about my experience with my Dyson DC23 canister (I wipe the dust off the gaskets with a damp rag after each use to ensure a tight seal for every subsequent use). I'm not sure about characteristics of the Dyson uprights, or whether the newer bagless vacs, like Hoover's Mach 3, Mach 6, or T Series improves on dust separation or filter maintenance.

I have no experience with Filter Queens, but based on the way they need to be emptied, I'm pretty sure they're not for me.



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