What do you think, bag or bagless?

James Dyson freely admits his inspiration for the dirt separating cyclones came from observing a huge 2 story high industial cone shaped workshop dust extraction unit in operation. The debris swirls around the inside of the cone and falls by gravity through the pointy end into a cloth bag larger than a man. You'll find this type of vacuum unit in most industrial workshops - we have several at work for the Carpentry shop and another for fumes in the Welding shop. His goal was to scale it down to portable domestic size. Can't be done and also satisfy all the other requirements of a vacuum unit for daily or weekly cleaning but you can dress it up in a pretty complicated flashy looking high maintenance package.

The principal at work here - bagless debris collection - had already been figured out by Filter Queen, Nilfisk, Rainbow and others. You need a cylindrical tub of large diameter with a central fan or radial tangent inlet to stir up a swirling tornado maelstrom to fling the dirt solids to the sides and a correspondingly large area of last stage filter medium to catch the fine powder exiting the upper chamber. If one is really concerned about the fine powder exiting such a vacuum design you could place a HEPA medium inside a canister that attaches to the exhaust port. FQ calls theirs a De-Mother and Fairfax has the Filterizor. Just replace that foam insert with a circle of paper dust bag or HEPA medium. But you won't see much powder collect there. Barring a burst bag or leaking around the edge of the chamber sealing gasket, how long does it take for the round yellow motor filter disk to clog up in a Eureka/Kenmore 'canned ham' clamshell canister or the motor filter of a Compact or Constellation? It doesn't. Of course, these are vacuums with bags and we're discussing bagless designs...

I'm sure his prototypes passed air like nobody's business but in his eccentric quest to prove he could do it he had to add multiple stage filters and a twisting internal (dust snagging) air path so the exhaust airstream appears to be dust-free. There's more than a few of us here who have dismantled bagless cyclonic vacuums and seen the cholesterol-like clogging and narrowing of the air path. Other than the hose, direct path bagged vacuums have no such buildup and even then it's usually caused by vacuuming moist matter occasionally. Hoses can be soaked in a tub of water and have a bristled bottle brush run down the length to keep keep them fairly clean and certainly this is how to renew a tired old hose during restoration.

Bowing to the inevitability of Dyson's 'hammer-to-the-forehead' marketing and financial success other manufactures followed suit and HEPA came along as yet one more filter medium to capture the nano particles. Medical and Industrial HEPA & electrostatic filters have a considerably larger surface area than can possibly contribute effectively in a small home unit. What's the point? Sucking up the very building block essence of the physical world? As we all know, these filters must be cleaned out after every use, washed if permanent...and replaced if disposable or they dislplay a dramatic loss of suction, which Dyson uses as a slogan but neatly sidesteps by playing it down and every Dyson Owners Manual clearly states that washable filters must be cleaned regularly, without committing to how often. Dysons and competing bagless vacuums lose suction noticeably during one cleaning session. There is no way around this - a bagless vacuum must have it's filters washed and thoroughly dried after every use or your HEPA will become as impermeable as a sheet of Kraft paper. And I mean 'bone dry' over a hot air register for example or your fine organic matter powder will cake up around the filter pores leading to utter loss of suction.
It takes longer to clean up and prepare a bagless vac after a one time use for its next using than to do the actual vacuuming chore, taking into account washing and drying the filters, shaking off the cones, emptying the dust cup and wiping down the plastic exterior.

Loss of suction is not something you're going to face with a true cyclonic bagless tub like an FQ (or ShopVac or the older style GE & Eureka Roto-matic open paperbag-lined central swiveltop tub vacs). In an FQ The filter cone supports the 2 square foot paper filter medium in a horizontal plane. Gravity and the jostling of the machine on its way back to the storage closet is enough to shake the powder off the filter into the tub. Have you ever seen a dusty residue around the top cap of a paper coned Filter Queen? Even after weeks or months of regular use?

Set a Filter Queen/ShopVac/Nilfisk beside a modern plastic Bagless Cyclonic...with all filters removed...and compare how much debris passes through and exits the exhaust end - you'd be so horrified you'd never go bagless again.

Filter Queen has never felt compelled to add a paper liner or dust collection bag to their product. Lewyt 55s and Fairfaxs that did & do have simply added a large powder filtration area to the airsteam and provided a convenient way to dispose of the collected dirt without spillage. Empty or full to capacity, I get the same suction readings from a tub vac.

With bagged vacuum of whatever design outfitted with multi-layer bags these questions never come up - they too, do not lose appreciable suction in use over the long term.

my 17 cents worth. :-)

Dave


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Post# 54824 11/14/2008 at 08:35 (5,634 days old) by filterkirbyhoov ()
Checkrate/Likes Greetings! This is my first time posting here.... I would just like to know your thoughts on the newer machines, what do you think about the bagless vacs that I see everywhere? The my experience with one and the reason for my question: Yesterday I did a little "fall cleaning" at work, using the companies vacuum in my office (shared with 4 others). If I don't do it no one does. Anyway, they replaced the other vacuum just about a year ago with this Bissel model 3960-4 and I have to say, what a PIECE OF CRAP this is!!! I emptied the "dirt cup" then had to thoroughly clean the rest of the filter assembly because there was hardly any suction when I first turned it on. Also when I did turn it on, it blew dirt out of the machine into the air (BTW, it did this EVERYTIME I turned it on, even after the 20th time, REALLY!). So after cleaning, it had suction and I vacuumed the office (approx 16 x 25 w/o furniture) and a 3 x 4 foot carpet outside the door. By the time I completed vacuuming this area, it had almost NO suction again!!!! I repeat, what a piece of CRAP! Have any of you had an experience like this??? Thanks!

Post# 54827 , Reply# 1 11/14/2008 at 09:15 (5,634 days old) by filterqueen83 ()
Checkrate/Likes *My cleanview* The cheap walmart bissell was not to bad it had good suction and my dad still uses it till this day. It went from the house vac to a garage vac for him. But he does not maintain it at all and it still works well. This poor thing you have here looks like a mess.

Post# 54830 , Reply# 2 11/14/2008 at 09:31 (5,634 days old) by laundromat (Houston, TX)
Checkrate/Likes I have a Hoover model Z700 which was discontinued but it really works great and as long as I continue to clean it's"self cleaning"Heppa filter,it keeps all the dust from billowing out as I vacuum.It has great pick up and a long hose with great suction.I am promissing to give it to my Aunt Kathy for her 72nd birthday. I already sent her a Rainbow complete model back in 1979 and she still has it but her daughter(my cousin Nancy)"stole"it from her years ago and has had it overhauled twice now .So, it still gets lots of use.If I was to purchase a baglesss,it would more than likely be a Rainbow.I see them at yard sales,thrift stores and flee markets priced anywhere from $20 to $699.

Post# 54838 , Reply# 3 11/14/2008 at 12:30 (5,634 days old) by turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)
Checkrate/Likes I have real issues when it comes to bagless. Apart from Dyson, they have all failed to impress me. They don't do anything a bagged vacuum wouldn't do, you have to clean the filters more, they leak, they're usually very cheap and noisy and they look ugly. Dyson and the new Hoover range in the UK are half decent vacuums at least. The rest of them are just awful.

Post# 54841 , Reply# 4 11/14/2008 at 13:14 (5,634 days old) by kirbyboy1 ()
Checkrate/Likes Bag but one exception FILTER QUEEN. They are easier to empty and they only need to be emptied once a month. Other wise I like a bagged.

Post# 54843 , Reply# 5 11/14/2008 at 13:26 (5,634 days old) by filterqueen83 ()
Checkrate/Likes *Bagged all the way* The bagless is such a hassel to clean and rinse and let dry. When I am done cleaning I am done. I want to put it back together as pretty as possible and move on with my day. My partner uses the bagless when he cleans. Which is far and few between.

Post# 54882 , Reply# 6 11/15/2008 at 08:47 (5,633 days old) by samotronic ()
Checkrate/Likes *Definitely Bagged* I've never understood what the big deal is with changing the bag every so often. You're supposed to empty a bagless canister after each use. And when you consider the cloud of dust, you really have to go outside to do it. I had a Hoover Windtunnel 2, for 2 weeks before I returned it. What a chore it was to clean that thing out. I had to get another vacuum out to clean off this one from the dirt that fell out of the "self cleaning" filter. And if you have pets, you have to use your bare hands to clean all the hair off the screen. Never again!

Post# 54890 , Reply# 7 11/15/2008 at 12:08 (5,633 days old) by vinvac (Dubuque IA)
Checkrate/Likes Chris, I could not agree more. Bags are far less difficult to deal with than the dirt cups and filters on any of the bagless machines. Far less costly as well. Kevin, the Bissell you are working with should have good suction. Did you take all of the filters out? There is one in the top and bottom and there may even be a third...from memory I think there are three filters and probably need to be washed. Again, bagged all the way for me. I have never seen a Dyson, Bissell,Hoover, Eureka, Dirt Devil, Shark or any bagless machine that is easy to empty or clean the filters. Anyway you empty them there is a cloud of dust....dirt falling into the machine housing...they are all just a mess! It is clearly a visual ploy to get people to buy any bagless machine..who would not be impressed seeing all that dirt spin around in that clear container....they still loose suction if not emptied and cared for in the proper manner. Even the Dyson will start loosing suction if not properly cared for contrary to all the hipe! Just my two cents. Morgan

Post# 54913 , Reply# 8 11/16/2008 at 01:12 (5,632 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)
Checkrate/Likes BAGGED-of course!Any bagless machine I have seen at the vac shops I visit are so DUSTY on the outside-including the Dysons.And the BAGGED Bissels are MUCH better than the bagless models!-IF you have to have a Bissel.The Bissel shown in the picture is just like one that one of the vac shops is trying to sell NO ONE WANTS IT!Been there for several months!

Post# 54914 , Reply# 9 11/16/2008 at 01:16 (5,632 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)
Checkrate/Likes *before hepa, even, we all used bags,* and, we're all still here

Post# 54915 , Reply# 10 11/16/2008 at 01:17 (5,632 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)
Checkrate/Likes *by the way,* first time posting?? welcome!! Don't be a stranger......

Post# 54929 , Reply# 13 11/16/2008 at 13:11 (5,632 days old) by danemodsandy ()
Checkrate/Likes *Forgot to Say....* ....That I'm always amazed at the brazen claim made by many bagless manufacturers: "NO BAGS TO BUY!" Like a lot of claims in adverts, it's true as far as it goes. But what they never put on the side of the box is the fact that those damn filters cost every bit as much as bags, if not more. And HEPA is not necessary for healthy people who keep a clean house anyway, though it is useful for those with serious allergy problems. Give me my Lux and my bags, any time.

Post# 54977 , Reply# 16 11/17/2008 at 14:19 (5,631 days old) by vacuumfreeeke ()
Checkrate/Likes Bagged of course. How else do you get the thrill of watching bag inflate and bounce around? Of course, sadly, many of todays machines use a hard case and hide the bag. Then, the bagless is more visually appealing. Bags are so easy to change, and you never have to touch the mess... they are simply wonderful! SOMETIMES I get in the mood to see what was in my carpet. Then I use the Dyson, Iridium, or Filter Queen (the Rainbows mud is just to messy, and both mine are missing parts at the moment)... but I dread emptying them!

Post# 54920 , Reply# 11 11/16/2008 at 09:57 (5,632 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)
Checkrate/Likes *Every day in Every way bagged is better.* James Dyson freely admits his inspiration for the dirt separating cyclones came from observing a huge 2 story high industial cone shaped workshop dust extraction unit in operation. The debris swirls around the inside of the cone and falls by gravity through the pointy end into a cloth bag larger than a man. You'll find this type of vacuum unit in most industrial workshops - we have several at work for the Carpentry shop and another for fumes in the Welding shop. His goal was to scale it down to portable domestic size. Can't be done and also satisfy all the other requirements of a vacuum unit for daily or weekly cleaning but you can dress it up in a pretty complicated flashy looking high maintenance package. The principal at work here - bagless debris collection - had already been figured out by Filter Queen, Nilfisk, Rainbow and others. You need a cylindrical tub of large diameter with a central fan or radial tangent inlet to stir up a swirling tornado maelstrom to fling the dirt solids to the sides and a correspondingly large area of last stage filter medium to catch the fine powder exiting the upper chamber. If one is really concerned about the fine powder exiting such a vacuum design you could place a HEPA medium inside a canister that attaches to the exhaust port. FQ calls theirs a De-Mother and Fairfax has the Filterizor. Just replace that foam insert with a circle of paper dust bag or HEPA medium. But you won't see much powder collect there. Barring a burst bag or leaking around the edge of the chamber sealing gasket, how long does it take for the round yellow motor filter disk to clog up in a Eureka/Kenmore 'canned ham' clamshell canister or the motor filter of a Compact or Constellation? It doesn't. Of course, these are vacuums with bags and we're discussing bagless designs... I'm sure his prototypes passed air like nobody's business but in his eccentric quest to prove he could do it he had to add multiple stage filters and a twisting internal (dust snagging) air path so the exhaust airstream appears to be dust-free. There's more than a few of us here who have dismantled bagless cyclonic vacuums and seen the cholesterol-like clogging and narrowing of the air path. Other than the hose, direct path bagged vacuums have no such buildup and even then it's usually caused by vacuuming moist matter occasionally. Hoses can be soaked in a tub of water and have a bristled bottle brush run down the length to keep keep them fairly clean and certainly this is how to renew a tired old hose during restoration. Bowing to the inevitability of Dyson's 'hammer-to-the-forehead' marketing and financial success other manufactures followed suit and HEPA came along as yet one more filter medium to capture the nano particles. Medical and Industrial HEPA & electrostatic filters have a considerably larger surface area than can possibly contribute effectively in a small home unit. What's the point? Sucking up the very building block essence of the physical world? As we all know, these filters must be cleaned out after every use, washed if permanent...and replaced if disposable or they dislplay a dramatic loss of suction, which Dyson uses as a slogan but neatly sidesteps by playing it down and every Dyson Owners Manual clearly states that washable filters must be cleaned regularly, without committing to how often. Dysons and competing bagless vacuums lose suction noticeably during one cleaning session. There is no way around this - a bagless vacuum must have it's filters washed and thoroughly dried after every use or your HEPA will become as impermeable as a sheet of Kraft paper. And I mean 'bone dry' over a hot air register for example or your fine organic matter powder will cake up around the filter pores leading to utter loss of suction. It takes longer to clean up and prepare a bagless vac after a one time use for its next using than to do the actual vacuuming chore, taking into account washing and drying the filters, shaking off the cones, emptying the dust cup and wiping down the plastic exterior. Loss of suction is not something you're going to face with a true cyclonic bagless tub like an FQ (or ShopVac or the older style GE & Eureka Roto-matic open paperbag-lined central swiveltop tub vacs). In an FQ The filter cone supports the 2 square foot paper filter medium in a horizontal plane. Gravity and the jostling of the machine on its way back to the storage closet is enough to shake the powder off the filter into the tub. Have you ever seen a dusty residue around the top cap of a paper coned Filter Queen? Even after weeks or months of regular use? Set a Filter Queen/ShopVac/Nilfisk beside a modern plastic Bagless Cyclonic...with all filters removed...and compare how much debris passes through and exits the exhaust end - you'd be so horrified you'd never go bagless again. Filter Queen has never felt compelled to add a paper liner or dust collection bag to their product. Lewyt 55s and Fairfaxs that did & do have simply added a large powder filtration area to the airsteam and provided a convenient way to dispose of the collected dirt without spillage. Empty or full to capacity, I get the same suction readings from a tub vac. With bagged vacuum of whatever design outfitted with multi-layer bags these questions never come up - they too, do not lose appreciable suction in use over the long term. my 17 cents worth. :-) Dave

Post# 54927 , Reply# 12 11/16/2008 at 12:19 (5,632 days old) by danemodsandy ()
Checkrate/Likes *Bagged!* The re-appearance of "bagless" vacuums is proof, if proof were ever needed, that once a technology becomes obsolete, all companies have to do is to wait until everyone has forgotten how dreadful it was, and then re-introduce it as something "new." When I was a kid in the late '50s/early '60s, not too many people had one of the "new-fangled" vacuums that used a disposable bag, except for the lucky few who had Electroluxes. Everyone else had to empty cloth bags. The job of shaking those things out (the same way you do a dust cup on a bagless vac today) was so hated that it was usually foisted off on a kid. Sometimes it was even considered punishment for something. And if a breeze happened to blow just as you were doing this nasty little job - oh, brother! In the '60s, we all switched to vacs with disposable bags for a reason, trust me. No nasty cloud of dust getting all over you as you shook out a cloth bag.

Post# 54933 , Reply# 14 11/16/2008 at 15:07 (5,632 days old) by volsboy1 ()
Checkrate/Likes Bagged Vacuums are By far the best.I dont get it why have a Vacuum that you haved to empty every room you clean and the cloud of dust and then the filters.I had a Dirt Devil Cruiser Vacuum Cleaner cauz we only get powerdrive Vacs.It was terrible I would do half the room and the filter was clogged.I would haved to empty it and wash it a wait till dry.The one thing I liked is the power drive system in it.There electric and it worked great but it was sent back.My Sister bought a Windtunnel 2 baggless and it broke in two weeks.The spining filter gets jammed and breaks and no suction after that.Go to any Vacuum shop and you will see nothing but a bunch of Dysons and others for repairs.I think its a passing fad that Dyson started and will die folks are learning that there messy.You can go over a month on a bagged Vacuum and not haved to do anything to it.All the High dollar Vacuums are bagged for the most part, the Dyson your paying for the name and the Advertisments like Orecks but the Oreck is a hell of alot better than a Dyson and Im not a huge Oreck fan but they do work alot better than Dysons does..

Post# 54963 , Reply# 15 11/16/2008 at 23:48 (5,631 days old) by filterkirbyhoov ()
Checkrate/Likes *Thanks John!* I forgot to check back for a few days... Yes... now THIS is my 2nd time posting here! Morgan: Yes I cleaned what filters I found (and I'm pretty good at exploring and tinkering with what ever I'm looking at). On this Bissell above the "dirt cup" there was a crappy little (and I mean little) foam filter that only filters out larger chunks, like hair, paperclips and perhaps very large crumbs. After I pulled out all the hair and other yucky stuff, I discovered this thing would twist and come out. Hey, it's not MY vacuum and I'd never cleaned it before! I ended up washing this little foam filter and BOY was it caked with dirt! I also found a little pleated paper filter in the back of the machine, but believe it or not, after cleaning out the other filter, when I turned the machine on again, it blew so much dirt out of the exhaust that is completely clogged that paper filter. As I said in my first post starting this thread, EVERY TIME I turned the machine on, even after cleaning, it would blow a small cloud or large puff of DIRT out of the exhaust!! I would flip the switch on, wait 4 or 5 seconds then flip it off, 4 - 5 seconds and back on again. I did this repeatedly 12 - 15 times in secession and it blew dirt out of the machine EVERY TIME! By the time I put the machine away, I had turned it on and off over 25 times to show others the dirt it would blow out. I was just amazed... and that is not in a good way! Again, this Bissell belongs to my company and it has only seen occasional use over the last year since it was purchased because we have a cleaning service that comes in nightly. ========= Filter Queens! My parents had one when I was growing up (actually my Mom still has it!), also a Kirby (Green, with a permanent and the zippered "pocket" you use to brush the inside of the bag when cleaning.) I currently have a Kenmore canister vac with the power head that is probably 14 or 15 years old and still works great (except I need to replace the hose now). I remember cleaning out the Filter Queen and trying to get that paper cone lined up just right when putting it all back together. Yes, I DEFINITELY prefer the disposable bags! IF I were to get a bagless (unlikely) it would probably be a Dyson. But I can buy a helluva lot of for that $400 or $500 the Dyson would cost. Besides, aside from needing a new hose, my Kenmore canister still works great!

Post# 55049 , Reply# 17 11/19/2008 at 00:39 (5,629 days old) by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)
Checkrate/Likes *Well, I know, I'm a drag.......* but, a nice HOOVER convertible with a disposable bag is just fine for me. If I want to get 'wild", Miss Connie HOOVER, or a slimline, etc comes out. I thought it was BRILLIANT that 3 machines, Constellation, portable, and slimlines all take the SAME bag !! talk about cost reduction! By the way, I have a few "handisacs"... not made by HOOVER, but, still great, and brand new. Anyone need/want some?

Post# 55117 , Reply# 18 11/20/2008 at 20:21 (5,628 days old) by eurekaexpress (Hazleton, PA)
Checkrate/Likes *My two cents on bagless* Picked up a bagless windtunnel 2 last week marked down from $319.99 to $134.99 brand new in box.I used it tonight moving furniture, some real cleaning , I was shocked how much dirt was in that dirt cup since I use a kirby sentria or my eureka express twice a week,but when it was time to empty that cup,it is not something I am looking forward to doing again any time soon,if thats not bad enought I had to use my express to clean up the loose dirt in the machine.This was my first and LAST bagless. I'll stick with throwing a full bag away.

Post# 55134 , Reply# 19 11/21/2008 at 06:17 (5,627 days old) by williamr1248 (USA)
Checkrate/Likes *What do you think? bag or bagless?* I used my Hoover Anniversery Convertible bagless yesterday and it is a big mess to empty and clean the chamber and the filter and the dirt you dump and the dirt that goes all over the room. I don't think a lot of buyers realize you still have to replace that filter to maintain the cleaning power. I stoped using my Hoover Convertible for the same reason. Unless you put a new bag in every time I could see a layer of dust on all the blinds,table tops the next day. I can't see any reason to pick up the dirt from the carpeting and then just throw it all over the room on the blinds,furniture and hardwood floors. If you look at the running cleaner when the sunlight is coming in the window you can see the dust just sifting out the paper bag. After I became a collector I started to notice that after you used it only a couple of times you really lose the suction and you start getting that dusty smell. As a collector I love the old machines and appreciate how well they were made and the differences between the different makes and models but as I used the machines some do just shift the dirt from one place to another.

Post# 55151 , Reply# 20 11/21/2008 at 13:11 (5,627 days old) by swiveltop (Galveston, TX)
Checkrate/Likes *Welcome FilterKirbyHoov* Most bagless machines are messy and clog up easily,the worst ones are the ones with the pleated paper filter in the dirt cup that you have to tap out or replace,I'm not fond of bagless but have found a Bissell that I like,I have Kirby's,Filter Queens, Electrolux,Hoovers, a Eureka F+G style upright and a Rainbow that has never been used,among many others,but I have been using this Bissell bagless the most,It was a curbside find,some one used it to clean up drywall dust,so it needed a complete cleaning,I empty the dirt cup after every use,and the two foam filters only need to be washed every once in a while,I have two cats so the Bissell gets the job of vacuuming up the cat litter that I don't want in my good vacuums, It's always amazing how much cat hair this thing picks up,even when the carpet looks clean.

Post# 55257 , Reply# 21 11/23/2008 at 21:56 (5,625 days old) by methodistbill ()
Checkrate/Likes Most of the high end machines are bagged. That should tell you something.

Post# 55440 , Reply# 22 11/27/2008 at 22:19 (5,620 days old) by electroluxkirby ()
Checkrate/Likes *Bagged All The Way* I have a Kirby Legend II, Electrolux AE, Electrolux Olympia, and a Royal Power Tank. I have had several bagless machines in the past Dirt Devil and Hoover Wind Tunnel and hated everyone. To me they are inconvenient. I hated having to clean it after every use, let it dry, and put it back together again. I don't mind changing a bag every once in a while.

Post# 55444 , Reply# 23 11/27/2008 at 23:15 (5,620 days old) by electroluxxxx (��)
Checkrate/Likes from what I hear all bissells are not that bad. I like the one posted in the pic above. I have used one just like that one however I think that the one I used was a different shade of blue. I like how it seperates the small particles from the large ones. it extends the suction power pretty nicely. I actually have a velocity that I use to clean out the laundromat that I work at. I use this because I do not like the vac that they have there. the only complaint that I have about the velocity is that it screams bloody murder I think the motor might not be set right but the suction power is unbelieveable. I have been using my fantom cyclone xt as my daily driver and I tore the whole thing apart and cleaned it top to bottom and now the suction is soo powerful that it cleans anything in its path. I never thought that such a small motor could be so powerful. if I could guess I think it would pull anywhere from 85 to 90 on the meter. but I am a bag person. I only use my fantom because money is kinda tight and I do not have the money to buy bags at the moment.