Thread Number: 36248  /  Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
Super J motor cleaning or maybe more...
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Post# 388697   3/21/2018 at 20:41 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I'm at the beginning of the process of cleaning the motor of one of my Super J's, actually the one that smells weird when I run it.

As can be seen on the first picture, the motor was very dirty, I mean, real dirty, and this was probably enough to make it smell weird when running.

I'm planning of cleaning it thouroughly though, and to achieve this, I have to take it apart. I followed the instructions on another thread (thanks to Nathan Thomas), now I'M at the stage of removing the fans.

I unscrewed the 3/4 inch nut that holds them, but the fans don't want to come off. Should I just put a bit a WD40 on the shaft and pull stronger?

Also, I'm a bit concerned about what the inside of the fans housing look like (2nd picture). All these spiral scratches mean that the tabs of the bottom fan touch the housing, is this caused by a worn bearing?

Brushes still 1 inch-long are still good or should I change them?



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Post# 388698 , Reply# 1   3/21/2018 at 22:01 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Brushes look fine, I would leave them alone, as long as they're not oily.

The spiral 'scratches' look VERY weird. The thing is, when a rotating part touches something, it'll make a circular scratch. I'm willing to bet those are either just dirt marks, or corrosion/rust/pitting marks... Unless you have end play on the motor shaft, I wouldn't worry about it. Likely, that spiral is how the air moves in that chamber, leaving deposits in that shape, or causing micro-scratches in that shape that take off the plating and allow the cover to rust in that pattern over the years. You might actually find they'll wipe off. Try it.

I don't have a picture of your fan blade, so I don't know. If the blade is metal (rather, the part of the blade that surrounds the shaft), and you're patient, soak around shaft on both sides of the blade with WD or PB blaster, repeatedly over a couple days. That should soak in well enough to unfreeze them, but it won't necessarily make it much easier, only possible. If you've done that, or if it's plastic, have an assistant firmly hold the blade with both hands, like they're choking somebody, and you take a medium-small hammer and tap on the motor shaft firmly, but not hard enough to damage the end of the shaft. If the shaft takes a nut on the end, a good idea is to get another - sacrificial - nut and screw it on, leaving it a good turn loose past the end of the shaft, and hammer that as hard as you like (providing that force won't bend or break the blade while it's being held). It'll destroy the nut, but the nut should protect the shaft.


Post# 388700 , Reply# 2   3/21/2018 at 22:24 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Aluminium bottom fan came off after a WD40 shot on the shaft, but the plastic top fan didn't move at all, and i'm not sure where it is supposed to separate. Can you show on the picture?

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Post# 388706 , Reply# 3   3/22/2018 at 01:31 by Electrolux-dude (Canyon, TX)        
Super J

The plastic part is stationary. The whole fan housing comes off. The bottom fan will pull off after the housing comes off. My email address is: thetrain1979@gmail.com
Nathan
Electrolux Dude


Post# 388707 , Reply# 4   3/22/2018 at 01:54 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
I'm... a little lost tbh. Not entirely sure.

Post# 388715 , Reply# 5   3/22/2018 at 06:20 by blknblu (CT)        

you need to place the motor with the shaft down, and spray some penetrating fluid on the seams. I have attached a pic of the disassembled motor.
Patience is required. Use a sharpie to mark parts for easier assembly.



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Post# 388717 , Reply# 6   3/22/2018 at 06:35 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Thanks for the picture, blknblu. The seams are so tight it looks like it's a single part. Will they separate at the point shown by red arrow?

Is there a bearing under the small cap on top of the motor? Will it be possible to pack it with bearing grease if I remove this cap?


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Post# 388736 , Reply# 7   3/22/2018 at 10:41 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Ok i tapped on the 2nd housing with a screwdriver handle and it came out by itself, with gravity help.

I went as far in the motor as I can, I even removed the two screws and metal tabs (or whatever they're called) that hold the fields, should I pull them out for a really good clean or not?

The shaft is a bit gouged and marred where is runs in the bottom bearing, the bearing itself seems a bit loose, is it easy to find a replacement?


Post# 388751 , Reply# 8   3/22/2018 at 18:11 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I found a new bearing at a local vacuum store for 7$, the guy was amazed when I arrived with the SuperJ top cover ! Part number isn't exactly the same(608LU instead of 608Z) but they seem identical.

I finally removed the small cap on top of the motor and found a thick felt pad in there, is it intended to be oiled periodically, or to be oiled at all? On the other side of the top bushing is another cap with a washer made of a weird material, is it to catch extra oil dripping along the shaft from the felt pad?

Also, I put a picture of very light pitting on the armature.

I'm a the stage of cleaning the motor itself before I put it back together.


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Post# 388773 , Reply# 9   3/22/2018 at 21:05 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Is the front bearing a ball bearing and the back one a bronze bearing? I'm not sure why there would be a felt pad there unless it was NOT a ball bearing. Does it seem like there's a spot to oil it from the outside?

Oftentimes in part numbers you'll find one portion is the same, and another different, especially when it's just a couple numbers 608 and a couple letters LU. Likely the bearing number is just 608 and the letters after signify some particular detail that's different, a design change perhaps, likely one number supersedes the previous.

That little spot on the field coil looks almost like it's burned. That could be... bad. In the future, anyway, because it was working before you disassembled, right? I'd recommend a good cleaning with soapy water and a tooth brush. Be sure to 'rinse' with clean water, but you don't want the whole thing soaked, just a tiny bit of water to clean it only. Once it's good and dry, examine it, if it looks like the varnish is peeling or burnt off, you might want to pick up a can of insulating varnish and spray down that spot with a couple coats.

That being said, it's not the end of the world if you just left it like that.

Can has pics of the other bearing, the one that he felt cap went over?


Post# 388788 , Reply# 10   3/22/2018 at 22:34 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Yes the top bearing is a bronze bearing, and it feels very tight, so I'll leave it alone.

Yes, the motor was working before I started tearing it apart, and pretty strong, just a bit noisy due to the worn fan bearing, probably.

The felt pad cap doesn't have any hole in it to add oil, but it is a bit oily in there, so I needed to clarify that point. THe cap is still off, waiting for an answer.

Also, I'll have to cut some thin foam to replace the one that fell apart when I took the plastic motor cover off, and then it'll be a job done, I guess.


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Post# 388799 , Reply# 11   3/23/2018 at 01:23 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Well then. That felt in the cap needs to be saturated in oil. But not so much that it tries to drip out. I would fill the cap with oil, then leave it on its side overnight for the excess to drain off. When you assemble, add a couple drops of oil right on the end of the shaft at the bronze bushing, in fact, you may want to do that right away, to let it soak in. Hopefully that bearing is not completely dry.

As there's no oiler, I would assume that's meant to be 'lifetime' lubricated. As in, the oil they put in there in the factory should last the life of the unit (how long was the warranty?). Pretty sure you're well past that point.


Post# 388803 , Reply# 12   3/23/2018 at 07:03 by brewsky (va)        

The letters after the bearing number indicate the type of shield....z for metal, lu for rubber. (one side)
Metal being better for higher temperatures and rpm, and rubber better for sealing out dirt.
The bronze bushing is likely oilite (oil impregnated). You can tell by looking with a magnifying glass and seeing it looks dirty, black spotted, or porous.
I've heard of soaking the oilite bushings in hot oil and letting them cool before removing to replenish the oil lost over time, but I'm not sure it is necessary,....but couldn't hurt.


Post# 388804 , Reply# 13   3/23/2018 at 07:18 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Lifetime lubricated, that's exactly what I thought when I saw how it's made !

Post# 388806 , Reply# 14   3/23/2018 at 08:10 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Brewsky, thanks for the info.

I'll get some oil and some foam today to finish the project.

The guy at the vacuum store said he wouldn't put any oil in this felt, because he's afraid it would retain dirt!

I'm not, because even if the motor was dirty like he&& outside , it was pretty clean inside that cap. I simply should avoid to put too much oil, like madman suggested.


Post# 388833 , Reply# 15   3/23/2018 at 15:28 by brewsky (va)        

Would be interested in how the foam is placed?
Is it sandwiched between two motor parts, or surrounding the motor mount?


Post# 388839 , Reply# 16   3/23/2018 at 16:14 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

it was between the plastic cover and the motor.

Post# 388845 , Reply# 17   3/23/2018 at 16:55 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I put everything back together, no part left except the used bearing !

I replaced the original foam with autoadhesive weather strips cut to dimensions.

For the records, I use a piece of scotch tape to hold the nuts in the socket while positioning on the motor mounting bolts down inside the can.

Machine works fine, there is still a bit of this weird smell but it is not as disturbing as it was before.


Post# 388858 , Reply# 18   3/23/2018 at 20:35 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

My two babies side by side ! The one on the left is the one I took apart for cleaning. I still having to fix (glue) the cord spool and the cord itself (plug), but they both work well.

The one on the right is a bit better, the motor runs a bit stronger and it turns longer when I shut it down. It has probably been better taken care of and used with more respect.


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Post# 388863 , Reply# 19   3/23/2018 at 21:26 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

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Noice.

Post# 388868 , Reply# 20   3/23/2018 at 21:58 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

thank you everyone for your help, I appreciate a lot.

I'd have other questions about the old hoses leaking, but I'll start a new thread, I guess.


Post# 388870 , Reply# 21   3/23/2018 at 22:09 by blknblu (CT)        

You did well.
Here are two of my early refurbs. Many more since then.
Super J is with my son & the Olympia One is in storage.
For the Olympia One, I finally found some axle brackets & have put the original wheels back on.


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Post# 388871 , Reply# 22   3/23/2018 at 22:21 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Your SuperJ has a dark robe !

My older brother was supposed to go buy another Elux for me in Quebec City, close to his place, for a few dollars, it is an older model than the SUperJ, seller says the motor stopped working last week, and he doesn't have a clue what could be the issue.

Basically I bought it for the accessories, but hey, maybe I could fix it with some help. It's a green machine, I'll try to post a picture.



Post# 388873 , Reply# 23   3/23/2018 at 22:24 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Here it is.

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Post# 388903 , Reply# 24   3/24/2018 at 04:09 by brewsky (va)        

Nice!...The run-down time for my super j motor after switching it off is 7 to 8 seconds....how does that compare you yours after cleaning?

As for the odor, the weird smell may just be ozone from the brushes?

When I took the top off mine I found these fragrance chips laying in the diffusers under the sliding exhaust door. Since the word "ozone" was on the chips, I thought maybe they were some kind of ozone-reducing material.....but they smell pretty good, so I'm guessing that is just a brand name for some kind of fragrance.


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Post# 388910 , Reply# 25   3/24/2018 at 06:27 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

There were two small thin scented square that fell off when I removed the top cover, they smell almost like fabric softener sheets. I'll simply put them back in through the blower door?

The one I cleaned run down in 6 seconds, the other one in 7 to 8 seconds, like yours, both with very pleasant notes !


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Post# 388911 , Reply# 26   3/24/2018 at 06:52 by brewsky (va)        

Thanks,....yes, I would just drop them in.....I am going to re-use the ones that came out as they do smell nice!

Or maybe you could shop for some new ones more to your preference


Post# 388912 , Reply# 27   3/24/2018 at 07:06 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Ozone from the brushes is a good hypothesis, I wonder why one smells like that but none of the others I own...

Post# 388913 , Reply# 28   3/24/2018 at 07:37 by brewsky (va)        

Good question....
Possibilities..
1. Others also have some kind of odor masking scent chips inside

2. One produces more spark at the brushes than the others

3. It is not ozone you are smelling, but something else.


Post# 388930 , Reply# 29   3/24/2018 at 11:09 by Paul (MN)        
Reply #23

The green cleaner is one of the Canadian Electrolux classics, made from 1968 to 1973. It was designated by two slightly different models: ZB89 and 89E. The latter indicated the power hose inlet that was added around 1970.

Have you connected with avid Canadian vac collector/resarcher, Doug Smith? If not, here's his website: smithcollection.altervista.org/....

He is very knowledgable about many cleanersóCanadian and non-Canadian.

_____


I understand that the Super J 1401s (and upright model 1363s in harvest gold) were sold in Canada from around 1976 to 1977 due to a factory workers strike. The model B22 Canadian Electrolux shampooer-polisher's base was even painted the same color as the Super J 1401 during that time, and a "J" was added to the model ID to indicate the different color.

Btw, thanks for posting all the details about your motor work. That will be helpful to others who want to do the same. Your Super J 1401s look great!

I've attached a photo showing the Electrolux set of honey gold cleaners (I was corrected by someone after I annotated the photo that the salesman's award, the Golden G from the 1960s, was metallic gold and the '70s line was honey gold; he was probably one of those boys in school who had the 64-count Crayola box with the sharpeneróhaha).


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Post# 388954 , Reply# 30   3/24/2018 at 13:18 by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

kirbylux77's profile picture
Paul, good info above about the Canadian Electrolux ZB89 & ZB89E. But one small correction to your information: The powerhead receptacle for the electric hose was ALWAYS on the 89, right from the start. You were thinking of the 86 & 88 there. If memory serves correct, it was the second version of the 86 & 88, from 1966 to 1968, that saw the addition of the bumpers & the powerhead receptacle. As for the electric hose, I believe that was 1971 it was finally changed from the outboard cord on the outside of the straight suction hose to the electric hose.

Rob


Post# 388958 , Reply# 31   3/24/2018 at 13:55 by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)        

eurekastar's profile picture
Congratulations on a job well done! About the only way I know to effectively rid the vacuum of the funky smell is to remove the motor field from the bell housing and wash the bell housing thoroughly with degreaser. If you don't want to remove the field, then use a brush to get as much accumulated dirt and carbon dust out as possible. Then I use alcohol with Q-Tips and rags to get into the nooks and crannies!

I love your determination. That's how we learn!


Post# 388968 , Reply# 32   3/24/2018 at 16:24 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Thanks everybody for your kind words. I don'T think I'd been successfull with that little project without your help, I probably would have broken something in the process.

As for the SuperJ I opened up for cleaning, not only does it smell like ozone when I begin to use it, but it seems it heats up significantly faster than my other J and the run down time is shorter by 2-3 seconds. Is it a sign the motor is sort of "tired" ?

Thank you Paul for the infos.


Post# 388979 , Reply# 33   3/24/2018 at 20:05 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Is that what you call the fields ?

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Post# 388982 , Reply# 34   3/24/2018 at 20:36 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Yes, that's the field. It's technically an assembly of the two field coils (painted red on yours) and the iron/steel core or whatever it's called.

If you say the motor heats up fast, and there were those spots on the field coil that we were skeptical about, it's possible the field coils have an internal short. Get a wattmeter, or ammeter, actually most multimeters have an amperage setting, and run the vac through it to measure the amps/watts, and compare against the vac's rating. If it's way off, you have a problem.

If it's not, well, some motors just behave differently. Likely the smell you have is a combo of ozone from brush arcing, oil and bearing grease, and some remaining dust on the thing. And the spin-down time could simply be the new ball bearing, it does take a bit of break-in.

You sure the motor's not binding? Tried spinning it by hand, and listen for binding?


Post# 388985 , Reply# 35   3/24/2018 at 20:54 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I'm not sure what you mean by "binding". Yes, I turned the motor by hand, it was obviously a bit harder than with the worn bearing, but I'd say it was smooth and not sticking .

Post# 389036 , Reply# 36   3/25/2018 at 17:00 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Binding = sticking. New bearing makes it harder to turn? Like I said, they need to be broken in. Wouldn't worry about that.

Post# 389043 , Reply# 37   3/25/2018 at 17:34 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

You need to pay more attention to how the brushes spark. The spark leaking out both sides of the brush should be small & even. Most of us serious about small motor repair use a commutator stone to seat new brushes. Lots of Youtube vids on that and how to use them. You also need to test the armature plates themselves; 90 degrees opposed and then side by side. This tests the integrity of the armature. Again, Youtube vids on that. And there should be a 'valley' between the commutator plates. When the commutator plates wear down, not only do they get uneven, but that 'valley' starts to disappear...it's to keep the plates separate but equal, sorta speaking.

 

You need an Elmer in this to walk you through your first couple of motor rebuilds. I've tried before in here and it just doesn't usually work from a keyboard.

 

Kevin


Post# 389044 , Reply# 38   3/25/2018 at 17:41 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Kevin, thanks for the info. I didn't replace the brushes, these inside are the old ones, as they were still a tad longer than one inch.

I'm waiting for my kill-a-watt multimeter to arrive by mail, I'll do the amp test with the motor running as soon as I get it and report my readings.


Post# 389045 , Reply# 39   3/25/2018 at 17:51 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

 If you have a VOM, you can test the armature very easily from a Youtube vid. Most of the dealers replaced the Super J armatures if they had any sort of motor failure...was just easier that way (with new brushes). I've seen literally boxes of used armatures at older Elux dealers. I have boxes of new Super J armatures, but I also have a small pile of unrestored Super J's.

 

If your armature doesn't test out, doing anything more with the motor is mute. Amp draw is a somewhat reasonable way to deduce if your armature is OK.

 

Kevin


Post# 389050 , Reply# 40   3/25/2018 at 19:35 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I had a look at a few videos on YouTube and now I know what you mean by small and even arcing and armature testing and coil testing, thanks.

Some fun to come ! I have a regular multimeter that I will use for the static testing of the armature and the coils, and I'll use the kill-a-watt for the dynamic testing.

Do I absolutely need contact cleaner or is isopropyl alcohol ok?


Post# 389057 , Reply# 41   3/25/2018 at 21:43 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

I have used denatureed alcohol for cleaning for decades. Only thing better than that is trichloroethane and CA decided that was a carcinogen to breathe, so it's pretty much outlawed in box stores at least.

 

Isopropyl doesn't have the cleaning strength of denatured alcohol.....and isopropyl should be 99% in use or you're putting water on your project. Just don't remove any of the protective covering of the coil or armature wiring.

 

I actually know how to make the coating for field and armature wires. But if things don't test out the motors are junk....would require them to be rewound....which is impractical with so many motors still out there yet to find and of course the expense. But...if you have say a power supply for some vintage electronic unit that's fried....sometimes it pays to rewind.

 

Kevin

 

 


Post# 389120 , Reply# 42   3/26/2018 at 17:17 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I found some denaturated alcohol at my Home Hardware, 1 litre for 14$, not cheap, it is 85% ethanol and 15% methanol, will it be ok for cleaning contacts?

I also received my current monitor. I tested all of my Electrolux vacuum cleaners , including AP-100, E-2000 and both SuperJs (I don't have my new-to-me BJ89 here).

Here are the readings without and with the power nozzle

AP-100:__________5.7 A______and_______7.1 A (I don't have the specs for the PN)

E-2000___________8.0 A________________9.7 A within specs

Best SuperJ______7.7 A_(specs 7.2 A)_____9.3 A (specs 9.7 A)

Cleaned SUperJ___8.2 A________________9.7 A


Both SuperJs are out of specs without the PN, the best one by 7% and the one I cleaned by 14%. I'm a bit surprised they are within specs with the PN, though.

I'll definitely have to take it apart again and test the armature and coils.

I'd be interested in knowing the specs for the AP-100, it's the more noisy of the group (sort of grinding while running down).


Post# 389141 , Reply# 43   3/26/2018 at 23:24 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Honestly don't think you need to bother with the 'best' super j. It's only out of whack by 0.5A, that's negligible. The cleaned one, however, is off by a whole amp. That's... kind of a lot.

Something's up with that one. I'd suspect that field has an internal short. You know you can test each field coil separately, the assembly should have 4 wires, 2 go to the brushes, and 2 are input line voltage. So ohm across 1 brush wire and 1 line wire on the same side, for each individual field coil. In fact, you probably don't need to take apart the good super j (to compare values), because I'd wager one coil would read different from the other. You'd know immediately. If one of the two coils has a lower resistance than the other, that's the smoking gun. Or one segment of the armature.

Also, fun fact, denatured alcohol is called that because it has been 'denatured,' in this case, it has been deliberately poisoned with methanol so you won't drink it (and the gov't won't lose the tax revenue from people drinking it instead of vodka). In all fairness, 90% isopropyl rubbing alcohol would really do the same job, all alcohol has some measure of water in it, well, outside of laboratory conditions, anyhow.


Post# 389169 , Reply# 44   3/27/2018 at 06:23 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Madman , I don't plan on opening the good SUperJ for testing, just the one I cleaned, which is the same that has the cracked cord spool.

I did a research on YouTube and found two good tutorials for testing these motors with a multimeter, I'll follow the procedure and report my readings.



Post# 389176 , Reply# 45   3/27/2018 at 08:32 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

If anyone has the specs for the AP-100 with the power nozzle, i'll be glad to compare with my current readings, the only spec I saw on the machine was 5.0 A

Post# 389222 , Reply# 46   3/27/2018 at 18:09 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I just finished testing the armature and the coils and everything looks fine.

My readings are very, very consistant from stack to stack with both 180 degrees and side-to-side tests. The third test showed no continuity between the stacks and the armature.

As for the coils, both resistance readings are very similar, and I didn't find any continuity between the laminated stack and any of the coil wire.

Are there other tests I should perform while i'M in there ?


Post# 389256 , Reply# 47   3/27/2018 at 22:58 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Hmm... there probably is some other test that I'm not aware of.

Post# 389265 , Reply# 48   3/28/2018 at 00:32 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

There is no comparison between the cleaning power of denatured alcohol and even 99% isopropyl alcohol. I don't want to get into a debate over it, or the chemical differences. I could use either and have used both chemicals. If there was no significant difference, I'd use isopropyl as it's much cheaper. The water content in isopropyl alcohol less than 99% has always been an issue in vintage electronics.

 

Kevin


Post# 389275 , Reply# 49   3/28/2018 at 02:07 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

François, if all the tests prove positive I wouldn't go any further electrically. If you knew the factory RPM of a unloaded Super J motor, you could test that with the correct equipment. I think you found your answers. Make sure your brushes have minimal spark on both sides of the brush and when you sping the motor by hand it's free & smooth from any roughness. 

 

Only thing that concerns me from your work description is the wind down. You say it's worse now with a new bearing. Any work I've ever done on a vac motor has always made the wind down better, not worse. I don't know what's going on there. A quality replacement bearing shouldn't have to 'break in' and cause your wind down to decrease. That's all I can offer you without being there. 

 

Kevin


Post# 389276 , Reply# 50   3/28/2018 at 02:57 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

The bronze bushing is likely oilite (oil impregnated). You can tell by looking with a magnifying glass and seeing it looks dirty, black spotted, or porous.
I've heard of soaking the oilite bushings in hot oil and letting them cool before removing to replenish the oil lost over time, but I'm not sure it is necessary,....but couldn't hurt.

 

This is Frakenscience. Sintered bushings that are oil impregnated are either 'dry' impregnated or 'wet' impregnated. A 'dry' impregnated sintered bushing should never be wet oiled by any lay process. What this can cause is galling eventually, because you'll never get all the dry lubricant out of the bushing. 'Wet' impregnated sintered bushings can simply be cleaned with solvent and reoiled. If it is small enough you can place it on your thumb, fill it with oil then place another finger on top and squeeze the new oil through the sintered bushing. The oil will sweat through to the outside and if does so evenly the bearing is OK. Use 20wt or 30wt non-detergent oil depending on the application.

 

Kevin

 

 


Post# 389279 , Reply# 51   3/28/2018 at 06:00 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I don't think I ever wrote that the wind-down time is worse now than before, it is just worse than the "good" SuperJ, the one that doesn't smell weird.

My multimeter is an old Mastercraft with different scales for volts and ohms and amps. It is not digital. I put the selector on RX1 which is the lowest setting on mine. I'll redo the tests and see if my readings are consistant again.

How would you explain that this vac is out of specs without PN and in specs with it?

I also realized that all of my cleaners draw less amps after a few minutes than after they start, let's say 5% less, is it a result of the armature becoming more conductive when hot?

I also would need a hint on how I could have the motor running while it's out of the vac body. I'd need leads, I suppose, to connect the motor to the connectors on the back of the reel cord assembly ?


Post# 389322 , Reply# 52   3/28/2018 at 17:44 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

I misunderstood then....I though you said its wind down was now longer than before. 

 

Analog meters are great, especially if they are kept calibrated....you get no 'ghost' readings as is the norm in digitals. You can tell a lot with a big analog meter and how the needle swings.

 

I've never done the spec thing with Electrolux motors....more interested in actual lift & CFM. Most all electric motors of this type will draw more amps on start-up and then reduce a bit while running easy. Work them hard though and they'll draw up to maximum.

 

Yeah, just jumper the wires to power the motor itself....be mindful of the torque and the juice.

 

Kevin



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Real1shep's LINK

Post# 389324 , Reply# 53   3/28/2018 at 17:51 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

...and this link:

Do ALL the tests and if they fail one test, they're probably no good.

 

Kevin



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Real1shep's LINK

Post# 389330 , Reply# 54   3/28/2018 at 19:10 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Exactly what I did , plus this one:









Post# 389331 , Reply# 55   3/28/2018 at 19:26 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Just did both tests again, with same very consistant readings and no continuity.


Post# 389334 , Reply# 56   3/28/2018 at 20:09 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I plan on bolting the motor back in the can without its plastic cover before watching sparks or arcing, so torque and juice won't be hazards.

Post# 389348 , Reply# 57   3/28/2018 at 22:17 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Good plan....looks like we found the same two links. I also watched a guy rewind a armature....not for the faint hearted. Don't know how anyone would have the time. The copper wire was coated but they don't show any coating other than that. There are services too that do that. As I said earlier, unless it's super rare it's just easier to find another one.

 

The Super J's when new could suck the skin off a moose belly. Electrolux Canada might have had something stronger, but that was our tour de force here.

 

Kevin


Post# 389350 , Reply# 58   3/28/2018 at 23:35 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
@real1shep The guy probably had the time to rewind the motor because having motors rewound is very expensive. And it's not cost-effective unless it's a big expensive motor, or something antique and irreplaceable. Never rewound one myself, I'm sure it's tedious, but it's not complicated. You know they sell motor insulating varnish, in rattle cans and in liquid form. So one could do the job properly if one were so inclined.

Post# 389375 , Reply# 59   3/29/2018 at 11:21 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

I  watched the video and it made my eyes burn. No thanks, unless as I've stated many time before, it was something rare. Then it's just my time. It's not daunting, just time-consuming.  In chainsaws we have an electronic module manufacturer called SEM's. They had units right underneath the flywheel that got too hot and the pulse capacitors fried. A EE solved the problem by removing the potting, wiring right to the PCB and installing a remote pulse capacitor outside the flywheel. The whole process is very tedious, but there are no choices other than to buy used modules and take your chance.

 

Point being that electronically, anything is possible given enough time. I think the rewinding vid I watched was sponsored by a tech college. Great project for students. Part of me wants to try it, but meh....don't want to give up the time.

 

Kevin


Post# 389417 , Reply# 60   3/29/2018 at 22:12 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I am not interested in rewiring this motor anyhow.

Post# 389424 , Reply# 61   3/29/2018 at 23:46 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Giant waste of time when there are still parts out there. As I said before, it's usually the armature that goes bad on Elux motors. Yours tested out OK. A good working Super J should pull 80". In their sales lit it could pull up six steel balls they said. Four balls was the usual test the salesperson did in your house as a demo. My G pulled 3 and almost a fourth one when the Elux salesperson was selling me our first Diamond J.  She had a hard time overcoming that and I didn't let her forget it either....lol. 

 

Kevin


Post# 389501 , Reply# 62   3/31/2018 at 01:46 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

In TRYING to watch the video---CRAPPY production and music.Armatures are usually wound by machine at the motor factory-same with the stators.Best just to get a new motor if you can.If not try to find a donor machine with a good motor.

Post# 389593 , Reply# 63   4/1/2018 at 20:53 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

I've seen machines that hobbiest use to rewind motors. Kinda funny to watch....

 

Like I said, armatures are usually the culprit in Elux made motors. Or....you just wait for a used motor to pop up, test, repair and use.

 

Kevin


Post# 389600 , Reply# 64   4/2/2018 at 01:32 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I don't know if they are still available--you could get a small winder used by radio hams and repairmen to wind radio type coil,transformer bobbins-but not motors.You could cran kthe machine by hand or turn it with a variable speed drill.worked well.

Post# 389638 , Reply# 65   4/2/2018 at 15:01 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

No, I've seen some contraptions on Youtube for rewinding field coils and armatures......probably home brew, but interesting to watch.

 

Kevin


Post# 389869 , Reply# 66   4/5/2018 at 16:19 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Update: Earlier today I ran the motor without its plastic cover to have a good sight at the brushes, and they are clearly making lots of sparks on one side, and almost none on the other side. I made a video of this with my smart phone, but I'm just not smart enough myself to load it on my computer, meh !

So, what's next? Should I replace both brushes while I'm in it ? Will it cure the arcing ?


Post# 389874 , Reply# 67   4/5/2018 at 16:30 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Commutator stone first. You do that with the motor running....adjusts/evens the shape of the commutator to the brushes. Brushes need to have plenty of length though for this process....usually do this when the brushes are new. Super J brushes are about $14 for a pair soooo.....? 

 

There are some Youtube vids on this, but look for the ones that are for smaller electric motors. Doesn't serve any purpose to watch using a stone on a big electric motor.

 

Someday I'm gonna get a camera set up on the work bench and document rebuilding/testing motors.

 

Kevin

 


Post# 389875 , Reply# 68   4/5/2018 at 16:35 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Thnaks Kevin, my brushes are still 1 inch long so there is plenty left. I had a look at some videos on YouTube and it seems this is an easy process, just gently pushing the stone against the commutators while the motor is running, isn't it?

Where would I buy a commutator stone here in Canada ? I don't even know what it's called in French...


Post# 389877 , Reply# 69   4/5/2018 at 16:42 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Yes, exactly perpendicular to the commutator. I found some on eBay and when I linked some members to them, the price had doubled. Soooooo..I don't know if I got a good deal for two, or the place is just screwing people now.

 

I have no idea in Canada where you can get the smaller stones, sorry. They look very much in appearance only like the soapstone markers you buy for welding.

 

Kevin


Post# 389885 , Reply# 70   4/5/2018 at 18:20 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I'll try to source them locally first, beginning with my Elux center.

Post# 389890 , Reply# 71   4/5/2018 at 19:38 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Another question about the SuperJ: I didn't find any filter in the rear end, unlike the others Elux's that I own, is it normal ?

I noticed that both my SuperJ's were pretty dirty along the sides where the air goes out, and it was obviously carbon powder off of the brushes, so I wonder if it is a bad design (no filter at all) or just my cans that are missing a filter ? What model of filter could that be?


Post# 389898 , Reply# 72   4/5/2018 at 21:11 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
I suppose it depends on how bad your commutator is, but I usually just wrap a bunch of masking tape around the armature shaft, chuck it into a power drill, run the drill, and clean the commutator with a scotch-brite pad.

Hang on. I have a hunch.

Before you do anything else, try this: take the sparky brush out of the holder. Turn it 180 degrees. Put it back in.

Retest.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO MadMan's LINK on eBay


Post# 389903 , Reply# 73   4/5/2018 at 21:55 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

I just assume that everyone marks their carbon brushes so they put them back in the same. It's easy to put the worn brush back in 180 degrees wrong. But that's what the stone is for; to even everything back up again with new brushes.

 

Mostly the dirt you see on motors is dust/dirt that got past a cheap, paper bag. For your motor's sake, use a HEPA Type C bag and then a secondary filter like Aerus has between the end of your bag and the motor.

 

Kevin

 

 


Post# 389910 , Reply# 74   4/5/2018 at 22:42 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Here is a picture of the sparks after a few minutes of running with the left brush (bottom on the picture) rotated 180 degrees as per Madman suggestion. Arcing is still a bit more obvious on the same side as before (bottom side on picture) , but a lot less than this afternoon.

  View Full Size
Post# 389914 , Reply# 75   4/5/2018 at 23:07 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

here is what's left of the black dust under the top cover, I removed 99% of it.

  View Full Size
Post# 389915 , Reply# 76   4/5/2018 at 23:08 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Actually I thought about a filter past the motor like the rectangular one in the AP-100 and E2000 and so on.

Post# 389927 , Reply# 77   4/6/2018 at 03:21 by compactc9guy (Bathurst New Brunswick Canada )        
well then

compactc9guy's profile picture
Welll if you can fix your super j i can fix my model ZB 86 need a motor hose and handle for it im on the hunt il post pic as i go along and il read some tips thanks.

Post# 389932 , Reply# 78   4/6/2018 at 07:11 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

That SuperJ is something impressive, it's very powerful !

After I put it all together yesterday evening I used it in my apartment and went to the point where I left a quite big screwdriver on the floor, and it sucked it up !!!


Post# 389971 , Reply# 79   4/6/2018 at 14:57 by vacuumlad1650 (Chicago Suburbs)        

vacuumlad1650's profile picture
Blue sparks are normal. Any Orange sparks shooting off is a bad arc.

Post# 389972 , Reply# 80   4/6/2018 at 15:13 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Blue sparks are normal...and even on both sides. What has happened is you put a worn brush in 180 degrees from how it had worn in originally. And since it ran that way for awhile, it was trying to re-break in the other way.....so that's why the spark is not perfectly even, although you have reversed it back to its original postion. You even have to return the brush to the same side it came out of.....if you want to reuse it.

 

In that era, few if any manufacturers where very conscious and alert to things like alergins and fibromyalgia. So.....nobody thought much about brush dust either. You can't really blame Elux or anyone else for that matter. Now there would be no excuse not to consider these things in the design.

 

Kevin


Post# 389987 , Reply# 81   4/6/2018 at 16:45 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I had a few orange sparks on both sides, from time to time.

The black dust isn't good for health nor it is aesthetic when it sticks to every part of the vacuum body, they apparently didn't think about that either.


Post# 390006 , Reply# 82   4/6/2018 at 20:46 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
"Arcing is still a bit more obvious on the same side as before (bottom side on picture) , but a lot less than this afternoon."

I helped! :3

I bet the brush was the wrong way around, that's all. It should wear back in after a bit of running.


Post# 390023 , Reply# 83   4/7/2018 at 01:36 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

It takes a long time for vacs like the Elux to shed that much carbon brush dust. Of the dozen or so Diamond J 's I've restored for example, I don't ever remember seeing much in the way of carbon dust. 'course I have no way of knowing how much escaped into the air......as they learned with the Diamond J motor, arid/desert climates had a bad effect on the commutator and brushes. 

 

This could be a design thing with the Super J's.....big motor, big brushes, big mess.....I haven't put yrs of use on any Super J yet.

 

Kevin


Post# 390058 , Reply# 84   4/7/2018 at 12:41 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

"This could be a design thing with the Super J's.....big motor, big brushes, big mess"

I like that!

I did measured the current this SuperJ draws again, after a few minutes of use, and the reading was 8.1 amps. COnsidering the cord has two repairs that become a bit hot during use (current loss) , I suppose that the reading could be below 8 amps (not so off compared to specs) with a good cord , does it make sense ?


Post# 390080 , Reply# 85   4/7/2018 at 18:21 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Yes, that makes sense....a motor trying to draw through bad cord repairs will fractionally draw more amperage. Most high power vacs have cords that are one size too small anyway.....they do that for suppleness and cord winders. I tried putting a decent cord on a 1205 winder once and it never was satisfactory. I could have shortened it to work, but then I lost my length.

 

Kevin


Post# 390131 , Reply# 86   4/8/2018 at 11:20 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

last update: I used this SuperJ yesterday and pulled the cord gently out but apparently too much, because I heard the same noise, the noise the spring makes when it slips off of the spool inside...

I'm a bit upset with this...I think I will source a good cord, install it in the spool without the spring and simply wind it around the can...


Post# 390135 , Reply# 87   4/8/2018 at 11:49 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

The biggest trick to Elux cord winders is to leave about three spring wraps on the spool with the cord pulled ALL the way out. Your problem is common to a newbie and Elux cord winders.

 

Kevin


Post# 390159 , Reply# 88   4/8/2018 at 20:21 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
You should probably address the cord issue. It's kind of... not good if a repaired part of a wire is getting hotter than the rest of the wire. It'll melt and let the pixies out eventually.

Bummer about the cord winder. Realshep's probably right, winding any kind of clockspring is a huge pain because you pretty much need to know exactly how many turns it needs at a certain point.


Post# 390224 , Reply# 89   4/9/2018 at 17:48 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

You mean three spring wraps around the big spool, right?

Post# 390633 , Reply# 90   4/17/2018 at 22:22 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I just pulled the spring out for the third time. Most of it has slipped off of the small spool and was rolled tight to itself, so it wasn't as scary as the other times.

I did it tonight because I bought a 20-foot long used cord that looks like new for 10 bucks this afternoon and thought it was another good reason to take the spool off again.

I knew the spool was cracked but when I removed the metal bottom spool to expose the cord connections I found a broken post (see picture). I'll have to fix that with my RapidFix glue.





  View Full Size
Post# 390639 , Reply# 91   4/17/2018 at 23:51 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Depending how much room is available around that broken boss, I would use your Rapid fix glue, then later, build up a wall of epoxy glue around it for extra strength.

Post# 390645 , Reply# 92   4/18/2018 at 06:40 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Good suggestion, Madman !

Actually, I realized all of three posts will need some reinforcement.


Post# 390692 , Reply# 93   4/19/2018 at 00:34 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

You want about three wraps minimum around the small spring spool when the cord is completely pulled out if I recall correctly. Whichever the spool is that has the least amount of spring wraps when the cord is completely pulled out (my memory is not the best anymore unless I'm working on something). Of course, you have to repair anything that's broken too, like those posts.  

 

A lot of Elux's were thrown in closets when the recoils quit working. If the local dealer wasn't on top of checking on past customers, the tanks had dim fates. I don't even want to think how many Elux tanks went to the landfill for minor problems.

 

Kevin


Post# 390695 , Reply# 94   4/19/2018 at 06:41 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Doug,

The only written reference I have to reinstall the spring is for the ZB89 model, it says 3.5 turns around the spool drum (big spool) when 18 foot of cord is out.

Could it apply to the SUperJ as well?


Post# 390696 , Reply# 95   4/19/2018 at 06:45 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Sorry Kevin, I called you Doug...

Post# 390744 , Reply# 96   4/19/2018 at 20:13 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

recent update: denaturated alcohol is very good at removing epoxy glue from fingers !



  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 390782 , Reply# 97   4/20/2018 at 15:31 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

Today I had to go see my electronic tech for a turntable and a phone so I brought my new-to-me vac cord and asked him to crimp new connectors at the spool end.

Then I went back home and started to reel the spring back to the spools. I found out that the easiest way to deal with the spring is to wind it completely on the big spool and then put the free end on the small spool and wind it back on it until I had roughly 3.5 turns left on the big spool (I previously put a tape on the spring at that specific point), then carefully install (this is a critical moment, not an easy task with protective gloves) both spools back on their axles with the cord fully out.

I shortly realized that the spring wasn't tight enough, after a few trials and errors of oh-well-still-some-cord-left, I found that all I had to do was to wind up the slack on the cord completely on the spool, and it worked perfectly.

I put a section of a cork cap at the end of the cord to prevent it from going in the vac case. It also slows the cord a bit when it winds back in.

So I think I'm done with this one !



  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 390784 , Reply# 98   4/20/2018 at 15:33 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

I did monitor the current again and after about 10 to 15 minutes of use, the vac draws 7.5 amps without the PN, pretty close to the specs.

Post# 390803 , Reply# 99   4/20/2018 at 22:25 by MadMan (Chicago, IL, USA)        

madman's profile picture
Cool beans.

Post# 390826 , Reply# 100   4/21/2018 at 07:56 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

THanks to all for your advices, I don't think I'd achieve that without your help.

Post# 390835 , Reply# 101   4/21/2018 at 10:13 by Real1shep (Walla Walla, WA)        

Typically, Electrolux went on the thin side with cords for cord winders (gauge). So going with a heavier gauge is not going to work as well for the same length. Also you want a cord that is really supple. 3.5 wraps is great...never less than two wraps. What's important is that it works as it should without incident.

 

Kevin


Post# 390838 , Reply# 102   4/21/2018 at 10:34 by quebecois (Quebec, Canada)        

The cord I got from the vac store is of the same gauge as the old one.




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