Thread Number: 36087  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Bagless cleaners are better than Bagged cleaners.
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Post# 386994   3/2/2018 at 08:15 by vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Post# 386996 , Reply# 1   3/2/2018 at 08:22 by luxkid1980 (Richmond, Virginia)        

At least you have been cordial towards him Mark in your comments :) I think this guy is just looking for someone to disagree with him. He probably knows that most vacuum collectors will!

Post# 386998 , Reply# 2   3/2/2018 at 08:29 by vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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He is starting to annoy me now! He obviously has a scientific background I just wish he would actually try some of these cleaners for himself! Arrrrrrrrrgh!

Post# 387000 , Reply# 3   3/2/2018 at 08:42 by luxkid1980 (Richmond, Virginia)        

You know the old saying.....you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!

Post# 387001 , Reply# 4   3/2/2018 at 08:48 by vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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I'd like to lead him to water and throw him in! Haha

Post# 387007 , Reply# 5   3/2/2018 at 09:45 by dysonman1 (undisclosed)        

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You cannot make the assumption that vacuum collectors as a whole prefer bagged cleaners. Nor can you say that all or most vacuum collectors believe bags are best. That's simply not true. I have over 600 vacuums in my collection, mostly bagged, mostly vintage, but I don't believe bags are best.

I've spent the past two months preparing Stan Kann's vacuum collection for display at the Vacuum Cleaner Museum. Cleaning out those stinking cloth bags was a nightmare. So much easier to empty a Dyson.

I wound up using the world's first, and best bagless vacuum - the Rainbow - to clean the cloth vacuum bags. No dust, no smell, and emptying it got no dust on me. I put the Rainbow back as clean as I put away my dishes.

I so dislike vacuum bags (cloth or paper) that I have a Vacuflo central vac at home - no bags and no loss of suction. Since it's a commercial model, it holds 30 gallons of dirt - emptying it once a year is a simple and easy process.

Half the vacuums in my home vacuum collection (in rotation - a vacuum 'of the week') are bagless machines. One of my favorite is my Eureka Ultra Whirlwind from 2002. Of course, the Dyson DC17 Absolute, made only for the USA, is another outstanding performer.

Standing in corner is that stinking Kirby. Because I use it only once every six months or so, it ALWAYS stinks like dog hair. I throw away the Electrolux bag after each use - same thing - bags stink. I gave away my Miele Gemini because I couldn't stand to throw $5 in the trash (the Miele bag) after each use. The Miele always stunk worse than the Kirby.

For the entire history of vacuum cleaners, the filtration system has been the one thing (problem) that was never solved as a final design. Electric portable vacuums were only about 10 years old when Mr. Reploggle invented the HEPA filtration 14 layer cellulose bag for the wonderful Air-Way. 15 years later, Rexair did away with the bag entirely. Filter Queen even got on the bandwagon with two-ply cellulose filter cones. Single ply cellulose bags were invented in 40's for 'regular' vacuums. 4 ply Lux bags were invented in the 50's. That was about it until Dyson made cyclonic filtration popular.


Post# 387011 , Reply# 6   3/2/2018 at 09:59 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Interesting post Tom 😉

Post# 387012 , Reply# 7   3/2/2018 at 11:31 by kloveland (Tulsa, OK)        

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One thing is true though with bagless and bagged machines having animals sure stinks them up! When I clean for my grandparents who have two big labs I almost always prefer using a bagged vacuum. I own a Dyson DC 17 (I agree it’s a good cleaner, probably the best Dyson) with which I’ve thoroughly cleaned the cyclones after purchasing it used. Dust/dirt does stay inside the cyclones which causes odor. I usually blow the cyclones out with an air compressor after using it at my grandparents, which is time consuming because I don’t want my vacuum to smell like a dog. Personally, I’d rather put in a clean bag than have to worry about my bagless vacuums stinking later with the imbedded dirt that sticks to the cyclones or other separation device which will cause odor. Some of the cheaper bagless vacuums such as the Bissells are nice because all the parts can be washed and they are not that complicated to take apart and clean. Although, most Bissells products that I have used don’t filter that well.


Post# 387018 , Reply# 8   3/2/2018 at 13:45 by luxkid1980 (Richmond, Virginia)        
@dysonman1

Regarding vacuum cleaner bags stinking, i've never had that problem. Some people's dirt must be stinkier than others.... :)

Post# 387029 , Reply# 9   3/2/2018 at 16:15 by HonestJoe68 (Mansfield, Ohio)        

Iíve never seen more ANNOYING videos than JohnnyL8ís. Iím sure heís a nice person but OMG I cannot listen to him drone on and on giving only one side of the story as well as manipulating the ďfactsĒ to suit his needs.

Jason (Luxkid1980) is right.. (vacfan1982) Mark, you are TOO kind. I read all the comments and youíre such a nice, polite person! I wonít comment because I get too upset when someone like JohnnyL8 believes ONLY what he feels is substantiated proof is correct, but then totally ignores or rebuffs someone who shows written proof something he supports is flawed or incorrect!

Whether he works for Dyson or just likes to stir up controversy.. or he actually believes itís all 100% black and white as he thinks... I just donít have time for him. Lol

I really appreciate all of you guys here at vacuumland.org and I enjoy posting here because youíre all genuinely nice people who share a passion or hobby of vacuums. I enjoy reading all the posts as I have no 100% set in stone rules as far as vacuums go. Heck, Iím probably the least set in my ways now as my collection is full of a wide variety of vacuums.

I also appreciate and thank you all for NOT being like JohhnyL8 and telling me ďPatrick.. youíre wrong unless you like, buy and only use brand X vacuums!Ē Iíve had so much helpful information on here and learned a LOT from you guys.. itís been fun!

So thanks for sharing Mark, and you really are a super nice guy to put up with the sarcasm and rudeness of JohhnyL8.. you took the high road so in my book that means YOU won the argument. Lol I guess some people canít see the many shades of grey in this world.. theyíd rather cling desperately to their beliefs without admitting there are other valid points of view. Thanks!


Post# 387037 , Reply# 10   3/2/2018 at 17:50 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
JohnnyL8 is getting more and more aggressive trying to annoy people. It's very obvious because he sees peoples reactions to his videos.
What will eventually happen is that his own videos starts to turn against himself.
Many well known vacuum channels have already blocked him for a good reason.
So let's stay calm and let him make clown of himself.


Post# 387052 , Reply# 11   3/2/2018 at 21:07 by kirbynut (Alva OK)        

Ok I watched the video and now my brain hurts. Even on a reply that is a complement this guy is downright mean.

Post# 387062 , Reply# 12   3/3/2018 at 02:53 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Couldn't sit thru the 15 min video of all this BS dribble!15min of time lost I can't get back.So obvious he has NEVER worked on a vacuum-I have seen TOO MANY Dysons and other bagless machines whose cyclones and filters were hopelessly clogged with dog and long people hair-and STANK!!!!Dysons tiny air passages clog with just one wad of hair!or bobby pins,pens,and even full containers of nail polish.Dyson cyclone assemblies get so clogged with hair it isn't funny!A bagged vacuum would eat that stuff with no problem-bags clogging?I have STUFFED Kirby,Meile,'Lux,Sebo cloth bags so full they were like bricks!And no smell!As someone else says depends on what is picked up-pet hair is the most offender for odors.JohnnyL8 videos may generate as much contriversy as the Keeler thread!!!Remember that?

Post# 387189 , Reply# 13   3/4/2018 at 11:16 by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

The title of this thread made made me laugh as much as the one titled 'd*sons are the best on the planet'. I never wasted time looking at the videos and could guess immediately how the two threads are related. I already know what 'POS' stands for anyway...

Post# 387202 , Reply# 14   3/4/2018 at 14:24 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        

If you ignore him enough he will go away. Besides which anyone he can convince this is true. Will soon find that he his dead wrong.

We have all seen this before. Someone purchases "The Perfect vacuum" only to be back again howling that it is now broken 6 to 12 months later. Can't get the part(s) to fix it and worst of all it isn't living up to it's promise of excellence.

That leaves us with two things to remember

1. A fool and his money are soon parted.

2. If it sounds to good to be TRUE it usually isn't what it was advertised to be.


Post# 387235 , Reply# 15   3/4/2018 at 19:37 by rvarley (Oregon)        

I only watched it for a couple of minutes. He didn't annoy, but it didn't interest me.

Stinky vacuums are one of my pet peeves. And because I have dogs, my bagged vacuums often do smell as the bag gets full. Scented beads just cover up the smell. Charcoal sort of works, but bags always stink eventually and to some degree.

I have a Dyson V8 for the convenience and have only had to take it apart once in a couple of years to de-dog stench it. It's super convenient, despite its limitations. And I love seeing all that dirt dumped into the trash.

Have a Rainbow too, but I would not want to use it all the time. Never stinks. In fact, it smells wonderful. And it can do so many things. But it's too fiddly to use all the time


Post# 387239 , Reply# 16   3/4/2018 at 21:09 by vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Several months ago, I also blocked JohnnyL8

vaclab's profile picture
From my YouTube channel. Just so all of you know, he is very inaccurate and has unsubstantiated claims in many of his videos. Some of his charts and graphs are hilariously off. And the biggest clue that he doesn't really understand vacuums:

He has no appreciable understanding of suction versus airflow.

If you can't get the basics right, your opinions mean nothing.

Bill


Post# 387250 , Reply# 17   3/5/2018 at 05:57 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
Even ibaisaic (Roger) has blocked him.
What makes me upset is that he claims that airflow and suction is meaningless if vacuum cleaner has the right cleaning head design.
It's like claiming that the car doesn't need horsepower or torque to perform well. It's all about selecting the right tire type LOL.
I asked where he got the data and answer took time. He finally admitted that it's from the Dyson. In that point my last respect was gone.
I really don't like how he makes fun of other youtubers tests and all he has is those charts and pictures. They proof nothing.
Here is what he said to me: Your tests are not industry standard, rigorous, or at all convincing, unfortunately.
There is what is his most used slogans: "best holistic performance across all floor types is now achieved by the best bagless cleaners"
"The claim about holistic performance is evidenced by industry standard objective laboratory testing to IEC60312 standards"
No sense to comment to his videos. Answer is always the same: industry standard laboratory testing :D


Post# 387251 , Reply# 18   3/5/2018 at 06:10 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Your horsepower power and tyre analogy is a good one Mike. I agree with a lot that Johnny says. He is correct a floor nozzle needs to be correctly designed to make full use of the airflow but you need high airflow in the first place. This is why Dysons and all multi cyclonic vacuums will struggle to deep.clean carpets because the airflow is restricted by the complicated air path.

Post# 387252 , Reply# 19   3/5/2018 at 06:16 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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But what I will say is the latest Dysons are a lot better than most will give them credit for on here

I ordered a Light Ball today. The cleaner Johnny reviewed and I'm looking forward to trying it out 😁


Post# 387256 , Reply# 20   3/5/2018 at 08:43 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
i wouldn't mind owning the Light Ball. It seems to be quite impressive for the low pile carpets & hard floors. It's also very quiet for a Dyson.
Steve from the Madabouthoovers has done many very good videos about the Light Ball.
Let's see what you think about it when it arrives :)


Post# 387258 , Reply# 21   3/5/2018 at 09:01 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Dyson said if I don't like it I can return it within 35 days for a full refund and they will collect. That's customer service for you 😊

I've seen Steve's videos Mike he seems to be quite impressed with it and he loves his V8. Yes I only have low pile carpet and hardfloors so hopefully I will be happy with it. 😊


Post# 387259 , Reply# 22   3/5/2018 at 09:08 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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No not his V8 he prefers his V6.

Post# 387261 , Reply# 23   3/5/2018 at 10:00 by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
airflow is meaningless?

Anyone who says that obviously has no idea what they are talking about. I would challenge that person to plug in an electric power nozzle but don't attach it to a hose and try and clean the carpet. The nozzle will clog because the brush will remove the debris but there will be nothing to carry the dirt away.
Mike


Post# 387262 , Reply# 24   3/5/2018 at 10:07 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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I don't think he said airflow was meaningless I think he said it's the flux density that matters. How well the floorhead seals to the carpet to make the most of the airflow.Which is correct providing you have high airflow to start with

Post# 387264 , Reply# 25   3/5/2018 at 10:37 by Mike811 (Finland)        
Something more

mike811's profile picture
Me:
Some facts about the airflow:
Dyson DC40 1100 watts motor, airflow 55 cfm.
Miele C3 1200 watts airflow empty bag 108 cfm, full bag 97 cfm.
So Dyson is still very weak compared to the best bagged vacuums in the market. And yes this translate to the cleaning performance.
He:
Really don't know why you continue to fixate on airflow as though it's some valuable metric in and of itself, literally ignoring industry standard test data of actual measured cleaning performanceóthe only thing that counts and that all metrics lead to. This myth I've covered several times now in videosóeven explicitly in this one; it's hard to tell if you've even watched/understood it. Please send formal industry standard test data and a detailed formalised evidence-supported explanation if you still feel the contrary because just repeating yourself is completely unconvincing and falling flat. And despite all this, there was plenty else raised in this video.

Me:
The Carpet and Rug Institute does not recommend a Dyson.
To earn the CRI Seal of Approval certification, vacuums must pass the following independent laboratory tests:
Soil removal ó CRI uses NASA-enhanced x-ray fluorescence technology instead of traditional gravimetrix testing to measure the precise amount of soil removed from carpet ó either 30 oz/sy commercial cut pile carpet or 30 oz/sy loop pile carpet.
Dust containment ó The vacuum must not release more than 100 micrograms of dust particles per cubic meter of air, keeping dirt and dust locked tight in the vacuum ó not escaping back into the air where it can be breathed.
Surface Appearance Change ó The vacuum must not affect the texture of the commercial cut pile carpet (900 passes with sample rotated every 50 passes) more than a one-step change based on one year of normal vacuum use.
He:
Are you trying to make a point? No idea who the hell they are anyway.


Post# 387266 , Reply# 26   3/5/2018 at 10:50 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
I know he won't except any info that goes against his views but I'm sure he knows that airflow is what carries the dirt into the cleaner. 😁

Post# 387267 , Reply# 27   3/5/2018 at 10:53 by HonestJoe68 (Mansfield, Ohio)        
@vacfan1982

Mark,

Iím very excited for you to receive your new Dyson Light Ball. Being in the USA and Dyson changes them slightly and gives them different names, and the EU regulations differ.. I was trying to figure out if this is Similar to my DC41, DC65 or my Newest Ball Animal 2 or a totally different machine? Then I noticed itís like a hybrid of the full sized upright with the power brushroll style on the Small Ball. Very interesting so Iím guessing us USA consumers donít have an equivalent to yours.

I found while watching Rogers (ibaisaic) Video on his Small Ball Multi Floor that the USA model I bought, direct from Dyson at approximately the same time he got his, differed in the brushroll head design. Iím sure youíve probably already seen it too, but I included the link to Rogers video on the same vacuum you just bought. (Unless you bought the purple animal design)

Regardless this thread got my Dyson excitement reactivated and I got both my Dyson Animal 2 and Small Ball out to clean house with today! Iíd forgotten just how MANY attachment tools I have now.. I Love the Reach Under Tool.

The main reason I stopped buying Dyson vacuums for a while, then started again with the two latest uprights, is Dyson USA frustrated me as I wanted to own the Latest and Greatest for my collection, so it started when I got my DC40, then right away Dyson released the DC41, then something else, then I bought the DC65 and Loved it and then they came out with the Ball Animal then right away the Ball Animal 2. The USA has had Big Balls, Small Balls and everything in between (Pun) they must be trying to sell more to gay men! Lol After Iíd bought them, including the Cinetic Big Ball.. Dyson USA felt almost like they kept giving me the finger.. saying hereís a newer, better, more advanced upright. Lol. Iím not mad, just puzzled why they had so many designs come out instead of prototypes figured out in house before release. Then another question I have is when I bought my Cinetic, as soon as it was released, we were bombarded on our TVís with Ads for the Cinetic.. it was on QVC and HSN often and praised as the be all and end all of vacuums... then it all stopped and for a short time the Cinetic were not even on the Dyson USA website. They are back of course but not front and center as before? Curious to me as to why this sudden lack of enthusiasm by Dyson for what the originally touted as the biggest breakthrough of all!

I must admit Dyson employees are super friendly and VERY generous to me, having 20 items registered including most of the Uprights (all currently available now) many of the Cordless including my Favorite Dyson V8.. Fans, Heaters etc. Iíve been given several vacuums free from Dyson, free tools and I always am given priority expedited shipping free of charge. So Dyson is a wonderful company who rewards loyalty. Even in a local store, the Dyson sales rep jokingly said I should work for them with how much I know about the products and he even gave me the hanging tool storage caddy and three tools free of charge. Great company, I just wish they would maybe think a little more about function than design aesthetics sometimes. But boy are they beautiful vacuums! I also wish they would offer the UK the same promotions as the USA.. both my newest Uprights came with the deal where I got to choose Three Free Tools with Registration... that was a huge savings as I got the more expensive tools for free.

Oh the V6 is awesome too, but I moved it down to the basement laundry area when I got my V8. Such drastic improvements I donít care to use the V6 as much now. Emptying is easier and itís much quieter too.. the V8 in my opinion is their best yet for cordless. Iíve owned the last five cordless, including the cute White and Teal Dyson V6 Mattress which I kept.

Sorry to ramble on and on but after getting my newest two out of my collection room.. Iím excited about my Dyson again. Best of luck with your new Dyson.. chances are you wonít need the return window, especially with the flooring you described. Iím guessing it will be very nice for your needs.


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This post was last edited 03/05/2018 at 12:19
Post# 387269 , Reply# 28   3/5/2018 at 11:02 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
Thank you Patrick yes they are certainly masters at marketing haha.

If you want an upright here there's not much choice in bagged cleaners. Just Sebo now really so I thought I'd give another Dyson a go. Sacrilege on here I know 😁


Post# 387273 , Reply# 29   3/5/2018 at 11:20 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

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Dyson have a lot of balls 😁

Post# 387276 , Reply# 30   3/5/2018 at 11:45 by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)        

panasonicvac's profile picture
This is one of the reasons why I like central vacuums the best. All of the dirt would be taken OUT of your house and into the unit of either the garage or the basement without smelling the dirt when you vacuum. What's even better is adding exhaust pipes so all of the dust that would eventually make it past through the motor would be taken OUT of your house and the rain would later filter the air of all you have vacuumed up. Of course you would then eventually need to empty or change the bag once or twice a year, and of course you would also smell the dirt when you do maintenance but I find it much more sanitary than all of the other types of vacuums that I've used.

Post# 387277 , Reply# 31   3/5/2018 at 11:49 by Vacfan1982 (Cardiff)        

vacfan1982's profile picture
I agree with you. I love my central vac. 😊

Post# 387297 , Reply# 32   3/5/2018 at 20:52 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        

A good central vacuum is a great option on many levels.

Unfortunately many perspective customers don't or cant go that route. Due to over all cost. And yes many will opt to over pay for a machine that isn't effective in hopes of finding a portable vacuum that works. Others are in a property that they don't own and there for are unable to install a built in system.

So there is always going to be a market for a portable unit.

A lot of new homes being built have central vacuums as the plumbing for it can be installed before the walls go up and the over all costs are included in the mortgage.


Post# 387311 , Reply# 33   3/6/2018 at 00:32 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

If you don't own the home-you can still use a central vac if you want to.Just purchase the unit and use it with the long hose.You can use the machi ne "Freestanding" I and other collectors here do this.Of course if you move you can take the vacuum with you.

Post# 387314 , Reply# 34   3/6/2018 at 01:48 by S2_82 (Columbus, Ohio)        

Would like to see how one would use a central vac "freestanding".
Don't they need to be properly vented? .. Would it even be possible to use an electric hose to use a powerhead since you dont have the actual inlet (in the wall) plug installation?


Post# 387319 , Reply# 35   3/6/2018 at 06:39 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

EASY-just that use the 35ft hose in the utility inlet on the machine.I have two hoses that can use 120V powernozzles.You plug the pigtail cord on the hose into an outlet-then the central unit into another outlet on a separate circuit.I use the Volt powernozzle for the most part so another outlet isn't needed and you can use a non powered hose for the Volt PN.don't need to vent my unit since I use The Tru-Fit Filtrete bags in the machine along with the cloth bag.According to MD if you use either the Tru-fit or HyperFlow Filtrte style bags venting is not required.And particle count meter readings VERY low-less than ambient air-not 0 but close.the reading I get must be from carbon motor brush dust.

Post# 387374 , Reply# 36   3/6/2018 at 19:49 by Jonthevacguy (Capitola, California)        
Bagged versus Bagless

jonthevacguy's profile picture
Hi All, I'm new here : ). I'm not a fan of bagless vacs...I do refurbs and bagless vacs (dysons) are just
filthy inside. I just did a riccar n2000 with a nice hepa bag in it...it will stay very clean overall. The cyclone in a Dyson becomes so dirty...it's also difficult to clean versus putting in a new hepa bag.


Post# 387557 , Reply# 37   3/9/2018 at 09:03 by mariotron (Texas )        
I saw him saying air flow didn't matter too.

mariotron's profile picture
I mean sure it isn't every thing but I'm 100% positive it's important. You don't just want suction on one part of the foot (that's what I call the floor nozzle).

I


Post# 387569 , Reply# 38   3/9/2018 at 10:39 by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Good Airflow and Agitation are the two most important things that make a vacuum cleaner an excellent cleaning machine.

 

 

 

 


Post# 387573 , Reply# 39   3/9/2018 at 11:03 by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
free standing central vacs

Like Tolivac, I use my central vacuum units free standing, I have 8 of them, it's awesome. Some machines have a utility valve built in and for those that don't, just attach a utility valve to the in-take, works great and you don't have to deal with pipes. Granted, you lose the benefit of the unit being in a different place but I have not found this to be a problem. All of my units use bags so no need to vent them outside. I have some laundry crystals in each bag so it actually smells pretty good. For electric nozzles, connect the hose to the machine and plug it in to a nearby outlet, I have two electric hoses, one is 35 feet and the other is 50 feet. There are even some central vac units that are designed to be used free standing without pipes.
Mike


Post# 387656 , Reply# 40   3/10/2018 at 04:23 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I bought some Sebo Deodorizer capsules that you can suck into or put into the bag as you install it into the vacuum.They work pretty well and give a very slight,pleasant lime odor.You can also use Featherlyte deodorizer in any machine-just pick it up.And they come in many different "smells"-vac shops have them.Sadly this company might go out of business.Sad-they make a fine product.If anyone on here knows about the details-please let us know.

Post# 387666 , Reply# 41   3/10/2018 at 05:36 by pr-21 (Middletown, OH)        

pr-21's profile picture

Vac Yum are granuals you can vacuum up and they work well. Lots of fragrances.  They will not clog bags. Goodvac.com sells them. These are not for Water Filtration vacuums.

 

PR-21

Bud

 


Post# 387667 , Reply# 42   3/10/2018 at 06:34 by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

I have some Vac-yum deodorizers-they also work well and won't damage vacuums.

Post# 387735 , Reply# 43   3/10/2018 at 20:56 by compactc9guy (Bathurst New Brunswick Canada )        
Baggggs only please

compactc9guy's profile picture
Thats why i love my Compact C9 vacuum open bag design when full trow away put a fresh paper bag and no smell. at all. and i have a cat . My vacuum are all bag .Electrolux and Compact and 1 ShopVac , i had 2 bagless what a pain in the rear bumper to empty and clog filters a, Bissels clean view II and a Kenmore EVO Bagless that every thing broke on it. No thank you i l stick to a bagged machine empty is easy put a fresh bag and voila no smell no dirt no mess no fuss .I had a bad experience whit my bag less so i prefer bag.My opinion

Post# 387748 , Reply# 44   3/10/2018 at 23:43 by Mike811 (Finland)        

mike811's profile picture
This is enough for me to convince how much better the bagged vacuums are.
Much more airflow.


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