Thread Number: 35763  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Kirby/Rainbow
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Post# 383889   1/8/2018 at 19:54 by markhenry (USA)        

Hello,

I know I asked most of what I wanted to ask in a previous thread, but I didn't know how to edit the actual heading. Since it all went in Kirby/Rainbow direction, I felt it would of been better had I titled it that way so that people that actually use/own one or the other would be able to chime in.

I have pretty much decided money wise to get a Miele C3. Seems to do a good job for $950 with HEPA filtration. Only thing is, every year a $54 HEPA filter must be replaced and a box of bags (4 bags) for $39. So essentially $100 a year running cost.

Given that... (which still works out cheaper as a rainbow/kirby here cost $4000 anyway - so there is no savings)

I'm really trying to work out down here... why would I go with a Kirby or a Rainbow instead of the Miele... as in what would I be trying to achieve by getting either the Kirby or the Rainbow instead of the Miele?

Terms of Cleanliness (cleaning the carpet from all dust/sand/cat hair etc), and terms of dust retention (which one keeps the dust to a minimum... no point sucking 100% up if 20% of it gets put back out into the air, then the vacuum only did an 80% job).

Thanks!





Post# 383898 , Reply# 1   1/8/2018 at 20:39 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        

I have never had any issues with dust retention with my Kirby. (Heritage II) I have used it to vacuum up plaster dust with no obvious dust escaping the micron magic bags. And I do mean plenty of dry wall dust from sanding the walls in the kitchen I skim coated with dry wall mud.

I used the paper bag assembly on a 1CR model years ago before micron magic bags. To vacuum up the dry chemical from a fire extinguisher at one of our job sites. Again no obvious dust escaping that time either. I sucked up 80% powder on the first go round to the point the vacuum tipped over towards the bag side of the machine. Then changed the bag and went over all the carpet and vinyl tile again and filled the bag about 1/3 the second time around.

You couldn't do that with a Rainbow. My mom has the E 2 Rainbow. I used it one weekend to do a monthly deep clean. The water was just barely cloudy after vacuuming wall to wall and all the furniture. And yet the Kirby bag had plenty of dust in it from cleaning the prior weeks. The Rainbow had been in service for about 9 months and hadn't been used for any cleaning tasks that I put the Kirby's thru. There for the hepa filter and brushes on the power nozzle were still like new. My mom still uses her Kirby Omega (2CB) from 1974 on a regular basis. Even more than the Rainbow I do believe.

I prefer an upright. I grew up with Kirby's and like the plug and play aspect of it. No set up or clean up to use it to clean anything. I'm not impressed with the air flow on the Rainbow. I have used other bagged domestic canisters with far better air flow and suction.


Post# 383907 , Reply# 2   1/8/2018 at 21:46 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
My advice

Never pay retail. Everything on a door to door machine is negotiable. You can easily have a new Kirby for around $1k. Rainbow is harder to deals with due to their sales structure.

Don't forget you can get great deals on eBay. Just remember the warranty may not be honored if you didn't purchase from a dealer. You would have to weigh out if your saving could justify a self paid repair if a breakdown occurs. In most cases it would.

Best time to buy is the last week, or even last few days of the month, when dealers are trying to meet quota. Many times they will forgo commission to move a machine as that machine may make them a bonus.


Post# 383927 , Reply# 3   1/9/2018 at 10:03 by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Markhenry:

 

I am repeating here what I wrote in your earlier thread: 

 

FYI - All of the Kirby G series machines, including Avalir, are capable of using the newer Kirby HEPA bags. When using a HEPA bag in your Kirby, you will actually be cleaning the air in the room as you vacuum. 

 

Also, because of their massive airflow, Kirby and the newer Royal metal upright vacuums will deep clean your carpets better than any other vacuum, Upright or Canister. Kirby Avalir has won CRI's GOLD seal of approval (Royal won Silver) for cleaning ability and Air Filtration. The Miele C3 will not deep clean or filter the air as well as a Kirby can.

 

Harley is correct, There is no need to pay full retail price for a Sentria II or Avalir. You can find a "Like new" Kirby for only a few hundred dollars on ebay.

 

 

 


Post# 383938 , Reply# 4   1/9/2018 at 12:27 by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
think about a Sirena

the Miele you have chosen would work well. If you want a water filtration machine, check out the Sirena. It will work as good as the Rainbow and can be gotten new for around $895. I much prefer canisters over uprights, much easier to get under things and much easier to use with attachments.
Mike


Post# 383940 , Reply# 5   1/9/2018 at 12:52 by Sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Stan a Miele C3 with the best bags in the industry and a high quality HEPA filter will not filter as well as a Kirby?
Haha I know you have a deep love of Kirbys I think you probably sleep with one but where do you get this nonsense from? :)


Post# 383946 , Reply# 6   1/9/2018 at 14:22 by markhenry (USA)        

Kirby have Gold CRI approval...

Rainbow have the AAFA (asthma allergy thing) approval... doesn't that filter even better because of it? To get that means no dust comes out of the machine, and all youtube videos I seen of Kirby people say the room smells like dust when you turn a Kirby on... not out of the bag but the air vents down the bottom read over 100,000+ on particle tester while rainbow show 0 in comparison??

I know I don't want that dust smell in the house because that just gets all in my nose and reality is, I haven't really cleaned anything if all I did was take it out of the carpet to put it in the air... in fact its safer staying in the carpet than being in the air to breath... ?

Does Kirby have attachments/hoses so that a power nozzle etc can be used to go under the bed/on the bed, curtains, furniture and so forth like a canister vacuum?





Post# 383950 , Reply# 7   1/9/2018 at 14:42 by Sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
I would take the CRI awards with a pinch of salt. I think a few brown envelopes have passed hands there :)

Post# 383953 , Reply# 8   1/9/2018 at 14:48 by Ultralux88 (Denver, Colorado)        

ultralux88's profile picture
Honestly, I feel both the Rainbow and the Miele are more user friendly, especially when it comes to attachment usage. I rarely if ever use the tools on a Kirby, I'll often use a suction only canister instead. The Miele and Rainbow have permanent belts and the P/Ns swivel for easier steering, and they also reach under low furniture better than the Kirby. Some find the water annoying and difficult to deal with, but I don't. I tend to prefer the Rainbow just because I like the round canister with 4 casters instead of the more typical canister design like the Miele, but they're both very good vacuum cleaners, among the best you can get.

Post# 383956 , Reply# 9   1/9/2018 at 15:26 by markhenry (USA)        

Here is one of the videos I was referring too...





Over 6 digits on particle test while Rainbow shows 0.

To me it is more looking like this...

The Kirby - Lasts 30+ Years.... All the Rainbow people have rainbows that are over 30 years old and still working like new as well.

So Long Lasting - Same (give or take per individual experience)

Deep Cleaning ability - Perhaps the Kirby wins here due to its enormous air flow. Haven't seen other vacuums that provide that kind of agitation/air flow as does the Kirby...

So if I put it on a numbering system... lets say the Kirby Cleans 100% (Meaning absolutely nothing left in the carpet, not a grain of dust or sand or hair or anything) - 100% clean (Real world this is not possible, but follow the example anyway)...

Rainbow on other hand due to inferior airflow compare to the Kirby and whatever else... only cleans 80% of the carpet.

However...

Because over 6 digits on the particle test come out of the Kirby... penalty 20%... then both the Rainbow and the Kirby have 'actually' cleaned 80% of the floor, the difference being, with the Rainbow 20% of it is in the carpet while the Kirby stuck 20% of it in the air for you to breath in and get your nose blocked up with.

If this example is at all remotely accurate, it would make more sense to get the Rainbow as the Kirby isn't actually cleaning better, it picks everything up and then throws 20% of it back in the air, wouldn't it better had it stayed in the floor instead then?

Once that stuff settles, its back in the floor, where the rainbow would have left it.

This is what I am trying to work out...

As said, I would have to go on a payment plan, there is no Used options down here, I have looked the entire web for it, I'm not buying on ebay... Both are going to cost $4000 or $33 a week over 3 years on a payment plan.

I don't want to end up with a vacuum that isn't what I expected and that is why I am trying to figure this out in reality...

Rainbow Dealers tell me they worked for Kirby for 25 years and those vacuum cleaners are not what they are made out to be by the sales people, there are tricks etc used to sell the vacuum and make it 'appear' better than others... and then lean heavily on the fact that Rainbow is practically the only vacuum cleaner in the world that is AAFA approved, showing, if you want the 'cleanest' air to breath (which to me is the point of vacuuming, to keep the place clean) the Rainbow is the best vacuum cleaner. Also the Rainbow does not lose suction like the Kirby will due to the fact it hasn't got a bag.

The Kirby May clean better to start with an empty bag that isn't clogged... but a lot of that stuff is put back in the air, which again means it is not cleaning better than the rainbow and once the bag starts filling up, it will actually clean less so than the rainbow "and still put stuff in the air" which means now it is actually cleaning worse.

On the other hand, Kirby people say that is all a load of rubbish and was only the case with older designs, now with HEPA etc... it isn't the case (However that video says otherwise?)...

So as you can see... with the price tag etc... I don't wanna get one... and then regret the fact I'm gonna be stuck paying it off for 3 years because "I should have gotten the other one - it actually worked better"


Post# 383963 , Reply# 10   1/9/2018 at 16:45 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Remembering that the producer of this video

Is a dealer for Miele, you need to put his credibility into question.

In his testing he had a zero with the Kirby at the bag, this is when he decided to go to the cooling ports to make his point.

At the cooling port you are seeing maybe carbon dust from the motor, but also dust from the ambient air. I find this rather prejudice on the presenter's part, and did call him out for such on youtube. These particles are not a result of poor filteration by the Kirby bag system, and as other post have also pointed out. This particle counter is for air cleaners not vacuums.


It Think Mike/nOoxy gave you good advice about looking at a Sirena if you are interested in a water filter machine. Sirena, and Rainbow are not perfect in the water filter department; both have to employ a HEPA after filter to show you clean air, and after it has been used for awhile you will see emissions, as well as performance drops.



Post# 383978 , Reply# 11   1/9/2018 at 21:50 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        

Do you have any family or friends that own one of the newer Kirby's? If so borrow the vacuum and try it out. The only way you will ever be able to make any kind of decision is with first had experience.

I find the test mentioned above to be skewed in my opinion. The side vent is the air coming from the motor cooling fan. There for there is more air being introduced into the particle counter. Unlike around the bag the counter is drawing in the sample air rather than having the air forced into the counter like at the motor cooling vent.

We have all seen the Infomercials that demonstrate that the vacuum they are selling is far superior to a Kirby for example. We have all called it out that the competing vacuum wasn't set up properly and there for failed. One of the collectors here called out QVC on one of their sales pitches. They put a Shop vac up against a shark upright. Two totally different machines. He managed to get on air and told them and the public watching that the shop vac was obviously clogged up. Needless to say he got cut off. And the QVC people apologized for his comments that they had no control over.

Bottom line: Try out the machines you are interested in first. There is some one out there with that machine available at a price you are willing to pay. The local vacuum shops take trade ins of all makes and will resell at a good price.


Post# 383979 , Reply# 12   1/9/2018 at 21:53 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        

Do you have any family or friends that own one of the newer Kirby's? If so borrow the vacuum and try it out. The only way you will ever be able to make any kind of decision is with first had experience.

I find the test mentioned above to be skewed in my opinion. The side vent is the air coming from the motor cooling fan. There for there is more air being introduced into the particle counter. Unlike around the bag the counter is drawing in the sample air rather than having the air forced into the counter like at the motor cooling vent.

We have all seen the Infomercials that demonstrate that the vacuum they are selling is far superior to a Kirby for example. We have all called it out that the competing vacuum wasn't set up properly and there for failed. One of the collectors here called out QVC on one of their sales pitches. They put a Shop vac up against a shark upright. Two totally different machines. He managed to get on air and told them and the public watching that the shop vac was obviously clogged up. Needless to say he got cut off. And the QVC people apologized for his comments that they had no control over.

Bottom line: Try out the machines you are interested in first. There is some one out there with that machine available at a price you are willing to pay. The local vacuum shops take trade ins of all makes and will resell at a good price.


Post# 384018 , Reply# 13   1/10/2018 at 15:22 by electroluxxxx (cortland, NY)        
@markHenry

electroluxxxx's profile picture
I sent you an email.

Mike


Post# 384019 , Reply# 14   1/10/2018 at 15:40 by markhenry (USA)        

Thanks for feedback.

Unfortunatelly being international, there are hardly any distributors around. Only 1 in my town, next one 500miles away.

No shops down here will have any of them. Best I can do is schedule an in home demo with either. But doing that, both will clean exceptional compare to the junk we are using from Amway, S2000 upright. As soon as that vacuum is turned on my nose gets tingly from the dust that goes straight in it. That is what I wanted to avoid.

Does the rainbow do a poor cleaning job? I looked up some threads on here and I havent found anyone to complain as to the performance, clean fresh smell left behind etc from anyone.

Is this a case of Mercedes vs BMW where people in both camps will say the other one 'isnt as good' but in reality both work as good as eachother and last as long, or is there a real performance difference between the two vacuums where you would feel ripped off getting one over the other?

As I said before... both kirby and rainbow will cost me the same price (whatever price that ends up being)... if the kirby cleans better, filters the air while vacuuming so that it doesnt smell like dust etc... then a rainbow is not worth buying. Why spend the same exact coin on a vacuum that does less with no benefit? Same as in vice versa situation.

If the Kirby was like $5000 and the rainbow was $2000, then I would think the Kirby is clearly better but hey for the price difference... the rainbow is good enough.

Both of them cost identical though, not different, so there is no price advantage to get one that is good enough compare to th better one thats more expensive. So in this case Why should I buy one over the other since they do cost the exact same amount? Is there a clear performance advantage of one over the other, or is this splitting hairs and using either vacuum will clean up everything in the house properly, they are just different to use/maintain?



Post# 384020 , Reply# 15   1/10/2018 at 15:49 by electroluxxxx (cortland, NY)        

electroluxxxx's profile picture
the email I sent to you came back as a failed email address, what is your email address MarkHenry?

Mike


Post# 384028 , Reply# 16   1/10/2018 at 18:59 by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
I have to weigh in on this

A Kirby is heavy, awkward and clumsy...BUT they will out clean any clean air machine made, a open face fan moves volumes more air than the best clean air system, this is why Hoover Convertibles, old Kirbys and Royals and Eureka uprights out clean Dial A Matics etc

Post# 384029 , Reply# 17   1/10/2018 at 19:01 by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
A Rainbow

Will not move the amount of air a Kirby will even if the Kirby is half full of dirt.Try a Baird Airflo Meter and see!

Post# 384031 , Reply# 18   1/10/2018 at 19:32 by rvarley (Oregon)        

With regard to the video clip of the Kirby test, I think the guy works for a dealer that sells Miele. I have seen him do a Sebo vs. Miele canister review and he gave the thumbs up, by a hair, to the Sebo. So although he likes Miele, I think he is capable of liking other products as well.

Surely there are other members who are affiliated with manufacturers that have a bias towards said manufacturer.


Post# 384036 , Reply# 19   1/10/2018 at 21:24 by markhenry (USA)        

And I am not after bias or anything... i just want the truth...

I feel as though, however...

I mean look...

If I vacuum 2-3 times per week...

Will it even matter which machine is used then? Reason being... nothing has a chance to settle/go deep into the carpet if you vacuum frequently... in which case, rainbow, miele, sebo, kirby, electrolux or whatever will clean the house just as good because you don't allow the house to get filthy before you take the cleaner out...

Would there be any merit in this?


Post# 384046 , Reply# 20   1/11/2018 at 05:43 by rvarley (Oregon)        

@markhenry - Yes, much merrit. The best vacuum is the one that gets used, and if the vacuum is difficult to use, it may not get used as frequently. Personally, while I like my Rainbow, I sure would not have to take it out, set it up, take it apart and clean it every time I wanted to vacuum. Nor would I want to futz with a Kirby's attachments. I see those photos of used Kirbys on craigslist sitting next to a pile of attachments that would fill an entire closet and think 'noooooo!' I also have a Kirby and speak from experience. It's great for deep cleaning wide open spaces, but it would not be my one and only upright.

One more thing to consider - do you want one machine that does most everything OK or an upright for ease of use and powerful cleaning plus a canister for details / above floor cleaning? Tacony makes a very nice light weight upright without any attachments. It does one thing and does it very well. That or similar, plus a canister is worth consideration. The model is Supralight (Riccar).


Post# 384069 , Reply# 21   1/11/2018 at 13:41 by Vaclab (Pickerington, Ohio)        
Kirby Vacuums Definitely Clean The Air

vaclab's profile picture
See what a Sentria II does in a closed room in 10 minutes. A whopping 68% 0.3 um particle reduction.






Bill (VacLab)


Post# 384189 , Reply# 22   1/13/2018 at 14:18 by Ultralux88 (Denver, Colorado)        

ultralux88's profile picture
Any machine with a HEPA bag should be able to do the same, those bags are what in my eyes saved direct air machines from being dust belchers, its just not easy to contain all the exhaust from the bag into a HEPA filter the way it is on a clean air machine, so making the bag the HEPA filter was the obvious easy way to do it.

Post# 384215 , Reply# 23   1/14/2018 at 03:07 by vacuumdevil (Denver)        

vacuumdevil's profile picture
@Vaclab 68% sounds like its blowing dust .

Can you test something we know filters 99.97% like a Miele,Nilfisk,e2 rainbow.
I would like to see what that Chinese thing reads at ?

You need to have a control for your "test "




Post# 384216 , Reply# 24   1/14/2018 at 03:21 by vacuumdevil (Denver)        

vacuumdevil's profile picture
@Kirbysthebest
I think the only credibility Question has been you.
Fact checking time

1#The producer of That video Dose not make a dime if you buy vacuum brand A over Vacuum brand B .

2#I prefer many brands over Miele. Such as NSS,lindsay manufacturing,SEBO,MD,lindhaus,Nilfisk I know you will have to google some of those.

#3 You are only a small time Collector who has yet to get more experience with other brands . you view will change over time .

#4 I have been in Vacuum repair Since 2005





Post# 384247 , Reply# 25   1/14/2018 at 18:03 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Mr. Devil

Small time?
Without having to post a Resume, we will just say I was around vacuums about 35 years before your 2005 appearance in the vac shop.

Your biases have been pointed out many times by individuals, and a major manufacturer.

I change my own oil in my car, by your standards that must make me an automotive expert.


Post# 384249 , Reply# 26   1/14/2018 at 20:12 by markhenry (USA)        

I could do with an auto expert... aha

Anyway... sorry I got a bit confused between Kirby and vacuumdevil... Vacuum were you saying the Mieles are not good or was it the other way around?

Sorry, I just got lost a bit with the last posts...


Post# 384251 , Reply# 27   1/14/2018 at 20:26 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        
@kirbysthebest

HURRAY!!!! Nice comeback.

I see from your profile that you have experience with many brands. Mr Devil has only walked the earth since 1987 according to his profile. From previous posts I know you were selling and repairing vacuums long before he was even born. By the time he was born I already had 8 years of experience with vacuums.

Another wet behind the ears youngster spoke out of turn.



Post# 384260 , Reply# 28   1/14/2018 at 21:21 by royalfan (Chicago)        

royalfan's profile picture
@markhenry it appears there's too much drama going around. It looks like we can all agree that we like vacuums.

Post# 384265 , Reply# 29   1/14/2018 at 21:55 by markhenry (USA)        

I'm more confused now than before.

Post# 384276 , Reply# 30   1/14/2018 at 23:39 by kirby519 (Wisconsin)        
@markhenry

What are you even more confused about?

In another post it sounds like you chose a vacuum that will do all the things you want a vacuum to do and at what you feel is cost efficient in your situation. I think you made the right choice for you. I sincerely hope you don't have buyers remorse.

Like I have said many times before. I purchased a new Kirby 30 years ago and paid what I felt was a fair price. I have told stories about things I have used a Kirby for that I doubt anyone else here would even consider doing with any vacuum. I personally feel no need to consider any other machine or give it a complete redesign. I like the way it's set up, build quality and performance just the way it is.

I have been a satisfied Kirby customer long before I bought one for myself. At the age of 51 I have been vacuuming and/or repairing vacuums for the last 48 years.





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