Thread Number: 34240  /  Tag: 50s/60s/70s Vacuum Cleaners
GE motors in Kirby D50?
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Post# 370990   4/18/2017 at 20:49 by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        

Received my second D50 parts unit from ebay, another total junker that was improperly packed.
During testing, I got the following with no bag or intake attachment, which were reasonable compared to another D50 I tested...
No fan-
Low speed: 2.05A, 19200 RPM
High speed: 3.24A, 20106 RPM

Now with fan, this thing just about blew itself right of the workbench.
Low speed: 4.7A, 10800 RPM
High speed: 7.6A, 13500 RPM

Rated current is 5A, so with fan it is drawing too much on high, and probably on low as well. Very minimal normal sparking at commutator at all times but some dark streaks on the comm. I cleaned it up a bit since.

One oddity is that I see the GE logo and 'HAB' (or 'HAR') on the armature with part number 56A45FN27 (at least that is how it looks; I did not want to force the wires to move).
So far I have not seen a GE motor in a Kirby. Any thoughts on this? Is this a replacement, perhaps?



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Post# 370993 , Reply# 1   4/18/2017 at 21:52 by vacuumlad1650 (North-East Illinois)        

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I might be wrong, but the Armature may have been re-wound using GE parts? Just a guess.
A


Post# 370996 , Reply# 2   4/18/2017 at 22:22 by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
texaskirbyguy

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Rob,

If you ever need a new armature and/or field, order part numbers 114967 and/or 103967 respectively, but supplies are limited!

~Ben


Post# 371000 , Reply# 3   4/18/2017 at 22:41 by Oreck_XL (Brooklyn, New York 11211)        

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I read on VacuumLand that Black & Decker motors were used in older Kirbys. Does anyone know when they stopped?

Post# 371006 , Reply# 4   4/18/2017 at 23:32 by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
Oreck_XL

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Hershel,

That was after Black & Decker sold its household motor business to Lamb Motors... which reminds me, did Kirby ever use any Lamb fields and armatures in the early '60s?

~Ben


Post# 371025 , Reply# 5   4/19/2017 at 08:18 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Black & Decker

If I am not mistaking, wasn't there a relationship between Black and Decker and GE? Edited: Actually B&D bought GE small appliance division. This may be the link to GE the OP posted.



This post was last edited 04/19/2017 at 11:29
Post# 371032 , Reply# 6   4/19/2017 at 09:32 by dysonman1 (Rolla, Missouri)        

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When the Old VCCC went to the Kirby factory, back then the G5 was the new model, I specifically asked about the armatures and field coils, since the assembly line was taking them out of cardboard boxes and installing them. The Kirby Company at that time did NOT wind their own armatures and coils, but purchased them from a manufacturer (they did not share who that manufacturer was). It's possible that GE was the manufacturer during the Dual 50's run, as GE would make the armatures and coils for Bison just a couple of years later. GE and Black & Decker had no relationship. Black & Decker bought Air-Way's motor manufacturing plant back when Hoover sued Air-Way over the beater bars patent infringement (in retaliation for Air-Way suing Hoover for using their patented disposable bag). Black and Decker made coils and armatures for other manufacturers, like Rexair, before designing a 'drop in' motor (as used by Filtex and Modern Hygiene (Royal). Black & Decker sold out to Lamb (Ametek) in the late 1940's.

Post# 371043 , Reply# 7   4/19/2017 at 11:25 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
No relationship

G.E. To Sell Unit To Black & Decker

Published: December 17, 1983



The General Electric Company said yesterday that it had signed an agreement in principle to sell its small-appliance business to the Black & Decker Manufacturing Company for about $300 million in cash and notes.

G.E. said that segment of its business should have sales of more than $470 million this year, about 2 percent of G.E.'s overall sales.

It includes such products as toasters, toaster ovens, coffee makers, food processors, juicers, electric can openers, irons and hair dryers.

The transaction, which does not include G.E.'s audio electronics, video, lighting or large appliance products, did not come as a surprise, since G.E. has decided to focus its resources on its large-scale consumer businesses.

Paul W. Van Orden, a G.E. executive vice president and sector executive in charge of consumer products, said G.E. believes it can better apply its technological and financial muscle in the large-scale consumer businesses.

Black & Decker, a major maker of home power tools and equipment that is based in Towson, Md., recently underwent a corporate restructuring that has led to a greater emphasis on household items. Laurence J. Farley, the company's president and chief executive, said the acquisition should help in the company's effort to diversify its home products. The sale includes G.E. plants in Brockport, N.Y.; Allentown, Pa., and Asheboro, N.C., as well as G.E.'s housewares business in Canada, Brazil, Mexico and the housewares manufacturing facility in Singapore. About 8,500 G.E. workers, 3,500 of whom are employed at facilities in the United States, are affected by the sale.

The agreement specifies that Black & Decker can continue to use the G.E. brand on G.E. appliances currently in the housewares line for three years, after which they will carry the Black & Decker name.


Post# 371051 , Reply# 8   4/19/2017 at 13:04 by KirbyClassicIII (Milwaukie, Oregon)        
KirbystheBest

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Harley,

GE also sold its outdoor products division in Canada to Black & Decker, because when I looked up electric mowers on Kijiji (Canada's equivalent to eBay/Craigslist), I found pictures of CGE mowers with the B&D badging.

~Ben


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Post# 371052 , Reply# 9   4/19/2017 at 13:11 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

Yes, I believe it says in the article Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Singapore.

Post# 371054 , Reply# 10   4/19/2017 at 14:02 by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

This post has been removed by the webmaster.



Post# 371055 , Reply# 11   4/19/2017 at 14:37 by dysonman1 (Rolla, Missouri)        

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General Electric and Black & Decker (the maker of vacuum cleaner motors - which became Lamb Electric) had no relationship. You've posted a 1983 article, when in fact, Black & Decker had sold to Ametek decades before. Totally different thing.

Post# 371060 , Reply# 12   4/19/2017 at 16:28 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        
Just posted

Because I had seen a relationship between GE and B&D before. Companies buy and sell all the time. Have agreements to manufacture and distribute. They sue and form partnerships. The general public just doesn't know.

I was not around in 1940s so you would know better than I. 1983, wouldn't that have been around the time the still current VCCC was chartered? Maybe we can find out from one of the founders, Alex Tabor.


Post# 371065 , Reply# 13   4/19/2017 at 17:42 by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)        
yes, that is true.

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There's a great story about how the one and only V.C.C.C. began. It was John Lucia and Alex who began it.... starting at the Hoover Company. Stacey Krammes welcomed them and it all took off after that.
I wasn't a member then, but, I can provide very public info about its inception.
According the the club's historical documentation, it began there and is still alive and well. I've never seen any files about an old one, and, later, a new one.
All of this info can be obtained... minutes of all meetings are still kept for members to see.
I hope this clears up some of the many misconceptions. Others know far more than I do.


Post# 371082 , Reply# 14   4/19/2017 at 19:14 by Caligula (Benton, Pa)        
The V.C.C.C.C began January 2, 1983 and still going strong.

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Thank you John:

The Vacuum Cleaner Collector's Club began on January 2, 1983 and 34 years later is still alive and well.

You are absolutely correct, there was never a day that it didn't exist. Also let me assure you, every feature used today has been in place since the first meeting which was held in my mom's family room in Chesterton, Indiana. That was the weekend of May 4, 5, and 6, 1985. Business meeting, outing to see a vacuum shop which that year was The Henry Company, repair seminar, on an Electrolux 1205, banquet and awards. The only change was that in 85 we ended the meeting with the business talk as we used it to establish the rules and procedures. Three months later in August I bought a house in Naperville, Illinois and made that the official club headquarters until I relocated to California in 95. We even had a club mascot, my cat Caligula (shown above) which is now my username in his memory. That location was perfect as there was a motel on my corner called The Stardust, a Dunkin Donuts right down the street so I could provide breakfast for everybody, a family restaurant called Grandma Sally's and we held every banquet at a place called Rascal's from May 86 till May 93. As to the meetings in 94, we returned to our birthplace The Hoover Historical Center, and in 95 were guests of the Vac-Hunter, Bob Kautzman. It was also that weekend that I got approved for my new house and was on to San Diego that Monday.

Those were awesome years and we had a lot of fun.


Post# 371083 , Reply# 15   4/19/2017 at 19:22 by Caligula (Benton, Pa)        
The official club cake.

caligula's profile picture
How often do I post this? Birthdays, anniversaries, and so on. The origin was the first meeting in May of 85, and it's my mom's fingers on the box.

Alex Taber.


Post# 371084 , Reply# 16   4/19/2017 at 19:26 by gottahaveahoove (Pittston, Pennsylvania, 18640)        
wow, Alex. Thanks, so much for clearing all of that up.

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I was only in my early 20s when it all began. I had no idea that our club existed until Mike Pletcher (who lives only about an hour from me) told me about it. I 'lurked' for about a year, (I heard a lot happened at that time). I officially joined just before the convention in Ohio, celebrating Hoover's 100th birthday. It was there that I met Rick Benedict, the great Terry Lattz, and so many others. Of course, that weekend began a lifelong friendship with Tom Anderson, his family, and so many others whom I now call my friends. I return to N. Canton quite often, and have been welcomed in every building associated w/ The Hoover Co.even the buildings which have closed.

Everyday, I learn something new.
So, thanks, Alex, for being one of the "pioneers" in this .


Post# 371087 , Reply# 17   4/19/2017 at 20:14 by texaskirbyguy (Plano, TX)        
So back to the GE motor mystery...

In digging through old posts here I gave the pages of a service manual in this thread a good look.
www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-...

I did see some part numbers that looked very similar to the one I have in question, so it looks like GE was one of their motor parts suppliers.
Not sure how old this motor is, but the comm bars have some wear and an older open bearing is on the end. So probably pretty old.
Although the current is higher than rated, it runs super strong and does not spark, so I may just run it and see what happens. I did not pay much for it so no gamble, really.
Thanks to all for the leads!


Post# 371091 , Reply# 18   4/19/2017 at 20:26 by Caligula (Benton, Pa)        

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Rest assured there is no "OLD" VCCC! unless you consider being age 34 old.

The history is that I went to the Hoover Historical Center in August, 1980, was treated as a V.I.P. by Stack Krammes and Skip Marquat, (head of engineering) and left with tons of paperwork, pictures and so on. A year later Stacy forwarded a letter from John Lucia to me asking about Hoover models 150, and 700. I called him immediately. As far as we knew we were the only 'collectors' on the planet. A friendship was born with that phone call.

Cut to August 82, John told me he was doing a cross country trip and wanted to meet me, a trip to Hoover was also on the agenda. The second week of September John came to Chesterton, Indiana, stayed with my mom and me, and we went on to Hoover together.

That was a breakthrough weekend. Factory tour and both of us full V.I.P. all the way! As we were leaving the Historical Center Stacy gave me a list of people who had seen the center and might be collectors. I looked at this list and asked John "think we should form a club?" his exact words were "I doubt anybody would be interested, but write these people and see."

A week later I drafted a form letter and sent it out to the names on the list. All but one wrote back "yes, form the club." The one who didn't write was Craig Long, he jumped the gun, called me the minute he got the letter. 5 hour conversation from Buffalo, New York.

It took months to draft a newsletter but they went out before Christmas 82, and January 2, 83 became the official date of the clubs creation.

The first newsletter was a test but one that worked. The Vacuum Cleaner Collector's Club was a temporary name, but the members liked it. Still we needed letterhead, and a logo. Again I turned to Hoover. Stacy Krammes's daughter Liz was studying graphic art and I turned to her to create our logo. An abstract of The Baby Daisy, a non electric at the center. By March we had our logo, and were up and running.

We were a teaching club, a resource center and a place where people who had heard 'you collect what?' all their lives could go and get answers.

The club limped along till November of 84 and I lived in Lombard, Illinois. A member came to see me and asked if we could have a meeting. My response was "nobody's going to travel across the country to see some old vacuum cleaners" his response was "put the question in the newsletter" I did, in the Christmas issue, and the response was "when can we get together?" I set the first weekend of May and the place was my mom's family room.

That meeting was awesome, we created all the things that are still in place. We established the rules, set a cut off year on machines, and put numerous other things in place. But the best was yet to come, in August I bought a house in Naperville, Illinois. The address was 5 south 437 Sherman Avenue. It was a block south of Ogden Ave. where there was The Stardust motel, a Dunkin Donuts on my corner, a rental store a block away for folding chairs a coffee urn and so on. There were also restaurants galore including Rascal's which would host our banquets from 86 to 93.

I turned one room into the vacuum room, made my personal collection the official club collection and made my cat Caligula club mascot.

That in a nutshell is the history of how John Lucia and I formed the club. Who knew that the trip to Hoover in 1980 was going to lead to a major club. And it still boggles my mind.



Post# 371119 , Reply# 19   4/20/2017 at 09:37 by dysonman1 (Rolla, Missouri)        
I pick up the VCCC story in '95.

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The VCCC from '95 through 2007 was a very different club. RJ Vanik presented by-laws to the assembled club, they were voted on, and installed (they were discarded by the 'new' regime). There was no board of directors - we had a President, Vice President, and Treasurer. That's it. We had to file some legal papers about the club as well. We had printed, color newsletters, four a year. That's what the $25 membership fee bought. The conventions were very different from today, with many of the members from that time long gone from today's VCCC. Hans Craig is an excellent reference for what the club 'used' to be like, and the people who made it great. Today's VCCC is NOTHING like the old one.

Post# 371123 , Reply# 20   4/20/2017 at 09:50 by Caligula (Benton, Pa)        

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That's GARBAGE Tom and you know it!

There was only one VCCC. Yes, R. J. was part of that phase, but it was still the SAME club.

DEAL with it!


Post# 371124 , Reply# 21   4/20/2017 at 10:05 by Caligula (Benton, Pa)        
From the founder of the VCCC.

caligula's profile picture
While the club went through many phases the basic structure is the same. I retired in May of 95 after running the club for 12 years to have a new life in San Diego, California, and the club understandably went through a series of changes. As with all clubs it's been reconstructed, old ideas replaced, new management runs things and so on, but it was still the club John Lucia and I formed. There was never any dismantling of the club. Tom did not take it out of my name and put it in his. John Lucia and I are the ONLY names connected with the creation of The Vacuum Cleaner Collector's Club.

Robert Alexander Taber.



Post# 371126 , Reply# 22   4/20/2017 at 10:26 by Caligula (Benton, Pa)        

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I stated as it was and is and that is the last I want to say on that subject. Anybody who wants to can contact me personally and read the newsletters and information of the founding of the ONE and ONLY Vacuum Cleaner Collector's Club.

Post# 371152 , Reply# 23   4/20/2017 at 16:50 by dysonman1 (Rolla, Missouri)        

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It's a MUCH different club today. Not at all the same as it was. Just because someone 'founded' a club does not a club make. The VCCC is in no one's "name", that's ridiculous. I was at Bob Taber's house for his 'meeting' in the mid 1990's in his garage. There were 12 of us. The friendships I formed then have remained to this day. There was NO banquet, no 'cocktail hour', no convention 'fee', no pretentiousness.

Post# 371155 , Reply# 24   4/20/2017 at 17:26 by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

Sour grapes, anyone? Anyone,Bueller?

Post# 371184 , Reply# 25   4/21/2017 at 07:14 by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
Since my name was mentioned...

I will put in my two cents worth,It IS the same club,in theory, but unless its changed in the years I have been out of it ,its not like it was in the early years, I joined in 94, our meetings were FUN, we all got along and there were NO cliques,if it was like it was in the 90s and early 2000s, I would still be a member and still look forward to the conventions....I am too old and hot tempered to get a ulcer over silliness, Tom Gasko, Clay Floyd, Alex, John Lucia, Charles Lester, Mike Hays, Billy Lipman, Tania, John Young,Roger Proehl, Mike Rogers and several more were friends I made in the early years and still are friends today, You would have to experience one of our old meetings to understand what made them so special,We had no internet then, so the phone was it until we met once a year, we laughed and cut up all weekend and we actually learned about vacuum cleaners,it was affordable, fun and definitely not a contest to see how expensive a hotel or restaurant we could stay at or eat in...Hans Craig

Post# 371187 , Reply# 26   4/21/2017 at 07:20 by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
So I guess

What I'm really trying to say is, Comparing what it is today with what it was is like comparing a General Motors Frigidaire Washer with a WCI built Frigidaire...technically the same but a whole different animal in actuality.




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