Thread Number: 34101  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Direct air power nozzle
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Post# 369536   3/30/2017 at 05:43 (258 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Why dont manufacturers put a direct air motor in their power nozzle to increase airflow and deeper clean on carpet?

This will effectively create a tandem air machine like the Tacony cleaners.







Post# 369541 , Reply# 1   3/30/2017 at 07:02 (258 days old) by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
Air Way did

And Regina did in the late 60s and early 70s.

Post# 369542 , Reply# 2   3/30/2017 at 08:08 (258 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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It would be a good idea if it came back into fashion I think :-)

Post# 369543 , Reply# 3   3/30/2017 at 08:33 (258 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY)        

What about the Riccar Volt? I think that will bring even more power to machines like the Electrolux Model 30!

Post# 369547 , Reply# 4   3/30/2017 at 08:43 (258 days old) by kirbyvertibles (Independence, KS)        

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The problem with some is that the power nozzle has to much airflow and the canister motor struggles to keep up. This is the case for Airway. I have the Don Clark/ Airway configuration and when using them together it chokes off but if I turn off the canister then the power nozzle grabs the carpet better.


Hans, Did Regina only do this to their top models? I'm asking because I have a Regina Brush N Beat canister and power nozzle but my power nozzle is not tandem air.


Post# 369548 , Reply# 5   3/30/2017 at 08:45 (258 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Yes I've seen that. But why don't more manufacturers fit them. Would it add significantly to the cost putting a fan on the motor?
Or is the reason why we don't see them because they are more prone to damage?


Post# 369550 , Reply# 6   3/30/2017 at 08:51 (258 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Ah I see, it's difficult to balance the airflow of the 2 motors.

But Tacony have done it successfully?


Post# 369553 , Reply# 7   3/30/2017 at 09:31 (258 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
volt nozzle

Yes, Tacony has done it successfully. The volt nozzle is not only a power nozzle, but it has the dirty air design. It will actually pick up debris from the carpet with no vacuum attached to it. Of course, this is not very productive, but it does demonstrate the power the nozzle has. Combine that with a central vacuum or canister vacuum and the results are very good. I think they're coming out with a tandom air nozzle for the Prima canister as well. I wish they would upgrade their universal fit all central vacuum nozzle to this design too.

Post# 369554 , Reply# 8   3/30/2017 at 09:37 (258 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Tandem air nozzle for the Prima would make it very disirable.
Wish Riccar would come to the UK.They are making some fantastic cleaners!


Post# 369560 , Reply# 9   3/30/2017 at 10:31 (257 days old) by ralph123 (Little Rock, AR)        

I'm not as bullish on the Tandem design. I like the bypass design or direct air design but not both combined in the same machine. I don't want the disadvantages of both. They just need to work on optimizing the nozzle. If Miele uprights can get a top score in carpet cleaning tests (Consumer Reports) with a bypass design, so can Riccar/Simplicity. The nozzle design has got to be better. Needs less dead space.

Post# 369562 , Reply# 10   3/30/2017 at 10:44 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Well you could have the advantages of both motors too.
I wasn't all that keen on the Miele S7 or U1 or whatever it's called now.
Infact retailers are no longer selling it in the UK.


Post# 369581 , Reply# 11   3/30/2017 at 13:44 (257 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
disadvantages

What do you think are the disadvantages of each system? For the dirty air design, it does not work as well with attachments, but with a power nozzle, that's a nonissue. The main disadvantage I can see with the clean air design is that you need good filtration in order to prevent dust from getting in to the motor, but that's the case regardless of whether you use a tandom nozzle. I think one appeal of the volt nozzle is that it can give good carpet cleaning abilities to a vacuum that otherwise does not have it, such as a straight suction canister or central vacuum with nonelectric hose.

Post# 369582 , Reply# 12   3/30/2017 at 13:50 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Yes there are more advantages than disadvantages. More Tandem air cleaners please :)

Post# 369584 , Reply# 13   3/30/2017 at 14:15 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Can it be that the "plastic crap" Shark is giving the Kirby a run for the money? 😱

Post# 369586 , Reply# 14   3/30/2017 at 14:32 (257 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

Tortoise and the Hare. 


Post# 369588 , Reply# 15   3/30/2017 at 14:37 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Which one is the tortoise? 😁

Post# 369589 , Reply# 16   3/30/2017 at 15:05 (257 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

Tortise would be the Kirby.  In in for the long haul.  Will be there 20, 30, 50 years down the line. 

 

Shark=Hare.  Short burst of speed, won't usually see the next fiscal year. Definitely won't be here in five years.  


Post# 369590 , Reply# 17   3/30/2017 at 15:11 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Haha true. But I keep hearing how much deeper a direct air motor will clean carpets but is that exaggerated?

The Kirby will last decades which is a big plus but I was always led to believe they cleaned a lot deeper than a clean air machine.


Post# 369607 , Reply# 18   3/30/2017 at 22:47 (257 days old) by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

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Not so fast on the tandem air power nozzle parade here, guys. There are some advantages to adding a tandem air power nozzle to a canister to increase airflow & cleaning power, for sure, no denying that. But, there are also some disadvantages Tacony is going to have to address with the Riccar Prima & Simplicity Wonder canisters & the tandem air power nozzle, & find solutions for them.

For starters, one BIG problem they are going to have to overcome is the bag material used to make the HEPA Cloth bags, & the bag chamber design. What Phillip - Kirbyvertibles says above about the Air Way tandem air canister design is true....the canister could not keep up with the tandem air power nozzle. Even Tom Gasko has said this was a issue with them. Why? Because they used paper bags that the pores of the bag clogged quickly even before the tandem air power nozzle was added, choking off airflow in the canister, & adding the airflow the fan from the tandem air power nozzle would add would exacerbate the problem even more. The only way to solve this problem would be to use a HEPA Cloth bag that doesn't clog easily. The problem here, unfortunately, is that Tacony's HEPA Cloth canister bags for all their canisters are only 3 ply HEPA Cloth bags, just like everyone else except Miele uses. It's been my experience, unfortunately, that the Tacony HEPA Cloth bags do clog fairly quickly, at about 1/3 full. The only HEPA Cloth bags I have found for canister vacuums that maintain their airflow well are the Miele Airclean bags, those bags you can fill up to 3/4 full until you start to see any loss in airflow, since they are 9 ply HEPA Cloth bags. So, in order to optimize airflow the canister produces, Tacony will have to copy the Miele Airclean bag design & make a 9 ply HEPA Cloth bag, as well as redesign the bag chamber to accommodate it. Since Miele just came out with that bag design only a few years ago, they will have to wait a long time before they can do that though.

The other problem with the tandem air power nozzle is it eliminates one classic canister power nozzle design: the funnel shaped brushroll chamber. The reason why canisters clean better than uprights, in most cases, is twofold: 1. Canisters produce more suction & airflow to pull in more dirt, more quickly. 2. The funnel shaped brushroll chamber in a canister power nozzle replicates the functionality of a bell shaped upright vacuum power nozzle housing, like the Kirby & Royal designs, & most of the old direct air uprights from the 1930's & 1940's, like General Electric. The funnel shaped brushroll chamber design in a canister power nozzle & bell shaped upright vacuum power nozzle design ensures airflow is evenly spread throughout the entire powerhead, meaning as the brushroll loosens the dirt from the carpet pile it gets carried away evenly by the airflow into the vacuum. With the tandem air power nozzle design, it's designed just like a lightweight direct air upright design: fan producing suction & airflow on one side, belt on the other side. This means that airflow isn't even throughout the tandem air power nozzle like it would be in a traditional canister power nozzle design. What I would like Tacony see doing with the tandem air power nozzle design is to incorporate the Hoover Windtunnel brushroll chamber design into the tandem air power nozzle's design. This would overcome the uneven airflow effect & ensure even airflow inside the tandem air power nozzle & therefore ensure optimum cleaning power & dirt removal from carpets. Again, though, they are going to have to wait a few years until Hoover's patents on the Windtunnel design expires before they can copy it.

I am in favor of the tandem air power nozzle, don't get me wrong. I just think that while it is a good idea & has some merit, it could still use some further refinement & some tweaks to the tandem air power nozzle design, as well as the canister vacuum design to ensure the concept of a tandem air power nozzle added to a canister vacuum performs at it's best & doesn't disappoint the consumer that buys it to use in their home. I really do think once the bag design is improved, as well as the airflow characteristics inside the brushroll chamber of the tandem air power nozzle are improved & optimized, this will be a huge success for Tacony.

Rob


Post# 369608 , Reply# 19   3/30/2017 at 23:48 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I understand the problem with the bag clogging but you said motor on one side belt on other. Wouldn't the fan be in the centre of the floor nozzle like it is on the Riccar tandem air uprights? There's a plastic intake with a 90 degree angle that seals against the fan. Doesn't that give an even distribution of airflow across the floorhead?

Post# 369609 , Reply# 20   3/30/2017 at 23:58 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Do canisters produce more airflow and clean better than uprights? Surely a Kirby or Metal Royal would clean better than any canister?

Post# 369616 , Reply# 21   3/31/2017 at 02:31 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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My apologies you are correct about the air intake not being evenly distributed across the floor nozzle.

So right now the best combo would be a direct air motor cleaner for use on carpets and a canister cleaner for other jobs.
That's what I have. A Kirby Sentria 2 and a Miele S5 and C3


Post# 369624 , Reply# 22   3/31/2017 at 07:05 (257 days old) by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

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Marcus - Unfortunately, that thinking would be wrong. For the longest time, canisters have been able to hold their own against ANY direct air upright, when they have a new bag installed. The only thing really holding back canisters until now was the bag chamber design & clogging paper bags. Miele has finally solved that problem with the 9 ply Airclean bags. Most of us vac collectors have thought that since the fan is so close to the powerhead on a Kirby or Royal, & because airflow is so important to proper cleaning & how much airflow they produce, that a Kirby or Royal would outclean a canister. Until now.

Reality is, your Miele canisters, when used with the SEB228 or SEB236 pn, will clean every bit as well as your Kirby Sentria II. It's not how close the airflow is to the nozzle that matters. It's how much airflow the motor produces, how evenly that airflow is distributed throughout the powerhead, proper agitation by the powerhead brushroll, & how fast that airflow carries the dirt into the bag that really affects how a vacuum performs. Today's canister vacuum motors are capable of producing HUGE amounts of airflow & waterlift, in some cases they will match central vac performance. That's something direct air uprights will NEVER be able to do, it's a limitation that technology has due to their fan design.

I have a 1992 Kenmore EVPC canister that I put a new motor in, from the Perfect C101 (Electrolux Diamond Jubilee copy), that pulls 125" waterlift. It's strong enough that with a new bag, it will outpower a central vac. That vacuum, if you put it in a head to head challenge with a Kirby Sentria, Avalir or newer Royal Metal, will EASILY match or beat the Kirby or Royal if you did a "big mess test" like Kode1996 does on YouTube.

Rob


Post# 369625 , Reply# 23   3/31/2017 at 07:16 (257 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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That is very interesting. I have noticed that the Miele has strong airflow but I didn't think it could match the Kirby.

Maybe I should do the powder under the carpet test with my Miele S5 and see if it will pick it up like the Sentria 2 did.

Do you think the Baird meter is a good test for airflow and what will the Miele score?




Post# 369675 , Reply# 24   3/31/2017 at 15:17 (256 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

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Marcus,

 

Although I generally agree with Rob on most things, I do not agree with him when it comes to a canister vac out cleaning a Kirby or Royal. First, you need to have a nozzle that seals to the carpet like Kirby or Royal. I don't know of any canister that has a power nozzle that seals to the carpet. I don't care how much waterlift you have, it's airflow and agitation that cleans the carpet! That's why Tacony invented the Volt power nozzle - to increase the normally weak airflow of most canisters. But even the Volt coupled to the best canister vac cannot outclean a Sentria II or Royal Everlast.

 

I believe Rob will chime in and tell you all the reasons he believes I am wrong, but that's okay because it's up to you Marcus, to agree with whomever you feel makes the most sense to you.

 

I would challenge Rob to provide a video that shows a canister outcleaning a Kirby Sentria II or Avalir.

 

 


Post# 369689 , Reply# 25   3/31/2017 at 19:18 (256 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Miele Canister Airflow Prediction #1

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I love a challenge. So it has been claimed that a modern canister can keep up with a modern Kirby. Let's check some possible calculations rather than just making unfounded claims based on things other than airflow.

Miele Complete C3 Cat & Dog
Stated airflow is 141 CFM. This is a motor spec and I'm about 99% sure that is a spec of that very motor running "naked". That is NOT installed in the vacuum itself. If you doubt me, just check the motor specs for the Lux Guardian, rated at 505 Airwatts and 116" of water lift.

What everybody seems to forget is that ALL canisters have a major disadvantage compared to uprights and especially compared to Kirby or any similar machine (i.e. Royal). Please see below:

Kirby airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*ONE*

Typical canister airflow connections required to get the air to the power nozzle.
*FIVE to SIX*

In addition, canisters have a length of hose and some type of U-bend to redirect the airflow to the base of the power nozzle.

For your examination and comment, please see the best case scenario for the wildly expensive Miele C3. Even if the C3 could begin with 141 CFM, by the time the airflow gets to the power nozzle, you're left with just 109 CFM.

For comparison purposes, my 1987 Kirby Heritage Legend II does 121 CFM and my newer Sentria II does 137 CFM both measured at the nozzle.

Stay tuned for version #2 of the Miele C3 airflow prediction, which I believe to be a more accurate representation of its performance.

Bill


Post# 369692 , Reply# 26   3/31/2017 at 19:40 (256 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Miele Canister Airflow Prediction #2

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Here's what my airflow prediction would be for a typical scenario for a Miele C3.

Starting with 141 CFM for the motor not installed in the unit itself.
Dropping 11 CFM to 130 CFM for a canister base measurement.
Dropping 12 CFM to 118 CFM for hose and typical hose curl.
Dropping 20 CFM to 98 CFM for wand and U-joint connections.

Compare to a typical G series Kirby at 120-ish CFM or the improved Sentria II/Avalir at closer to 140 CFM.

So I'm forced to conclude that canisters simply will have less airflow at the nozzle than something similar in an upright. The only way (if I was designing one) that a canister could have dirty air upright airflow would be to have either a much larger hose diameter (think truck mount 2.5" to 3.0") or motors well over 2000 watts.

Bill


Post# 369713 , Reply# 27   4/1/2017 at 00:07 (256 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I have to admit I am a little sceptical that a Miele or any other high quality canister will match or even clean better than a Kirby
With airflow at the floor nozzle of around 100 CFM the Miele will clean very well though.

If someone can provide evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it 😁

I do own a Miele S5 and C3 but not with a power nozzle. I would like to get one with the 217 PN but there's not one available in Europe. I think you have the Topaz in the US. I don't know why Miele don't offer this model in Europe. Very annoying! Not everyone wants the full size 228 or 236 PN


Post# 369764 , Reply# 28   4/1/2017 at 22:15 (255 days old) by kenkart (Mocksville, NC)        
Re Brush and beat

I always thought the Brush and Beat canister used the same head as the upright, it LOOKED the same.....

Post# 369921 , Reply# 29   4/3/2017 at 19:00 (253 days old) by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

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Marcus - If you want to feel how strong your Miele canister's airflow is, hold your hand up to the underside of the rug nozzle. It will surprise you how strong the airflow is, even after going thru the hose & wand.

As for the Baird being a good way to measure airflow? No, I don't think it is. One has to remember that the Baird meter was designed for Kirby salesmen to cheat & show off how strong the Kirby's airflow is while giving a demonstration. It is designed to make the Kirby look good & impress a customer, NOT to be accurate. Bill, my apologies if that offends you, I do appreciate you doing your airflow tests & they are interesting. I just feel that a digital airflow meter would be a better way to measure a vacuum's airflow than the Baird meter would be.

Stan - "I don't know of any canister that has a power nozzle that seals to the carpet". Oh really, eh? Well, I do know two canisters that seal to the carpet. Check out this video of the Plush Pro nozzle on the latest Panasonic canisters, you can CLEARLY see the regular Panasonic PN design sealing to the ultra plush carpeting & impossible to move.


And here's another video that shows a Simplicity Gusto sealing to the ultra plush carpet before adding the adapters to convert it to use on ultra plush.


And let's not forget the Wessell Werk EBK360 SoftClean powerhead that was designed specifically because they seal to ultra plush carpeting. The reason you feel that "seal" more when using a Kirby or Royal is because the weight of the motor is pushing the powerhead down into the carpeting, but that doesn't mean a canister isn't capable of sealing to a carpet as well, it's just you don't feel it as much.

Bill - Sorry, but you shouldn't have picked a Miele as your example vacuum to demonstrate your point. The airflow losses you are proposing just aren't realistic, in this case. Today's canisters, for the most part, have done away with buttonlockers for the hose & wand connections, & they have been replaced with clips like the Miele you show. The only ones that use buttonlockers, to my knowledge, are Kenmore/Panasonic canisters & the Riccar Prima/Simplicity Wonder, amongst residential canisters. The reason for this is twofold: 1. To improve indoor air quality & make the canister a sealed filtration system. Now, most canister vacuums, when they say their HEPA Filtration is part of a certified sealed system, it's not just the canister & filter that is sealed, it's the ENTIRE vacuum. It's not just dirty air that can escape around the filter that is an issue, it's also how much dust & dirt the powerhead kicks back up into the air instead of the airflow picking it up & carrying it to the bag & filter system. In addition to the powerhead needing to be sealed & making efficient use of the vacuum's airflow, the wands & hose connections themselves must be sealed, otherwise it will reduce the efficiency of the powerhead if all the airflow doesn't go to it, & any air that escapes from the wand is also dirty air that will escape unfiltered & pollute the room air. It's a issue all the manufacturers are starting to take seriously. Tacony introduced a hose & wand seal for the Prima & Wonder called "Seal Tite", & Electrolux AB has silicone seals around the hose & wand connections as well. Therefore, unlike your second results claim, it is VERY realistic for a modern canister like a Miele to have 120 CFM at the nozzle, & to clean just as well as a Kirby

And as for waterlift not affecting carpet cleaning & airflow & agitation being more important? Again, I disagree there. If you look at a vacuum motor's performance charts, you will see a direct correlation to vacuum motors that have higher waterlift numbers also having high airflow numbers. When viewed on a chart, it's clear that waterlift & airflow CFM rise & fall in correlation to each other. So, in short, if the motor isn't producing high waterlift, it isn't producing high airflow to properly clean.

Rob


Post# 369928 , Reply# 30   4/3/2017 at 21:18 (253 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Rob,

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I challenge you to prove me wrong. Really, please prove me wrong. I want to see some airflow numbers from the almighty Mieles please!

And I do use a digital anemomter, a GM8901 in fact. How on Earth do you think I've produced my airflow numbers these last few years?

Oh, and as for the Baird meter being designed to "fake" people out that Kirby has high airflow, here's where you don't understand the TWO ways a Baird can measure airflow.

#1) From the body of a Kirby. Of course a dirty air fan system measured right from the fan intake will show a "10". This measurement can only be done with a modern "G" series machine because of the adapter provided on one end on the tester.

#2) From the end of a hose. Did you know that most newer Kirbys still pull more airflow from the end of their hose than any other vacuum out there? My Sentria II pulls above a "10" (actual 120 CFM measured digitally).

Now, I'm very sorry if I've offended you or anyone else in this forum, but I've read far too many posts that claim completely false things about the Baird meter and I've had just about enough of it! That meter, when plugged into the end of a hose cannot tell what type or brand of machine it's hooked up to. Only in case #1 can someone see a measurement that may or may not be "unfair" to other machines.

Regarding the correlation you claim with high airflow means high water lift, please explain the below:

Kirby Sentria II (dirty air)
Nozzle airflow: 137 CFM
Water lift: 34"

Hoover custom convertible (dirty air)
Nozzle airflow: 107 CFM
Water lift: 25"

Hoover Tempo Widepath (clean air)
Nozzle airflow: 80 CFM
Hose airflow: 106 CFM
Water lift: 80"

Do you see the pathetically low water lift and outrageously high airflow in these two dirty air machines? If you take the airflow and put it through tubing and various other connections, you'd better have more water lift to keep that airflow going or it will drop like a stone, but no matter what you do with a canister type machine that airflow will always be worse than most direct air machines.

Remember, I'm the testing nutjob that built his own airflow box and grabbed an digital anemometer to produce results like this:


Post# 369945 , Reply# 31   4/4/2017 at 00:50 (253 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Very interesting points from both Bill and Mike. Who is correct? Hmmmmm

Post# 369966 , Reply# 32   4/4/2017 at 07:16 (253 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Wichita, KS)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 370010 , Reply# 33   4/4/2017 at 13:24 (252 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

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Well Rob,

 

I was going to point out all the things you got wrong in your post #29 but Bill beat me to it.  It's better that he correct all of your misinformation because he has all of those measurements that he has so painstakingly gathered over time to back him up.

 

Bill, thanks again for creating and updating all of those charts of measurements that I and many other Vacuumlanders have come to refer to time and time again.

 

 


Post# 370014 , Reply# 34   4/4/2017 at 13:44 (252 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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It's an interesting debate. I still think the Kirby will have the most airflow along with Royal but a Miele C3 will still have enough airflow to clean carpets very well.

Post# 370080 , Reply# 35   4/5/2017 at 09:27 (252 days old) by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

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Bill - I don't have the exact CFM & waterlift numbers for the Miele C3 canisters right on hand, I will have to do some digging around & see what I can find. But, then again, might I remind you that you yourself claim to know this....after all, it was YOU in your reply posts 25 & 26 that claims to have the actual numbers.

As for your testing & the Baird meter, again I do appreciate your tests & find them interesting. I was not aware you use a digital anemometer in addition to the Baird meter as part of your tests. However, I still do not believe the Baird meter, regardless of how it is used to test a vacuum or which vacuum is being tested, & do not believe it can be relied on as a accurate measuring tool to measure vacuum airflow, & as I said above, it is designed to produce false airflow number designed to make a Kirby look good during a in-home demonstration. It's bad enough, I personally think it should be banned!

Regarding the correlation between high waterlift & high airflow CFM numbers for vacuum motors, & how you need high waterlift to produce high airflow CFM, I was referring directly to clean air vacuum motors, the type used in canisters & clean air uprights. I was NOT referring to direct air motors, as there is hardly any produced anymore, & those that are don't publish those numbers.

Furthermore, the Hoover Tempo & Hoover Convertible you point out as your examples are actually BAD examples, & go to prove even more what I am talking about here. What your testing DOES NOT account for, & this is crucial, is how well the cleaner maintains it's airflow as the bag fills. Regarding direct-air uprights, the ONLY ones that don't drastically lose airflow as the bag fills are ones that have a bell-shaped powerhead, such as Kirby, Royal, & the designs used by GE & others in the 30's & 40's. The other designs....side mounted motor with fan on one side/belt on the other, such as Oreck, Hoover Elite, Eureka Bravo, etc....& bottom mounted fan & belt, such as Eureka F&G & Hoover Convertible, all of them lose their power VERY QUICKLY, with the bag being only 1/4 or 1/3 full before they lose 60 to 70% of the airflow they have. Most bagged clean-air uprights, with some exceptions are just as bad, due to gravity. With the vast majority of them, dirt enters the top of the bag, falls to the bottom, & starts building up on top of the motor vent & pre-motor filter inside the bag, which in turn suffocates the motor & chokes off the airflow, again most having only 60 to 70% airflow left with a bag being only 1/4 or 1/3 full. Canister vacuums, on the other hand, do NOT have this issue, since the bag is on it's side inside the vac, which means they maintain their airflow better than clean-air uprights. Provided the canister in question has a properly designed bag chamber, & HEPA Cloth bags are used, it will outclean a clean-air upright & match the performance of a Kirby or Royal. The only exceptions are bagless uprights, & some newer designs that avoid the bag coming into contact with the pre-motor filter, such as the Kenmore PowerFlow/Panasonic OptiFlow system. Ever wonder WHY Hoover made such a large bag for the Dial-A-Matic, yet they made the actual usable capacity of the bag so small? They knew what impact a filling bag would have on airflow & the vacuum's power to clean properly!

So, Bill, your statement above that a canister vacuum's airflow will be worse than a upright is FALSE! And if you REALLY think your statement is true, then I challenge you to go ahead & take 10 identical uprights, put them in people's homes, have them use them normally as they would to clean otherwise, & then check back in a couple of weeks & test their airflow with partially filled bags. I guarantee if you tested those cleaners with partially filled bags, you wouldn't be so impressed with their performance!

Even your own testing even proves you wrong! In your test results, you show that a 1980 Electrolux Olympia One has a PN CFM density of 3.55, beating out a Kirby Heritage II with 3.33 & a Kirby G6 with 3.54, & coming pretty close to matching a Kirby G5 with 3.69 & Kirby G4 with 3.61. Considering this is isn't even a modern canister vacuum, & has only 85" waterlift, I can only imagine how much better PN CFM a modern Miele, Sebo or Riccar/Simplicity canister would have.

And by the way, my opinion comes from REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. My Mom, when she was alive, had her own cleaning business for over 37 years, & we both cleaned many commercial & residential properties together, & we used pretty much everything available for residential & commercial use. You name it, I have seen & used it!
I'm not just someone with a hobby who decided to "test" things at home, I have REAL experience using both uprights & canisters, & I know what the heck I am talking about! So, let's see your testing reflect results with REAL LIFE test results, & then we'll talk! Maybe next time you'll think before you challenge someone who REALLY knows what they're talking about.

Rob


Post# 370081 , Reply# 36   4/5/2017 at 09:48 (252 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Good points from Rob.

What about the Sebo X series. This has the pre motor filter to the side of the bag. That won't choke off the airflow as the bag fills will it? I always thought that was a good design.


Post# 370111 , Reply# 37   4/5/2017 at 17:23 (251 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Partial Reply #1,

wyaple's profile picture
Bill - I don't have the exact CFM & waterlift numbers for the Miele C3 canisters right on hand, I will have to do some digging around & see what I can find. But, then again, might I remind you that you yourself claim to know this....after all, it was YOU in your reply posts 25 & 26 that claims to have the actual numbers.

==============================================================================
That’s funny, I clearly typed “Theoretical” in the upper left hand side of the picture. Did you not see this?
==============================================================================

As for your testing & the Baird meter, again I do appreciate your tests & find them interesting. I was not aware you use a digital anemometer in addition to the Baird meter as part of your tests. However, I still do not believe the Baird meter, regardless of how it is used to test a vacuum or which vacuum is being tested, & do not believe it can be relied on as a accurate measuring tool to measure vacuum airflow, & as I said above, it is designed to produce false airflow number designed to make a Kirby look good during a in-home demonstration. It's bad enough, I personally think it should be banned!

==============================================================================
I have proven the above claim to be patently false in my previous reply. The Baird meter is an excellent tool for comparing hose airflow. Convert a Kirby and test the hose and you’ll see very high numbers. Then hook the Baird to another machine (say a canister) and repeat the test. Compare the results. The Baird meter is accurate and even nearly linear from about 0.5 to and 8.0.

It is only when comparing motor body airflow that the Baird can give difficult to interpret readings. For example, what happens when the disc goes well above a “10”? You can’t really tell or compare what it’s doing because the meter is “maxed out”. And the fact that with the hose adapter removed it can only fit a G series machine.
==============================================================================

Regarding the correlation between high waterlift & high airflow CFM numbers for vacuum motors, & how you need high waterlift to produce high airflow CFM, I was referring directly to clean air vacuum motors, the type used in canisters & clean air uprights. I was NOT referring to direct air motors, as there is hardly any produced anymore, & those that are don't publish those numbers.

==============================================================================
Well it’s a real bummer that there are a few models out there that I have tested that have very high water lift (think bag and bag less uprights) in the 75”-120” range that choose to “waste” their high airflow by forcing it through cyclones and around the power head to make the vacuum easier to push.
==============================================================================

Rob,

Stay tuned for part 2 where I put up some test results regarding HEPA bag airflow losses. I had to break up my responses into two parts due to text character limitations.

Bill


Post# 370115 , Reply# 38   4/5/2017 at 17:55 (251 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Partial Reply #2

wyaple's profile picture
Furthermore, the Hoover Tempo ...

So, Bill, your statement ...

*See Rob's Original Text Above *

===============================================================================
You’re in luck! I have done such tests! I will publish them here I believe for the first time.

Cloth HEPA Bag Losses (Same dirt type in all three bags of course)

Hoover Tempo Widepath (Crucial HEPA Bag)
0% full = 114 CFM (Body) and 106 CFM (Hose)
50% full = 97 CFM (Body) and 90 CFM (Hose)
100% full = 99 CFM (Body) and 91 CFM (Hose) <-No, those numbers are not a mistake, dirt can shift in the bag slightly affecting results by a percent or two.

Electrolux Olympia One (Perfect HEPA Bag, new vinyl hose)
0% full = 102 CFM (Body) and 85 CFM Hose
50% full = 85 CFM (Body) and I don’t have the hose measurement handy
100% full = 87 CFM (Body) and 79 CFM Hose

Kirby Heritage II Legend (Kirby HEPA Bag, new Amodel fan installed)
0% full = 161 CFM (Body) and 105 CFM (Hose)
75% full = 141 CFM (Body) and 105 CFM (Hose)
100% full = Didn’t perform formal measurements but quick check yielded no appreciable additional losses. It’s the reader’s choice if this would be believable or not.

Full Bag (Kirby 75%) Body RESULTS:
#1 with probably a few CFM less than this is the Kirby at <141 CFM
#2 with 99 CFM is the Hoover Tempo
#3 with 87 CFM is the Electrolux

Full Bag (Kirby 75%) Hose RESULTS:
#1 with probably a few CFM less than this is the Kirby at <105 CFM
#2 with 91 CFM is the Hoover Tempo
#3 with 79 CFM is the Electrolux
===============================================================================


Post# 370116 , Reply# 39   4/5/2017 at 17:59 (251 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Partial Reply #3

wyaple's profile picture
=============================================================================
So let’s see, your claim of 60%-70% airflow loss is totally bogus when using HEPA cloth bags. I do not use nor recommend paper bags of any type and even my U4007 Convertible has a Hoover Q HEPA bag installed now. Please see my post in the Vintage Forum as to my discovery that most Convertibles may not lose any airflow even when the bag fills partially due to belt and brush roll “pre-loading” of the motor. It’s quite fascinating!

Percent lost from empty to full (75% Kirby) HEPA bag:
Electrolux (Body) = 14.7%, Electrolux (Hose) = 7.1%
Tempo (Body) = 13.2%, Tempo (Hose) = 14.2%
Heritage II (Body) > 12.4%, Heritage II (Hose) = 0% <- Yes, I know that’s weird but apparently Kirby’s high speed hose mode make up the difference somehow.
=============================================================================

Even your own testing even proves you wrong! In your test results, you show that a 1980 Electrolux Olympia One has a PN CFM density of 3.55, beating out a Kirby Heritage II with 3.33 & a Kirby G6 with 3.54, & coming pretty close to matching a Kirby G5 with 3.69 & Kirby G4 with 3.61. Considering this is isn't even a modern canister vacuum, & has only 85" waterlift, I can only imagine how much better PN CFM a modern Miele, Sebo or Riccar/Simplicity canister would have.

=============================================================================
Dude, really? I guess you don’t understand the effects of CFM density. This very response is why sometimes I worry about posting results. CFM Density is only a ratio of nozzle airflow to nozzle size. It cannot by itself tell you how well a machines cleans.

EXAMPLE:

2004 Dirt Devil Swift Stick: 30 CFM (Filter installed) and a nozzle area of 3.25”. This gives a CFM density of a whopping 9.32 besting all the other machines I have. Does it deep clean? Of course not, but it’ll suck small items and fine dust from a 6 inch swath of bare floor pretty well…until the filter clogs, which is just a few seconds.
=============================================================================



Post# 370117 , Reply# 40   4/5/2017 at 18:03 (251 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Partial Reply #4

wyaple's profile picture
And by the way, my opinion comes from REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. My Mom, when she was alive, had her own cleaning business for over 37 years, & we both cleaned many commercial & residential properties together, & we used pretty much everything available for residential & commercial use. You name it, I have seen & used it!
I'm not just someone with a hobby who decided to "test" things at home, I have REAL experience using both uprights & canisters, & I know what the heck I am talking about! So, let's see your testing reflect results with REAL LIFE test results, & then we'll talk! Maybe next time you'll think before you challenge someone who REALLY knows what they're talking about.

Rob

========================================================================
I’ll let Vacuumlanders have the last word on who’s the most believable.

And to that end I have one last thing to prove about canister airflow loss. And the base numbers will not come from me, they will be from Ametek Lamb. Stay tuned!

Bill
========================================================================


Post# 370119 , Reply# 41   4/5/2017 at 18:23 (251 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Using This Ametek Lamb Motor in a Miele C3...

wyaple's profile picture
Would probably be overkill, but I wanted to find something that had as close to 141 CFM as possible to prove a point. No matter what CFM the motor starts with, you must take into account the hose diameter that will feed your power nozzle.

Please examine my red highlighted box in their bulletin. At a 2" opening you have a whopping 140 CFM. At a fully blocked or sealed opening, you have an equally whopping 140" of lift.

Now I call your attention to what happens when the opening is reduced to 1.125". The airflow drops like a stone from 140 CFM to 106 CFM (I'm rounding). Now add additional losses for things like:

1) base hose connection
2) hose looping/curling
3) hose to base handle connection
4) wand length #1
5) wand length #2
6) wand to u-joint
7) typical 45 degree angle of u-joint

There simply will be at least 15-20 CFM additional losses. So I would expect a Miele C3 with a fresh HEPA bag to have around 90-ish CFM at the power nozzle. Compare to a Sentria II that has 137 CFM or a Heritage II Legend through a G6 that has around 120 CFM.

Bill


Post# 370123 , Reply# 42   4/5/2017 at 21:37 (251 days old) by Tseg (World Traveller)        

2 questions. I get that leaks reduce airflow at the nozzle/floorhead... But if the motor is sucking in when on I don't see how any dust escapes through leaks when traveling to the motor because leaks will also be sucking in air, inhibiting dust escape... It seems a sealed system helps maintain airflow but not sure how critical it is to prevent escaping dust when motor is on?

The next question about airflow needed to cause floorhead seal to floor... with a C3 with AirTeQ suction-only head at full power it is basically stuck to any carpet and is almost impossible to move without hopping it across the carpet forwards and significant pull backwards which lifts the carpet off the floor. I'm not sure I understand any relevancy related to 'seal to floor' comments about floorheads and airflow other than it is related to the underside design of a floorhead.


Post# 370127 , Reply# 43   4/6/2017 at 00:03 (251 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Sebo introduced a tapered hose which is supposed to increase airflow. It's wider at the body end.

Can someone please test a Miele C3 with a Baird meter so we can see the CFM at the end of the hose.

My guess is it will around about 100 CFM +/- 10 CFM


Post# 370128 , Reply# 44   4/6/2017 at 00:20 (251 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Just found the CFM for the Miele C3 at end of the hose. It is 94 CFM. :)

Post# 370130 , Reply# 45   4/6/2017 at 01:02 (251 days old) by kirbylux77 (Orillia, Ontario, Canada)        

kirbylux77's profile picture
Marcus - About the Sebo X series uprights & maintaining airflow & suction power. Yes, you are right. The pre-motor filter being on the side should indeed help the cleaner maintain power longer. Now, the only problem I can see with them is the fact that they used paper bags for so many years, which would clog fairly quickly. And although they do have HEPA Cloth bags now for the uprights, they are only a 3 ply bag. One thing about the new Sebo Mechanical uprights that were recently introduced, though, is they FINALLY put a pleated HEPA filter on the exhaust! I guess they figured a change was required when Miele went after them, claiming in their advertising for the Miele S7/Dynamic U1 uprights that they had the Sebo uprights were tested & found to be horrible for dust emissions. Now, if only they had a bit more suction thru the hose & a way to shut off the brushroll for bare floors, I would be tempted to buy one.

The other bagged uprights that would be superior at maintaining airflow would be the Kenmore PowerFlow/Panasonic OptiFlow uprights, Riccar Radiance & Simplicity Synergy Tandem Air uprights, Hoover Dial-A-Matic uprights, & newer body style Riccar Vibrance/Simplicity Symmetry uprights. Tacony has developed a system of plastic bars in the bag chamber that help keep the bag off of the pre-motor filter & motor vent. The copies of the Sebo X Series, such as the Hoover Insight/Hoover Profile, that have the same design, would also be superior at maintaining airflow as well.

Might I ask where you found the CFM ratings for the Miele C3 canisters, Marcus? It seems almost impossible to find that kind of information for Miele vacuums. If you could post a link please, I would appreciate it.

Rob


Post# 370131 , Reply# 46   4/6/2017 at 01:26 (251 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Do you mean the Sebo Evolution? And yes the Sebo X series will show up as horrible dust emissions but this is carbon dust from the motor. The S class filter is before the motor, which has the added benefit of offering excellent protection of the motor. They have a Hepa filter available in the US for the X series which will filter a little better than the electrostatic filter but not much. The electrostatic filter has the advantage of slightly more open pores so allow more airflow and last longer.

This was on Amazon. Someone said the CFM was 148. A few people pointed out that was at the motor and it was 94 at the end of the hose.

Not sure where they got this info or how accurate it is.


Post# 370143 , Reply# 47   4/6/2017 at 10:56 (250 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Mark,

wyaple's profile picture
Please, please, please post the link and/or text in which you found 94 CFM and the hose end! If this is true, and I'm most definitely saying that it may not be, that would mean super colossal airflow losses in a nearly $1000 canister. As a reference, my 1980 Lux with a new vinyl hose does 95 CFM at the end of the hose.

And I found the 141 CFM motor spec from various dealers that sell this unit (not Amazon though).

Bill


Post# 370144 , Reply# 48   4/6/2017 at 11:03 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
There was a C3 for sale on Amazon. Someone asked a question "What is the CFM?"
Someone replied 145 CFM.
Then 2 people replied that is at the motor. It's 94 at the end of the hose.

Don't know where they got the info from.


Post# 370145 , Reply# 49   4/6/2017 at 11:07 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Here's the link. Scroll down to questions.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo4me's LINK


Post# 370150 , Reply# 50   4/6/2017 at 12:08 (250 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
If Those Amazon Numbers Are True...

wyaple's profile picture
than that would be absolutely shocking! Think about it: a well respected, high priced canister that has no better airflow at the hose than this 1980 Electrolux (new hose). So what people are buying when purchasing a Miele is exhaust filtration at an outrageous price.

Post# 370151 , Reply# 51   4/6/2017 at 12:25 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Why won't Miele list the CFM at the end of the hose?
Mieles and Sebos are way overpriced in the US.
I've seen a Miele C3 with the 228 PN for £350 here and I've just purchased a Sebo E4 Premium with ET1 PN for £220. About $270. You are being well and truly ripped off!


Post# 370152 , Reply# 52   4/6/2017 at 12:26 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
E3 Premium*

Post# 370154 , Reply# 53   4/6/2017 at 12:47 (250 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
They Won't Because That Would Make Life Too Easy

wyaple's profile picture
For the buying public. Imagine being able to comparison shop merely by looking at the hose or nozzle CFM.

You might see a $70 Hoover Tempo with 106 at the hose and 80 at the nozzle and a $700-$1200 Miele, Riccar, Sebo, etc. with the same specs and only the Hoover would sell! Jobs would be lost, heads would explode, the world would come to end as we know it. And suddenly manufacturers would be forced to justify ridiculous over priced machines.

Bill


Post# 370155 , Reply# 54   4/6/2017 at 12:56 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Good point or be forced into improving the airflow ☺
Those figures could be wrong though it does seem like quite a big loss.

Is there no one on here with a Baird meter who owns a Miele or knows someone with a Miele?


Post# 370158 , Reply# 55   4/6/2017 at 13:34 (250 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Marcus,

 

A $50 Baird meter measures airflow on a 0 - 10 scale. It does not measure CFM.

 

To measure CFM you need a Digital Anemomter which is a very expensive instrument.

 

There are many vacuum enthusiasts that own a Baird meter, but only a very few that own a Digital Anemomter and fortunately Bill owns one but unfortunately he does not own a Miele C3.

 

  


Post# 370159 , Reply# 56   4/6/2017 at 13:40 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
I thought Bill corresponded the Baird meter with CFM so a score of 10 would have a certain amount of airflow?

Anyway even if it doesn't I'd still like to see what the Miele scores.


Post# 370163 , Reply# 57   4/6/2017 at 14:43 (250 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Stan,

wyaple's profile picture
Of course the Baird meter measures airflow, it just assigns it to a simple set of numbers. You need the "key" to unlock what an "8" means. Here's the key.

Bill


Post# 370164 , Reply# 58   4/6/2017 at 14:46 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Stan

Post# 370169 , Reply# 59   4/6/2017 at 17:55 (250 days old) by Mixman (Central NJ)        

Well, if anyone has a cheap Baird meter they want to sell me, I now have a C3 an Avalir and U1. Oh, and a Moxie too.

Marcus - Now you get what I was saying in my thread about UK prices vs US prices. In the case of Miele they tend to be about twice what you pay. In the case of Sebo anywhere from 3-4 times what you pay in the UK.


Post# 370170 , Reply# 60   4/6/2017 at 17:57 (250 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
Miele C3

The shop i work at is a miele dealer! I took these readings off a Miele C3 cat and dog. We placed the vacuum on the ground, held the hose as straight as we could, took the ratings, and this is what we got.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 370175 , Reply# 61   4/6/2017 at 19:10 (250 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
EXCELLENT WORK DEVIN!

wyaple's profile picture
A 7.5 is just about dead on 101 CFM from a straight hose. For your wand measurement, I'm assuming that you have the wands extended about three feet. A 6.5 is an equivalent to 95 CFM.

Based on typical airflow losses from wand connections and the power nozzle u-joint, a C3 may do around 85-90 CFM at the nozzle when placed on an airflow box.

Now, you wouldn't by chance have a suction gauge you could place on the end of that hose?

Thanks a bunch!

Bill


Post# 370176 , Reply# 62   4/6/2017 at 19:12 (250 days old) by Blackheart (North Dakota)        
We do.

I'll get a suction reading Saturday I'm taking tommorow off.

Post# 370192 , Reply# 63   4/7/2017 at 00:06 (250 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
Thank you for that Devin. :)

It's about what I was expecting. 101 CFM at end of the hose is still good for a bypass motor.Plus Miele 9 layer bags do not lose any noticeable airflow as it fills and Mieles filtration is fantastic.


Post# 370211 , Reply# 64   4/7/2017 at 11:54 (249 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

Bill,

 

where did you het the key for the Baird meter? Did you create it with your digital anemometer?

 

Just curious.

 

~Stan

 

 


Post# 370215 , Reply# 65   4/7/2017 at 12:45 (249 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Stan,

wyaple's profile picture
Yes, and here's how the testing procedure went.

Example:

1) obtain a vacuum source that creates, say an "8" on the Baird meter.
2) remove said Baird meter and attach my GM8901 digital anemometer and take reading.
3) repeat the above two steps at least three times to obtain reliable, repeatable results for all possible Baird readings (zero to 10).

These tests MUST be done very carefully, paying special attention to the airflow source (i.e. the hose end, that it does not move). The GM8901 can give a useful resolution to about 0.25 CFM.

Thanks for asking,

Bill


Post# 370230 , Reply# 66   4/7/2017 at 14:48 (249 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY)        

I wonder if someone on here will make a bag attachment for the Riccar Volt? Like, a pistol grip handle with a bag on it? Definitely would be interesting.
Sebo4me...
I doubt the Shark will ever match or beat Kirby. The Shark is crap. This post would be much longer if I went into everything I hate about it.


Post# 370237 , Reply# 67   4/7/2017 at 15:36 (249 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

sebo4me's profile picture
It won't match the Kirby but it's still very good value for money. Certainly not crap. I own the Powered lift away. I've found it to do a very good job. I also love the powered lift away feature allowing the the user to get under furniture etc.

Sharks customer service in the UK is excellent. I can see why it's become the USA's biggest selling vac 😁


Post# 370238 , Reply# 68   4/7/2017 at 15:37 (249 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

sptyks's profile picture

RE: Reply #65.

 

Thanks Bill for taking the time to do all those measurements and for taking the time to explain the process.

 

~Stan

 

 


Post# 370258 , Reply# 69   4/7/2017 at 21:51 (249 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
price of Miele and Sebo

Sounds like there is definitely a price difference between what the Miele and Sebos cost in Europe compared to the United States. I wonder if it's because of import costs, or perhaps they don't sell as many models that use 120 volts so they need to charge more for them. On the other hand, the Numatic Henry is quite a bit cheaper and those are made in the U.K. I can't help but wonder how much those vacuums are taxed when they are imported, and if that's what causes the price to increase so much. Miele and Sebo definitely make good products, but they do cost a premium here.
Mike


Post# 370262 , Reply# 70   4/7/2017 at 23:40 (249 days old) by wyaple (Pickerington, OH)        
Stan,

wyaple's profile picture
Anytime! Love to share methodologies...

Bill





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