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Thread Number: 32982
/ Tag: Recent Vacuum Cleaners from past 20 years
Direct Air vs Bypass Air confusion |
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| Post# 360618 , Reply# 1 10/9/2016 at 19:22 (2,748 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
The primary objective of a bag-first configuration in an upright vacuum cleaner is to protect the fan and motor from damage by dirt and debris passing by the fan blades. Fan-first uprights require all dirt and debris, including stones, sand, paper clips, pins and other hard objects to pass through the fan before being blown into the bag. By putting the bag first in the pathway of the dirt, and having the airflow sucked into the bag (instead of being blown into the bag) the fan is protected from damage.
As a secondary benefit, an onboard hose can be used to provide suction to the brush roll cavity as well as for above the floor cleaning. You can have good filtration in a fan-first vacuum and in a bag-first upright vacuum. Neither configuration guarantees better filtration of the exhaust air. Some say the classic, fan first upright vacuum configuration exhausts cleaner air because most dirt falls away from the path of the air flow, whereas in a bag-first upright, as in most canister cleaners, the air is always fighting its way through, over and around the collected dirt in the bag. | ||
| Post# 360649 , Reply# 3 10/10/2016 at 15:17 (2,747 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
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I think you'll find as many opinions about "what's the best vacuum?" as there are posters here at Vacuumland. Everyone has a favourite brand or certain set of criteria that determines their answer to "what's the best vacuum?"
Though many at Vacuumland disagree with the methodology and results of Consumer Reports tests, I personally have found them to be quite helpful. I always take into consideration their "brand reliability" survey results along with their test results. My current "best vacuum" advice to others is actually a pair of vacuums - one upright to clean carpets and one canister to clean everything else. My upright of choice is the lightweight Hoover Platinum Bagged upright (rated "excellent" for carpet cleaning by CR). My canister of choice is the quiet, versatile Miele C3 Alize (rated "excellent" for airflow through the hose and for noise suppression by CR.) These 2 are a dynamic duo that gets the job done easily and effortlessly. And the combination cost me under $1000. | ||
| Post# 360650 , Reply# 4 10/10/2016 at 15:25 (2,747 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
 Anontemp123,
If you want your new carpet to be as clean as it possibly can be, then you should get a Direct Air machine. Direct Air vacuums such as Kirby, Royal and Riccar Tandem have the most airflow and best agitation of any Bypass air vacuum.
It's a known fact that Airflow and Agitation is what cleans carpet. These Direct Air machines have more airflow and clean better because the fan is located only 3 inches from the carpet. In a Bypass machine the fan is placed after the bag and the air must travel through 3 to 5 feet of hose and internal piping with numerous twists and bends before reaching the bag. This reduces airflow by more than half as measured with my Baird Airflow meter.
It is true that with a Direct Air vacuum all the dirt and whatever other objects you pickup such as small stones, sand, paper clips, screws and coins must pass through the fan on the way to the bag. This is not the problem that it once used to be when fans used to be made of metal which is actually quite brittle. Foreign objects hitting a fan spinning at 18,000 RPM would most likely break one or more blades of a metal fan. The newer Kirby and other Direct Air vacuums have fans made out of Amodel which is similar to Kevlar but 300% stronger than Kevlar, so they are now pretty much Bullet Proof. Royal still uses a metal fan but it is designed with very curved fins which pass most objects through the fancase with little problem.
Other things to consider is that most Direct Air vacuums can be configured to be used as a powerful (leaf) blower. Bypass Vacuums do not have this option. Another fact which may clear up some confusion is that most all vacuums (Direct and Bypass) now have as an option top use the new cloth type HEPA bags which filter the air exiting the vacuum so well that it is cleaner than the air you are breathing in. In other words it is filtering the air around you.
I hope this video helps you to better understand the differences between Direct and Bypass Air vacuums:
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| Post# 360662 , Reply# 5 10/10/2016 at 21:09 (2,747 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Anontemp123,
The two best Direct Air vacuums are Kirby and Royal. You saw the all metal Royal in action in the video I posted in Reply #4 above. I am posting the Kirby Sentria user's guide so you can not only see the Kirby system in action, but also see all the things the Kirby system can do. The performance is equal to or better than the Royal.
New Kirby's cost anywhere from $1500 to $2995 but you can get a fully reconditioned - like new Kirby system with all the attachments including carpet shampoo system for a fraction of that cost on ebay. Typically $300 to $500.
I own several Kirby's and I can truly say it is the best vacuum I have ever used.
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| Post# 360809 , Reply# 7 10/12/2016 at 22:11 (2,745 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
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Hi anontemp,
I don't think you can focus on one element of a vacuum cleaner to guarantee good results. Good cleaning performance is a result of the right combination of mutiple features. There are excellent upright vacuums with wooden brush rolls, and poorer performers with steel brush rolls. This is why I like Consumer Reports tests - each vacuum in the test group undergoes identical testing and the results are compared. It's the final result that counts. In deep carpet cleaning, the tests measure how much material is removed from identical carpets by each vacuum. Each stretch of carpet is "dirtied" in the same controlled manner before the vacs are tested on them. Beater bars are also not a guarantor of better deep carpet cleaning. The vibration and agitation provided by a bristle-only agitator can do as good a job of disengaging dirt from a carpet pile. The only thing to watch out for are overly soft bristles as these may not provide sufficient vibration. But again, the "proof is in the pudding" so to speak. Setting the height of an upright on it's lowest setting will not always guarantee a better cleaning of the carpet. The nozzle needs to be able to "breathe" to prevent "suction lock" and allow airflow to carry away the dirt. As long as the brush roll is somehow making contact with the top of the nap, that is all the vibration you are going to need to dislodge the dirt. You will remove more embedded dirt by going over the same area a few times with the nozzle height set just right, than going over once with the nozzle set at its lowest setting. For delicate carpets, I would recommend a weaker cleaning mechanism - best use an airdriven turbo nozzle with a canister cleaner. These will provide a gentler sweeping action than a motor-driven brush roll. | ||
| Post# 360839 , Reply# 8 10/13/2016 at 13:14 (2,744 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Hello Anontemp123. You have many good questions.
Let's start with the brushroll. Brushrolls no longer have beater bars on them, but that is not a problem because the newer brushes are now stiffer and beat the carpet just as well as beater bars. The second store owner is wrong! Hoover used beater bars in their vacuums for decades without causing any damage to carpets. But beater bars did have a problem with damage to wooden flooring.
The new stiffer brushrolls have plenty of vibration but pose no danger to 99% of today's carpets. Wooden brushrolls are best and are used on the most expensive vacuums. Wood is best because it allows for a magnet to be imbedded into the brushroll. The magnet is used to activate the BPI (brushroll performance indicator) light which is present in the newer Kirby's and Royals. Metal is Ok but doesn't allow for a magnet. They also have a tendency to rust if used on a damp carpet or stored in a damp area. Stay away from plastic brushrolls which may not be well balanced and have inferior bearings.
If you should purchase a Kirby or Royal vacuum, you will not need to worry about setting the correct nozzle - brushroll height as it is a foolproof process no matter what type of carpet you have. When set properly, Kirby's and Royals are designed to do a deep clean every time without doing any damage to the carpet. It is a fact that no vacuum cleans any better than a newer (less than 10 years old) Kirby or Royal. Here's how the height is properly set:
Kirby: With the motor running, lower the nozzle one click at a time with the Toe-Touch control, until you hear a change in the motor sound when the brushes first contact the carpet, then lower one more click which will form a seal between the nozzle and carpet. You are now at the proper height. The BPI light should be on steady green. If BPI starts to flicker or goes out, you have gone too low and/or the belt needs to be replaced. On the Kirby, the very lowest setting is for use with the Carpet Shampoo system.
Royal: With motor running, turn the Height Adjustment knob clockwise. When the Adjust-O-Rite button on the front of the nozzle sucks in, you are at the correct height. The BPI light works the same way as the Kirby BPI.
I have tried to answer all of your questions but if you have more, then ask away. I check in here every morning. I am wondering if you have had a chance to watch the two videos I posted earlier, especially the first one which does a great job of explaining the difference between Agitation Airflow and suction.
~Stan | ||
| Post# 360840 , Reply# 9 10/13/2016 at 13:42 (2,744 days old) by hooverkid (PA,USA) | ||
Let me see...
So let me see if i can answer all your questions in one go, for a vacuum to work well on carpet you need 3 things, airflow (the amount of air the machine moves), agitation(the vibrating and grooming the brushroll does on the carpet) and suction (the amount of force the air is pulled through the machine).I along with many others agree that airflow is the most important element of a vacuum,the direct air or fan first style of vacuum uses a fan placed a few inches from the cleaning nozzle and as a whole will produce more airflow than a bypass or bag first machine, agitation is the second most important element to how well a vacuum will clean carpet and you get the best agitation when you have a combination of good airflow to pull the carpet up to the nozzle,a good brushroll which typically the best brush rolls are made of wood or metal Examplesof thesetype of brushrolls include metal beater bar brushes like what is found in traditional direct air vacuums like a sanitaire, a metal brushroll with brush stiffener like in riccar and simplicity tandem air vacuums or a wooden brushroll like royal or kirby bell nozzle direct air vacuums use and the third element in agitation is height adjustment that puts the nozzle at a balance between good airflow and good brush contact to the carpet if the nozzle is too low the vacuum won't have good airflow and if it is too high the brush won"t give the best agitation. Suction is less important in direct air vacuums but in clean air vacuums the suction pulls the dirt from the tube to the bag. Hope this helps!
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Post# 360844 , Reply# 12 10/13/2016 at 14:43 (2,744 days old) by vacuumlad1650  (Wauponsee, IL) |
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Post# 360847 , Reply# 13 10/13/2016 at 14:53 (2,744 days old) by vacuumlad1650 (Wauponsee, IL) |
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"Fabulous Dustpan"
Chapter 11 The day they moved the wheels back Pages 107 and 108 Andy | ||
| Post# 360879 , Reply# 15 10/13/2016 at 20:47 (2,744 days old) by hooverkid (PA,USA) | ||
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On a bypass machine all the suction is going to the nozzle through a 1 1/4" hose normally placed on the side of the cleaner this makes the vacuum not pick up well in the side opposite the intake hose and because the hose is small the hose also reduces the amount of air. Think of it like this if you have a lot of dirt in a work bench and your using a shop vac you'll pick up more dirt in one pass if you use a tool with a wide opening, on a direct air vacuum there is a wide opening to the fan that helps to move more air.
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| Post# 360882 , Reply# 16 10/13/2016 at 21:32 (2,744 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
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Hi anontemp,
The Miele Delphi is a fine cleaner, though it rates only average for carpet cleaning. If you are getting it for very little money, why not? You can always upgrade, improve and enhance the cleaner gradually by buying easily available genuine Miele attachments and filters. I'm not a big fan of power nozzle canisters because I find the electrified hose, handle and wands too heavy and bulky and prone to electrical problems like cutting out. But you can always buy a regular non-electrified hose and wand and bare floor brush and attachments to make this your primary cleaner for everything but carpets. For carpets, I much prefer a basic, classic lightweight upright as a companion to the canister. Even a cheap grey Eureka DialaNap Boss will do the trick! | ||
| Post# 360885 , Reply# 17 10/13/2016 at 21:51 (2,744 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
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On the other hand, why bother with a used C1 Delphi missing most of its attachments when you can get a brand new "suction-only" Miele Olympus for $330? It's the identical vac without the power nozzle configuration for deep carpet cleaning. The suction only carpet nozzle is fine for removing surface litter from carpets. I still prefer the more deluxe Alize over the Olympus.
See below for a nice summary of the Olympus: CLICK HERE TO GO TO eurekaprince's LINK | ||
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Post# 360889 , Reply# 18 10/13/2016 at 22:42 (2,744 days old) by vacuumlad1650 (Wauponsee, IL) |
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| Post# 360891 , Reply# 19 10/14/2016 at 00:44 (2,744 days old) by myles_v (Fredericksburg, VA) | ||
GR! I typed a very long response that was erased by my phone when I tried to post.
To sum up what I originally tried to post... I'd agree with Eurekaprince on his recommendation. Basic Miele canister, and I would go with a Kirby, Royal, or Aerus Electrolux as an upright. If you have dense carpeting then I'd probably go with the Kirby since it has tech drive, but if you have a lot of stairs you'd be carrying it up and down then I'd go with a Royal since they're a bit lighter. My personal favorites are the Aerus Electrolux uprights, even though they aren't amazing deep carpet cleaners. They may not be the best for dense carpet, though, ecause they do not have a height adjustment. I'd love to see how much you would've gotten out of your old carpets with a Royal with brush stiffeners, since you'd been using a Dyson DC-14. | ||
| Post# 360961 , Reply# 20 10/15/2016 at 13:27 (2,742 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Here's another fact:
Direct Air vacuums lift the carpet much better than Bypass Air vacuums because of the increased amount of airflow. The combination of having the fan so close to the carpet and the larger diameter of the air channel provides a vast improvement in airflow.
It's a fact that as the air path increases in length, the suction and airflow decrease. This can be proven when using a Kirby in Hose mode. The Kirby ships with a 6 foot hose, but there are 12 foot aftermarket hoses available. When you connect a Baird Airflow meter to the end of a 6 foot hose the meter will register a 7.5 - 8.0 on the scale. When you attach the Baird at the end of a 12 ft. hose the meter reads about a 5.0. Therefore, the longer the airpath, the lower the suction and airflow. Remember the airpath distance from carpet to fan on a Kirby or Royal is 3 inches. The distance from carpet to fan on most Bypass machines is 4 to 6 feet with several bends in between.
The diameter of the airpath is also a huge factor in determining the amount of airflow through that airpath.
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| Post# 360976 , Reply# 21 10/15/2016 at 20:02 (2,742 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
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Fan-first uprights also don't need 12amp screaming motors. A 5amp motor on my wonderful Hoover Platinum "Oreck clone" is sufficient to provide excellent deep carpet cleaning. The WindTunnel segregated suction channels help make good use of the airflow provided and prevent scattering of dirt kicked up by the brush. It's not very noisy either! :-)
I think the no-frills classic fan-first Eureka Boss also uses a 5amp motor, maybe 6amps. Works great though! Less electricity drawn = a little less on your monthly electrical bill, too! Truth be told, I've never picked up anything so dangerous that it broke the fan blades on any fan-first upright I ever used. Even the cheap 1983 Eureka Dial-a-Nap with the plastic fan blades survived after 20 years of use! :-) | ||
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Post# 361037 , Reply# 22 10/17/2016 at 02:47 (2,741 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA) |
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What kind of carpet did you install??
There is a new kind of carpet on the market that is very very soft in texture. Due to the softness of that texture, it has caused MANY vacuums on the market to basically suck down like glue to them and not work very well. The carpet is called Frieze.
Due to this trend many manufacturers have worked to come out with a new "venting" technology to reduce strain of the cleaning head on a carpet to allow more airflow into the unit inside the cleaning head. I have attached a youtube video produced by Panasonic that explains it quite well while introducing their new power nozzle for the situation. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Durango159's LINK | ||
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Post# 361038 , Reply# 23 10/17/2016 at 04:14 (2,741 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA) |
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Here's my explanation for a lot of your questions. ***I am sorry that this got so long. I have put some headings to split it up a little!
Filtration
Brush roll, agitator, some Eureka models called it a Disturbulator. Some people call it a beater bar!!-- That's where it gets confusing. The brush roll should not be referred to a beater bar, though it can contain beater bars. Beater bars were plastic or metal bars put on the vacuums brush roll to increase the agitation. The point of a brush roll is to not only use bristles to sweep up pet hair and lint and groom a surface but also to create an Earthquake type of effect on the carpet to vibrate dirt from the bottom of the pile to the top where the bristles and air flow work in unison to carry the dirt away. However, beater bars have been replaced by a 2nd row of bristles in over 95% of the markets machines. With good bristle design and layout, outstanding agitation is achieved. Generally a chevron design is highly recommended to guide the dirt towards the air duct.
Some brands like Oreck market that their brush roll is good on hard flooring. But do you really want to risk a high speed powered brush roll on your delicate floors??? Do you want to see similar brush roll grooming marks on your hard flooring that you'd see on carpet??? I hope you answered NO!! The best tool for cleaning bare floors is a horsehair bristle equipped bare floor brush which is attached to the suction wand of a hose on a vacuum. Miele and Riccar or Simplicity have the best designed ones for this as well. A good bare floor tool can elongate how much time you need to go between wet cleaning of your hard floors. Kitchens and bathrooms are a different story, but other rooms such as dining room, living room, bedrooms, the use a good bare floor tool will make your life much easier and will not damage your flooring during the cleaning process!! I would try to avoid any bare floor brush that has wheels on it!!
AirFlow/ Suction/ Carpet Height As far as carpet height, a Kirby explanation is the best. Set your vacuum to the highest setting it has. Turn the vacuum on and push it. Gradually lower the vacuums cleaning head one setting at a time until the tone of the machine changes and you start seeing grooming marks. Go one setting lower than that and you should be good for height setting.
The suction seals the rug to the vacuum by pulling the carpet up to the vacuum. This action isn't highly noticeable until reaching the edge of an area rug, door mat etc, but trust and believe a good vacuum is doing it the entire time it cleans. The exception is on some carpets that are glued down. But suction doesn't remove the dirt. This is where air flow comes in. If the seal to a surface is too strong then air can not enter and therefore the dirt won't go away. The suction pulls in air and the air carries the dirt with it as it travels through the vacuum system. You may notice upon viewing the bottom plate that surrounds the brush roll area of a vacuum cleaner that it generally is not the same flatness all around. Usually along the front and side are some grooves. These grooves allow air to come into the path. The grooves also help to reduce a snow plow effect and can help the machine better gobble up chunky items, such as Cheerios.
Manufacturer Tacony is a U.S vacuum manufacturer producing vacuum cleaners under the brands of Riccar, Simplicity, Fuller Brush, Maytag, Carpet-Pro, the Aerus Lite and other vacuums. One of their Maytag uprights is shown in the Youtube video below and you can see how good agitation using a brush roll with only bristles effectively cleans and has no plastic beater bars!! In terms of vacuum cleaners Tacony products are fantastic and highly rated!! You won't go wrong with a Riccar, Simplicity, Fuller Brush or Maytag vacuum.
Kirbys clean well. But brand new they are around $1700. They are heavy, can be awkward, the only way to shut off the brush is to turn off the unit or remove the brush roll assembly altogether. Attachments are in a separate caddy that would have to be carried separate and it's not the quickest process to exchange. I used to do in home product demonstrations for both Rainbow and Filter Queen cleaning systems. I came across MANY Kirby owners. Sadly only a small handful of those owners liked the units. The rest felt that they were highly pressured into buying a very expensive unit that was too heavy and a lot of effort to use. They had purchased a Kenmore, Hoover, Riccar, or Bissell as an easier to use vacuum and rarely used their Kirby.
Dysons represent the best design for how a bagless system works. In general on most of their units the cyclonic action works well at separately the dirt from the air and filter life lasting longer. Suction and airflow through the hose are generally very good. However Dysons have not been tested well at providing good agitation and they typically don't have a good outlet of getting sufficient airflow to the carpet cleaning head for a thorough clean. Additionally some of their brush roll designs have had bristle tufts that felt like pieces of concrete. Some carpet manufacturers, such as Mohawk actually void your warranty if a Dyson is used due to agitator damage and insufficient cleaning.
No matter your budget Tacony has a product line for you!! Fuller Brush is on the budget friendly end but a great cleaner. For power nozzle canisters the Simplicity Verve or new Wonder and Prima lines are fantastic!!! Miele is also highly rated and Aerus is a great brand.
Central Vacuum Thought Also have you thought about a central vacuum??? That might be of interest to you!! Numerous options are available and the air is exhausted outside. There are Hide-A-Hose systems that store the hose in the wall. Wally Flex systems for a hand held hose great at cleaning up in the garage or laundry area, Vroom hose system that can store underneath your kitchen sink to clean up your kitchen floor, power nozzle kits. Central vacuums have come a long way with various additions. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Durango159's LINK | ||
| Post# 361040 , Reply# 24 10/17/2016 at 05:35 (2,741 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
Wow, Rob, that's a hell of an explation. Very well written!
Personal preference aside, I have to agree with the others - direct air/dirty fan cleaners are better for the majority of carpets. That's not to say other designs don't also work well, but they do give the best results. The problem with direct air is that the hose suction is often not particularly strong (Kirby aside). The design relies heavily on airflow rather than suction, but the drawback to that is usually weaker hose suction. Because the dirt is passing directly through the fan, the fan has to be solid and pretty basic. Bypass/Clean fan design will give greater hose suction as the fan design can be far more complicated and, in some cases, have multiple fans to generate more suction. Bypass usually does have better filtration, although there have been huge advances in filtration of direct air machines over the last few years. Bypass motors make for better cylinder/canister cleaners for above floor/hard floor cleaning, whereas direct air is better for medium-deep pile carpet. | ||
| Post# 361057 , Reply# 25 10/17/2016 at 13:52 (2,740 days old) by suckolux (Yuba City, CA) | ||
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| Post# 361060 , Reply# 27 10/17/2016 at 14:31 (2,740 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Kirby Brushroll Yes the Kirby brushroll is easy to turn off.
First, turn off the motor if it is running, then just turn the Belt Lifter counter-clockwise until the Red arrows line up. The Kirby is now ready to use as a straight suction cleaner on hard floors or delicate rugs.
To turn the brushroll back on, make sure motor is stopped, then turn the belt lifter all the way clockwise until the Green arrows line up.
That's how easy it is.
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Post# 361063 , Reply# 28 10/17/2016 at 16:27 (2,740 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA) |
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OK, so here's some revisions/ additions Thank you all for the comments and helping me to better to state the point I made. Yes you guys are correct, you can twist the lever and release the belt from the motor pulley on the Kirby easier than it would be to flip over a Hoover Decade machine, remove the bottom plate and take the belt off that pulley to then use as straight suction.--- I don't know if anyone would go to all of that work on a Hoover or Sanitaire style unit?? Even for attaching a hose and tools onto brush roll cavity of a Convertible I think many left the belt intact???--- Opinions and commentary appreciated on this!!!!
I guess what I meant by not turning off the Kirby brush is that you can't just push a switch at your fingertips or a foot pedal while the vacuum is currently running. You have to shut down the machine, wait for armature to fully stop rotating, bend down, rotate the lever, etc. While that's not hard, it's not as convenient or as fast as a brush roll on/off switch at finger tips.
I think if I had a Kirby and I was going to shut the brush roll off like that, I would end up just removing the entire floor head, installing the hose, wands and their multi-surface floor nozzle. Kirby's come with a multitude of accessories!!! Basically enough to fill an entire small closet. The handheld sander does a pretty good job too and it really sucks the dust away.
Likewise with the belts on a Direct Air/ fan first system there is no belt protection system. Anything incoming to the machine may get tangled around the brush roll or hit the fan. Kirby fans and Royal fans are very durable. There are many cases where these machines have sucked up screws and pennies and luckily the fan is still intact. I think the Kirby fan lasts longer as depending on the object a Royal fan may be dented. However if a large screw was sucked into a Sanitaire direct air vacuum or Hoover Elite, as an example-- that fan would in most cases be shattered. A large object jamming a brush roll in many direct air units may melt a belt and leave a little mess to clean up on both the motor pulley and brush roll.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both style of units. One has to outweight the pros and cons based on what is important for his/ her cleaning needs.
The one constant that I have found to be true amongst nearly all vacuum collectors, enthusiasts, and shop owners is that we all despise bagless machines!!! Bagged, water filtration, such as the Rainbow or Filter Queen with their genuine cones are the way to go. But bagless filtered or cyclonic systems have numerous downfalls and lose power tremendously quicker while requiring significantly more indepth and more frequent maintenance!!!!
Bagged seems to be most preferable now and many manufacturers have a system that seals the bag upon removing so there is essentially no potential of a dust cloud escape.
Sebo/ Windsor/ Aerus machines seem to do the best as far as indication of when the bag is completely full and shutting down the machine to let the user know that. The bags at that point are generally packed similar to a brick!!
Direct Air machines can pack a bag like a brick but you have to check the bag and make sure it doesn't go above the fill line. I have never seen a direct air machine come equipped with any sort of bag full indicator. Though if the unit has an out cloth bag then you can basically judge by the bulge of the bag overtime!!! ^^^^Please correct me if someone knows of a direct air unit that has a bag full indicator!
I guess another point of mention is that generally a direct unit is more energy efficient!! Many of them come in the range of 6 - 8 Amps of electric usage. The larger fan, located just a few inches from the brush roll, with a significantly wider opening and being center mounted allows for a greater volume of incoming air and the fan blades are deeper than that found on a bypass system.
Many bypass systems are 10-12 amps of use. The majority of Bissells, Eurekas, Hoovers, Kenmores, Sharks and all that low priced stuff has consumers thinking that more electricity used equals more power so they all have 12 Amp motors. It's extremely sad how they try to dupe and misinform the public!!! Electric usage has nothing to do with the power. It's all about fan size, how many fans, brush roll design, distance air has to travel and how many sharp turns or 90 degree angles there are in the unit for the air to pass through. | ||
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Post# 361066 , Reply# 29 10/17/2016 at 17:00 (2,740 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA) |
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EurekaPrince Did you use a Kenmore Progressive canister and that's where you experienced electrical issues???
Kenmore Intuition and Kenmore Progressives are one of the only power nozzle canister vacuums I've heard of to experience electrical issues. It happens with the wands at the quick disconnect points. They weren't designed snug enough in the beginning and then consumers abuse the machines by disconnecting the wands while power is still running. This over time tends to create a short and any plastic in the area weakens over time.
Circuit boards are another one. The Hoover Windtunnel Anniversary S3670 was plagued by circuit board issues causing loss of power to the power nozzle and also I've seen Electrolux units-- the newer style Eureka made Electrolux units with the circuit boards have issues. Maybe over course of my new IT career when I complete my studies, I can work to improve this!
I have never had an electrical issue with any of my Hoovers, Eurekas, Simplicity or any other canister vac I've used or tried over the years. I am 34 years old and have been cleaning houses as a side gig since I was 12. I also sold Rainbow and Filter Queen. Currently I have 11 power nozzle canisters in the house. They are my goto machine for thorough house cleaning any cleaning job I do!! The versatility for cleaning all surfaces quickly and easily, getting under beds, under night tables, carpet or hard floor stairs, removing cobwebs from the ceiling just can't be beat.
I think every household should own a decent power nozzle canister vacuum cleaner!
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| Post# 361092 , Reply# 30 10/18/2016 at 10:14 (2,739 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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| Post# 361094 , Reply# 31 10/18/2016 at 10:55 (2,739 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest) | ||
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Usually a direct air, soft bag vacuum doesn't need a bag full indicator. You can pretty much eyeball, or give it a squeeze and tell it's full. You can also tell when you notice a decrease in performance.
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| Post# 361105 , Reply# 33 10/18/2016 at 16:41 (2,739 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Well N0oxy, that's a matter of opinion. I happen to find an Upright much easier to just grab and start cleaning my carpets with out setting up a canister by connecting the hose etc. I also find it a pain in the butt to drag a canister around behind me always worrying if I might trip on it if I back up.
But here's the most important negative about canisters and that is deep cleaning ability. A power nozzle is just not heavy enough to do a good deep cleaning job. You need the weight of an upright vacuum to really get down and form a proper seal with the carpet.
Now straight suction canisters are great to have around for above the floor cleaning.
I personally like a small simple inexpensive canister like the Eureka Mighty Mite as a companion to my Kirby Sentria for all my above the floor cleaning. | ||
| Post# 361125 , Reply# 35 10/18/2016 at 23:09 (2,739 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah) | ||
I agree with everything of what sptyks said. I really hate canisters, I take a central vacuum anyday over a canister that can be easier, lighter, and maybe wouldn't trip over as much than compare to a canister. If I want a vacuum that can do a better job on carpets and something that can also easily do above floor cleaning, I would go with a "Metal bypass upright" like a Riccar, Simplicity, Cirrus, Evolution, etc. They have a inlet port on the back to use an extension hose on and use it like you are using a central vacuum.
This picture is not mine.
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Post# 361132 , Reply# 37 10/19/2016 at 00:32 (2,739 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA) |
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NoOxy-- I disagree about the weight of a power nozzle vs. an upright.
Yes weight is important but more important than that is carpet height setting. Many power nozzle canisters have height settings. The majority of uprights have height settings. With a height set properly the weight of a cleaning head isn't near as much of a debate in the issue. Not all power heads and uprights are created equal. Orecks, Eureka Bravo, Hoover Air series, Sharks, Dyson, many uprights on the market over time are very lightweight heads. Power head wise: Miele SEB217, current Filter Queen Majestic, Riccar Snap/ mid size power head and many others are compact, low weight power nozzles with no height settings. They each do OK at cleaning but nothing substantial. A substantial power nozzle would be an Aerus, Hoover Quadraflex, Hoover Windtunnel, Simplicity Verve- full size, Beam Rugmaster, Kenmore Progressive, etc. Those are good cleaning power heads!! Otherwise as you describe it, a Kirby head may have weight but if height adjuster is set wrong then the weight means nothing at all. Also Kirbys and other uprights are quite rear heavy compared to the front of the housing. As long as a power nozzle on a canister is set properly to the carpet with suction set properly and it's a decent nozzle with good balance and manueverability such as this Simplicity Verve power nozzle then a good seal to the rug is easily acheived!! The suction of the vacuum pulls the carpet to the vacuum head creating a good seal while the airflow and agitation go to work at removing the dirt. As far as tripping while using a canister. I've tripped with chairs and small book racks that I have moved out of the way to do my vacuuming but I have not tripped on a suction unit. I reverse my way out of a room and guide the canister back with my foot. Maybe I've just gotten quite used to it. I would just much rather manuever a power nozzle that can get under chairs, coffee tables, night tables, and beds. A main reason I like canisters is that the wand is 1.25" thick respectively. I'm manuevering a very thin wand around a room which is lighter to use and easier to steer and see around without rubbing into things compared to a 15" thick upright body squeezing between various furnishings!! I don't want a vacuum bag compartment rubbing against my bed blankets or possible scraping along window sills while cleaning!! | ||
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Post# 361151 , Reply# 39 10/19/2016 at 10:04 (2,738 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States) |
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weight of power nozzles Actually, I think it was sptyks's post that you are disagreeing with rather than mine. Like you, I'm a big fan of canisters like we talked about at the convention a few months ago. It was interesting hearing the tones of the different Hoover canisters at the museum. | ||
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Post# 361166 , Reply# 41 10/19/2016 at 15:31 (2,738 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States) |
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weight of cleaning head While uprights might be heavier, this also makes them harder to move I think. If a powernozzle's brush is at the right height, it should be able to clean as good as an upright. It's interesting that the volt cleans so well since it does not have a height adjustment setting. | ||
| Post# 361211 , Reply# 42 10/20/2016 at 13:11 (2,737 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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It all boils down to Airflow! The Bypass design of the canister does not supply enough airflow to pull the carpet up to the nozzle to form a complete seal to the carpet. And it is true that direct air uprights require a little more effort to push because of this, but that is why Kirby developed Tech Drive which reduces the effort to push the vacuum by 90%. The kirby G series vacuums can be pushed and pulled with only two fingers with Tech Drive engaged. | ||
| Post# 361971 , Reply# 50 11/4/2016 at 13:33 (2,722 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Suction vs Airflow and Filtration Harley and Mike, you gave excellent definitions and descriptions of Suction vs Airflow in the previous posts.
I have another description of these two forces. First off, always remember that as one increases, the other decreases. However as stated earlier, you do need both to clean a carpet.
I own several Kirby's which are Direct Air or Dirty air machines. The Kirby has a huge amount of Airflow at 127 -130 CFM (cubic feet per minute) but low suction measured at 32 inches of water. This is because the opening to the fan chamber is a full 2 inches in diameter allowing all that air to move very quickly through the machine.
I also own a Hoover WindTunnel Air vacuum which is a bypass air bagless vacuum. In contrast to the Kirby, the Hoover has lots of suction but much less airflow because the diameter of the hose and internal piping is a narrow 1 1/4 inches. The Hoover has only 60 CFM airflow but the suction measures at 80 inches of water.
So therefore assuming the size of the motor and type of fan is the same, it is mainly the diameter of the opening which the air passes through that determines the amount of suction and airflow.
Now lets talk about how the length of the hose or internal piping affects suction and airflow. So the LONGER the hose, the less suction and airflow you will have. This is why Central vacuums typically located in a basement or garage have very powerful 240 volt motors. These huge motors are needed to overcome the loss of suction and airflow caused by the very long internal piping that is located inside the walls of a home. These pipes can be 50 to 150 feet long depending on the size of the house.
As far as filtration goes, the difference between Direct Air and Bypass Air vacuums is insignificant. Both can have synthetic cloth HEPA bags which filter the air down to particles of less than a Micron which is excellent. The fact that Direct Air vacuums use a separate fan to cool the motor does not really affect their ability to filter well. The exhaust air coming from the cooling fan contains only a few microns of carbon coming from the motor's carbon brushes. As far as I know no one is allergic to carbon because our bodies are made up largely of carbon.
The Kirby is a Direct Air machine which has the Gold Seal of Approval from CRI (Carpet and Rug Institute.) To get a Gold Seal, CRI measures these two things: the amount of dirt removed from several different types of carpet and the quality of air exiting the machine (filtration). If you are not familiar with CRI here is a link so you can check any make and model vacuum. The first link is CRI testing standards. The second link is a list of certified vacuum cleaners and their ranking.
www.carpet-rug.org/vacuums.html...
www.carpet-rug.org/certified-vacu...
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| Post# 361978 , Reply# 52 11/4/2016 at 14:16 (2,722 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Mike81, 108 CFM is excellent for a canister vacuum. The Kirby Avalir has close to 130 CFM and the Royal 8300 has close to 150 CFM but those are both Direct Air upright vacuums.
You can still use the canister with 2100 watt motor in Finland correct? This canister would be illegal in the US. Our maximum wattage for vacuums is 1440 watts or 12 amps.
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| Post# 362024 , Reply# 58 11/5/2016 at 12:20 (2,721 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Kirby and Royal airflow N0oxy, The Kirby and Royal bags have only one opening near the top of the bag. The large volume of airflow is because the bags are quite large so there is a lot of surface area for the air to pass through. The full line is only halfway up the bag so the top half of the bag remains empty so that dirt does not block the pores in that part of the bag. The outer bag on the Kirby and Royal also allows air to pass through and acts as a secondary filter. This is quite different than canister vacuums and some other upright vacuums where the bag is totally enclosed inside a solid enclosure further restricting airflow. | ||
| Post# 362032 , Reply# 59 11/5/2016 at 16:28 (2,721 days old) by Mike81 () | ||
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One thing that is a fact: More bends or twists vacuum has more airflow is lost. Bagless vacuums (especially multi cyclonic) has that problem. Bagged vacuums has much more straight airbath and airflow. Thise videos will show that: | ||
| Post# 362157 , Reply# 63 11/8/2016 at 12:58 (2,718 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Anontemp123, I don't understand why you are still confused about suction and airflow. Have you watched all of the videos and carefully read the written responses to your questions? I don't know where you could look for additional info on this subject that would give you more detail than the descriptions given here.
I doubt you will find a better description of suction vs airflow anywhere than from the experts here at Vacuumland. Many of the guys that have given descriptions and advice on this particular thread have been working with various types of vacuum cleaners for many years. Some own or have owned their own vacuum cleaner shops. Everyone has a particular brand or type of vacuum cleaner that they are fond of, but one thing they all have in common is their vast knowledge of how a vacuum cleaner works and the principles of suction vs airflow and agitation. | ||
| Post# 362207 , Reply# 65 11/9/2016 at 13:08 (2,717 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Definition of Suction per Wikipedia :
Suction is the flow of a fluid into a partial vacuum or region of low pressure. The pressure gradient between this region and the ambient pressure will propel matter toward the low pressure area. Suction is popularly thought of as an attractive effect, which is incorrect since vacuums do not innately attract matter. Dust is "sucked" into a vacuum cleaner when it is pushed in by the higher pressure air on the outside of the cleaner. The higher pressure of the surrounding fluid can push matter into a vacuum but a vacuum cannot attract matter. | ||
| Post# 362211 , Reply# 67 11/9/2016 at 16:24 (2,717 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest) | ||
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Unfiltered cooling air. If you are running in an extremely dirty condition, or in the case where using powdered carpet freshener, it could shorten the motor's longevity. There are, however, Kirbys of vintage age that are still running with their original innards. | ||
| Post# 362213 , Reply# 68 11/9/2016 at 16:44 (2,717 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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The Kirby's cooling fan emits a minute amount of microscopic carbon particles from the motor's carbon brushes, I mean we're talking a couple of parts per million (PPM ) a second. This is an insignificant amount of particulate matter so it would be a waste of money to put a filter here. No one is allergic to carbon. Because our bodies are mostly made up of carbon.
Bypass air vacuums use a filter for air exiting the motor because they use the high volume of air exiting the bag to cool the motor so there is a great deal more carbon in this airstream. Direct air vacuums use a separate small fan to cool the motor so there is much less volume here and a filter in this location would block air needed to cool the motor.
If you pause this video at 1:10 you should see the small motor cooling fan located directly behind the main suction fan. It doesn't show here but these two fans are completely sealed off from each other.
If you watch the first 35 seconds of this video, you will see how the cooling fan is separated from the main fan:
This post was last edited 11/09/2016 at 17:23 | ||
| Post# 362271 , Reply# 70 11/11/2016 at 12:35 (2,715 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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You passed! Congratulations Anontemp you passed the test. You now have all the knowledge you need to make an educated decision on what type of vacuum would best suit your needs.
Regarding the topic of cooling fan exhaust on Direct air vacuums: The small cooling fan does not produce enough airflow or positive pressure to force the air through a filter. So if you put a filter on, there would not be enough airflow to cool the motor properly therefore the motor would soon overheat and burn out. | ||
| Post# 362272 , Reply# 71 11/11/2016 at 13:01 (2,715 days old) by eurekaprince (Montreal, Canada) | ||
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I still say that fan-first uprights with top fill dust bags filter air better. The dirt falls away from the path of the air and so is left undisturbed. With bag-first uprights and canisters, air is constantly fighting its way through the pile of dirt in the bag and even the best filtering canisters give off a dusty smell for a few seconds after the machine is turned on because the sudden rush of air into the bag kicks up the entire pack of dirt in the bag.
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| Post# 362274 , Reply# 72 11/11/2016 at 13:31 (2,715 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine) | ||
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Brian, I agree with you 100%. Most people don't stop to think about how the air passes through the bag.
Kirby and Royal Direct air vacuums leave the top half of the bag empty so the air exits up there rather than being drawn down through all the dirt in the bottom of the bag as it does in most Bypass air machines. | ||
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Post# 362277 , Reply# 73 11/11/2016 at 13:57 (2,715 days old) by vacuumlad1650 (Wauponsee, IL) |
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