Thread Number: 31152
/ Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
Torn between Sebo D4 and Simplicity Moxie |
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Post# 344318 , Reply# 1   2/16/2016 at 21:27 (2,988 days old) by Ctvacman (CT)   |   | |
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You can get the sebo with a wider head called et-2 a good dealer would have mentioned that |
Post# 344344 , Reply# 2   2/17/2016 at 05:54 (2,988 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)   |   | |
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Is the Moxie a full size Simplicity? only the full size ones are made in the USA. |
Post# 344349 , Reply# 3   2/17/2016 at 07:03 (2,988 days old) by peaches ()   |   | |
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Yes full size Moxie made in USA. I am aware of the ET-2 but he did not have it on the showroom to try out. Anybody know the width of the Simplicity PN head? Thanks everyone. |
Post# 344366 , Reply# 5   2/17/2016 at 09:57 (2,987 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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Definitely consider the cost to own each machine. The Simplicity has replaceable brush strips, so in the future you don't need to buy the entire brush bar when the bristles wear down. The cost of bags and hepa filters is definitely worth comparing as well. Serpentine belts have no 'cogs' to break or wear out. Cogged belts are long lived, but not lifetime, belts.
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Post# 344374 , Reply# 7   2/17/2016 at 10:34 (2,987 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 344376 , Reply# 8   2/17/2016 at 10:38 (2,987 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)   |   | |
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The Simplicity Wonder, and Riccar Prima are good machines, but keep in mind they are both "Made in China". |
Post# 344389 , Reply# 9   2/17/2016 at 11:21 (2,987 days old) by hooverkid (PA,USA)   |   | |
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I think that the simplicity would be the better machine only because with the types of carpet you said you had I know that the simplicity powerhead will clean your carpet better than a sebo. also as mentioned above there is nothing to brake as far as the simplicity belt goes but the sebo belt may need replaced in a few years if the jam sensor is activated along the road. I have owned and use both simplicity and sebo vacuums and have always liked Simplicity a little better.
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Post# 344472 , Reply# 14   2/17/2016 at 20:35 (2,987 days old) by vacguy77 (Eureka, MO)   |   | |
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Peaches, Mistake.. Sebo bags are actually less expensive than Simplicity bags. Sebo bags are 8 per package for $21.99 Simplicity bags are 6 per package for $21.99 Derreck |
Post# 344474 , Reply# 15   2/17/2016 at 20:39 (2,987 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 344480 , Reply# 16   2/17/2016 at 21:44 (2,987 days old) by kirbylux77 (London, Ontario, Canada)   |   | |
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If I was in your position, I would choose the Simplicity Moxie over the Sebo D4.
Let me address one issue first that Dysonman1 addressed above, Cog belts vs Serpentine "v belt" belts. He is wrong on this issue. Back 20 years ago, Tom would be right....a Aerus Electrolux cog belt on their powerheads & Kenmore Powermate cog belts on their Powermate canister powerheads would last about 10 years under normal usage in a home. That's assuming the average household is gonna pick up a sock or small piece of clothing or towel once in a while, trip the breaker & reset & go back to their vacuuming routine. Today's powerheads that use cog belts, however, is a different story. On the Dust Care PB11 powerhead (generic Eureka Express / Sweep & Groom central vac knockoff), Wessell Werk powerheads & Lindhaus powerheads, those cog belts will EASILY last the lifetime of the powerhead. If you really think Tom is correct, think of this....SEBO offers a lifetime warranty on the cog belt in their uprights....why would they offer that warranty if they KNEW it was going to break & cost them for the part & pay the dealer's labor to install a new one? Because they know it isn't going to break! The on-board computer & circuit breaker see to that, & also the construction of cog belts has improved greatly in 20 years. The only real "advantage" a Serpentine "V Belt" system offers is it's slightly less noisy....reality is, with normal care, both are excellent choices & are better than a flat belt. Keep in mind one little thing about Tom Gasko / Dysonman1....he works for Tacony Corporation, & he runs the Vacuum Museum for them. He is obviously going to recommend you to buy a Simplicity, as it's in his best interests to do so, which means he is going to say what he feels promotes his product & makes it better (in his mind) over your other choices. Does that mean you shouldn't trust his opinion? No. Just take it with a grain of salt & consider what motivations ANY of us may have in making one recommendation over another. Same with Brian, Funeraldirector - he is a former Aerus salesman, so we know why he would recommend the Guarian Platinum to you. As for the cost of bags, filters & cost of ownership, the Simplicity is ultimately going to cost you less than the SEBO. The SEBO D4 presently has no aftermarket bags or filters available for it, whereas the Simplicity's Type H bags & HEPA exhaust filters are available in either genuine or EnviroCare generic versions. However, bear in mind one thing....The Simplicity has the Red Carpet Service Plan, which states genuine parts must be used or the warranty is void. Since that warranty is 5 years, keep in mind the first 5 years you won't be able to use generic supplies. Ask your Simplicity dealer - he may not care if you use the EnviroCare bags & HEPA filters if you are buying them from him in the first place. FYI: EnviroCare is the company that manufactures all of Tacony Corporation's bags & filters....put a genuine Simplicity Type H bag beside a EnviroCare Type H bag & there is literally no difference in quality. Same with the HEPA Filter. You mentioned that the SEBO powerhead has a plastic height adjustment knob & felt it would be less breakable than a lever. You would be wrong with that assumption. The Simplicity powerhead's height adjustment lever is METAL, as is the handle release lever. The SEBO's handle release lever is plastic. So Simplicity wins on that point. As for whether SEBO or Simplicity filters better? Simplicity hands down! No contest there. One thing I am NOT a fan of on the SEBO D4 is how the bag attaches to the bag holder in the bag compartment - it's just 2 notches on the body that mates with 2 hooks on the bag collar. Rather flimsy if you ask me. You might also be interested to know that one major vac shop in Southern Ontario, that sells on the Internet to all of Canada, McHardy Vacuum, ranks the Riccar/Simplicity canisters higher for filtration than SEBO. In fact, they say the SEBO is so far down versus the Simplicity/Riccar canisters they consider only the Kenmore/Panasonic canisters worse for filtration! That's saying a LOT, in my mind. Also, bear this in mind....If SEBO is REALLY so convinced their "S Class" filtration that is the equivalent of HEPA filtration is SO good, then why do they offer both S Class service kits as well as a HEPA Filter service kit for the SEBO Airbelt C3.1 canister? This was the predecessor to the D4, btw. They do the same thing for the uprights, except the Felix, there are both S Class & HEPA Filter service kits available. To my mind, that's showing they have their doubts about their filtration system, if they were REALLY that confident there would be no need to have a optional kit. Therefore, with asthma & allergy sufferers in your household, the Simplicity Moxie is obviously the superior choice. Now, be warned, the Simplicity Moxie does have some durability issues. As Ctvacman pointed out above, the Simplicity Moxie & Simplicity Gusto have issues with the handle controls on the hose. Back in 1994, when the Electrolux Renaissance was introduced, it used the same type of membrane vinyl push-button controls on the hose handle, & it DID cause them major problems & a lot of grief, which is why when the Electrolux Guardian was introduced they changed to toggles on the hose handle. Also note that if the hose on the Simplicity does break down, the entire hose must be replaced - the hose handle itself is not available as a separate part. You will need to be careful with the hose while vacuuming. The powerhead on the Simplicity is also another sore spot. Tom is correct that the brushroll brush strips can be replaced on the metal brushroll, BUT what he failed to mention is that those metal brushrolls have bearing & endcap issues & often require replacement after a few years of ownership. It also has a tendency to take out the powerhead base, belt & belt guard cover as well, the friction buildup inside will cause the plastic to warp & melt around the belt guards built into the powerhead base, as well as the belt guard cover above it. Let me make this clear - if you buy a Riccar or Simplicity canister, YOU MUST BE VIGILANT TO TAKE THE POWERHEAD COVER OFF ON A REGULAR BASIS & CUT AWAY ANY STRINGS OR HAIR FROM THE BRUSHROLL & GIVE IT A GOOD GENERAL CLEANING!!! Preferably at least once a month, if you expect your powerhead to last a long time. With regards to the vacuum's filtration, you will have to be careful & pay close attention to the Simplicity Type H bags, both when installing & checking them for dirt buildup. One problem area Simplicity has is, when not carefully inserted & installed, there is a weak spot in the middle of the cardboard bag collar which can cause the collar to "collapse" & "crunch in" a little bit when care isn't taken installing the bag & closing the bag compartment door. This causes the bag collar to not make a optimal seal with the bag intake tube mounted on the bag compartment door, which means some dust will bypass the bag. Since the bag is the first stage of filtration in any bagged canister vacuum, it would be a good idea to keep a eye on it. One other thing I am going to bring up, since Kirbysthebest pointed this out, & this is important, is this: The Simplicity Moxie uses Chinese components. Your dealer may not have pointed this out, but the Simplicity Moxie, Simplicity Gusto, Riccar Immaculate & Riccar Impeccable were originally designed by Daewoo Corporation & manufactured for Tacony Corporation in Korea. You are, in essence, buying Korean design & technology, if you buy the Simplicity Moxie. Tacony Corporation, to their credit, did bring the manufacturing of these canisters to St. James, Missouri, a couple of years ago, BUT while the body is formed & painted in America & final assembly takes place in America, all the components in the canister are produced for them by KingClean in China, which is the company that manufactures the rest of their canister vacuums for Tacony. Some people wouldn't be bothered by this, yet some would prefer European technology, manufacturing & design. Only you can make that choice if it is right for you & your home. Since you say allergies & asthma are issues with people in your household, I would strongly suggest you also look at the Simplicity Wonder & Riccar Prima. If it were me, I would prefer these machines to the Simplicity Moxie you are looking at. The reason is this....remember how I pointed out to keep an eye on the bag collar? Well, if you talk to any vac shop that sells both Miele & Riccar or Simplicity, you will find in most cases they prefer to sell Riccar/Simplicity for uprights & Miele for canisters. Why? 1. The issues with the powerhead, which I pointed out, which for you are irrelevant because you're going to take care of your vacuum :-). 2. They also feel the overall quality of the Riccar/Simplicity canisters is lower than Miele - What that really boils down to is a preference to Made in Germany vs. Made in China, it's up to you to believe their bias, or not. 3. Because of the bag collar crunching issue on the Riccar/Simplicity canisters, most vac shops feel that Miele has a better filtration system & does a better job of filtering the air. However, what is nice about the Simplicity Wonder & Riccar Prima is they are new designs, & filtration is one issue that has been resolved. The bag collars on the Wonder & Prima are made of PLASTIC, not cardboard, so it cannot crunch in & it will make constant contact with the bag intake tube on the bag door. The new bag design also has a better bag closure system when you go to dispose of the bag from the vacuum. Forget about the fact the Wonder & Prima are manufactured in China - remember, if you choose the Moxie, you are still buying Chinese components anyways. One nice thing about Tacony Corporation is they had some problems with manufacturing defects in their previous lineup of canisters KingClean made for them, but they have since learned from those mistakes with the Wonder & Prima designs, & one thing they do which REALLY gives me confidence in them is they open up EVERY SINGLE VACUUM imported from China & inspect it before they allow it to be sold to the distributor who in turn sells it to your dealer. Tacony is NOT going to let a inferior product leave their facility. You might also appreciate that, besides the improvement to the bag collar, they have also improved the wand design on the Wonder & Prima & instead of using 4 castors they use 2 skateboard-style wheels in back & 2 castors in front for improved maneuverability. Also, the canister itself has all the same features, just the controls aren't on the hose handle, & a more compact, easy to handle size. If you are willing to consider it, btw, I would also suggest you re-consider looking at the Miele C3 canisters, since you say there are allergy & asthma sufferers in your home. Let me make one thing clear - The ONLY other vacuum out on the market today that will filter better than a Miele C3 canister is the Aerus Guardian Platinum. PERIOD! The Riccar/Simplicity canisters would be 3rd place & SEBO 4th place for filtration efficiency. Also note, if the price is an issue for the Aerus Guardian Platinum but you would consider buying if you can find a lower price, I do know a dealer in Brampton, Ontario that sells the Guardian Platinum for $1,500 Canadian dollars - just under $1,100 US dollars. And bear this in mind - the Aerus Guardian Platinum has a 15 year motor warranty, which covers the ENTIRE CANISTER...the motor, circuit boards, cord winder, etc. So to me, it's worth it to get 3x the warranty coverage of SEBO & Riccar/Simplicity. If you want the dealer's contact name & number, send me a email at the email address in my profile. Rob |
Post# 344490 , Reply# 18   2/18/2016 at 04:25 (2,987 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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D4 is a beautiful machines. The other one I am not familiar with but it looks very nice.
Reference where they are made, that is quite important to me. I have said before, I would buy a British, German, American or Japanese made product over a Chinese made one every time. Wanting to support a local economy is a patriotic and good thing to do and if more people had this attitude, we wouldn't be in the financial mess we are in now. Building things we buy every day is the right thing to do, not importing it from the other side of the world. |
Post# 344491 , Reply# 19   2/18/2016 at 04:41 (2,987 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)   |   | |
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I agree, but I would bet toppins to feed the birds with that Tacony imports parts from China to make those high end Riccar and Simplicity machines. They are hefty, and substantially heavier than a Miele C3. The carper power nozzle even has a metal base plate. |
Post# 344492 , Reply# 20   2/18/2016 at 04:42 (2,987 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)   |   | |
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I've read a few reviews of hose handle electronic switches failing. |
Post# 344504 , Reply# 21   2/18/2016 at 06:19 (2,987 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 344583 , Reply# 24   2/18/2016 at 21:07 (2,986 days old) by Kirbysthebest (Midwest)   |   | |
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The best vacuum is the one you like and will use.
Wish you well with your purchase, like I said before you wouldn't go wrong with either of your candidates. |
Post# 344642 , Reply# 26   2/19/2016 at 16:20 (2,985 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Glad you got a vacuum, Peaches.
What a lot of old hoof regarding SEBO filtration - do you actually own a SEBO, Kirbylux? It really annoys me all to hell when members on here promote other companies rather than their own experience. If you do, swing the D canister by the hose around a room and see how durable the lid stays on. I can tell you that the design will not allow the lid to fly open/unlock unless the lock button is pressed. Also stand on the D series body. It can withstand a lot of weight! As for filtration, oh my you are so ignorant! S-Class came along before HEPA - even Miele used it before they cheapened their filters to HEPA standard. S-Class was also a hospital grade filtration system used in U.S hospitals, not just Europe. As for SEBO filtration, the ONLY reason SEBO offer S-Class and HEPA optional filters is because that's exactly what the U.S and other countries tend to buy and want. The K, C series and X series feature both because they are OLDER models. You can't buy a HEPA filter for a Sebo Felix, D series or even the new E series vacuum. Here in the UK, buyers aren't so gullible on the HEPA dream. Most sales for Miele filters from John Lewis stores tend to be the Active Air Clean filter than the HEPA. And they are both marketed towards those with allergies. |
Post# 344720 , Reply# 27   2/20/2016 at 11:37 (2,984 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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Glad to hear you got the Simplicity. I've never been a fan of Sebo (upright or canister), the brush just doesn't dig deep enough into the rug for my tastes. The full bag indicator light is reliable on the Simplicity - you can wait until it comes on to change the HEPA cloth bag. And to have that built-in seal to keep you away from the dust - heavenly. There are several really nice options for the Moxie, which are shown on the Simplicity website. The 'change filter' light on the hose is set at 25 hours of running. You may or may not actually have to change it at that point. There are many determining factors. Again, Congratulations on a very good, very powerful machine that's easy to service with very reasonably priced repair parts (all of which are always in stock at the Simplicity factory in St. James, Missouri). On behalf of the 150 employees who work at Tacony Manufacturing, thank you for helping to keep American jobs going.
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Post# 344733 , Reply# 28   2/20/2016 at 13:35 (2,984 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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"Thank you for keeping American jobs going.."
But aren't these vacuums actually made in China and then passed to America for spec and tooling changes? Hardly made in the U.S in my opinion. Respectively even if Tacony outsell their stock, it isn't going to make them successful as a major brand who only sell in the U.S |
Post# 344735 , Reply# 29   2/20/2016 at 14:03 (2,984 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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No. Since your in the UK, and trying to give advice to an AMERICAN on what to buy for their AMERICAN home, you don't have your story straight.
Tacony doesn't sell their vacuums in Europe, so you guys have no idea. I've had lots of experience with Sebo, was a dealer for them for over 10 years, had problems with many of them. Europeans don't have experience with Simplicity or Riccar vacuums. I think Seamus is the one of the few people in England to have a Simplicity Brilliance upright. Simplicity Moxie canisters are made in the USA. We injection mold all the plastic right here at the factory. The motors are made by Ametek North America. The power nozzles are made here in AMERICA. |
Post# 344738 , Reply# 30   2/20/2016 at 14:23 (2,984 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 344915 , Reply# 31   2/22/2016 at 13:01 (2,982 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)   |   | |
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Congrats on the great machine. I would have absolutely recommended the Moxie over the D4 as I had a grueling experience years ago cleaning a customers house who had just spent $900 on the Sebo D4 with ET-1 head. The Sebos power at max is equal to the Simplicity's power above the Medium but below the Medium High setting!! Boost that Simplicity to High and you're off. I found you don't always need the High but it's there when you do!! Medium and Medium High power on the Simplicity will do quite well for your everyday cleaning needs in my experience of owning a very similar Riccar 1700 canister. The Riccar power nozzle has more height adjustment options, and on rugs where the Sebo head would struggle and turn itself off, the Riccar was still powering away and accomplishing the task!
Swivel your wand to the side, lay it flat to the floor and you should have no issue cleaning under a bed and furniture. I did all the time. When I used the Sebo I found that power nozzle rose off the floor when the handle was all the way down. Also there was wire by the hose handle that liked to come unplugged constantly. I found numerous nuisances in the design of that machine. |
Post# 344917 , Reply# 32   2/22/2016 at 13:09 (2,982 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 344946 , Reply# 33   2/22/2016 at 16:04 (2,982 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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But after reading many threads of users experiences with Sebo vs Tacony made vacuums It appears that the German Sebo ingenuity and quality is just not up to the standards of the good old American built Simplicity and Riccar vacuums which exceed that of the Sebo D4 in many areas.
Sebo is lacking in power and suction, and and has a powered floor nozzle (ET-1) that just does not cut it when compared to the Simplicity powered floor head. The ET-1 has fewer carpet height options and lacks the power needed to prevent bogging down in plush carpet. It also seems to have a problem lying flat when vacuuming under beds and low furniture. |
Post# 345055 , Reply# 34   2/23/2016 at 04:19 (2,982 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Spartacus watch this. Govacuums can choose almost any vacuum they want but they choose Sebo so they can't be that bad.
And the ET-1 floorhead goes flat as a pancake I own one so you are talking nonsense. :-) CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo4me's LINK |
Post# 345056 , Reply# 35   2/23/2016 at 04:50 (2,982 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 345063 , Reply# 36   2/23/2016 at 05:28 (2,982 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 345069 , Reply# 37   2/23/2016 at 06:28 (2,982 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)   |   | |
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I use the Sebo ET1 powernozzle either on my D4(came with it) or with my MD central vacuum.Works well on both! |
Post# 345072 , Reply# 38   2/23/2016 at 06:33 (2,982 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 345113 , Reply# 39   2/23/2016 at 12:32 (2,981 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 345163 , Reply# 41   2/23/2016 at 20:55 (2,981 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)   |   | |
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I've seen Riccar significantly less at the dealer compared to the MSRP online. Riccar and Tacony don't seem to want to be caught up in the hype of online sales. Sebos can be found at QVC and they've been sold at WalMart.com over the past few years.
Riccar/ Simplicity are dealer exclusively sold products. Several steps above the perception that Walmart.com has to offer!! There are numerous options the consumer can choose to get the right tools and bags included. Many dealers offer promos too for a vacuum trade in. I think of it as car shopping. When was the last time you bought a car at the MSRP??? That's what the online Riccar price is: Manufacturer SUGGESTED Retail Price, Suggested is the key word. Very few purchase Dockers khakis at the MSRP of $58. Usually one can find them on sale for around $30 at Kohls or elsewhere! CLICK HERE TO GO TO Durango159's LINK |
Post# 345218 , Reply# 44   2/24/2016 at 10:22 (2,980 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 345220 , Reply# 45   2/24/2016 at 10:41 (2,980 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 345437 , Reply# 50   2/25/2016 at 23:26 (2,979 days old) by Durango159 (State College, PA)   |   | |
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The current model mini power head available from Riccar and Simplicity does not require a separate wand. the extender is built in, it has a swivel and is also direct connect. Simplicity also has a turbo tool available.
Your telescoping wand will help with cleaning high up places. Also a nice thing about the Simplicity is that despite the special wand lock to lock into wands that are Riccar and Simplicity made, the hose size is universal. So you can use friction fit slide on tools from Kenmore canisters, Eureka canisters, central vacuum systems and many others in addition to the wide variety that is available direct from Tacony. That opens you up to a wide variety of styles of various upholstery nozzles if you don't want to fork over the bucks just yet for the electric mini powered head. The suction power options on the machine will not let you down ever for any task! Glad you're enjoying the machine! As far as D2D sales, when I worked for Filter Queen and Rainbow just a few years ago, the distributors urged us to go through the maintenance with the machine at the customers home. It's crucial in buying a high end machine like that, the customer is aware how to maintain the unit so that it maintains its power continuously and runs the same way years later as it did on day 1 during the demo. We want to maintain a good rapport with customer so they come to us for scents, filter cones, accessories as well as possible future customer referrals and in general be pleases with their purchase. On Filter Queen I was trained to show the customer how to install new cones, the differences of using the MediPur cone in conjunction with the standard cellulose cone or just the cellulose cone, the premotor filter, the scent pad in the exhaust cap, and how to properly install all attachments, store the cord and general ease of use. You would be surprised the amount of customers that called on the phone or came into the store to return their unit, complaining that the machine wasn't working as it did in the demo because the carpet wasn't clean---- The idiot that sold the customer the machine didn't show the customer the agitator on/off switch!!! Or sometimes not how to ensure hose was properly installed to machine. The boss was so pissed and constantly brought these things to mind in meetings!! Yes there are crappy salesman out there! On Rainbow I was trained to show customer how to care for the basin, remove, clean and install the separator, fill the basin, where the spare belt is on the power nozzle and show/ discuss the washable HEPA filter. Not doing these steps in a demo is definitely a far greater probability that a machine is returned, has a warranty issue or a customer continuously calls to complain. This is definitely a business where returns are very much disliked because the machine has be fully cleaned and evaluated for being resold and the salesman loses and has to return commission earned if it was already paid out! |
Post# 345445 , Reply# 51   2/26/2016 at 04:07 (2,979 days old) by vacerator (Macomb Michigan)   |   | |
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You also forgot the difference between the US dollar, and your British pound. There may also be a tariff. Miele marks up their machines here by at least 75% to boot on the exchange rate over the Euro. |