Thread Number: 30785  /  Tag: Brand New Vacuum Cleaners
New EU vacuums and half the suction
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Post# 340616   1/4/2016 at 10:19 (3,006 days old) by Mike81 ()        

I just read the 2015 Finnish consumer reports test about canister vacuum cleaners. One thing was very interesting. Measured suction (air watts) power results clearly shows how much the suction has dropped with the new low wattage models.
Quite dramatic drop in suction.

Some examples:

2015 models----------------motor & airwatts

Miele Classic C1 Ecoline-------800W 167W
Miele Complete C3 EcoLine---800W 214W
Electrolux UltraOne------------785W 207W

Older models

Electrolux UltraOne--------2200W 427W
Miele S8-----------------------2200W 379W


Post# 340618 , Reply# 1   1/4/2016 at 10:26 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Yes there will be a drop in suction. There will be members posting on here that that suction isn't everything and that you can make up for the loss of suction with tweaks but I am not convinced!


Post# 340619 , Reply# 2   1/4/2016 at 10:37 (3,006 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Exactly.
For example Electrolux UltraOne 427w > 207w. That's more than half the drop in suction.


Post# 340620 , Reply# 3   1/4/2016 at 10:45 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Post# 340621 , Reply# 4   1/4/2016 at 12:27 (3,006 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

In order to establish the cleaning performance, it is important to know how many air watts are needed to clean surfaces. This information I have never been able to find. Nowhere can I read that more suction means better cleaning - there has to be an optimum level to work to.

Post# 340624 , Reply# 5   1/4/2016 at 12:42 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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No clean air motor will produce as much airflow as the direct air Kirby produces at the cleaner head and now with the reduced wattage the gap will be even wider.

Post# 340629 , Reply# 6   1/4/2016 at 13:07 (3,006 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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But does it really matter? It doesn't matter to me because, well, the X uprights and indeed the Sebo vacuums I have BAR one K1 Pet model all have energy efficient motors anyway. Even my Vax VCU02 upright / Hoover Signature in the U.S also has a energy friendly motor.

For years buyers have been led to believe suction as its most strongest is better. Even Electrolux and Hoover back in the day constantly used higher power to sell on their flagship ranges. Hoover at least had one principle going for them by the time they had “invented” the domestic upright vacuum with the beater bar.

What most buyers don’t tend to realise is that they don't need to throw out their existing vacuum just because it may have a higher motor that is now classed as energy inefficient by EU law.

Not all vacuums perform the same way with these new EU law passed motors in my experience.

Air watts are a fad Benny - they not usually tested by the motor but at the hose end which can decrease over time due to the flow rate.


Post# 340635 , Reply# 7   1/4/2016 at 13:28 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Next year we will be down to 900w.
It matters to me because it feels like we are taking a step backwards.


Post# 340637 , Reply# 8   1/4/2016 at 13:37 (3,006 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Well these results are tested from the hose end.
Suction isn't everything I agree. Nozzle design is extremely important, but with this much drop they better design very good nozzles for these vacuums.
Most important figure is the airflow: liters per second or the cfm.

One Example: Philips PerformerPro
airflow
2200W 51 L/S
650 W 30 L/S


Post# 340642 , Reply# 9   1/4/2016 at 13:57 (3,006 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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And what happens when the bag starts to fill up?

Post# 340645 , Reply# 10   1/4/2016 at 14:36 (3,006 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Of course airflow will decrease, but in this case when the bag is almost full. Thanks to the high quality bags. (S-Bag Ultra Long Performance). Those bags are very well known for good filtaration and not loosing the suction.
Top of the line Electroluxes uses same bags.


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Post# 340647 , Reply# 11   1/4/2016 at 15:05 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I don't think Miele bags lose much airflow as it fills but even if they do usnt it better to start with more airflow in the first place?

Post# 340652 , Reply# 12   1/4/2016 at 15:28 (3,006 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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For how long and on what kind of debris? See, it is impossible. Just as it is impossible to rely on these air watts stats at the very least.

That X4 that you love so much - it has a far lower rate of power than a Hoover Purepower 2100 watt upright = and yet you'll know how well the bags fill and last for. It doesn't come down to having highest suction power.


Post# 340654 , Reply# 13   1/4/2016 at 15:39 (3,006 days old) by delaneymeegan (Mary Richards lived here)        

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I'm thinking this is going to be a case of less is MORE. Why?

1. Just having super suction doesn't mean you can clean better. What's important is getting a clean house, not a vacuum with more suction. If I can get my house clean with no vacuum at all, that's even better.

2. Higher wattage motors make more noise. Not desirable.

3. Stronger suction motors can damage the bags and the pores of the bag would become clogged easier and possibly explode.

4. Stronger motor moves more air. More EXHAUST air being pushed out the other end of the machine means more air turbulence in the room which can cause MORE dust in the room.

5. with stronger suction, dirt and debri flies through the hose faster and when it abruptly lands in the bag can enter at such a fast rate, it can damage the bag.

6. Motors that aren't spinning as fast do not wear down the carbon brushes as fast and the motors will last longer.



Some vacuums have such strong motors that the manufacturer has literally had to put holes in the body of the machine to allow air in to keep the motor from burning out. I'm referring here to a Kenmore canister from the early 1980s. I noticed there is literally a 3/8 hole hidden in the bottom corner, toward the front.

When you have a motor rated at 4 h.p., which is double power of motors from the 70s, but you have the same hose size, something has to give. But when it's running, you can hear the annoying sound or whistle of the air from that hole.

In the U.S., I watched in the 80s as the vacuum makers got into this pathetic h.p. competiion starting in about 1983. Each year the vacs increased about 2/10s of a horse power to the point where in the 90s they were at 5 h.p. It's not necessary.




Post# 340657 , Reply# 14   1/4/2016 at 15:54 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I have a 2200w Miele S8 and none of the above points apply :-)

Post# 340658 , Reply# 15   1/4/2016 at 16:04 (3,006 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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There are a few good points in what you’ve said, Delaney. However there are a few points I’d like to make.

Higher wattage motors don’t always make more noise - depends on if the brand has put in noise insulation in or actually produced a quieter motor in the first place.

Strong and weak suction can still destroy a paper bag. One of the reasons to why so many brands now offer the synthetic material fleece type bags - they are less likely to burst and being electrostatic means the airflow is maintained through the bag with dirt and dust held back.

Lots of brands have an air valve relief hole on the back of the upright OR a canister vac. It is there to stop the strain on the motor if the bag gets clogged, not necessarily having strong motors.


Post# 340661 , Reply# 16   1/4/2016 at 16:07 (3,006 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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The question is, how much suction does it actually take to clean the surface?

Let's not forget that we managed perfectly well with 250w Hoover Juniors and 550w Electrolux 500's & Twin Turbo's for years, all of which clean perfectly well.

When using both as straight suction, there is no noticeable cleaning performance between my 2200w Miele S5 and my 700w Electro Comfort. So that's 1500w of wasted power as the extra suction doesn't add any cleaning advantage.

Equally, my new 620w Henry cleans far better than my old 1200w Henry, largely due to the redesigned floortool.

We've also has numerous reports on here too of how well the new 700w Sebo Felix models perform.


Post# 340663 , Reply# 17   1/4/2016 at 16:12 (3,006 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

Turbo500, that's exactly what I asked in message #4

Post# 340670 , Reply# 18   1/4/2016 at 17:13 (3,006 days old) by Mike81 ()        

I don't have anything against the new lower wattage vacuums. In fact I do my daily vacuuming with my old Volta U258 made in 1988. It has 1000W twin fan motor and I think it has enough suction to my needs. For carpet vacuuming I use my Kärcher upright with 1030W motor. No complains at all.
But why on earth some new low wattage vacuums (with low suction) has so loud and high pitched sound? I mean that my old canisters have very pleasant and soft sound. Totally different than those screamers. Mostly cheap bagless models.
And here is the video of turbo brush spin speed comparison. I actually can't hear (or feel) the difference between the 330AW Electrolux UltraPerformer and old Volta U258.
This was when I was wondering how this is possible.





Post# 340671 , Reply# 19   1/4/2016 at 17:19 (3,006 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)        

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Well we have the wonderful EU to thank for this. As we know, unelected bureaucrats should indeed be telling us what watts the motors in our vacuums have!

Of course it isnt as black and white as that but the immediate impact is yes, suction has decreased overall. I am all for a better designed vacuum, better floorheads and an advancement in motor technology, i mean i dont know why manufacturers aren't getting on the brushless motor bandwagon. The washing machine industry is.



Post# 340672 , Reply# 20   1/4/2016 at 17:20 (3,006 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

Those old Volta cleaners (we had them as Electrolux here) were very well designed with good internal mouldings to keep the dust bag well away from the filter at the back. This allowed air to flow all around the bag. These cleaners in the UK were very powerful but then they cost a lot of money to buy and so they could afford to be well built. Having said that, the Philips cleaners of the same period were very cheap to buy but were equally as well designed to maximise suction power.

Post# 340674 , Reply# 21   1/4/2016 at 19:08 (3,006 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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I don’t see what the different is though Mike.

There have always been loud and cheap bagged AND bagless vacuums.

Take my Hoover TeliosPlus. It has a 2300 watt motor. It is very loud to use.
Compared to my previous Miele S5211 which had a 2200 watt motor - quiet to use and even on the highest setting it wasn’t as painful to my ears as the Hoover TeliosPlus and a model before the EU law came in.

Though motor sound in decibels are measured by the EU label, they are not given a particular statistic in order to pass what is acceptable and what isn’t - unlike the other tests for suction on hard floors and carpets.


Post# 340676 , Reply# 22   1/4/2016 at 19:16 (3,006 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

The noise of a cleaner all comes down to what the manufacturer wants to do. Historically, the cheapest cleaners in production were amongst the noisiest. Yes, there were some very quiet cheap vacuums and likewise some very noisy expensive cleaners, but broadly speaking the overall quality and attention to the build of the more pricey cleaners meant they were often quieter.

For many years the Goblin cleaners were noisy, none more so than their wet & dry machines, but even before that their traditional cylinder types were much noisier than the Electrolux alternatives. Their uprights were never too pleasing on the ears either.

For me, I could tolerate loud noises more than I could high pitched whistles, which can make me feel very sick indeed.


Post# 340677 , Reply# 23   1/4/2016 at 19:55 (3,006 days old) by floor-a-matic (somewhere)        

I think what U need there in Europe is a good old vintage American Electrolux like a Model G, 1205 or Super J; I bet they'll outclean anything made today

Do U have that kind of machines there, but under a different name?


Post# 340678 , Reply# 24   1/4/2016 at 20:00 (3,006 days old) by n0oxy (Saint Louis Missouri, United States)        
lower power motors

Kind of makes me wonder if they will pass similar laws here in the United States. The electrolux ultra one, at least the version that is sold here, is one of the quietest and strongest suction canister vacuums I have seen. The Riccar prima is right up there with it, and the Perfect Canister has just as much suction, though not as quiet. Many of the wet dry vacs that are sold here are quite loud, I have a shop vac 6 gallon, so it's not that big, but you can hardly hear yourself think when it's running. This whole thing about lower power motors kind of makes me wonder what kind of motor was used in vacuums such as the Electrolux 1205, I've never seen one of these but I bet they cleaned very well.

Post# 340679 , Reply# 25   1/4/2016 at 20:12 (3,006 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

The "problem" with the EU regulations on vacuum cleaners in the UK is that many people here do not like being in Europe and will fight any changes to the death, irrespective of whether or not it's a good idea.

In the case of vacuum cleaners, I think a reduction in power consumption can only be a good thing, especially when vacuum cleaners in years gone by were able to produce outstanding cleaning results from a much lower wattage motor than we've seen in recent times. Manufacturers only have to look at how it was done then, and in fact it seems they may well have done, now that Numatic Henry & other cleaners have a hose which is much wider at the cleaner end than it is at the wand end, as was the case with so many Electrolux cylinder cleaners years and years ago.

I do not agree with everything the EU wants, but I like to think I look at it in detail before I form an opinion. The scaremongering which went on in the UK press when the wattages of vacuum cleaners was capped was simply staggering.



Post# 340680 , Reply# 26   1/4/2016 at 20:18 (3,006 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Yes but respectively in the U.S Canisters come with a PN as standard usually. That's more noise to factor into the equation.

Noise factor hasn't always been such a great marketing trick that every brand show; only Miele are probably one of the more famous brands for making adverts featuring the noise of their motors. It has only been in recent times that other brands are showing off quiet vacuums.

A good old vintage Electrolux or similar might be welcomed in the UK and Europe, but it has to be cost effective.


Post# 340684 , Reply# 27   1/5/2016 at 00:50 (3,006 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Best new canisters what I have experienced are the Miele S8, Electrolux UltraOne and Philips PerformerPro. Those are also been most successful in the tests many times. Unfortunately SEBO is not sold here.
We actually have something that is quite close to the good old vintage American Electrolux. It's called Lux Intelligence and it's only being sold door to door salesman. Price is just insanely high (about 1500-2000€).
Here is also screenshot of the test I was talking about (best 3).


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Post# 340685 , Reply# 28   1/5/2016 at 01:12 (3,006 days old) by delaneymeegan (Mary Richards lived here)        

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Sebofan-
"Lots of brands have an air valve relief hole on the back of the upright OR a canister vac. It is there to stop the strain on the motor if the bag gets clogged, not necessarily having strong motors. "
That sounds like a good idea and, an option I've not seen in the U.S.



Turbofan-
"Let's not forget that we managed perfectly well with 250w Hoover Juniors and 550w Electrolux 500's & Twin Turbo's for years, all of which clean perfectly well."
Exactly !

and

"... redesigned floortool. " Very true. Theres two areas to a functional vacuum. One is the suction. The other is the tools used for grooming carpet and upholstery that lift the dirt to make it available for the suction to wisk into the machine.
Even a meager suction motor can do a good job with a well equipped PN or floor tool.




NoOxy-
".... what kind of motor was used in vacuums such as the Electrolux 1205"
It was most likely 8-9 amp.
When I bought my Ultralux Classic, the last of the metal canisters, in 1993, I asked the salesperson what the H.P. was. As I mentioned earlier, at that time most vacuums were being labeled with the H.P. The Salesperson said it had the equivalent of a 2.2 h.p. motor.
His response, when I naively said "That's kind of low, isn't it?" was, "It doesn't need any more than that" and, he was right. Though at the time, I didn't fully get it.

My Ultralux Classic has a 9 amp suction motor, and when you factor in the pn, it totals 11 amps, according to the label.






Post# 340687 , Reply# 29   1/5/2016 at 02:59 (3,006 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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The 1200w Henry had a very poor floorhead there was a lot of room for improvement there! Not so much room for improvement with the Miele or Sebo floorheads.
The Hoover Junior had a direct air motor which doesn't need as much power as a clean air motor cause it produces more airflow at the floorhead.

I will put my 2200w Miele S8 up against one of the 800w Eco models and we will see which one cleans better :)


Post# 340706 , Reply# 30   1/5/2016 at 11:04 (3,005 days old) by sensotronic (Englandshire)        

"I will put my 2200w Miele S8 up against one of the 800w Eco models and we will see which one cleans better :) "

That sounds like a good idea for a Youtube video. I have a 2200 watt S8 and an 800 watt C1 Classic I could compare, Now if I can find a bag of filth, some pet hair, a camcorder with tripod and a Youtube channel I'm all set.


Post# 340708 , Reply# 31   1/5/2016 at 11:19 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I will look out for it. I hope the 800w model will perform as well as the S8 but I'll be surprised if it does.

Post# 340709 , Reply# 32   1/5/2016 at 11:41 (3,005 days old) by sprockkets (Eau Claire WI)        

Man, you all had 2200w vacs in the UK? Thanks to having only 15 amp 120v circuits for the US, we are practically limited to around 10amps or so, around 1200w.

2200w is flat out ridiculous. No wonder they capped it at 900w. If those idiots never went above 1500w they probably wouldn't have cared.


Post# 340710 , Reply# 33   1/5/2016 at 11:45 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Yes but we have 240 volts over here. So 2200 w is just under 10 amps

Post# 340711 , Reply# 34   1/5/2016 at 11:59 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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2200w in UK is equivalent of 1100w in the US.
Voltage x Amps= Watts


Post# 340712 , Reply# 35   1/5/2016 at 12:03 (3,005 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)        

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Watts are watts no matter what the voltage is.

 

If volts X amps = watts, Then: 

A 1200 watt vacuum in the UK is equal in power to a 1200 watt vacuum in the U.S. It's the amperage that changes. A 1200 watt cleaner in the U.S. is rated at 10 amps at 120V but in the UK where voltage is 240V that same 1200 watt cleaner is rated at 5 amps.

 

GOT IT?


Post# 340713 , Reply# 36   1/5/2016 at 12:17 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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What I meant was 10 Amps in the US would be 1200 in the UK it would be 2400.
Because we have a higher voltage we tend to have higher wattage. But not anymore


Post# 340714 , Reply# 37   1/5/2016 at 12:17 (3,005 days old) by mike81 ()        

My honest opinion is that 1200w would be reasonable limit. 2200w is "a bit" overkill. You just create huge amount of heat. With 1200w over 300 aw is possible. 800w is a bit too low.

Post# 340715 , Reply# 38   1/5/2016 at 12:25 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Yes agree with that Mike. I would like to see the limit no lower than 1200w for an upright and 1600w for a cylinder which needs a bit more power because of the longer hose.

Post# 340717 , Reply# 39   1/5/2016 at 12:34 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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In the UK we can have a maximum of 3120 watts from an outlet in the US I think the maximum is 1800w.
But you are correct watts are watts :-)


Post# 340720 , Reply# 40   1/5/2016 at 13:17 (3,005 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Isnt there a little bit of hypocrisy going on here?
All of a sudden 2200 watt vacuums are really bad. You had your choice at the time of purchase going with 2000 watt vacuums, or 1600 watts or even lower than that. There's simply nothing wrong with these vacuums other than the fact that they have ALL been sold to the buyer on the belief that suction will be more powerful. Even U.S brands do the same on higher suction power claims - this isn't just a European thing.

The reality though is that as mentioned we've done well with vacuums with lower power since they were invented.



Post# 340723 , Reply# 41   1/5/2016 at 13:25 (3,005 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I don't care what the wattage is or if watts are watts or whatever if high watts or low watts, what I care about is having a clean home.

Post# 340746 , Reply# 42   1/5/2016 at 20:23 (3,005 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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You can still get a clean home regardless with a low suction vacuum. The SEBO C series for example had a 1500 watt motor and was perfectly acceptable. Even before SEBO, vintage vacs like Electrolux, Hoover and other major brands all offered 800 watts, some were even 500 watts. But that was back in the day without HEPA filters and other features.

Post# 340765 , Reply# 43   1/6/2016 at 03:00 (3,005 days old) by tolivac (Greenville,NC)        

Performance and power ratings of vacuums--Realtors selling homes---"Location,Location,LOCATION!"Vacuums----"Design,Design,DESIGN!"The design of the machine is what is really going to determine its performance-not so much the power of the motor.We see so many POORLY designed machines-no wonder why they need the high wattage motors.Now look at a properly designed machine-it can do the job with a SMALLER motor.Think those regulations were sort of trying to force vacuum cleaner makers to redesign their machines.On the other hand-at how most households use their vacuums-say not more than a couple hours a week-don't think the high wattage ones are really going to drain the system when used that often.In any home-a vacuum cleaner is not running continuously.

Post# 340771 , Reply# 44   1/6/2016 at 04:20 (3,004 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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I've got a vintage Hoover 417 cylinder with a 550w motor that cleans better than my neighbours modern high powered Vax pet thing. Why? Decent suction coupled with a well designed floortool.

Let's not forget that prior to the new legislation, the Sebo X1.1 was 1150w and the original X series was 800w. Both still cleaned equally as well as the 1300w X4 AND considerably better than a crappo 2000w Hoover Purepower. We also have had good reports about the 700w Felix from members on here and when I tried one in John Lewis, I found no noticeable difference in performance between that and the 1300w model.


Post# 340773 , Reply# 45   1/6/2016 at 04:59 (3,004 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I hope you're right. 2200w down 800w is a big jump. But I'll take your word for it Chris. Back in the day they didn't have HEPA filters, that will cause a resistance to airflow.
I will have to purchase an 800w Miele model and test it against my S8. It I get the same performance then great I will be a very happy boy :-)


Post# 340774 , Reply# 46   1/6/2016 at 05:03 (3,004 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Design matters surprisingly much. Nozzle, hose, straight as possible air path, seals, bag, filters...
I found this a bit hilarious video. There is modern 650w canister against the unknown very old canister. I just don't understand anything what she says.





Post# 340794 , Reply# 47   1/6/2016 at 13:04 (3,004 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Its not just the premiums that had low power though; one of the cheapest bagged cylinder vacs in the UK from Daewoo previously had a 1500 watt motor, the RC350BK model. The new one has an 800 watt motor.


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Post# 340795 , Reply# 48   1/6/2016 at 13:08 (3,004 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        
HEPA filters -they're not all the same.

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Previously before the age of HEPA, there was S-Class filters which Miele used and of which SEBO's present filtration processes come under. S-Class filters are interesting in the sense that they use microfiltration layers made of electrostatic material.

But even at that S-Class and HEPA are not always the same; I have noticed it on some of the bagless and bagged uprights I've owned. Some brands fit a secondary foam filter under the HEPA filter which then blocks off more suction because it doesn't allow as much air to vent from the motor; others dont suffer from extra layers and just use paper pleated cartridges to trap emissions. If the paper cartridge isn't sealed enough, emissions can escape but it is minute that owners won't notice unless they have an emissions style tester.

Yet, whilst HEPA filters may well help to absorb strong odour and emissions, not all HEPA filters cut off suction.


Post# 340822 , Reply# 49   1/6/2016 at 20:35 (3,004 days old) by suckolux (Yuba City, CA)        

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Well put I think

Post# 340842 , Reply# 50   1/7/2016 at 05:03 (3,003 days old) by Mike81 ()        

It's interesting to see how different manufacturers locate their filters. Some put Hepa filter before the motor. Basically a good idea when the post motor filter is just a standard microfilter to capture the carbon dust.
Then there is the case when they put too much unnecessary (in my mind) filters in their vacuums.
Here are one example. My parents Philips has 3-layer pre motor filter. Black foam filter in between the two microfilters. No sense at all. One microfilter should be enough. After the post Hepa filter is once again one black foam filter. I guess to reduce noise. In these pictures Hepa filter is pretty clean, but after years of use despite washing it (it is washable) it started to block the airflow. So it needed new Hepa filter.


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Post# 340854 , Reply# 51   1/7/2016 at 10:14 (3,003 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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From what I can remember Hoover Europe had a lot of nonsense filters with the Telios models. I owned a few of those and loved the vacuums - however when they brought out the Pure Filt paper dust bag it blocked the suction in 1700 watt models that were fitted with HEPA filter cartridges. Hoover did the wrong idea of fitting the HEPA cartridge over the motor in the bag chamber. This cut off suction and more so with the higher filter dust bag on board.

Usually I find the black foam filters were installed before microfilters were all the norm with the Hoover cylinders - they are cheap and easy to clean, particularly if you forget to empty the bag or if the bag has burst. It catches dust on the foam texture easily and can be brushed or washed off.

The problem I find with microfilters is that they can be difficult to wash because of their multilayers - the top surface gets clean but in the middle I can often see the dirt behind that can't be dislodged.


Post# 340971 , Reply# 52   1/9/2016 at 04:40 (3,001 days old) by Madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)        

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I've briefly used one of the new Eco 700 watt SEBO Felix and have to say there is no noticeable difference owning one of the standard 1300 watt Felix. I did think it was slightly more powerful the Eco model, quieter and a lot less hot air coming out of it! I don't use my Felix on full power and its performs fine!

I'll admit I like these new restrictions on motor wattage for vacuum cleaners, less is more as they say!! If a lower watt vacuum can clean and perform just as good as a higher watt vacuum then there no need for the higher watts ones surely!? Plus it's encouraging manufacturers to design better machines from tools, nozzles, hoses, air paths, motors etc...to give better performance using a lower watt motor. Something I think has been lacking in the UK market for a while!


Post# 340975 , Reply# 53   1/9/2016 at 06:38 (3,001 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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I agree with you. I will be getting an Eco Miele model shortly to compare it to my 2200w S8.If it cleans as well then yes there's no need for higher watt cleaners but I'm still a little sceptical :-)

Post# 340979 , Reply# 54   1/9/2016 at 09:05 (3,001 days old) by Madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)        

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Thanks....it's understandable to be sceptical! I think you will be pleasantly surprised with an Eco vacuum! You'll have to let us all know what you think.

Apart from when I owned Dyson vacuums all others I've owned or used have had variable power control and never really had the need to use full power all the time. I might if used it to try it out but never purposely use full power no need too. Having said that none of them are over 1300 watts apart from my S7 Miele but I don't use it anymore. My Vorwerk doesn't use full power for most of the jobs it's used for and it only has a 900 watt motor. The only time it's on full power is for the vac and mop head which is required! Good design is key I think!



Post# 340981 , Reply# 55   1/9/2016 at 09:07 (3,001 days old) by Mike81 ()        

One thing that I have been wondering.
Why manufacturers don't use the twin fan motors anymore? My old canisters use 1000w twin fan motors. rpm is slower in those, but I can guarantee that those has at least 200-250 aw suction. And noise is much softer and ear pleasing than the most modern vacuums, because of the lower rpm. Especially my AEG Vampyr 402 from the early 90's has very good suction + low noise level.


Post# 340982 , Reply# 56   1/9/2016 at 09:30 (3,001 days old) by Madaboutsebo (Midlands, UK)        

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Good point raised, forgot about twin fan motors. I believe some Electrolux of past used twin fan motors. They worked very well and like you say less noise too. Most be a reason why they don't. Mind you some are moving to brushless motors which spin faster, don't they use less power not sure! But you still get noise of the airflow around the motor! How about a brushless twin fan motor spinning slower!

Post# 340985 , Reply# 57   1/9/2016 at 10:51 (3,001 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Twin motors arent fitted anymore because Id imagine they add weight as well as one more thing to go wrong. This is one reason to why SEBO did that Evolution upright with one motor as opposed to two. Even in the commercial cleaning world, its better to have one motor go down if it does happen than two.

Post# 340992 , Reply# 58   1/9/2016 at 12:20 (3,001 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

The biggest advantage of two motors from the point of veiw of a commercial user was that if the cleaner failed due to brush roll problems, a new head could be fitted so as to carry on using the cleaner. That's the theory.

In practise, I don't think it was taken advantage of as much as it could have been.


Post# 341007 , Reply# 59   1/9/2016 at 15:51 (3,001 days old) by Mike81 ()        
one motor with two turbines

I was talking about one motor with two turbines. More suction with lower wattage, lower rpm & less noise.

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Post# 341013 , Reply# 60   1/9/2016 at 17:58 (3,001 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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And I'll reiterate - more spin from two fans means one may well likely to go down whilst the other soldiers on. Or it could just be cost of having two fans on one motor these days.

Post# 341016 , Reply# 61   1/9/2016 at 18:45 (3,001 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Yes
My assumption: Manufacturers have made the decision that it's cheaper to do the single fan motor and just make motor to spin faster to remain the same suction. That's why we have nowadays a lot of those noisy high pitched sounding vacuums.
Twin fan motor is much more complicated to produce than single fan = cost saving.


Post# 341017 , Reply# 62   1/9/2016 at 19:26 (3,001 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        
Single fans

Motors are funny things, because many of the clean-fan uprights in the UK (though by no means all) had only one moving fan and one static set of vanes, and these were never high wattage motors, nor were they noisy, so I guess it proves that it's possible to make a satisfactory motor with one fan, but as you say, it's probably a costly process.

Another cleaner with only one fan was the Philips cylinder. They used the same motor (albeit with different wattages) for years and years and years in all different models, and this only a single-fan motor. Despite this, the cleaners were powerful, very quiet, and cheap to buy when compared to others.

What I find interesting about anything that is built to keep costs down is that it doesn't always tie-in with what needs to happen. What do I mean by that? Well, prices of appliances in the UK have declined steadily over the years, largely due to the knock-on effect of mass consumerism and mass production, whereby a product becomes more desirable so more people purchase it, and this in turn brings prices down as manufacturers mass produce it and save money, and on it goes.

But into this we had imported goods which often sold for less than anything made in the UK, so that brought prices down and pushed competition up. But it was certainly a steady change. However, since the late 1990's when recommended retail pricing from manufacturers was outlawed, and with the internet coming to fruition, prices have plummeted. Did consumers demand this? I am not sure.

Cheap can be very dear. The only time anyone wins now is when they hand over money for a new appliance. Everything else is a loss. Practically everything seems to be made in the Far East now, nothing is repaired any more, so many local shops for all types of appliances have closed, major retailers like Comet have gone bust, and appliances of all shapes and sizes are bought with the knowledge that they won't last very long at all. For the price, they are still good value in by opinion, but that doesn't solve the problems of course.





Post# 341029 , Reply# 63   1/9/2016 at 20:34 (3,001 days old) by Mike81 ()        
Philips vacuum cleaners

About the Philips vacuum cleaners you mentioned.
I used to be very sceptical about Philips until I bought the very first Philips vacuum cleaner. It was one of the latest high wattage vacuums (2200W) that was still in the store for sale.
Price was very low, only 99€. Model PerformerPro FC9193/01. Normal price for these were around 229-299€.
I was blown away how good it was. Extremely powerful, sealed Hepa13 filtration, high quality S-bags and quiet soft sounding and more. Only complain what I had was the thick hose. It has been my parents vacuum for long time now. They really like it.
And yes it has single fan motor in weird position fan facing up.
So yes it is possible to do powerfull (500aw) and quiet single fan vacuum, but this Philips was top range model.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike81's LINK


Post# 341040 , Reply# 64   1/10/2016 at 04:17 (3,000 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

Philips cleaners disappeared from the UK about 1996. Since then the odd one has cropped up here and there over the years, but never a full range like it used to be. I've no idea why. Although some of their models were higher than this, 1000 watts was were the numbers seemed to stabilise when it came to wattage.

Post# 341043 , Reply# 65   1/10/2016 at 07:54 (3,000 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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I dont know why Philips have left the UK either. They certainly appear to sell vacuums in other European countries. I like their SDA ranges in general; we used to have a twin motor Philips mixer in the 1980s when my mum sold off her Kenwood Chef; the Philips went for years until one of the gears broke.

Amazon UK sometimes lists the odd vacuum cleaner model if you're lucky but then there's the question of bag availability if buying bagged.


Post# 341054 , Reply# 66   1/10/2016 at 11:58 (3,000 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Philips PerformerExpert is the current top range model. Motor is only 650W and measured suction 196AW. However EU energy label shows excellent results.
So 650W may sound ridiculously low, but if it performs well does it matter?

Consumer reports test and top 3 vacuums:

Electrolux ZUOQUATTRO UltraOne 785W
Philips PerformerExpert FC8721 / 09 650W
Miele Complete C3 Celebration EcoLine Plus 800W

I think these "low power" vacuum cleaners will keep our houses very clean despite some bias.


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Post# 341062 , Reply# 67   1/10/2016 at 14:47 (3,000 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Respectively though Mike, I think you’ve fallen for the charms of the EU label and you won’t be the first. Plenty of buyers will be fooled into thinking that the higher the rating the better it will be. I speak from experience here as the label that came with my Hoover Idol stick vacuum states A for carpet performance and A for hard floor performance - yet the tools it comes with make no sense at all and in reality are worse than a standard combi floor tool.

Also as has been discussed before air watts decrease unless the suction is 100% in place all of the time. So whilst you may well start off with 785 air watts by the time a full cleaning is done within a week of a new bag being placed in the vacuum, that figure will have decreased by some extent.

The energy labels aren't always truthful as they are tested by the manufacturer, not an independent company.


Post# 341063 , Reply# 68   1/10/2016 at 15:18 (3,000 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Well yes I know that the EU label don't tell the real performance. I should have corrected that. That's why we have Consumer Reports to tell the real truth.
Here are the real cleaning results done by independent Consumer Reports:


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Post# 341069 , Reply# 69   1/10/2016 at 16:11 (3,000 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Yet again though, its like car performance data, or even data on other services - those are datas collected by a company who has set up testing with specific criteria.

A household owner isn’t going to be testing carpet performance using how many grams of sand versus actual dirt or pet hair and even at that they won’t be measuring the amount of pet hair that their home has.

Even if a HEPA filter on board gives a high count of “purity of exhaust air,” long term the stink caused in the hose isn’t going to be saved by the HEPA filter. Get what I mean by these results?

Whilst it offers some value for some buyers, I don’t think it is particularly trustworthy to rely on these data tables or indeed “independent” testing. It can be independent yes but unless the criteria is established and known there is no real way of finding how much a vacuum cleaner performs without actual ownership.

Also per country, brands like Miele offer different models with slightly different spec.

Then there’s floor tools - if they all use eco led Wessel Werk then there should be no vast difference of pick up if both brand’s models have the same motor rating.

What the criteria should be listing is measurement of the hose length. Too many brands are now fitting shorter hoses which compromises cleaning for the owner. A clear example of this is Hoover Europe. Perhaps to compensate for lack of pull, shorter hoses would minimise suction air so that more is concentrated at the head.


Post# 341073 , Reply# 70   1/10/2016 at 16:33 (3,000 days old) by Vintagerepairer (England)        

Page 21 of 28 you may read what Sebo say

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Vintagerepairer's LINK


Post# 341082 , Reply# 71   1/10/2016 at 19:21 (3,000 days old) by Mike81 ()        
Laboratory vs Home

I totally understand what you mean.
I give you one example. When Dyson is testing their latest "doesn't clog" multi cyclonic vacuums it doesn't count what happens in home.
Hose end can be blocked what means collapse in airflow = disturbed airflow in cyclones. Also too full bin and so on. That's why youtube has tons of videos how to open clogged cyclone assembly.
Consumer Reports gives a rough guide. Example how a certain vacuums do very poorly on the pet hair due to the poor nozzle design.





Post# 341105 , Reply# 72   1/11/2016 at 10:54 (2,999 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Sebo have also printed that info on their UK site but a few of the UK members have already been saying this all along.



Post# 341107 , Reply# 73   1/11/2016 at 11:28 (2,999 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)        

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Very good points. :-)

Post# 341108 , Reply# 74   1/11/2016 at 11:32 (2,999 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Now that's a good article!
One thing what immediately struck my eye. It was about too sealed nozzles/soleplates. It causes nozzle to glue to the surface, hard to move and pushing dirt instead of picking it up. These kind of vacuums are pain to use.
This is what people complain A LOT in the Internet.

Even the Consumer Reports complained about this issue saying:
"Most of the vacuums suck up the dust from the carpet efficiently, but vacuuming was too hard work: for example, the nozzle does not slide smoothly. Several top-ranked vacuums got only poor or acceptable ease of use points when vacuuming the carpets"






Post# 341145 , Reply# 75   1/11/2016 at 18:23 (2,999 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Yes but that is different - if owners are failing to realise that the combi suction floor tool has to have the pedals to push down the stiff bristles on a hard floor or even a wall, they're going to get a hard to push result as the floor tool is in carpet mode by default.

The eco floor heads I've experienced are awful for each EU test data; hard floor tool with a rubber squeegee that rolls on hard floors but picks up little to a carpet nozzle with a thin opening channel strip made up of double rubber squeegees that still makes it difficult to glide.

The combi suction floor head eliminates that even if owners have to change the floor setting. Only combi suction floor tool that I have found to be different is that of the Sebo Deluxe Kombi double jointed floor head. It is now sold as simply SEBO Kombi floor head -and I find at times it can clean a hard floor without adjusting the brushes to emerge.


Post# 341179 , Reply# 76   1/12/2016 at 06:35 (2,998 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Well there you have it Mike et al. What more proof do you need that a 700w motor can still pull in sufficient sucking power? As you can plainly see in that video, the suction is still strong and still plenty to clean a floor with.

Post# 341188 , Reply# 77   1/12/2016 at 11:09 (2,998 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Yes I totally believe it. This whole topic just went to the wrong direction. My point in the first post was just to show that the suction isn't the same anymore (many people has claimed so).
But it definitely is more than enough when the vacuum is designed well. And it certainly is enough to clean well.
Here is a video that shows how almost 30 old vacuum cleaner with the 1000W motor can produce great suction and pick up well.
If it can then modern low wattage vacuums shouldn't have any trouble at all.





Post# 341211 , Reply# 78   1/12/2016 at 15:42 (2,998 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Well it's like I said, whilst there may be a loss in actual suction, the performance hasn't dropped.


Post# 341256 , Reply# 79   1/13/2016 at 09:15 (2,997 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Yes but Im hoping that brands like Hoover Europe re-learn the process. Im hoping they will stop including the silly twin floor heads and just use a single floor head. One lives in hope.

Post# 341257 , Reply# 80   1/13/2016 at 10:07 (2,997 days old) by Mike81 ()        

That Hoover "carpet extra" nozzle is horrible. It is one of those things what make you wonder what they were thinking when designing it. And to make the matters worse you have to change the nozzle every time when you go from carpet to hard floor and vice versa.
After all numerous nozzles that I have used the Electrolux "Dust Magnet" is my favorite. It has 4 wheels so you can use it on bare floors even when the brushes are up and when the brushes are down you can use it on the carpet (to give extra agitation), because brushes are floating. Of course optimal carpet setting is brushes up. Very good design in my opinion.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike81's LINK


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Post# 341269 , Reply# 81   1/13/2016 at 14:00 (2,997 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Im glad in a way that whilst there are plenty of cheap Chinese floor heads on the market, the open market in Europe means owners can get a professional floor tool from the likes of Wessel Werk. It may be costly but in the long run it gives the kind of performance already provided by the likes of Miele, Bosch and SEBO, even if SEBO choose to use some of their own patented floor heads.

Their Parquet Deluxe floor tool also has floating brush strips that I can find can also be used on carpet. The brush strips are also removable and there are four wheels on that model as well as their Kombi Deluxe floor tool.


Post# 341465 , Reply# 82   1/17/2016 at 07:09 (2,993 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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For those concerned that lower power motors can't pull in strong suction. I've said this a hundred times at least, but the current 620w Henry sucks and cleans perfectly well. Here's a demo.

 





Post# 341476 , Reply# 83   1/17/2016 at 11:30 (2,993 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

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I found that despite Numatic have used many different types of motors in Henry's, over the years, with single and twin fans and also different wattages... The suction power on them has always been consistent.

Post# 341477 , Reply# 84   1/17/2016 at 13:37 (2,993 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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The suction power has always been consistent in Numatic vacs because it is partly down to the rubberised membrane to the start of the bag where no suction air gets a chance to escape and then the filter basket at the top of the bag. Only other controllable air vent would be the air suction release twist valve at the top of the suction hose handle, which many owners have used in lieu of Hi/Lo switch function.

Good video Chris, but actual pick up of dust would be good to see rather than running around on a clean carpet (and I love the style btw)


Post# 341478 , Reply# 85   1/17/2016 at 13:40 (2,993 days old) by Mike81 ()        

This Henry 620W is just amazing and good example how it is possible to get a good suction from the low wattage motor.
Here is my own test (turbo brush spin speed) Small differences in my opinion.
Volta 1000W
Samsung 1200W
Electrolux 2100W
Philips 2200W





Post# 341481 , Reply# 86   1/17/2016 at 14:30 (2,993 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Now come on Nar, you should know better than that - there's no DUST in my house! It doesn't get a chance to settle lol.

Good points raised, but even pre-Hepa Flo's and when used with an old style paper bag, the suction is still the same. Personally, I think the tub design helps the Numatic's, giving a bigger surface area for the airflow to remain consistent.

 

I was mainly trying to respond to the concerns that lower power doesn't suck as much and won't spin a turbo brush. I will have to try this out with my 700w Miele and put some dirt down (not that I have any, of course :P) to see how that performs.

 

Mike, great video and you're right, there's very little difference between cleaners there. And the small difference certainly wouldn't be enough to stop the cleaner picking up.


Post# 341483 , Reply# 87   1/17/2016 at 15:11 (2,993 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

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I have no idea why this would be a concern anyway, vacuum cleaners from the past were lower wattage and better than todays cleaners anyway in terms of performance, lower suction isnt the issue, it is the tools really.

Post# 341484 , Reply# 88   1/17/2016 at 15:17 (2,993 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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vacuum cleaners from the past were lower wattage and better than todays cleaners anyway in terms of performance

 

Amen to that!


Post# 341485 , Reply# 89   1/17/2016 at 15:23 (2,993 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Nar, trying to avoid some shamless self promotion, but I did a video as part of my blog in which you can see the Henry picking up baking soda from the carpet with the airo brush. I'll try and do a specific test video in the next week or so.





Post# 341492 , Reply# 90   1/17/2016 at 16:13 (2,993 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Have a look...

But I do have an open mind - this is an older video from 2012...






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Post# 341496 , Reply# 91   1/17/2016 at 16:20 (2,993 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Errr...Nar...I posted that so you could see the Airo Brush at least picking something up off the carpet. I wasn't intending to start a debate about the use of vinegar :P


Post# 341502 , Reply# 92   1/17/2016 at 16:31 (2,993 days old) by Mike81 ()        

One thing to mention. When you use canister with the powerhead or upright. Then it is the brushroll what do most of the work.
Then suction certainly doesn't matter unless it's poor.
Uprights usually have slightly weaker suction than canisters, but they still clean better due to the effective brushroll.
I can guarantee that my over 30 year old 250W Vorwerk VK 117-1H upright + powerhead can clean better than any 2200W canister + turbobrush.
Difference would be even greater if I would use my commercial 1030W Kärcher CV36/2 (SEBO BS36) upright (made in 1999). Its design is quite old now.


Post# 341503 , Reply# 93   1/17/2016 at 16:36 (2,993 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Absolutely Mike! That's why, even when Hoover were still selling 250w Juniors, their cylinders went up to 1000w. I shall have to give this a try with both the turbo brush and straight suction tools.


Post# 341506 , Reply# 94   1/17/2016 at 16:47 (2,993 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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No, its not a debate Chris, just me havin' an opinion. Vinegar is good for some things but not all. I'll stick to washing up liquid for on the spot carpet stains. Anything else and its a major job with the Vax or others.



Post# 341510 , Reply# 95   1/17/2016 at 18:06 (2,993 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

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I never think of blotting a stain, I just get the carpet cleaner out.

Post# 341552 , Reply# 96   1/18/2016 at 12:45 (2,992 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Here's the Argos Value large bagged cylinder vac with its difficult to control floor head. Also shows off the Bosch Wessel Werk floor head similar to Chris's floor head with the Numatic.






Post# 341555 , Reply# 97   1/18/2016 at 13:08 (2,992 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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Nar, is that Argos vac a 32mm fit?


Post# 341556 , Reply# 98   1/18/2016 at 13:35 (2,992 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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No, it uses 35mm sizings - same with the Hoover TeliosPlus. This Argos Vac is the same model as the Hoover Thunderspace which has been released in several European countries but not the UK yet. Will probably arrive at some point in Eco mode colours.

Post# 341889 , Reply# 99   1/24/2016 at 08:05 (2,986 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)        

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The problem with that though Nar, is that the kind of person who buys a £40 vacuum isn't then going to spend another £50 buying a Bosch floortool to go with it. I don't imagine that that sort of person would even think that the problem with the vacuum was the floortool lol

Post# 341890 , Reply# 100   1/24/2016 at 08:20 (2,986 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

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We cant all aford expensive cleaners, so we have to make do with what we can.

Fortunately though and like myslef, we are not all common. 😝



Post# 342048 , Reply# 101   1/26/2016 at 09:12 (2,984 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Very true Chris, but for those who are collectors on here its good to know of alternatives that can fit that cheap vacuum.

Conversely enough though of the non-collector people I've spoken to who might go out and buy a Miele vac will seldom see them buying an additional tool even if it might give extra cleaning versatility. This is down to the already expensive cost price of the Miele vac in question.




This post was last edited 01/26/2016 at 09:31
Post# 342231 , Reply# 102   1/28/2016 at 16:16 (2,982 days old) by Mike81 ()        
250 vs 1000 watts vacuum cleaning power

So I finally made video just for this topic.
Purpose of this test is to show will more powerful vacuum cleaner clean better or do you need more than the strong suction.
This test also shows how the new low wattage EU canisters compare to the old dirty fan upright vacuum cleaner.
Powerhead wasn't used in the canister, because the canister vacuums in the Europe very rarely have one. Uprights will almost always have the powered brushroll.





Post# 342239 , Reply# 103   1/28/2016 at 18:38 (2,982 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

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Interesting video but Im failing to actually see the point. This is because you're not using an air driven turbo brush on the Vorwerk, but rather an independent electric motor on the power nozzle PLUS the suction motor.

The cylinder vac has a single motor which also has to supply the air to the turbo brush.


Post# 342242 , Reply# 104   1/28/2016 at 19:51 (2,982 days old) by Mike81 ()        
Old vs new

This was more like a comparison let's say old Hoover Turbopower vs modern Miele Cat & Dog. Result would be the same. Modern people would never guess the result. That's the point.

However I can re done the test using straight suction nozzle in both machines. That would show the difference about suction power. Vorwerk wouldn't have suction to drive the turbo nozzle.
Or I could do the test between 2200w Philips PerformerPro (500 aw) vs this Volta (about 200-250 aw).


Post# 342252 , Reply# 105   1/28/2016 at 22:25 (2,982 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Oh I think they would know the difference given that the PN head is well known in the U.S against an air driven turbo brush. The fact that the turbo brush takes twice as long might not take twice as long when attached to a higher powered vacuum.

Infact when I think about it, higher suction power DOES allow air turbine brushes to move faster. But it also depends on the turbo brush in question and the carpet pile unless the turbo brush has an air outlet to stop the brush from getting stuck. I've bought some that leak far too much air even when added to a high powered vacuum.

Also is that canister vacuum really a new eco modern vac, or a vintage vac with an already low power motor?


Post# 342264 , Reply# 106   1/29/2016 at 07:11 (2,981 days old) by Mike81 ()        

In Finland most of the people don't know anything about powerheads. We always have had straight suction canisters and some turboheads.

Like you said the turbohead greatly benefits powerful suction. My all time favorite turbohead is made by Electrolux it has floating spring loaded brushroll unlike the most turboheads that have free floating brushroll. It's rather aggressive being just air driven. It actually shows some visual agitation and roars when brushroll is contact with the carpet. But it has one design flaw. It has no suction release holes or valve so it stops spinning on some carpets. I just cutted small holes to it and now it works fine.
See it in the link.

That Volta canister in the video may not be the new eco model, but it should have suction close to the new eco models.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike81's LINK


Post# 342265 , Reply# 107   1/29/2016 at 07:24 (2,981 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Yes but respectively an old Volta may have better sealing than the eco modern vacs or even the opposite. Plus factoring in larger dust bag or smaller, synthetic dust bag or thicker paper HEPA style bag that can result in a loss of suction plus whatever is at the exhaust.

You started this thread with the decrease of air watts in modern eco vacs versus the high watt motor vacs of previous before the EU law. You've ended up showing a video with two old vacuums that use modern floor heads.

The video link you've added is good and it shows a very well developed air driven turbo brush. What is the white stuff you have put down?


Post# 342266 , Reply# 108   1/29/2016 at 07:30 (2,981 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
As for Turbopower vs Miele Cat and Dog - I think the Turbopower might be faster on account that it has a superior agitator that beats and sweeps the carpet at the same time compared to the rolling brush on a Miele cylinder vac. Its a dirty fan upright versus a clean fan cylinder vac.

Post# 342269 , Reply# 109   1/29/2016 at 07:51 (2,981 days old) by Mike81 ()        

I have to admit that my video wasn't exactly what this thread was originally about. There was just so much comments how it's not the suction that matters, it's combination of other things too and so on. So video was answer to that.
Note that I use large fleece bags in this Volta and in Vorwerk.


Post# 342270 , Reply# 110   1/29/2016 at 07:52 (2,981 days old) by Mike81 ()        

That stuff on the carpet was very fine sawdust.

Post# 342321 , Reply# 111   1/29/2016 at 19:34 (2,981 days old) by AlexHoovers94 (Manchester UK)        

alexhoovers94's profile picture
Hoover Turbopower V Miele cylinder?? Are you crazy, no comparison! When it comes to performance, the Hoover is far supirior.

Post# 342418 , Reply# 112   1/30/2016 at 14:02 (2,980 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Exactly!
But "normal" people who are looking for new vacuum cleaner they would think that fancy new Miele is superior.
Sounds crazy, but most of the people have no idea what it takes to really clean the carpets.


Post# 342527 , Reply# 113   1/31/2016 at 15:18 (2,979 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)        

sebo_fan's profile picture
Yes but then owners dont have a clue in general sometimes - they use the combi suction floor head with the bristles DOWN on carpet because they seem to think the bristle perimeter will scrub the carpet clean - and then wonder why the combi suction pedal fails early.

Other things that owners do - and heavens knows why - when cleaning with a cylinder/canister vac, they end up double jointed over the handle with one hand on the handle and the other hand on the suction tube further down the suction tube as if it is meant to add pressure to the floor head when sucking up dirt.


Post# 342581 , Reply# 114   1/31/2016 at 22:40 (2,979 days old) by Mike81 ()        

That is the major problem, because most people don't know how to properly use the vacuum cleaner. I have come across people who use the parquet nozzle on the carpets to get extra agitation. Then like you said using the combination floor/rug tool wrong way. Laminate or wood floors don't exactly look nice when they are vacuumed bristles up.
But biggest problem is the lack of maintenance. For example my Sister buys about every year very cheap bagless vacuum to save money on the bags. She don't take care of the filters and result has been several burnt out motors.
Then my parents. My Mom is very demanding about the vacuum cleaners and She knows how to use them. However problem has been the lack of maintenance. I have helped to give Her a vacuum from my collection (and I got their current vacuum). One was the bagless Electrolux UltraPerformer. She liked it alot, but they "forgot" to wash the pre motor filter and I usually did the maintenance.
I thought that bagged vacuum would be right choice for Her and I gave Her a bagged Philips PerformerPro and I take back the Electrolux.
After a year She complained about reduced suction. Bag was hard as a rock, bag compartment was dusty and so was the pre motor filters.
Turned out that She had used it about a year with the same dust bag. My Dad had just emptied the bag when the bag was hard as a brick. What usually happends is that
when emptying the bag dust tends to also stick to the outside of the bag and after several emptying bag clogs up. So needless to say I ended up cleaning the whole vacuum, filters and buying new bags for it.


Post# 342879 , Reply# 115   2/5/2016 at 09:59 (2,974 days old) by Mike81 ()        

Here is a video of dirty air 250W vs clean air 1000W vacuum cleaner cleaning performance. Dirty air vacuum may not have a good suction, but airflow makes it pick up well. I think this video proves it.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike81's LINK



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