Thread Number: 2910
1205 Popping Open
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Post# 31910   2/13/2008 at 23:53 (5,887 days old) by danemodsandy ()        

I thought I'd start a new thread on this, if it's okay...

I've removed the cover from my 1205's bag door, and looked very carefully at everything. There are no tubes loose, crimped, or blocked. After only a few minutes of vacuuming with the dusting brush, the bag door pops open and the "Bag Check" light comes on (nice to know it works).

The little black rubber horn is pliable and uncracked, as well. With the cover off the bag door, I can see that the diaphragm and plunger that activate the door's latch are working too, like maybe too well.

This machine was in a thrift with a clogged hose, being played with for about two weeks before I bought it. Is it possible that the clog put too much strain on the diaphragm or something, somehow rupturing it or something?

I knew I wasn't meant to have a 1205!


Post# 31912 , Reply# 1   2/13/2008 at 23:58 (5,887 days old) by lux1521 ()        

I don't think it is the diaphram because that is what allows it to open. If the the diaphram was ruptured it would never open on its own. You can rule that part out.

Have you adjusted the dial yet? Make sure you have it set to 6, then see how things work.


Post# 31913 , Reply# 2   2/14/2008 at 00:02 (5,887 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Erick:

Dial adjustment makes no difference- I left that out of my previous post, sorry.

'Tis a puzzlement!


Post# 31914 , Reply# 3   2/14/2008 at 00:35 (5,887 days old) by cleaningbuff (Quincy, IL)        
1205

cleaningbuff's profile picture
Ssndy
Take out the bag and look in the bottom of the bag chamber at the screen that covers the motor, see if it has accumulated lint dirt and other debris.
Robert


Post# 31915 , Reply# 4   2/14/2008 at 00:43 (5,887 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Robert:

There was some, but I cleaned it out earlier tonight, and no change.

Post# 31921 , Reply# 5   2/14/2008 at 05:28 (5,887 days old) by crevicetool (GA )        
Sandy,

There is a small orifice in the hose connection. One of the tubes from the valve/diaphragm connects to it. See if it clogged. Seeing how your hose was stuck for so long-it might have gotten crusted over. It is a very small hole, so be careful cleaning it.
Rick


Post# 31930 , Reply# 6   2/14/2008 at 08:09 (5,887 days old) by collector2 (Moose Jaw, Sk)        

collector2's profile picture
I concur with Rick. Usually that problem was caused by the diaphram connetion in the throat being plugged. We used to take the plastic hose off it then use a pin to clean it out. (Yes - I was an Electrolux service tec for 10 years). The release is actuated by a difference in pressure between the sides of the diaphram - one side is connected behind the bag the other infront of it to the throat. If the front one gets clogged it actuates it.

Post# 31943 , Reply# 7   2/14/2008 at 11:21 (5,886 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Oh, Brothah!

Wouldn't you know that what I found would generate another question?

I'm including another of my infamous MS Paint sketches to illustrate. What I found was that the vac hose tube has a little metal tube (looks like brass) coming out its side, as you guys described. But looking at the end of the little metal tube, there is a greyish substance filling the end of it- there is the tee-ninsiest hole in the centre of that greyish substance. The finest sewing needle I have in the house will not pass through the hole. Now here's the question:

Is that grey substance impacted dirt, or is it some kind of plastic plug in the brass tube that is supposed to have the tiny hole in its centre? If I look into the vac hose tube and look at the other end of the brass tube, that end of the brass tube is free and clear, with nothing inserted into it.

If this is a clue, the plastic vacuum tube I removed from the brass tube was filthy dirty inside, requiring soaking and pipe cleaners to clear.

Thanks for bearing with me- I feel like we're in the home stretch.


Post# 31962 , Reply# 8   2/14/2008 at 17:47 (5,886 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)        

aeoliandave's profile picture
Mmm, good sketch and a great question. I'm looking forward to the definitve answer.

I have only hands-on experience with LXs and the next generation of metal body Electrolux auto door system. All of these have a one piece brass tube with a closed end that has a teensy bleed hole, smaller than the average dressmakers pin, drilled through the closed end.1 Meaning smaller than 1/64". No inserted plug.
I have worked on LX, E, AE, G etc bleed nipples that were dust impacted reducing the size of the bleed to a hair's width, or completely plugged.

My AP100, which works and pops open as designed, has an all plastic bag door with the powerhose socket and bleed tube nipple an integral part of the casting. It has a just under 1/32" bleed hole drilled through the plastic nipple.

It's my suspicion that the bleed hole can't be any larger than this and allow the system to function reliably.

The pinhole sized bleed lets the latch diaphram collapse slowly as suction is reduced - a bleed as large as 1/8" would cause the diaphram to collapse imediately, defeating the purpose.

So, maybe that is a gray plastic plug. Pokeing it with a needle will soon cause it to disintegrate if it is impacted dust. If not, it's a plug.

As I say, I have no direct knowledge of the later American versions of the Canadian AP100, which was introduced here in 1973.

Dave, always interested in engineering analysis.



Post# 31963 , Reply# 9   2/14/2008 at 17:50 (5,886 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)        
AP100 bleed hole just inside intake

aeoliandave's profile picture
Mmm, good sketch and a great question. I'm looking forward to the definitve answer.

I have only hands-on experience with LXs and the next generation of metal body Electrolux auto door system. All of these have a one piece brass tube with a closed end that has a teensy bleed hole, smaller than the average dressmakers pin, drilled through the closed end.1 Meaning smaller than 1/64". No inserted plug.
I have worked on LX, E, AE, G etc bleed nipples that were dust impacted reducing the size of the bleed to a hair's width, or completely plugged.

My AP100, which works and pops open as designed, has an all plastic bag door with the powerhose socket and bleed tube nipple an integral part of the casting. It has a just under 1/32" bleed hole drilled through the plastic nipple.

It's my suspicion that the bleed hole can't be any larger than this and allow the system to function reliably.

The pinhole sized bleed lets the latch diaphram collapse slowly as suction is reduced - a bleed as large as 1/8" would cause the diaphram to collapse imediately, defeating the purpose.

So, maybe that is a gray plastic plug. Pokeing it with a needle will soon cause it to disintegrate if it is impacted dust. If not, it's a plug.

As I say, I have no direct knowledge of the later American versions of the Canadian AP100, which was introduced here in 1973.

Dave, always interested in engineering analysis.



Post# 31964 , Reply# 10   2/14/2008 at 17:52 (5,886 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)        

aeoliandave's profile picture
Hose from nipple to rubber 'trumpet'.

btw, I like that term, trumpet. :-)


Post# 31965 , Reply# 11   2/14/2008 at 17:53 (5,886 days old) by aeoliandave (Stratford Ontario Canada)        

aeoliandave's profile picture
Integral drilled out bleed nipple.

Post# 31966 , Reply# 12   2/14/2008 at 17:54 (5,886 days old) by crevicetool (GA )        
Nice drawings

I would like to know how you did that and the wording!!!
Anyway, I think if you wipe off the grayish material you'll see that it doesn't fill the brass nipple like you think it does. That stuff should just be on the surface. However, your brass nipple should look like your drawing with tiny hole. I tried it on mine just now, and I could not get a straight pin through the hole either. It is much smaller than that. Since you have cleared your tube from the valve to the nipple, I would stick it back on and try blowing out the nipple. Now the hose connector side is larger, so you could "dig" around in there a little, without hurting anything. When you blow on the tube you should be able to feel very little coming out the other end. I know, Imagine that brass nipple to resemble a cup with a hole in the bottom, in the center.
Rick


Post# 31967 , Reply# 13   2/14/2008 at 18:09 (5,886 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Rick and Dave:

The drawing was done in MS Paint, which is kinda kludgy, but it works okay for rough sketches. I have other programmes that do better work, but they're more trouble to use.

I will poke away at the bleed hole with a tiny needle, and see what happens. It seems like a weird arrangement, though. If the actual bleed hole needs to be so small, putting it within a plug that is force-fitted into the brass tube would seem to be a failure-prone design. The suction forces in that area are surely high enough to force a plug out of a tube every once in a while.

Just for grits and giggles, can anyone tell me why there should be a suction tube running to the cordwinder on these things? I replaced the cordwinder last night, and had to switch the tube over to the new unit.


Post# 31970 , Reply# 14   2/14/2008 at 18:55 (5,886 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
DAMN!

The bag door is still popping open. I managed to clean the little orifice, using the finest sewing needle I had on hand, a pair of needle-nosed pliers, and of course, safety goggles. After several attempts, and some language I will not repeat here, the needle cleared through the plug and passed through into the vac hose tube.

BUT- the pop-open problem continues. Here are exact symptoms:

1- Suction on this thing is excellent.
2- I'm using the Medium Dirt setting on the Automatic Control, which is the setting I've always used on every Automatic Electrolux I've ever owned.
3- When vacuuming, everything goes fine for about one minute.
4- When anything increases the motor strain (say, vacuuming a table top with the dusting brush), you can see the bag door move. If you put your hand over the hose end and then take it away, you'll see the bag door move in and out with the increase and decrease in motor strain.
5- Each time the bag door moves in response to the increase in motor strain, it opens a little more, maybe 1/16 inch.
6- After a minute or so of bag door movement, the bag door falls open and the Bag Check light comes on.
7- The problem seems to be slightly better than it was last night, when the orifice was completely clogged, but only VERY slightly, and it could be wishful thinking on my part.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


Post# 31976 , Reply# 15   2/14/2008 at 19:31 (5,886 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
More Info:

Dunno if this will help our differential diagnosis, but...

...The problem does not occur when using the PN-2, nor the floor/rug tool. The floor/rug tool was tested on both its sides, vacuuming both hard flooring and carpet. Only when I use the dusting brush does this happen, or when I test the problem out by putting my hand over the hose end.


Post# 31993 , Reply# 16   2/14/2008 at 21:14 (5,886 days old) by crevicetool (GA )        
OK, Let me ponder the new details....

of what could be wrong with your 1205.In the meantime, let me 'splain the hose from the bag chamber to the cordwinder. That is a Minimum cooling air passage for the motor in case of a completely blocked intake or clogged hose. Very minimal, as much air movement is required to keep that motor cool, that little 1/4 inch hole and it's hose ain't gonna cool that motor for long.

Post# 31996 , Reply# 17   2/14/2008 at 21:29 (5,886 days old) by crevicetool (GA )        
While I think about the

possible problems, I need you to do a test. You say the bag door moves when the motor strains. Run the machine and try to get it to do what it did before with the dusting brush/hand, etc., While holding the door tightly closed against the machine. If this solves the problem, and you don't see the latch opening, then, well just try that. Let us know what the results were..
Rick


Post# 31998 , Reply# 18   2/14/2008 at 21:45 (5,886 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Rick:

Test performed- door was held closed, then machine was switched on and vacuuming done with the dusting brush. Door held closed the entire time.

Result- When the machine was switched on, the bag door release button could be seen to move outward and downward. So long as the bag door was held closed, everything was fine. As soon as the bag door was not held closed any more, it released and fell open.


Post# 32018 , Reply# 19   2/15/2008 at 09:50 (5,886 days old) by elux89 ()        

Sandy:
I had a similar situation with my mother's Epic 6500. Unit would run fine until any resistance/strain would be placed on the motor, it would shut off. It was actually the adjustable valve that was causing the problem. I'm not to sure about the model 1205, but I do believe the valve is the same style as the 1521 series canisters, in which case similar to the plastic canister valves. When you turn the adjustable valve, on the stem, there is a small rubber O ring that is surrounded on the top and bottom with a plastic flange, what happened with ours is that the plastic flange cracked, preventing the O ring from making a proper seal. What I did to determine the problem, disconnect the air line to the switch (plastic canister), or in your case the power diaphragm that pulls the door open, if your 1205 runs fine after this, I'd be looking at replacing/checking the adjustable valve.

Hope this is of help

Vernon


Post# 32020 , Reply# 20   2/15/2008 at 10:28 (5,886 days old) by louvac (A)        

Sandy....

Vernon is correct on this one. I had a similar problem with a model G. When I got it, the automatic function had been disabled for the same reason. They practically denuded it of all the automatic functioning gear. I put it all back and then encountered the same problem. After much trial and error, I noticed an ever so slight of a crack in the adjustable valve. I replaced it and viola! Success. In short, there is a leak or a small void in the system that may be hard to detect. Re-examine all of the parts and while you are at it, replace the tubing which is nothing more than aquarium tubing. Or, wash all of the tubing out with a Q-tip. There is a solution to this problem and you will find it.


Post# 32026 , Reply# 21   2/15/2008 at 13:32 (5,885 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Oy.

So, if I understand correctly, the consensus of opinion here is that I have a bad valve. Unless I miss my guess, that part is long since NLA for a 1205, which means I'm going to have to find one in someone's parts stash.

If anyone has any other ideas about this situation, I'd be grateful to hear 'em!

I will tell you this- when I have a properly-functioning, great-looking 1205 in my collection at last, I will have earned the damn thing. This is my third try with one of these beauties.

Now- on to the great parts search...


Post# 32032 , Reply# 22   2/15/2008 at 14:43 (5,885 days old) by luxg ()        

Sandy, not sure if this has been suggested or not buth have you tried using a different Electrolux hose on the machine. My mothers 1205 came with a defective hose. It would clog after just a few minutes of use. If you have another hose give it a try, couldn't hurt.

Post# 32034 , Reply# 23   2/15/2008 at 15:06 (5,885 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
luxg:

The hose makes no difference. Not only do I have more than one hose that I've tried, the hose I prefer using with the 1205 also works perfectly with my Diamond Jubilee.

Thanks for thinking of other free options, though!


Post# 32035 , Reply# 24   2/15/2008 at 15:30 (5,885 days old) by elux89 ()        

Sandy,
The Lux part number for the adjustable valve on the 1205 was #40411. I don't know if it is still available or not. The 1521 metal canisters, the part number is #42020. I was able to get the 42020 about six months to a year ago. My recommendation would be to see if the two valves look identical or not. Many times they will change parts numbers, but the actual part is the same. I believe at one time the valve came with the barrel (where the numbers are written on), but the replacement only comes with the valve. Try removing the vacuum line to the power diaphragm, if this does the trick, you'll still be able to use the machine, just without the full bag indicator.

Another thing to check, never have done my self, but when you look into the bag chamber, at the top where the latch is, to the right you'll see a rubber connector seal that is attached to the top of the bag chamber, maybe this is cracked/plugged??

Vernon



Post# 32037 , Reply# 25   2/15/2008 at 15:56 (5,885 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Vernon:

Thanks! The part does not show up online, but then Aerus still runs things very much along the lines that Electrolux did, with their parts and repair system handled in-house. I suppose I should check with an Aerus dealer near here; we have a very good one not too far away.

I think what will probably work best is to keep my eyes peeled here and elsewhere for a 1205 with a burned-out motor, to use for parts. That should yield what I want.

I did check the little rubber "horn" or "trumpet". It's in great, uncracked, pliable condition. The last thing I intend to do before searching out a new automatic valve is to replace all the tubing with aquarium tubing, just to see if that will solve the problem. Aquarium tubing is cheap.


Post# 32041 , Reply# 26   2/15/2008 at 17:21 (5,885 days old) by constellation86 (Roy, UT)        

I had the same problem with a model G. I took appart the valve and the O-rings had stuck from sitting for years. I cleaned it out and put on a little vaseline to soften them up and now it works fine.
Also if I remember right the valve is pretty much the same for all pre-electronic luxes. I'd bet any metal body valve could be used. Any experts know for sure?
Nicholas


Post# 32042 , Reply# 27   2/15/2008 at 17:31 (5,885 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Vaseline on Rubber?

I thought Vaseline on rubber was a big no-no. I know you're not supposed to use it on latex gloves or condoms, because it will make them disintegrate. That's what water-based lubricants are for.

Wouldn't silicone work? I have liquid silicone on hand.


Post# 32043 , Reply# 28   2/15/2008 at 17:41 (5,885 days old) by cleaningbuff (Quincy, IL)        
1205 lux valve

cleaningbuff's profile picture
Sandy
I have a 1205 with a bad motor u can have it for the shipping if u want it. Let me know
Robert


Post# 32047 , Reply# 29   2/15/2008 at 21:21 (5,885 days old) by danemodsandy ()        
Wow!

Robert:

That is very nice of you, and I've written to you privately about it- check your email. Thanks!



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