Thread Number: 26857
that ugly keeler thread |
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Post# 300487 , Reply# 1   10/3/2014 at 07:48 (3,464 days old) by Miskini (Northville, Michigan )   |   | |
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Post# 300500 , Reply# 2   10/3/2014 at 10:13 (3,464 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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He wasn't a genius. Just a vac shop repair man who had some good ideas that didn't pan out. In the 1980's he 'devised' a way of adding a Hoover Dial-A-Matic transmission and wheels to a Kirby (and a Bison), along with the Hoover handle. The Kirby was another six inches longer than usual, making it VERY hard to use. He marketed his 'conversion' to power drive kit, directly to other vac shops. You could either buy the 'kit' or buy a Kirby already converted to power driven wheels. It was a tragedy. You couldn't give one away, they were so big and heavy.
His next 'invention' was the bagless conversion kit. In reality, it was a Eureka Optima dirt bin and filter, with a Kirby coupler. Talk about cutting down airflow and suction to the point of almost non-existence. Because the Kirby is always running as if the bag is full, the motor speeds way up - using your carbon brushes at a tremendous rate. Truly bad for the machine. Not to mention the person who has to empty it, and bang the filter. Instead of 'inventing' a different use for an existing product, he should have spent his time actually inventing something useful and novel that he could sell and make money with. Kind of like what James Dyson did. |
Post# 300511 , Reply# 3   10/3/2014 at 15:08 (3,464 days old) by Turbo500 (West Yorkshire, UK)   |   | |
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Oh brother, this old thing again. I still stand by everything I said in the original thread. |
Post# 300530 , Reply# 4   10/3/2014 at 18:22 (3,463 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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Post# 300545 , Reply# 5   10/3/2014 at 19:56 (3,463 days old) by daknx1994 (Southern Indiana)   |   | |
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I read the truck mount thread, and wholly cow that man can BRAG! Every post of his, "I have been in the business for 40 years", and so on. Even on that thread he will not except criticism. |
Post# 300578 , Reply# 6   10/4/2014 at 06:16 (3,463 days old) by Miskini (Northville, Michigan )   |   | |
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Post# 300591 , Reply# 7   10/4/2014 at 09:51 (3,463 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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That's the problem. He only makes money if some stupid person buys something from him. He might have been in business for 40 years but that's meaningless. Most (not all) vac shop owners are rip off artists. So is Mr. Keeler. The problem is that Mr. Keeler is used to selling his crap to the average person who owns a Kirby, not enthusiasts who spend their money restoring said Kirby to original condition. It makes no difference to Mr. Keeler that his 'invention' (a Eureka dirt bin and filter) doesn't function properly - it only matters that he sells it. He should have known better than to try and sell his junk to US.
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Post# 300617 , Reply# 8   10/4/2014 at 17:09 (3,462 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 300638 , Reply# 10   10/4/2014 at 23:22 (3,462 days old) by vintagevaclover (Athens, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 300644 , Reply# 11   10/5/2014 at 06:08 (3,462 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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Post# 300646 , Reply# 12   10/5/2014 at 06:31 (3,462 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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I think this is the thread. Correct me if I am wrong - www.vacuumland.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-...
The whole concept of converting a bagged vacuum such as a Kirby into a bagless one seems rather ridiculous and pointless. Those who are buying a Kirby know that they are bagged vacuums, or is one going to pay thousands of pounds for a vacuum in the hope that one day it will be bagless? You see what I mean? It doesn't take a genius here. Kirbys are bagged vacuums, with airflow and the architecture of the entire vacuum cantered around it using a bag. I fail to see how this man could ever had imagined using a plastic container with a cheapo cone pleated filter was actually a viable alternative. I don't completely dislike bagged vacuums, I just prefer bagless, but trying to make it into something it is not is just wrong, not to mention damaging to the vacuum. I remember to old cone pleated filters inside the dirt containers on bagless vacuums sort of 8 years ago before they went to cyclonic technology which is obviously more efficient. As someone mentioned on the thread, if he was serious into doing something like what he was trying to do, why not a system similar to dysons cyclone technology? I think many people will agree Dysons bagless systems are the best in the industry, rightly so considering the patents on it, although other manufactures come close. I don't know. That is certainly something I would do be into. Buy a bagged cleaner if you like bags, buy a bagless if you don't. Simples. Have these conversions caught on at all in the Kirby community, dare I ask ? |
Post# 300670 , Reply# 13   10/5/2014 at 12:01 (3,462 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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No, Keeler's bagless conversion kit has never caught on, mostly due to the fact the the filter got clogged after 5 minutes of vacuuming and then the canister emptied and filter removed and cleaned before you could continue.
For those of you who haven't seen Keeler's video on the Kirby bagless conversion, here it is:
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Post# 300678 , Reply# 14   10/5/2014 at 13:04 (3,462 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Well not quite. It depends on what you call "bagless." Bagless according to the Dyson mantra is the end of having to buy replacement dust bags. However before Dyson was ever created, bagged brands like Hoover used reusable fabric dust bags INSIDE the soft bag. Im sure the Kirby may well have had the same. Those were created when dust bags had run out and owners certainly recall those kind of bags being quite dirty to clean out.
Before that, models like the Hoover Junior 119 (and some others before that) never originally had a paper dust bag but just collected dirt and put it into the outer soft bag. |
Post# 300712 , Reply# 15   10/5/2014 at 15:52 (3,462 days old) by vintagevaclover (Athens, GA)   |   | |
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Just read the original thread... Wow lol. That did get kinda ugly. As far as chasing away a genius, I don't think we have to worry about that, a Kirby was not designed to be bagless. Why would you want to put some dirt cup off of a Walmart vacuum on a $1300+ vacuum? Wouldn't it destroy the great kirby filtration? The bag is part of the filtration system and if you got rid of it, wouldn't it be just like a cheap, dust covered plastivac?
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Post# 300720 , Reply# 16   10/5/2014 at 17:11 (3,461 days old) by DesiredName (Utah)   |   | |
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Post# 300739 , Reply# 17   10/5/2014 at 20:41 (3,461 days old) by vintagevaclover (Athens, GA)   |   | |
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Oh soooo true lol. Just like with any other bagless vacuum. One of the reasons people buy Kirbys, aside from quality and power is the filtration. If you had really bad allergies and paid $1300+ for a Kirby to keep them in check, why would you pay an additional $100 for a generic dirt cup and have all the dust end up in your eyes, sinuses, & lungs?
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Post# 300823 , Reply# 18   10/6/2014 at 12:08 (3,461 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
This post has been removed by the member who posted it. |
Post# 300824 , Reply# 19   10/6/2014 at 12:11 (3,461 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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Oli, Dyson's design cannot work on a Kirby. The Dyson cyclones work under negative pressure, while the Kirby system works under positive pressure. I remember reading a post here a while back where a member tried to use the Dyson cyclones on the Kirby, and blew-out the seals in the bin.
For those who want to save bags the smart way, they will make or purchase a reusable dump bag. That, or purchase a model that already uses the dump bag system (which is fine unless you have allergies or the like).
Vaclover, it used to be the complete opposite in the 1960s and 1970s. Some people would attach a an F&G conversion kit to their new Kirby. I actually like this set-up, especially for those with allergies. There is nothing wrong to it, provided you use the proper bag (such as a Convertible type C, that's right John, I'm using Hoover products on my KIRBY! ).
During the 1980s, customers could still opt for a bagless Kirby. Models Tradition-Legend II all had the dump-bag option available (although, like the '13 nozzle, few opted for it). |
Post# 300825 , Reply# 20   10/6/2014 at 12:12 (3,461 days old) by super-sweeper (KSSRC Refurbishment Center)   |   | |
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Post# 301541 , Reply# 22   10/12/2014 at 08:53 (3,455 days old) by oliveoiltinfoil (England, UK)   |   | |
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Yes, I am awear that the dyson cyclone system, like normal bagless canisters are designed to work on air being pulled through it, rather than being blown into it, but I am sure it is possible to reverse engineer the dyson cyclone system for it to work for dirty fan vacuums like the Kirbys, if someone had the time and effort to do it, which would seem pointless like a lot of us can agree on.
I still maintain there are pros and cons to bagless and indeed bagged vacuums. As much of the fact that there is dust cloud when you empty a bagless vacuum, such as my dyson which obviously is very dirty and unhygienic, dyson recommend putting a plastic bag over the container, which seems a bit pointless as the point of a bagless vacuum is that they are "bag-less". Then you have bags in bagged vacuums which the dirt can spend weeks rotting in the bag and air constantly being pumped through them, the bad odours which are can be caused, and so on. Getting back to point, this was never going to work obviously. If you didn't want a bagged vacuum, why buy a Kirby? Did anyone know if this unit voided the warranties' on the kirbys themselves ? |
Post# 301542 , Reply# 23   10/12/2014 at 09:41 (3,455 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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Post# 301543 , Reply# 24   10/12/2014 at 09:42 (3,455 days old) by sebo_fan (Scotland, UK, member AKA ukvacfan, & Nar2)   |   | |
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The whole idea of a bagless filter contraption on a vacuum cleaner reiterates what a few brands have already offered, Oli. It isn't to replace the dust bag on board COMPLETELY, but rather to offer a quick means of usage if the owner runs out of bags.
I would imagine the Keeler attachment mirrors the ill-fated "cyclonic chamber" tool that appeared in the late 2000s, sometimes given away for free with a QVC budget vacuum cleaner. I remember JML brought them out too - a mesh filter in a plastic cup that fits over the handle of the cylinder vac and the suction tube pushed in underneath - these attachments are notoriously poorly made and not many stand up to their promise because they fail to lock properly to the tubes, despite twist screw locks on either side of the attachment. A previous thread (via link) I created shows this tool and other "hopeless vacuum cleaner tools." CLICK HERE TO GO TO sebo_fan's LINK
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Post# 301592 , Reply# 27   10/12/2014 at 17:37 (3,454 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 301646 , Reply# 28   10/13/2014 at 09:27 (3,454 days old) by dysonman1 (the county)   |   | |
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It IS possible to blow the air and dust into a multi cyclonic filtration system. It's been done once and works very well. Dyson designed a dry carpet shampoo system to use Capture dry carpet shampoo, in 1989. It was called the Nova Dry. There was a fan to suck the dirt and powder from the carpet, and it blew the air and dust into the bin. The same shroud and dual cyclone were used. I have one in the collection and it works beautifully. One day, a progressive company will come out with an 8 pound upright with a dual cyclone chamber instead of a bag. Since a lot of 8 pound uprights are used commercially, this should solve bag clogging problems caused by all the asphalt dust that comes in on shoes from the parking lots.
In truth, this same design that Dyson used in 1989 could be adapted to the Kirby. But there's really no reason for it. The bag system (HEPA) on the Kirby works just fine. |
Post# 326395 , Reply# 29   6/3/2015 at 21:47 (3,220 days old) by vacmaster (San Diego)   |   | |
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Post# 326429 , Reply# 31   6/4/2015 at 18:42 (3,219 days old) by RainbowD4C (Saint Joseph, Michigan )   |   | |
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Post# 368491 , Reply# 35   3/15/2017 at 18:10 (2,569 days old) by crazykirbydude (Lexington, KY)   |   | |
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Post# 368504 , Reply# 36   3/16/2017 at 04:36 (2,569 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Now this might shock most of you, but I have plans to do my EXPERIMENTAL Bagless Kirby conversion.
Idea in this is to keep the dirt away from the filter and use large filter to maintain the airflow. IF it works I am happy, but I have to test the real airflow with my baird airflow meter. That's very important. This will keep the Kirby original (it is removable) and I will keep the bag assembly just because of the originality. Heart of this system is dust deputy cyclone (99% efficiency). Whole thing looks ugly for now, but if it's worth to keep it will be black. I still wait for the cyclone to arrive so let's see... Please watch the videos Can't wait for the comments :) |
Post# 368551 , Reply# 37   3/17/2017 at 08:08 (2,568 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Post# 368571 , Reply# 38   3/17/2017 at 19:23 (2,567 days old) by sptyks (Skowhegan, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 368606 , Reply# 39   3/18/2017 at 10:15 (2,567 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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This was what I was expecting to be commented and fair so.
This is not ruining the Kirby. The bag assembly still remains. It's easy to convert back. This is experimental test to do a bagless conversion what has true high efficiency cyclone with the big airflow capacity. Dust Deputy is rated to handle up to 150 cfm airflow. Effciency is over 99 percent. Note that it will be only attached to the Kirby air outlet so it's very easy and quick to remove. My goal is to show that you can have a good bagless conversion that will put Keelers conversion to shame. Like earlier commented Keelers system has fast clogging tiny filter what kill the airfow. My plan is to avoid it. I would still recall that it is quickly removable and if some reason it doesnt work. |
Post# 368609 , Reply# 40   3/18/2017 at 10:33 (2,567 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 368621 , Reply# 41   3/18/2017 at 15:37 (2,567 days old) by kirbylux77 (London, Ontario, Canada)   |   | |
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Stan - Actually, I don't think this is such a bad idea at all. The main fault with the Keeler bagless conversion was the fact it had a clogging filter in the middle. This idea, with the filter being outside the dirt cup on top, looks like it might work well. Now what remains to be seen is how much dust & dirt actually get to the filter.
Rob |
Post# 368625 , Reply# 42   3/18/2017 at 16:05 (2,567 days old) by sebo4me (Cardiff)   |   | |
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Post# 368635 , Reply# 43   3/18/2017 at 18:31 (2,566 days old) by Mike811 (Finland)   |   | |
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Yes it is ugly, but dimension in the picture are wrong and it's going to be black. So let's hope it will look decent.
Oneida Air Systems has spent a lot of research and testing to get it separating the best possible way. But now I just have to test it with the Kirby. In the link separation efficiency. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mike811's LINK |